Indian Railways Thread

[krisna]

^^^^
And to boot, he addressed harvard and wharton and other ivy leagues students.
wonder what these so called ivy leagues are made up of.

[Aditya_V]

^^^^
And to boot, he addressed harvard and wharton and other ivy leagues students.
wonder what these so called ivy leagues are made up of.

Simple perception is always better than reality and pushing paper makes more money these days than real manufacturing.

[Vipul]

Add to the fact that Lalu manipulated the books to show that Railway was running in profit. The railway was already bleeding at that time.

Exactly. The "Lalu magic" has now started showing its true colours. If I get it right Lalu had tweaked the books to show the pension corpus in the railways as an "asset". It should have been a provision for liability as these funds would get distributed to the railway work force when they retire.

Not to speak of the Overloading of Wagons that he introduced to meet Freight targets, this concept has now been institutionalised and the damage it has done to the rolling stock/tracks is something which will be a very big financial drag in the years to come.

[Theo_Fidel]

So what did DIDI do anything to cause the present collapse or is is she still using Laloo accounting. How did railways go from operating ration of 78 to 96 so rapidly.

[Rahul M]

6th pay commission.

[gunjur]

India agrees to be part of Trans-Asian Railway Network

The railways initially needs about Rs 3,000 crore to start the project linking about 97 km new rail connection between Jiribam and Tupul (Manipur) in the first phase. As per the approved plan, the Indian Railways will build about 350 km new route between India and Myanmar

Under the approved plan, the project aims at connecting 28 countries through rail link. The countries likely to be linked include India, China, Myanmar, Thailand, Singapore, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Russia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Bulgaria, Mongolia, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal, sources said, adding that Patna happens to be one the routes of this project.

This also says

will help India keep a close watch on the growing influence of China,

Any idea as to how??

[SBajwa]

British had exclusive rights to the port of Calcutta and Madras where they created two armies., later they got Bombay as part of the Dowry from Portugal (who kept holding Goa).

So! British needed raw material to transport to England and for that purpose they built railway lines from North India to the ports of Calcutta, Bombay and Madras., Delhi was the central place to route this traffic.

The most important ports in India Surat and Calicut/Kozhikhode/, Vishakapatnam were also connected to this grid.

The main reason for this grid was
1. Trade of raw material to england.
2. Transport of Armies and armament (wars of Afghanistan, first world war, second world war, middle east wars, african wars, etc).

[SBajwa]

Now in Modern India we need

1. Transport of Good in an efficient manner (Wheat to Kerala and Pepper to Punjab) in an efficient manner.
2. Transport of people in an efficient manner (Kashmir to Kanya Kumari and Rajasthan to Manipur)

The best possible way to accomplish 1. and 2. is to improve the railways.

[Vipul]

Railway's newly-designed 5500 horse power diesel locomotive "Bheem" ready to roll out.

With an aim of hauling heavier trains, railways is ready to roll out a newly-designed 5500 horse power (HP) diesel locomotive equipped with all modern features including 100 km per hour running speed.Aptly named as " Bheem", the high horse power locomotive is currently undergoing safety trial. Manufactured at Diesel Locomotive Works at Varanasi, the prototype has cost about Rs 17 crore to the railways.

Railways have 4500 HP diesel locos for freight operation and with the induction of "Bheem", the carrying capacity will increase substantially," said a senior Railway Ministry official, adding "railways will manufacture 15 such locomotives in the current fiscal."

Railways have set a loading target of 1025 million tonnes for 2012-13, 55 MT more than the last fiscal.

Designed jointly by the Railways and EMD, a US-based company, the locomotive has a provision of toilet for crew, a first in railways.

"It has been been designed to set up new standards for crew comfort and safety. Among others the locomotive is fuel efficient as it is equipped with electronic fuel injection and emission control system. Besides it has heated ventilation air conditioning, collision protection system and an ergonomically designed driver seat," the official said. The locomotive comes with a huge fuel capacity of 7500 litres to provide long runs without refuelling.

