Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Apr 2012 17:07

You post a video or article of India and it will attract ,pakee trolls like light attracts insects..

Look at the wiki pages of Pakistani missiles ,nukular ,science and tech etc , and you ll find a whole lot of BENIS material .. RAPEs have vomited all over their wiki entry .. (expect phrases like tsp has advance pu enrichment tech , super shanghai stats etc)...

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 29 Apr 2012 18:27

gakakkad wrote:You post a video or article of India and it will attract ,pakee trolls like light attracts insects..

Look at the wiki pages of Pakistani missiles ,nukular ,science and tech etc , and you ll find a whole lot of BENIS material .. RAPEs have vomited all over their wiki entry .. (expect phrases like tsp has advance pu enrichment tech , super shanghai stats etc)...

From
wiki entry on Ghaznavi missile

Criticism

In 2006, the Afghan Minister of Information and Culture criticized Pakistan for naming its lethal ballistic missiles and other weaponry after Afghan kings and rulers (i.e. Abdali, Ghaznavid, Ghorid and Mughal rulers) arguing that .., not with tools of destruction and killing. Pakistan declined ... stating that these Muslim rulers are considered heroes in Pakistan as well .. not controversial.[5][6]

The international people watch in silence like an innocent bystanders even when pakis missile strength is wholly India centric.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 29 Apr 2012 19:11

British Red Cross doctor kidnapped in Pakistan found beheaded
http://www.samaa.tv/newsdetail.aspx?ID=46865&CID=1

---

US drone strike kills two in Miramshah
http://dawn.com/2012/04/29/us-drone-str ... miramshah/

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Apr 2012 19:31

shravan wrote:US drone strike kills two in Miramshah

http://dawn.com/2012/04/29/us-drone-str ... miramshah/

A reappearance after a gap of nearly a month by the National Bird of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan or should that be National Bird of Prey.

Meanwhile Reuters reports that the death toll in today’s drone strike at Miramshah now stands at four:

Drone strike kills four suspected militants in Pakistan

Clearly the US has not fully understood the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar message which was quoted in a Reuters wire report datelined April 27, 2012 that drone strikes were not welcomed

:

“On drones, the language is clear: a clear cessation of drone strikes”

Quote From Here.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 29 Apr 2012 20:41

A 100-strong Sunni Tehrik group, armed with weapons and bearing clubs, arrived and attacked the Sindh Progressive Committee (SPC) demo.
http://www.viewpointonline.net/sunni-te ... -demo.html

http://iaoj.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/at ... mentalism/

Apr 17 2012

...There were over 70 activists, men and women, chanting slogans like; “Down with Religious Extremism”, “Down with Terrorism” and “Save Rinkal Kumari-Save Sindh”. Meantime, a small mob consisting of Sunni Tehrik (ST) activists appeared and asked the SPC activists not to raise slogans against religion.
...
The SPC activists sought refuge in the press club whereas the enraged ST mob put the tyres on fire and besieged the press club. They were chanting, “Ghulami-e-Rasool main mout bhi Qabool hai” [Ready to die as slaves of Prophet Muhammad]. Nearby traders shut the shop fearing trouble and the road was deserted immediately.

...

. Police arrested civil society leaders Taj Marri, along with his Daughter Paras, renowned leftist intellectual, thinker, writer and activists Bakhshal Thalou and many other activists of civil society . Religious fundamentalists tried to put Hyderabad Press club on fire, and latter GOR Colony police Station was attacked by them.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 29 Apr 2012 21:45

BSF women personnel gun down Pakistani intruder in Gurdaspur sector in Punjab
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/bsf-w ... jab-204009

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Apr 2012 21:46

shravan wrote:BSF women personnel gun down Pakistani intruder in Gurdaspur sector in Punjab
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/bsf-w ... jab-204009

muahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 29 Apr 2012 21:50

Militants' quick training in Pakistan poses problem to intelligence agencies

Western security officials are worried about a wave of so-called "fast turnaround" volunteers who travel to Pakistan and obtain training from militant groups so quickly that they escape detection before returning to their home countries to launch attacks.

Analysts say the unprecedented speed with which new militants are being accepted for training by groups such as al-Qaida poses major problems for intelligence services as such individuals are likely to stay "below the radar".

