Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 2010)

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Vayutuvan
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Vayutuvan »

Paging the founder of foundation :-)

NightWatch For the night of 25 April 2012
United Kingdom: For the record. The British economy slid into recession, Reuters reported 25 April. The British Office for National Statistics said gross domestic product fell 0.2 percent in the first quarter of 2012 after falling 0.3 percent in the final quarter of 2011.


Comment: Prepare for turbulence in financial markets.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^ Hard times bring out the best worst in people, banks, countries...

I fully expect a more open and brazen descent into criminality on part of the Briturd 'rashtra'. Here's one Amreekan example of how wachovia (now Wells fargo) laundered drug money and got merely a rap on the knuckles when caught:-
How a big US bank laundered billions from Mexico's murderous drug gangs

The civilized swiss use murderously obtained monies to finance their cute and shiny lifestyles in the swiss alps. Expect the briturds to pull all stops on the way to financing their own lifestyles now via shady finance at its worst....if they haven't already.

Again, standard disclaimers apply. IMVHOs, JMTPs etc.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhischekcc »

Hari,

This was the guy who headed Wachovia during those years (2000 to 2008) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Kennedy_Thompson
Thompson previously served as president of the Federal Reserve Board's Federal Advisory Committee
:wink:
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^ Whocuddanode, eh?

BTW, its safe to assume that the great financial crisis (GFC) has now been almost safely managed by the powers that be in the central banks of the world. And that *is* a welcome thing coz regardless of how much we may like to rail against the system in the comfy environs of online fora, the very real disruption to (alas, sadly even) our little lives and to those of little people like us all over the world from a disorderly unraveling of the current system is perhaps more than any of us would bargain for. Been a long journey for me in the past few yrs to come to actually cheer the 'green shoots recovery' but there it is...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

This week has been an intersting week to say the least as far as europe is concerned.

It started off with Francois Hollande, the leading contender for French President, announcing that he will not ratify the "fiscal compact", which seeks to enshrine into Euro-Zone constitutions the maximum level of debt that a country can have. Francois Hollande also said that he will sit with Merkel, the german chancellor, and discuss means to boost growth.

Francois Hollande's position was somewhat supported by the ECB president, who called on Euro zone nations to undertake fiscal reforms and concentrate on growth rather than austerity alone.

The Germans realizing that opposition to their prescription of austerity and more austerity is growing, sought not to swim against the tide. Merkel, the german chancellor said that she is all for growth, but through structural reforms. i.e. old wine, old bottle, just the label is new. It was left to one of the German officials to clarify that Germany would be fine with Stimulus, but not with government-debt-driven growth strategy, which would load more debt onto Government balance sheets. So germany might be agreeable to financing say a Berlin to Athens autobahn/expressway which is done by private companies. But it will not agree to Government issuing more bonds/debt and then spending that money.

Offcourse german refusal to take part in collective bond issue, in which all the countries of Euro-Zone would jointly issue and guarantee bonds is well known.

On the other side, it looks like Britain went into recession. Spain failed to meet its obligations to keep its debt under control, and now will have a budget deficit exceeding 5%. In Greece, the love affair of Greek citizens and the EURO continues as usual. The Greeks seem very reluctant to leave euro, partially because of its history of Drachma, where the currency was shamelessly debasement by its politicians. The Greek debasement of their currency, i.e. Drachma, has a parallel with our country too, with our politicians readily allowing the rupee to sink. We in India are too running a deficit which is parallel to spain's deficit in numbers and figures. If we observe closely, many of the actions which the greek/spanish/italian government undertook are being replayed by our own ruling class.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SriKumar »

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^ Whocuddanode, eh?

BTW, its safe to assume that the great financial crisis (GFC) has now been almost safely managed by the powers that be in the central banks of the world.
So, the $800 billion question (to my mind anyway) is how come the inflation is not up in a major way? There were many predictions of even hyper-inflation with all the money that the GoTUS pumped into the economy but no signs of that so far. Why?