[Singha]

looks like a version of the one EMD built for china railways. it mentions driver cabin comfort and toilet. chinese model is 6000hp.
http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/jt56ace.jsp
pix here in china plant http://www.emd-china.com.cn/company/com ... china.html

[Singha]

or it could be they upsized one of our existing locos to fit the EMD engine, cab and transmission

[Zynda]

I think WDG5 is based on different design with increased driver comfort and first Indian loco to comply with crash regulations. There is a pic of the loco on IRFCA website gallery section (supposed to be removed in a few days though). Loco is not a dual cab like Chinese version...single cab. Very loosely looks like existing GT46MAC product (less aerodynamic front-end).

[chetak]

I think WDG5 is based on different design with increased driver comfort and first Indian loco to comply with crash regulations. There is a pic of the loco on IRFCA website gallery section (supposed to be removed in a few days though). Loco is not a dual cab like Chinese version...single cab. Very loosely looks like existing GT46MAC product (less aerodynamic front-end).

Among others like RDSO and DLW, the WDG5 has also had inputs from the Electro-Motive Diesel Inc.

In a new first for the Indian Railways, this baby also boasts an attached toilet.

[Sachin]

In a new first for the Indian Railways, this baby also boasts an attached toilet.

Hope this is not the "hole on the floor" kind of toilets we have in the passenger coaches . BTW I always wondered how the drivers managed without toilets this far. But one thing if I am not mistaken their actual "driving time" is around 4-6 hours shift, with at least a break for 2 hours. Does any one have any idea on whether Locos in the western countries also boast of a toilet in the loco cabin?

[chetak]

In a new first for the Indian Railways, this baby also boasts an attached toilet.

Hope this is not the "hole on the floor" kind of toilets we have in the passenger coaches . BTW I always wondered how the drivers managed without toilets this far. But one thing if I am not mistaken their actual "driving time" is around 4-6 hours shift, with at least a break for 2 hours. Does any one have any idea on whether Locos in the western countries also boast of a toilet in the loco cabin?

I imagine that the Indian Railways drivers would spread out their favorite edition of the express newspaper on the floor of the cabin and do the dirty.

[Aditya_V]

4-6 hours, then no.2 one can manage, I guess for No.1 stand at the side of moving engine and let the fountain flow I guess.

[Theo_Fidel]

IIRC the WDG-5 has been worked on for 3-4 years at least with EMD based on one of their 6000 HP designs. The increased power comes from using 20 Cylinder engine vs the 16 cylinder one the WDG-4 uses. Historically there have been problems with that 20 Cylinder engine as it is very powerful compared to the Chassis. Also things were done to squeeze in the extra 4 cylinders that caused problems. Both GE and EMD had trouble in USA with that engine particularly with reliability. The lack of a second cab indicates that the engine size maybe different due to this issue.

I suspect that is what RDSO has been working on with EMD is the best combination for India.

WRT toilets the EMD Locomotives have had a Bio digester toilet for a long long time.

[chetak]

IIRC the WDG-5 has been worked on for 3-4 years at least with EMD based on one of their 6000 HP designs. The increased power comes from using 20 Cylinder engine vs the 16 cylinder one the WDG-4 uses. Historically there have been problems with that 20 Cylinder engine as it is very powerful compared to the Chassis. Also things were done to squeeze in the extra 4 cylinders that caused problems. Both GE and EMD had trouble in USA with that engine particularly with reliability. The lack of a second cab indicates that the engine size maybe different due to this issue.

I suspect that is what RDSO has been working on with EMD is the best combination for India.

WRT toilets the EMD Locomotives have had a Bio digester toilet for a long long time.

For sure, this will soon be "upgraded" to a hole in the floor variety for reasons of economy and lack of trained personnel to maintain such facilities.

IR has some ways to go before the bio digester phase kicks in.

[Suraj]

Image of the new 5500hp WDG-5:
link

[Aditya Watts]

Maybe someone can shed a light on this. I always have noticed that Indian trains do not drive with their lights on at the front part of the train; only when its dark or hazy, foggy etc... In the west certainly, the trains always have their lights on. I believe it should be mandatory (if it is not yet) to have the lights on in the daytime as well. I believe, and science will be with me, that it will certainly increase safety for both the driver(s) and general public.