The fears have been reinforced by one recent episode when, security sources say, British volunteers arrived in the southern Pakistani city of Karachi, found their way to a religious school that has a reputation as a gateway to militant groups and, though they appear to have had no references, were within days participating in a training course run by al-Qaida or a linked extremist organisation in the rugged tribal zone along the frontier with Afghanistan.

After only a short stay in Pakistan, the volunteers had returned to the UK. Previously volunteers would have had to travel with reliable references from individuals known and trusted by extremist groups in Pakistan and would spend weeks "in quarantine" before being accepted. Frequently they would be tested in combat or in other ways to ensure they were not spies.

Richard Barrett, head of the expert committee established by the UN security council to oversee sanctions against the Taliban and al-Qaida, said: "People are going in for a shorter time and so are much harder to spot. They are not seeing senior people, just lower-level trainers and maybe a middle-ranking leader, so security issues [for the extremist group] are less."

Barrett said some intelligence indicated that Mohammed Merah, the 23-year-old gunman who killed seven people in France in March, had spent possibly less than a day with a group known as Jund al-Khalifa in Pakistan.

One earlier plot cited by security officials as indicating the new "fast turnaround" trend is an al-Qaida bomb plot against the New York subway in 2009.

A US court has heard how three volunteers travelled to Pakistan from the US in August 2008, hoping to enter Afghanistan and join the Taliban. Turned back at the border, they were invited by al-Qaida operatives to a compound in Waziristan, where they spent about a week listening to lectures and watching videos of al-Qaida attacks. A second week was spent at another compound learning bomb-making techniques. They then were sent home.

European officials have also circulated a document found on two militants – an Austrian and a German of Turkish origin – detained in Germany last year on their return from the zones along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and tried earlier this year.

The document is thought to have been authored by a senior figure within al-Qaida and recommends that westerners who seek out the group should be trained quickly and sent back to their home countries as soon as possible.

Almost all the most serious plots in the UK have all involved the training of volunteers in Pakistan by al-Qaida. However, the flow of extremist volunteers from the UK to Pakistan has reduced substantially in recent years.

Other high-profile successful attacks in Europe, such as the Madrid bombing of 2004, have been by self-forming networks following the ideology of the group but not formally linked to it. Though the White House has said it has no "credible information" of a threat before the first anniversary of the death of Osama bin Laden in a US special forces raid, high-profile events such as the London Olympics this summer remain a target, experts say.

A recent Home Office report spoke of "a high-level threat of AQ-inspired extremism from males aged between 20 and 38" to the Olympics. "The individuals of interest to the police are predominantly British-born second and third-generation migrants from south-east Asia. There is also interest from a number of Middle Eastern political movements and AQ-affiliated groups from north Africa," the report said.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 29 Apr 2012 22:04

Lyari is Baloch dominant area?

---
From Twitter
Palestine in Pakistan: non-Baloch forces stormed Baloch in Karrachi - wholesale Massacre of unarmed Civilians #Lyari http://yfrog.com/kgebnaxj

Our ambulances are donkey carts. Dead body of a baloch killed in #LyariMassacre http://pic.twitter.com/WclekqMo

#LyariMassacre Mercenaries of Pakistani forces along with police taking part in operation against Baloch http://pic.twitter.com/pY97ureJ

Baloch youth go through these derogatory measures everyday. #Lyari http://pic.twitter.com/glK5oEPL

PHOTO PROOF: SNIPER TO SHOOT OUT #BALOCH CIVILIANS OF #LYARI ON SIGHT. #LyariMassacre #BalochGenocide http://twitpic.com/9f6e9e

etc

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 29 Apr 2012 22:30

shravan wrote:BSF women personnel gun down Pakistani intruder in Gurdaspur sector in Punjab
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/bsf-w ... jab-204009

Thats the end of the Paki ego. We need to tweet this to no end. I offer for free one chullu full Indus water they can all collectively drown.
Where the hell is her photo. I will have it framed like 71 surrender signing.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 29 Apr 2012 22:38

arun wrote:Madrassah Math causes the need for GDP in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to take a large hit.