One answer I hear is that most of the TARP money was used to shore up the cash reserves of banks and insurance companies so that their balance sheets look healthier (and they can start lending again). As a result, a lot of the TARP money did not enter the circulation. Does this explanation account for all of the money infused? Somehow, it seems incomplete but I am not an expert.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by VikramS »

Inflation is a monetary phenomenon. Right now the velocity of money is low. There is an AEP article talking about falling M2 globally. As long as those deflationary trends stay in place inflation will not go up. Once things start returning to normal, it will then be unleashed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-2 ... -baum.html

Right now we are seeing inflation in commodities. Crude oil does not want to stay below $100 in spite of muted global growth. Gold/Silver etc. are all nicely up from 2008.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

x-post from PRC khanomy dhaga.

More masala from AEP. TIFWIW.

China’s property boom has peaked, forever

Well, AEP has been a China-bear and the fact that PRC hasn't collapsed into recession yet goes against his record, I guess.

Anyway, some ge(r)ms:
Land sales make up 30pc of total tax revenue for the central government and 70pc for local government. (For those of us who watched the Irish state balloon on the back of property taxes – when they had a fat budget surplus – this has a familiar ring.)

Construction makes up 10pc of total jobs, and a further 20pc indirectly in cement, steel, metallurgy etc. The government is building 36m homes for the poor, but that will start to run down in two years or so.

Residential investment typically peaks at 8pc to 9pc of GDP for emerging nations during their catch-up growth spurts. It is already 12pc in China.

Japan’s ratio peaked in 1973, long before the property price bubble burst. China has almost certainly peaked too on this crucial measure.

The minimum down-payment rate on mortgages is 30pc, so leverage is in theory low. (How this can be the case when the IMF says that the house price to incomes ratio is 16 to 18 times in the Eastern cities of Beijing, Tinajing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, and Guangzhou has long been a mystery).
Yada yada. Sound familiar?
A week ago I heard a talk at the ChunQiu Institute in London by Nobel laureate Edmund Phelps (one of the truly great Nobel economists who first debunked "Keynesian" misuse of the growth/unemployment trade-off or Phillips Curve and has devoted the last part of his academic life to trying to understand China).

His view is that China has already reached the point where it can no longer offset soaring wage costs with productivity gains imported through Western technology. It has hit the time-honoured wall. Diminishing returns are setting in, and there lies the "middle-income trap" that ensnares most challengers.
More yada yada. I recall such dire prophecies made in 2007 as well.
Be that as it may, Xianfang Ren said China has the means to bail out the banking system and property market in this cycle, and will use them if need be. "Housing is way too important to allow a hard landing."

These include deposits (170pc of GDP), government revenues (30pc), the assets of state behemoths (75pc), foreign reserves (50pc) of GDP – I don’t agree on this last point since the FX reserves cannot be repatriated without a big currency rise and a shock for exporters. It would amount to monetary tightening.
Yawn.
"At first sight China looks fine. Unfortunately, there is a big problem of misclassification of loans. The financial system has much larger exposure to real estate than appears, and the weak links are the real estate trusts and non-bank lending. The smaller developers are cash-flow constrained and will find it hard to roll over debts. Any defaults will have to be recognised immediately."
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Japan's property market peaked in the late 1980s, when rent and cost of certain land in Tokyo surpassed that of Manhattan. So high were the valuations of Japanese real estate that it became feasible for certain companies to plan for space cities and stations, by leveraging the land prices. By that time Japan had become a middle income nation and its population had peaked. Japan's working age population would start its decline soon afterwards. China is no where near that state.