[Sachin]

I believe, and science will be with me, that it will certainly increase safety for both the driver(s) and general public.

Any more explanation as to why this is required? Any way during the time of poor visibility (i.e night, fogs etc.) the drivers do switch on the head lights. But why is it required when going through a perfect sunny day, when there is good and clear visibility? A person who cannot see a train coming in broad day light, may not see it when just because it has switched on its head lights. My understanding is that even in Europe, trains do not have their lights on during day time.

[ArmenT]

Any more explanation as to why this is required? Any way during the time of poor visibility (i.e night, fogs etc.) the drivers do switch on the head lights. But why is it required when going through a perfect sunny day, when there is good and clear visibility? A person who cannot see a train coming in broad day light, may not see it when just because it has switched on its head lights.

There are use cases for using lights even on sunny days, especially in tunnels and shady sections of track (such as a track that runs through the middle of two hills.)

Of course, these days a light sensor could decide when to turn lights on or off, but I guess the regulations in the west date back from when light sensors were non-existent.

[Sachin]

There are use cases for using lights even on sunny days, especially in tunnels and shady sections of track (such as a track that runs through the middle of two hills.)

But is'nt it upto the driver to decide what to do in such cases? Railways is an organisation where they have caution boards indicating when the driver should even sound the horn. So there would be some guide lines on when the drivers can switch on the head lights (the simple guide line being, switch on the head light when you cannot see any thing ahead).

[Aditya Watts]

I believe, and science will be with me, that it will certainly increase safety for both the driver(s) and general public.

Any more explanation as to why this is required? Any way during the time of poor visibility (i.e night, fogs etc.) the drivers do switch on the head lights. But why is it required when going through a perfect sunny day, when there is good and clear visibility? A person who cannot see a train coming in broad day light, may not see it when just because it has switched on its head lights. My understanding is that even in Europe, trains do not have their lights on during day time.

I am actually more talking from the outsider's point of view and the driver's point of view is more secondary for this issue.
In cases where there is poor visibility, there of course it is evident that lights are imperative. Now in the case of daytime when there is clear visibility, it still is the case that when lights are lit on a moving vehicle, that they can be seen better/earlier. For example traffic rules in Nordic countries dictate that it is even mandatory that lights should be running at all times. In the Netherlands it is not mandatory, but they advice to do so. Especially when your vehicle has a dark color. Now in the case of railways: In Europe, at least in western and northern Europe, trains run with their lights on, even at daytime with clear visibility.
My personal experience also shows that one notices a dark vehicle much later than when it had his lights on. The same will definitely apply to trains as well. Indian trains are covered by dust, and are generally not that noticeable.
I am especially in favor of this because of the fact that the number of personal mishaps in India is out of proportion. Just see how many accidents at for example railway crossing occur. I am not saying it will solve all problems, but will definitely help in reducing them.
Some examples of trains in Europe:

[Sachin]

I am especially in favor of this because of the fact that the number of personal mishaps in India is out of proportion. Just see how many accidents at for example railway crossing occur. I am not saying it will solve all problems, but will definitely help in reducing them.

Trains in India do not run as fast as their counterparts in Europe. Secondly in India, many accidents happen purely because of negligence. In very many cases accidents happen not because the train was not seen on time. The people tried to cross the track, or move their vehicles across the tracks hoping that the train would NOT hit them. For such folks, putting on the head lights etc. is not going to make any difference. In India, there are clear cut areas where people and vehicle can cross the tracks. And the drivers know such places. Caution boards are placed at the right location asking the driver to blast the horn.
Off course fogs, darkness reduces the visibility but then the trains do switch on their head lights. What the Indian public need to be taught is that they or their vehicles (how ever big or macho it looks) does not stand a chance in front of a train charging towards them. So step aside, let the train pass and then move on.

[Varoon Shekhar]

Good achievement with the new locomotive. Does anyone know if India has designed and developed any locomotive on its own( this particular one was designed with the help of a US company).