The size of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s economy will shrink by up to PKR 2.5 trillion, or roughly 10%of GDP :

Double-counting: GDP overestimated, may be slashed by 10%

The key line is this:

The budget deficit for the current fiscal, initially estimated to be around 6.5% of GDP, will soar to around 9% after the correction, said an official from the finance ministry.

Pakistan had fudged figures to show fiscal deficit better than it actually is to secure IMF's last tranche. There was this gem from long back:

http://tribune.com.pk/story/335268/econ ... mf-report/

Finance secretary changed in wake of IMF report

In its recent report on the state of the country’s economy, the IMF has unearthed that, in a bid to hide the real budget deficit, Pakistan’s expenditures were understated by Rs317 billion and revenues overstated by Rs215 billion.

When the IMF unearthed the errant figures Pakistan claimed that "The government provides only moral, political and diplomatic support to the finance ministry which cooked up the figures. The figures were cooked up by retired and rogue Finance secretary. Finance is a science of peace. Both IMF and Pakistan have people who calculate wrong. The lack of disbursement of IMF money is radicalizing the people in fiance, who attend madrassas and start practicing madrassa mathematics"

And oh, if the corrected GDP is 19 trillion PKR and it has been overstated by 2.5 trillion PKR, it is 13% overstatement, not "slashing by 10% of GDP"

The article itself has madrassa math

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Apr 2012 22:50

Altair , I wonder ,if you could use your extensive network and tell us if anything resembling a census is taking place in Pakistan at the moment .. As per the census pak website , counting is supposed to be going on in march and april.. Could you ask your assets if door to door counting is taking place ? Especially in Balochistan .

I wonder if this was dicussed,,

http://tribune.com.pk/story/319617/2011 ... in-punjab/

2011 Housing Census results: Over-counting in Sindh, undercounting in Punjab

ISLAMABAD:In what appears to be a significant statistical anomaly, large scale discrepancies have emerged in the data obtained by the government during the housing census – a precursor to the population census – with the results apparently over-counting the number of houses in Sindh and undercounting those in Punjab.

What might be the point of doing such a thing ?

Mind you the above is not a complete census..It is merely counting houses ..

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 29 Apr 2012 23:24

gakakkad wrote:Altair , I wonder ,if you could use your extensive network and tell us if anything resembling a census is taking place in Pakistan at the moment .. As per the census pak website , counting is supposed to be going on in march and april.. Could you ask your assets if door to door counting is taking place ? Especially in Balochistan .

gakakkad
Pakistani agencies have a very good idea of the population of Baluchistan down to the last 1000. They do not need new census. Despite how we make fun of those Paki guys here , they are good in assessing the enemy both quantitatively and qualitatively of their own Muslim cousins. They marked every Marri and Bugti and made sure everyone knows it.
In the last 2 months they systematically kidnapped or killed every Baloch who was speaking Baloch freedom. Right now, there are over 800 Frontier corps and ATF pillaging the Turbath district with PAF gunships and heavy arty providing support. Summary executions are a daily norm. Its Bangladesh redux, only this time no Indira Gandhi.
There was a talk earlier about Baluch declaring their Freedom charter in London but they suffered some serious setbacks which forced a postponement.
Lesser known fact is that Baluch also have a bigger problem of traitors within their own ranks.
To answer your question, door to door yes, census no. Just kidnapping or murder.
Altair

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 29 Apr 2012 23:35

Anujan,

You forgot this re IMF/TSP:

Pakistan is a victim of financial fraud. Fraud has no nationality. Pakistan's fiscal troubles are a nuclear flashpoint and all sides need to make sure that Pakistan has enough money. Blame game only helps the fraudsters.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 29 Apr 2012 23:42

^^You forgot to add - There are frauds on both sides.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 29 Apr 2012 23:46

Altair wrote:
shravan wrote:BSF women personnel gun down Pakistani intruder in Gurdaspur sector in Punjab
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/bsf-w ... jab-204009
Thats the end of the Paki ego. We need to tweet this to no end. I offer for free one chullu full Indus water they can all collectively drown.
Where the hell is her photo. I will have it framed like 71 surrender signing.

1st the thrashing of a Paki Ranger by a BSF woman jawan at Wagah border, when he tried to grope her and now this....