China has still some bubbles to blow up. What I would really like to speculate would be on how big the Chinese bubble would get? And would it deflate with a bang like the Japanese and the current Mortgage-Backed-Securities driven bubble burst or will it be a slow process spreading out a period of years and possibly decade.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

VikramS wrote:Inflation is a monetary phenomenon. Right now the velocity of money is low. There is an AEP article talking about falling M2 globally. As long as those deflationary trends stay in place inflation will not go up. Once things start returning to normal, it will then be unleashed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-2 ... -baum.html

Right now we are seeing inflation in commodities. Crude oil does not want to stay below $100 in spite of muted global growth. Gold/Silver etc. are all nicely up from 2008.
The commodity prices are set at the trading where speculation and hedge fund money are driving the prices.
The hedge funds are in a mad scamble for returns and dont see it anywhere since inflation is low.

We have one example of a fund trying to get into VC funding of our portfolio company.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SriKumar »

VikramS wrote:Inflation is a monetary phenomenon. Right now the velocity of money is low. There is an AEP article talking about falling M2 globally. As long as those deflationary trends stay in place inflation will not go up. Once things start returning to normal, it will then be unleashed.
I think I get the gist of the above; however, when the TARP emergency release of funds was made, the refrain from Wall St. and D.C. was that without banks lending to the small businesses, individual consumers etc., most or all economic activity would freeze/stop.The unsaid implication was that the banks had to keep lending for the day-to-day economic activty to take place, meaning money has to flow from banks to businsses to people to industry etc. It was made out to be an emergency situation.

But now, 4 years later, the unprecedented amount of TARP money injected into the banks has not inflated the prices much. How come? Could the reason(s) be that either the money mostly stayed in the banks and was never lent out, OR, if indeed it was lent out to small businesses, consumers etc., the amounts were not large enough to inflate (since this category of money, IMHO, should come into circulation fairly quickly and start to inflate prices).

>There is an AEP article talking about falling M2 globally.
If I understand the point you are making, the increase in circulating currency from TARP was offset by a drop in currency supply due to some other causes? I quickly scanned this article but could not determine what caused any drop in money/currency supply post-2008.

On a related note, a comment I had heard about the relative lack of inflation is that much of the US economy (3/4ths?) is based on consumer spending, and the consumer has been very skittish about spending anything for a while. In addition, a lot of consumers are now unemployed. This would definitely decrease circulation of currency in the economy and keep inflation under control.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Theo_Fidel »

I don't get it, wasn't UK supposed to be poster child of the conservative slash the budget and everything gets better argument.

Just 6 months ago everyone was praising the poodle to the sky while making fun of USA.

What happened.
----------------------------

Inflation in USA is down due to China.
--------------------------------
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

SriKumar wrote:
VikramS wrote:Inflation is a monetary phenomenon. Right now the velocity of money is low. There is an AEP article talking about falling M2 globally. As long as those deflationary trends stay in place inflation will not go up. Once things start returning to normal, it will then be unleashed.
I think I get the gist of the above; however, when the TARP emergency release of funds was made, the refrain from Wall St. and D.C. was that without banks lending to the small businesses, individual consumers etc., most or all economic activity would freeze/stop.The unsaid implication was that the banks had to keep lending for the day-to-day economic activty to take place, meaning money has to flow from banks to businsses to people to industry etc. It was made out to be an emergency situation.

But now, 4 years later, the unprecedented amount of TARP money injected into the banks has not inflated the prices much. How come? Could the reason(s) be that either the money mostly stayed in the banks and was never lent out, OR, if indeed it was lent out to small businesses, consumers etc., the amounts were not large enough to inflate (since this category of money, IMHO, should come into circulation fairly quickly and start to inflate prices).
The inflation in commodity prices, for example oil crossing $ 100 a barrel, the cost of gold touching new highs, all are the consequence of the injection of cash into the US financial world. Previously there was a yen-carry trade. Traders borrowed in yen, which was for practical purpose at zero interest rate and speculated widely. The interest rates rose in Japan, before fukushima and they fell in US. The Yen-carry trade got converted to Dollar-carry trade.

Moreover the period of easy lending is over in US. US banks have tightened the noose on lending standards. They were after all burnt heavily by giving out NINJA loans and depending only on the appreciation of the asset value for loan servicing.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by VikramS »

Acharyaji

When paper currency is behind debased investment money will seek hard assets and that what has been happening. It is a simple question of balancing the excess supply of paper money by reducing the amount of hard assets it can purchase. That is why they call inflation a monetary phenomenon.