[Theo_Fidel]

Aditya,

What you are talking about is spatial recognition.

90% plus of run over accidents happen due to misjudging the speed/distance of approaching train. No amount of Honking gives people information on how fast train is going and how far it is. That is a major reason for keeping the lights on. If you notice the lights are usually paired, kept at low level and both are turned on. This pairing allows for instant distance/speed judgement. What might take 4-5 seconds can now be done by the brain in .25 seconds. Or the difference between life and death. If we were a bit wealthier and less lackadaisical about population safety, there would be research and testing of this information which is well known in advanced countries.

Yes Indians are shoddy and lazy. But it is not like the built environment helps them live their lives. As Rahul says the conflict areas are well known. When we have the resources all these areas will be redesigned to keep pedestrians at grade and move the railways either above or under. This business of pedestrian over bridges is cheap-a$$ design solution that is a stand in for real engineering.

Basis of design for all traffic. Pedestrian always has right of way and must be kept at grade. Always.

[Bade]

^^^ But the Indian requirement ethos, is pedestrian should also be able to climb into and out of a vehicle at grade from anywhere and at any time. This leads to compromise and we had discussions even in nukkad or was it the inferiority thread about why Indian expectations of cows and people and vehicles at grade was absolutely right and optimal. Also add railroad to the above list. We are meeting the spec already, with loss of lives in bargain.

[Theo_Fidel]

^^^ But the Indian requirement ethos, is pedestrian should also be able to climb into and out of a vehicle at grade from anywhere and at any time. This leads to compromise and we had discussions even in nukkad or was it the inferiority thread about why Indian expectations of cows and people and vehicles at grade was absolutely right and optimal. Also add railroad to the above list. We are meeting the spec already, with loss of lives in bargain.

Within limits this too can be accommodated. See below. Note that pedestrians cross anywhere anytime. This is correct engineering. Rubble strip/bollards keeps vehicles in a very slow pattern forcing them into grade separated arterial streets. 90% of road space is given to pedestrians to whom the streets should belong. Fat cats/mem-sahibs in cars rightly have last priority.

Ahmedabad.



The aim is to separate incompatible streams of traffic. The thought process has to be that pedestrians, hawkers and yes even cows belong on the streets and vehicles should have very restricted access. You in your fast car have last priority, yes even in hot sun. Now rules change in separated arterial corridors, i.e. overhead railway line or below grade expressway. AFAIK DM does not have problems of people walking down the viaducts. Neither does say the elevated Tumkur expressway. Once people leave a transport corridor, they can return to the pedestrian zone at grade.

Needs lot of resources, with extensive public transport, proper engineering and yes, effective policing as well. Present mish-mash is uncontrollable and unpolice-able as well and can not be fixed. We are going along with British transplanted traffice engineering that does not work in India. We need the ability to walk anywhere anytime. Going against this organic principles causes most of our grief.

[Bade]

Yes, it will work only with a self imposed honor code of public behavior.

I am all for pedestrian first as a design priority, but in practice hard for Indian expectations. Even highways are not spared from random access to pedestrians.

If roads are at crush densities already, it has broken down the design already even if pedestrian friendly to begin with. This aspect applies to railway platforms. Rest is OT.

[Suraj]

Is that a picture of Ahmedabad or a render ?

[saip]

Recently I was driving in CA route 99. I saw a long freight train with something like three diesel engines running on the track next to the road. Even though I was driving at 75+ it kept up with me. If these freight trains can go that fast how come even our superfast trains do not go that fast?

[Theo_Fidel]

That is a render of an urban Ahmedabad design.

Not to beat this dead horse but... ...take a look at this image of urban congestion below.



You might think that the people wandering around are the cause of congestion. Not so. The 20 fat cats who have parked their cars are occupying more road space than the other 2000 people on that street. Cars and Vehicles need to be banned from 90%+ of Indian streets. The Indian town was designed for walking, not speeding cars. Sooner we get over this new found fancy for cars in urban centers the better.