Expect Pakis to reciprocate by posting burqha clad kendostyx sistahs at the Wagah border. Except the person inside the burqha will still be a bearded momin pretending to be a woman - in true honourable tradition of the ghazi.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 29 Apr 2012 23:54

74th battalion
Hats off to you sister!
This is going to hurt Pakis where it hurts most.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 30 Apr 2012 00:28

Karachi civil war

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iinsr0pFsjE

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Apr 2012 01:16

^^ Amazing, it all seems so normal. Like just another day at Office.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Apr 2012 01:40

Looks like Somalia.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Apr 2012 02:10

Nuclear threat to Indo-Pak ties: By Inder Malhotra

Does anyone remember the time when it used to be argued — convincingly enough, in my opinion — that if Pakistan could overtly go nuclear, its security concerns would be taken care of and the way would thus be cleared for at least a modus vivendi, if not rapprochement, between the two old adversaries, India and Pakistan? It was Agha Shahi, a former foreign minister of the western neighbour who, way back in the 1980s, had publicly made out a strong case for Pakistan acquiring nuclear weapons.

“There is no other way,” he had argued, “we can ever match India’s overwhelming conventional superiority that hangs over our heads like the Sword of Damocles.” In June 1998, both the South Asian countries proclaimed to the wide world, loud and clear, that they were nuclear weapons powers. However, nearly a decade and a half later, has it made much difference to Indo-Pakistani suspicions and fears of each other?

Even now some "experts" claim that Paki "fears" of India could go away if we took a few steps to make them feel more secure (for example, we should withdraw Prithvi missiles.).

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 30 Apr 2012 04:19

BREAKING NEWS: -

Pakistan's Ambassador to the US claims that - we have lost $78 billion in economic costs because of America's War on Terror.

Here is the link to the YouTube video with the start time set: Ambassador Sherry Rehman Addresses NDU Delegation

This is $10.07 billion above the figure quoted by Ministry of Finance in Pakistan Economic Survey 2010-11, Section - Cost of War on Terror for Pakistan Economy, Page 220, Table 2 in June, 2011.

Cost of War (2001-2011) During the last 10 years the direct and indirect cost of war on terror incurred by Pakistan amounted to $67.93 billion or Rs.5037 billion.

Two contradicting things come to mind -

1) Is Mush still involved in the policy planning of Ministry of Finance that they keep arriving at these outrageous numbers?

2) From 2010-11's $17 billion to this year's $10 billion is a sharp decrease or is this only for the first 2-3 quarters of the current fiscal year?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 30 Apr 2012 04:34

^^^
10 percenti claimed > $100 Billion in his oped 6 months back.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html

We have hemorrhaged approximately $100 billion directly in the war effort and tens of billions more in lost foreign investment.

As I have argued for repeatedly, Pakistan should be reimbursed for the money they lost due to war on terror

1. US killed Osama Bin Laden, and Pakistan is not getting money to track Bin Laden anymore, Pakistan should be paid this money so that they continue to not catch Bin Laden as they used to in the past.
2. Pakistan is losing out on the transit fees paid by NATO, because Pakistan shut down NATO routes and NATO does not pay Pakistan anymore for not using the routes that Pakistan shut down.
3. US should pay the money Pakistan owes to IMF because without US pressure, IMF would not have given loan to Pakistan and now due to US pressure they have given money to Pakistan and Pakistan has to pay it back. It is US fault.
4. More than 35 Billion $ paid to Pakistan directly or indirectly for GOAT is Pakistan's birth right.
5. More than 50 Billion $ of debt rescheduling due to GOAT is also Pakistan's birthright.

And oh, the losses on GOAT can be compared to the madrassa math about the losses due to flood:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/46721/lack- ... programme/

Sources privy to latest developments told The Express Tribune that two different sets of statistics about flood damages to the economy irritated the IMF staff that negotiated with Pakistani delegation, headed by Finance Minister Dr Abdul Hafeez Shaikh, in Washington.
The Fund staff was lost somewhere between the statistics of the visiting delegation and those revealed by the prime minister, sources said. “The IMF advised the finance minister to go back and bring the acts together before seeking relief,” said a key finance ministry official

I dont know if mush still works in the finance ministry, but the figures they produce seems to be pulled form someone's musharraf.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 30 Apr 2012 04:57

Anujan ji,

Adding the following to the list will probably cover Pakistan's Parliament approved new guidelines on relations with the U.S

->United States should increase pressure on India regarding the resolution of Kashmir dispute.