Srikumar
There is something called the shadow banking system created by the use of credit derivatives. The supply of these AAA rated credit securities was unlimited since they were derivatives and literally created by a bunch of lawyers sitting in the big IBs. They could be financed with 5% down and the rest could be borrowed since they were AAA rated. That market has collapsed and that contribution to the money supply gone.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... -it/21038/
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SriKumar »

C.Sidor/VikramS, thanks for the responses. About the shadow banking system, I assume you (VS) refer to the market of credit default swaps (CDS) and synthetic CDOs (CDS+mortgage bonds). Yes...the market collapsed; as far as I can tell, the ones who lost were the ones who bought the mortgage bonds and CDOs based on mortgage bonds- the purchasers lost and the sellers gained, in equal amounts I presume (would this change the money supply?).

Institutions like A.I.G. who originated the credit default swaps on mortgage bonds/CDOs would have lost big since they issued multiple bets (unlimited, as you put it) made on the same set of mortgage bonds via the CDSs they sold. I assume they would have gone bankrupt if they had to honor all their CDS's. The resultant infusion of TARP cash into AIG and other originators of CDS's (to pay out on the credit default swaps once the basic instrument e.g. mortgage bonds, went bad ) would have increased the monetary supply in circulation- to the extent they paid out on their CDS's. To my (limited) view, I see this as the source for 'new' cash to flow into the system.
Last edited by SriKumar on 03 May 2012 03:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

Please critique these two opposing points:


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 938861.cms

TIMES VIEW-COUNTERVIEW

Ruchir Sharma’s new book gives India a 50:50 chance to emerge as a breakout nation

May 1, 2012, 12.00AM IST

TIMES VIEW: Economic miracle will come

The new book Breakout Nations, by Morgan Stanley head of emerging markets Ruchir Sharma, has got analysts buzzing over the future of the Indian economy. Sharma contends that the possibility of India growing at a brisk and sustained pace in future is only 50:50. Such an analysis is fuelled by undue pessimism due to the current phase of low growth, persisting inflation, policy paralysis, innumerable corruption scams and so on.

Apparently, India’s political class can never get it together for the economy to deliver the goods. But this is only on the surface. The India story is not over yet, and the country hasn’t shifted permanently to a lower gear. In fact, it’s precisely the present crisis that has triggered a necessary debate about reforms, one that the country was not having earlier.

The economic history of the country shows that it is very much capable of reform. The liberalisation policies of 1991, brought on by the balance-of-payments crisis, are a case in point. Similarly, the reforms initiated during the second phase of the NDA regime allowed for high growth during the first tenure of the UPA dispensation. Besides, there are several factors in India’s favour. As Sharma points out, the country’s low per capita income allows greater headroom for growth. Add to this India’s growing middle class and large youth population, and there’s no doubt that the country’s demographic fundamentals are favourable for a sustained growth spurt. All that is required to catalyse the available resources are market-oriented reforms that incentivise competition, bring in FDI, observe fiscal prudence and invest in critical infrastructure. Aspirations have exploded across the country - thanks in no small part also to the information revolution - and the genie cannot be put back in the bottle any longer.

COUNTERVIEW: India growth story is over

Ajay Vaishnav

Given the sluggishness of the Indian economy over the last couple of years, there would be few takers for India making it into the ranks of "breakout nation" category. It is naive to hope that India can post a turnaround on the back of sustained and systematic economic reforms. Rather the country’s chances of getting into an economic slump are high considering policy paralysis, political uncertainty, coalition compulsions, an anti-reforms mindset and corrupt governance. For starters, the country’s much-touted growth story has fizzled out.