--------------------------------------------------------

Trains in India do run fast. Several of the Shatabdi's & Rajadhanis are in the 150 kmph peak range. ~ 90 mph. When you stand on the track a 50 kmph train and a 150 kmph train coming down the line look the same. Hard to judge distance.

[Suraj]

We're going into discussions better suited to the urban development and public policy thread here. Zoning and urban planning are poorly executed in India, giving the appearance of chaos. It's absurd that so many shopping malls and residential blocks come up without any meaningful provision for parking and easy pedestrian entry/exit.

Please continue further discussion here: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy thread.

[Aditya Watts]

Aditya,

What you are talking about is spatial recognition.

90% plus of run over accidents happen due to misjudging the speed/distance of approaching train. No amount of Honking gives people information on how fast train is going and how far it is. That is a major reason for keeping the lights on. If you notice the lights are usually paired, kept at low level and both are turned on. This pairing allows for instant distance/speed judgement. What might take 4-5 seconds can now be done by the brain in .25 seconds. Or the difference between life and death. If we were a bit wealthier and less lackadaisical about population safety, there would be research and testing of this information which is well known in advanced countries.

Yes Indians are shoddy and lazy. But it is not like the built environment helps them live their lives. As Rahul says the conflict areas are well known. When we have the resources all these areas will be redesigned to keep pedestrians at grade and move the railways either above or under. This business of pedestrian over bridges is cheap-a$$ design solution that is a stand in for real engineering.
Basis of design for all traffic. Pedestrian always has right of way and must be kept at grade. Always.

Yeah this is what I was referring to. Thanks for making it more clear. Your points on urban engineering are also really interesting.That combined with Sachin's view on mentality problem should be tackled for a safer railway system.

[Christopher Sidor]

Trains in India do run fast. Several of the Shatabdi's & Rajadhanis are in the 150 kmph peak range. ~ 90 mph. When you stand on the track a 50 kmph train and a 150 kmph train coming down the line look the same. Hard to judge distance.

I believe what saip was referring to was a freight train and not passenger trains. And if its doing 75 mph that translates into 120 kmph. None of our freight trains go so fast.

[Singha]

due to lack of dedicated tracks (even a single dedicated line with two way freight trains) , passenger trains are given priority in India on 2-track and 1-track sections always. the avg speed of goods train due to all these enforced stops cannot be more than 40kmph.
the Delhi-kolkata and delhi-mumbai industrial corridor I think is supposed to fix that issue by putting in a additional line on each route. in other areas with sparse passenger trains like in our mining belts of eastern india, goods trains might have a freer run.

[chetak]

Recently I was driving in CA route 99. I saw a long freight train with something like three diesel engines running on the track next to the road. Even though I was driving at 75+ it kept up with me. If these freight trains can go that fast how come even our superfast trains do not go that fast?

Sirjee, the three diesel engines together hauling the freight train didn't give you a clue?

[vishvak]

due to lack of dedicated tracks (even a single dedicated line with two way freight trains) , passenger trains are given priority in India on 2-track and 1-track sections always. the avg speed of goods train due to all these enforced stops cannot be more than 40kmph.
the Delhi-kolkata and delhi-mumbai industrial corridor I think is supposed to fix that issue by putting in a additional line on each route. in other areas with sparse passenger trains like in our mining belts of eastern india, goods trains might have a freer run.

2 paise suggestion.
Absence of dedicated tracks can be circumvented, notice the word circumvented, by constructing elaborate signaling and putting '8'-shaped rail constructs at railway lines. In this way, along with well-orchestrated signalling, many trains can run over single tracks. When trains approach the constructs, one can either wait, or altogether move slowly on different lines till reaching the single one. Just thinking out of the box.

[krisna]

Soon, surf the web on trains via satellite

Surfing the Internet in trains without using data card seems to be a distinct possibility now as the Railways have got the much-awaited clearance from space agency ISRO for using the satellite for the purpose.

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has given the clearance for using the frequency from KU band for using the satellite for Internet, said a senior Railway Ministry official, adding it will be for the first time that Internet will be operational in moving trains through satellite.