->Pakistan be given a civilian nuclear deal similar to the one India was granted in 2008.

->US must respects Pakistan's sovereignty.

vdutta wrote:Karachi civil war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iinsr0pFsjE

Firing in well settled neighborhoods, security personnel arriving at the scene carrying automatic weapons...

I’m reminded of Hilary’s remarks to Pakistan, after Haqqani network attacked the US Embassy in Kabul last year . – “Snakes in your backyard won’t bite only neighbours!”.

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 30 Apr 2012 05:18

Dispatches from the front

North Waziristan — a first-hand account
By Khalid Munir
Published: April 29, 2012

The writer is a retired army officer who served in Fata and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa

Soon after conquering Waziristan in 19th century, the British realised that instead of being rulers, they were the prisoners. Movement was with heavy escorts and had to be guarded by piqueting the route. Over a century later, it seems that nothing has changed. At least, that is the impression I got during my short stay at North Waziristan.
Questions about the inaction of the army are answered only by visiting the area. The terrain is mountainous and it is impossible to resort to the same tactics as those used in Kashmir because peaks are not mutually defended. As a result, wide gaps are left open between various posts making it impossible to stop movement across the border.
No one controls North Waziristan. The army has not exerted its power to take complete control of the agency due to justifiable reasons. The Taliban are divided between various groups and even their authority is eroding; locals ignored the warning given through pamphlets by Hafiz Gul Bahadur asking them not to work on the road being built by the Frontier Works Organisation.
Unless militants attack the troops, camps or check posts, no action is taken by the army. Movement from one place to another occurs in heavily armed convoys and that also only once a week for administrative requirements. Curfew has to be imposed from Bannu to Miranshah, Mirali, Razmak and Datta Khel during movements. Although piquets are in place to guard the convoys, five improvised explosive devices exploded during my travel to Miranshah causing casualties. Thus, movement has become a logistical and tactical exercise.

Uzbeks, Tajiks and Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) members have settled down in the Dawar areas mostly around Mirali. Miranshah has become an international city where nationals from all countries can be found. Due to fear of Taliban reprisal, intellectual gatherings are mostly restricted to electronic eavesdropping.

Maintaining peace has been left to the peace committee which moderates between the Taliban and the political administration. The army only reacts if it is attacked and that, too, only after political administration and the local Jirga agree on punitive action. Collective punishment is still resorted but on a much smaller scale.

Political administration has lost the control it once exercised in Fata. Unlike Islamabad and Lahore, locals are not against drone attacks due to their accuracy in hitting militant targets. It seems that the army and government have also reconciled with drone attacks and if other problems are solved with Nato, drone attacks will not remain an issue irrespective of what the All Parties Conference or parliament say.
With the return of internally displaced persons, incidents of militant attacks in South Waziristan have increased. In neighbouring agencies such as Kurram, Orakzai, and Tirah in Khyber, the situation is still not under control. Additional troops will have to be inducted by bringing in fresh troops from other parts of the country. However, most troops are deployed for internal security making them unavailable for border duty. Crossing points have to logically be near main routes but nothing stops the Taliban from crossing over from unconventional routes. Measures such as colouring fertilisers, which are now being following, will not be of much help.

With calls from Nato and the USA for action against the Haqqani network and keeping our own interest in mind, we will have to resort to a military operation. But for the time being, this is impossible to do.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/371741/nort ... d-account/

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 30 Apr 2012 05:31

I gather that paki missiles are just fired at random in the general direction of the ocean? No NOTAM etc? Do they even bother to radar track?