The Indian economy being the world’s talking point is by now yesterday’s story. It may have posted a growth rate of 8.4% in 2010, but this had slumped to 6.1% by the last quarter of 2011. More worryingly, the fiscal deficit climbed to 5.9% of GDP in 2011-12. Oil prices are set to rise further. But the government cannot dare to pass on the rising cost to the consumer because of coalition compulsions, which will make the fiscal deficit balloon further and leave a great deal of suppressed inflation in the system. That coalition politics has stymied reforms and growth was highlighted by none other than the government’s chief economic adviser in Washington.

It’s easier said than done to address India’s economic problems. Not only does the blame rest with fractious allies and an unrelenting opposition, the Congress too accorded low priority to economic reforms. The governing party’s sole focus has been social spending, without caring much about revenue generation. But even if the UPA loses the next Lok Sabha election, the polity is too fragmented for a cohesive government to take shape in future. Many countries haven’t had an economic miracle, there’s no reason to believe India will.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Please critique these two opposing points:
As Sharma points out, the country’s low per capita income allows greater headroom for growth. Add to this India’s growing middle class and large youth population, and there’s no doubt that the country’s demographic fundamentals are favourable for a sustained growth spurt. All that is required to catalyse the available resources are market-oriented reforms that incentivise competition, bring in FDI, observe fiscal prudence and invest in critical infrastructure. Aspirations have exploded across the country - thanks in no small part also to the information revolution - and the genie cannot be put back in the bottle any longer.
This is basics and all countries which moved from this stage have raised the std of living. ASEAN countries are the example.

Rather the country’s chances of getting into an economic slump are high considering policy paralysis, political uncertainty, coalition compulsions, an anti-reforms mindset and corrupt governance. For starters, the country’s much-touted growth story has fizzled out.
That coalition politics has stymied reforms and growth was highlighted by none other than the government’s chief economic adviser in Washington.
But even if the UPA loses the next Lok Sabha election, the polity is too fragmented for a cohesive government to take shape in future. Many countries haven’t had an economic miracle, there’s no reason to believe India will.

For a country with young population this is incorrect assumption. He is only talking about politics which cleans itself out in the long run.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Growth is not very complicated.

You save money, you invest and improve worker productivity and innovation you grow rich. These things are linked together.

Absence of any one dooms you.
---------------------------------------------------

What I would like some info on is the idea that without the investor (risk taking) class there is no wealth. This Conrad is such a tool but the wealthy are skimming of all the worker productivity growth for the past 30 years in USA. Now he wants more.

What he does not says is that if you don't reward workers well, they might as become art history majors or drop out of employment permanently as is happening in Massaland.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/magaz ... ral&src=me
---------------------------------------------------------

USA labor force participation rate is now lower than in the 1970's. Most of this decline happened during the Bush years when rich were getting richer. When the tide only lifts 1% of the boats what is the point of boating.

Image
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

Big Maconomics: How McDonald's Explains the World
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ld/256431/
For thousands of years, families devoted the majority of their lives to food. Their waking hours were spent growing and harvesting crops, and most of their income from growing and harvesting went right back into eating. Deep into the late pre-industrial era, unskilled laborers worked grueling hours in fields to earn an income that could often barely feed their family. As Gregory Clark explained in his book A Farewell to Alms, up until the 1700s, the English diet consisted, monotonously, of mostly bread and beer, won only after hours that would make a modern i-banker blush. Food output per person was so meager that "British farm laborers by 1863 had just reached the median consumption of [primitive] forager and subsistence societies."Today, food is faster. The Big Mac takes very little work for any one person. It is a product of as much automated manufacturing as human labor. Even U.S. food-prep workers, by some measures the poorest-paid major occupation in America, earn enough to buy more than two Big Macs -- that's 1,000+ calories -- in just an hour of their work.

The Rise of the West. Countries get rich because they become particularly skilled in certain industries that they can sell in exchange for money.The gap between poor and rich nations has bedeviled economists for decades. But one elegant explanation, known as the Balassa-Samuelson hypothesis, says it comes down to worker productivity in sectors that can "trade" their goods and services abroad. If a country gets better at making, say, cars, it can sell cars to foreigners and become rich. As income and investment flow into a country, incomes and prices rise across the board. People have more money to buy burgers. The price of burgers rises, and the price of workers who prepare those burgers rises too.Ashenfelter finds evidence for this elegant theory in his data, which demonstrates that developed countries, including the US, Canada, Japan, and Western Europe have similar wages for McDonald's workers -- they can all buy between two and three Big Macs with each hour of work.
The Rise of the Rest: For the last few decades, real income growth has been flat in the U.S. and other developed countries. Manufacturing and other middle class jobs went overseas and fed rising living standards in other countries. McDonald's can tell this story, too.
Wage growth was "entirely confined to the developing countries of Russia, India, and China during the period 2000‐2007," Ashenfelter writes. This graph shows percentage-growth in Big Macs-per-hour-of-work in the last decade. It's a striking picture of flat purchasing-power growth in the developed world juxtaposed to a gosh-wow boom out of China, India and Russia (which started the decade in a recession and got a big lift from oil prices through 2007). Upshot: It's not just top-line GDP that's growing in the developed world. The wealth is trickling down. Middle-class families can buy more for each hour of work.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by pgbhat »

Wealthy Americans queue up to surrender US passports in Bern
About 1,780 expatriates gave up their nationality at US embassies last year, up from 235 in 2008, according to Andy Sundberg, secretary of Geneva's Overseas American Academy, citing figures from the government's Federal Register. The embassy in Bern, the Swiss capital, redeployed staff to clear a backlog as Americans queued to relinquish their passports.
The US, the only nation in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development that taxes citizens wherever they reside, is searching for tax cheats in offshore centers, including Switzerland, as the government tries to curb the budget deficit. Shunned by Swiss and German banks and facing tougher asset-disclosure rules under the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, more of the estimated 6 million Americans living overseas are weighing the cost of holding a US passport.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by paramu »

merica turning from OWNERSHIP society to RENTER's Society- A revolution occurring in American Economy!


According to Moody's, by late 2011 it was cheaper to rent than to own in 72% of American metropolitan areas, up from 54% a decade ago
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'...Take cars. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says that private transportation—owning and running a car—is the second largest cost for a typical American household, accounting for 16% of expenditures. Factoring in finance costs, depreciation, repairs, insurance, taxes and gas, AAA calculates that an owner of a midsize sedan who drives 15,000 miles a year spends $8,588 a year on his car.

Enter auto-sharing firm Zipcar. Founded in 2000, it grew by focusing on cities and college campuses. It uses information technology to manage its fleet, and control access—people get cards that let them into garages where cars are kept and into the cars themselves. Users in New York pay a $60 annual fee and then $8.75 per hour on weekdays and $13.75 per hour on weekends—no extra charge for gas or insurance or miles..

Interesting article in WSJ
More@
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... TopStories
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

the idea is fine. but the pattern of housing needs to collapse back into dense cities and surrounding 'new urbanist' areas connected by good bus and rail routes. american spends next to nothing on building up good bus and rail infra due to automobile lobbies. only when the mcsuburbs are abandoned and allowed to be reclaimed by the farm and forest it might be feasible.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Christopher Sidor »

We save a lot. In fact Indians save in excess of 20% of their earnings. So capital formation cannot be an impediment for our sluggish growth. So what is exactly keeping India behind? One of the cause is our ruling system. Most of our population, i.e. excess of 60%, resides in rural areas. Our poor predominantly reside in villages and towns. Now these are exactly the people who vote the most. I have observed that the middle class generally does not go to vote. This should be kept in mind when we talk about the "Shinning India" debacle of NDA-era.

So our politicians tend to focus the policies on garnering the rural vote. For example consider the case of Debt-relief/waivers done by UPA-I. This makes for good sound bites and UPA politicians can wrap themselves in a halo. But the problem is that these do not address structural issues at large. Despite the Debt relief/waiver, our agriculture is not on a sustainable path. Farmers are paid too less, the cost of the vegetables paid by normal households is too high. It is the middle men who eat up most of the profits and where the most price increase takes place. Further it is here that most of the wastage occurs.

Our petroleum subsidy bill is unsustainable. Especially for a country which imports some 80% of its crude. Consider the cost of petrol and diesel in India. Now try to locate any other country where petrol and diesel prices are so much skewed. We have not been able to keep pace with the electricity demand. It took an Indian PSU 6 months to get permission from a Group of ministers, which had 7 members, to buy a energy asset outside India. By that time, the asset was sold to some other foreigner. We have mastered the 3-stage nuclear cycle, but have not invested enough in building nuclear reactors. The list goes on and on. I live in a city which has 12 hours of power cuts. When Karunanidhi became the CM of TN, TN was the only state in southern India, which had a surplus of 4,000 MW. Power cuts were rare in Chennai and other parts. After 10 years of DMK rule, the situation in TN was that there was a deficit in excess of 3000 MW.

Our government is running a budget deficit in excess of 5%. The problem with this is that every rupee borrowed by the GoI or state government, is one rupee denied to the private sector. And our competitive advantage is being eroded very fast. In the past 2 years we have seen the cost of IT professionals from India being undercut by Eastern European and East Asian nations, sometimes in excess of 50%. So for example if the cost of an Indian IT professional comes out to be $1 per hour, in case of certain East European and East Asian nation, it is coming out to be 48-50 cents per hour.

We can be a break out nation. But our wounds are self inflicted. Let us not look outside. The things that hold us back are our own creation. We truly are what Naipul described us as, "A Wounded civilization"
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhischekcc »

I have mentioned this before: The elephant in the room as far as saving the environment is concerned is west's lifestyle. Their standard of living HAS to be brought down if humanity is to survive this century.

Western civilization is a malignant tumour. The more people adopt their lifestyle, the more this planet comes near the edge of the precipice.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

+1 sir. there is not enough energy in the sun to suffice if everyone started using as much energy and resources as the americans and canadians.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Singha wrote:+1 sir. there is not enough energy in the sun to suffice if everyone started using as much energy and resources as the americans and canadians.
+1.

Esp. if it done by borrowing. To be honest Americans can't afford to consume as much as they do. They can't afford to live in 4,000 sqft cardboard boxes with heating/cooling bills of $1,200 per month. Yet they borrow the money to make it happen.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vic »

As West is printing currency, India and China will have to bite the bullet to let their currency appreciate otherwise we will face massive inflation and our assets will be taken over in return for paper.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vishvak »

vic wrote:As West is printing currency, India and China will have to bite the bullet to let their currency appreciate otherwise we will face massive inflation and our assets will be taken over in return for paper.
Are assets from the first world open to purchase by foreign wealth funds?

Chinese have not bought off a lot of important first world European/USA assets over last 10 years.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Bade »

From Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_ ... 8energy%29
1.4×10^19 J yearly electricity consumption in the U.S. as of 2009[139][152]
1.4×10^19 J yearly electricity production in the U.S. as of 2009[153][154]

6.4×10^19 J yearly electricity consumption of the world as of 2008[155][156]
6.8×10^19 J yearly electricity generation of the world as of 2008[155][157]

5.0x10^20 J total world annual energy consumption in 2010

1.5×10^22 J total energy from the Sun that strikes the face of the Earth each day[145][166]
2.4×10^22 J estimated energy contained in the world's coal reserves as of 2010[158][167]
2.9×10^22 J identified global uranium-238 resources using fast reactor technology[160]
3.9×10^22 J estimated energy contained in the world's fossil fuel reserves as of 2010[158][168]

4×10^22 J estimated total energy released by the magnitude 9.1-9.3 2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake[169]
there is not enough energy in the sun to suffice if everyone started using as much energy and resources as the americans and canadians.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhischekcc »

And how are you going to harvest all that bounty? Cover the earth with solar panels?

Maybe there is enough energy, but it cannot be reached.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhischekcc »

vishvak wrote:
vic wrote:As West is printing currency, India and China will have to bite the bullet to let their currency appreciate otherwise we will face massive inflation and our assets will be taken over in return for paper.
Are assets from the first world open to purchase by foreign wealth funds?

Chinese have not bought off a lot of important first world European/USA assets over last 10 years.
None.

The free market propogandists in Washington do not like it when colored people beat them at their own game.

Remember US rejection of Chinese attempts to buy Unocal.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by vishvak »

abhischekcc wrote:
vishvak wrote: Are assets from the first world open to purchase by foreign wealth funds?

Chinese have not bought off a lot of important first world European/USA assets over last 10 years.
None.

The free market propogandists in Washington do not like it when colored people beat them at their own game.

Remember US rejection of Chinese attempts to buy Unocal.
So where do all the big-time buyers turn to? I wonder. Per richest investment banker Warren Buffet link
the nation’s lenders have “liquidity coming out of their ears” and are in better shape than European rivals.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Bade »

abhischekcc wrote:And how are you going to harvest all that bounty? Cover the earth with solar panels?

Maybe there is enough energy, but it cannot be reached.
That would require ingenuity for sure, but if you want to be the top dog then you will have to invent on how to do it.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SaiK »

regulations and taxes can help.

Just like must have water harvesting..
every house must have solar panels for lightings and other non critical applications.

I think nano technology and next generation batteries can help storing the solar power for the night. Not sure, how much of it causes reverse global warming effect in terms of factories building those batteries etc.

There was a nano-technology based on plant-power unit (converting light to electricity via chlorophyl mimics).

so that even huts can those sheets to cover them, and provide light.

but, cost effective solution is always SDRE one.

Tapping moons H3 is a big game actually. more sustained power for the future.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Theo_Fidel »

We could possibly scrounge up the electricity required. But what about the liquid fuels or transportation. What about the resources needed, from copper to iron to phosphate fertilizer. That is my begger concern.

Even WRT electricity it will have to be some form of Nuclear breeder or Solar/Wind. All others are pitifully inadequate, including u-235 cycle and coal has its own sustainability problem. My bet right now would be coal followed by Solar. If we are going to get rich we will have to manage that transition well. All else is maya, et al....

A few months ago I did a rough calculation that showed that investing in Solar at the rate of $10 Billion annually increasing to $25 Billion by 2035 would get us enough capacity to do it using less than 1 percent of our land. But we would need to work on the storage mechanism, from molten salt to pumped storage to compressed air.

Still doesn't deal with first world resource consumption levels.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Abhijeet »

I disagree with the Malthusian forecasts of how there isn't enough energy to go around. Sure, the days of driving 50 miles to work in a Hummer are limited, if they ever existed. But I don't foresee any scenario in which the rich world is going to have to significantly lower their standard of living. Human ingenuity will instead find a way to make that much energy available to the 5/6ths of the world's population that currently lives in subhuman conditions.

It's just schadenfreude to imagine -- or want -- otherwise.

It's perfectly possible for everyone on the planet to have a standard of living comparable to that in Western Europe -- densely populated, great public transport and infrastructure, small cars etc.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by SaiK »

Well, in desh it is below stds, where as in maasa is above and wasted energy levels all the way. We are two extreme nations on the planet diametrically oppostive to requirements, needs, wants, hygiene, basics, quality of life, etc. Again, we here is not us.. but we at aam large where the mind is below any thinking levels, but under pressure of survival.

There are natural solutions to all problems.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

So now that Sarkozy is defeated and the Greeks have spoken whats the prognosis?
- Now Germany stands alone in seeking euro consolidation
- There will be default(s). Only who?
- Who gets imapcted by the potential default(s)?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Suraj »

More quantitative easing / LRTO coming. The Europeans elections showed that they prefer to kick the can down the road rather than accept Germanic austerity. Even PRC has backed off from funding the Eurozone through bond purchases after losing money there.
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