Looks like I was right. They don't have tracking radars

The following day on 26 April 2012, the ISPR revealed more information about the missile, confirming the missile has a maximum range of 1000km. The missile weight is approximately 10,000 kg, slightly heavier than its predecessor and can be MIRVed with either 3 nuclear warheads or 6 conventional warheads. In addition, the Shaheen IA primarily contains sophisticated automated refuelling and advanced stealth technology features that were not present in its previous version to avoid detections from radars. Even Pakistani radars could not track the missile after it was launched. All three Shaheen missiles, Shaheen I, Shaheen IA and Shaheen II are reportedly equipped with the latest PSAC (Post-Selection Attitude Correction) system. This is a unique feature which consists of small thrusters that can adjust the warhead trajectory for greater accuracy and evading anti-ballistic missile defence systems. The features of the missile could also serve as a testbed of features which could be implemented on the yet to be deployed Shaheen III which could potentially have a range of 4500km

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Apr 2012 06:01

Altair wrote:
shravan wrote:BSF women personnel gun down Pakistani intruder in Gurdaspur sector in Punjab
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/bsf-w ... jab-204009
Thats the end of the Paki ego. We need to tweet this to no end. I offer for free one chullu full Indus water they can all collectively drown.
Where the hell is her photo. I will have it framed like 71 surrender signing.

The funniest part is that the Pakimoron saw the women and thought that they would do nothing because they are women and he cut the wire. They just cut him down to size in short order. +1

sanjchopra · Post by **sanjchopra** » 30 Apr 2012 06:49

Check out the embedded video..Poor phucker caught a round on his neck. Kya aim hai

BSF women personnel gun down Pakistani intruder in Punjab

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Apr 2012 07:34

Folks pardon me for making a few posts "for the record". I am currently researching society and history of Pakjab, and wanted to post this data about castes in Pakistan as a data point - it is from some random forum - copied on to several sites so I am not going to bother about a url. It seems accurate enough - but I post it because it is the most comprehensive I have seen. I was particularly on the lookout for those who consider themselves "high caste" among Pakis, because this has played a role in shitistan's current status

The Castes in Pakistan

The "high castes" is as follows (all the names are given in language panjabi):

- Jat: Landowners; they add with their first name the name of "Chaudry", "Shima", (it is not systematic).

- Rajput: Princes, but landowners in great majority.

- Arian: The oral tradition said that they are descendants of the army of Ibn Qasim, whose troops had been created in Perse. They are originating in Perse and became with time landowners. One finds this caste only in Panjab. They add with their first name the name of "Chaudry", "Mian", "Mair", sometimes "Khan."

- Shaikhs: Tradesmen, they are downward Arabic; they add with their first name the name of "Malik."

- Sayed: Monk, their work also consists in making amulets, they are downward of the family of the Mohammad Prophet.

- Kashmiri: Of origin of Kashmir, they form a caste in Panjab, make various trades as tradesmen, butchers, foremen... They add with their first name the name of "Goal."

- Kakayzai: Tradesmen. They add with their first name of name of "Malik."

- Qazi: The oral tradition said that they would go down from the Afghan soldiers. They would have since the beginning exerted the function of monk. Currently it is a caste land great landowners; it is very largely represented in the administration and the bureaucracy. They add with their first name the name of "Qureshi".

- Pathan: Descendants of pathans, they form a caste in Panjab, they make various trades as civils servant, tradesmen...

- Gujar: Herdsmen, and often landowners.

The "small castes" is as follows:

- Tarhan: Carpenters.

- Qamyar: Potters.

- Lowar: Will forge.

- Kassaï: Butchers.

- Mirassi: Travelling musicians, troubadours.

- Mautchi: Shoe-makers.

- Tobi: Launderers.

- Darzi: Dressmakers.

- Jalaye: Tisserands.

- Lahari: Dyers.

- Mashqi: Water carriers.

- Teli: Oilcans.

- Balwalai: Messengers.

- Naï: Hairdressers; they are also able to make small operations, they circoncisent the new born ones and are cooks during the festivals and the marriages...

- Fakir: They are nourished by people of the districts where they live, in exchange of all kinds of odd jobs (to wash the crockery, to prepare the narghile...).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Apr 2012 08:36

I am going to make some assumptions and generalizations. The "Punjab" area is one of five rivers and those fiver rivers have historically formed a formidable barrier to invasion. The generalization I am going to make is as follows: Since invasions came from the west, the western side of the Punjab was always more vulnerable to occupation, while the eastern side was more easily defendable. The assumption that follows from this is that when you look at empires out of India one can assume that the eastern side of the rivers were more under "Indian" control while the western side fell earlier and more easily than the east. I have found no specific proof of this - only general references in narratives of history in the internet.

The Gupta empire that represented a peak in Indian civilization went into decline around 400-500 CE (CE=AD). Islamic invasions started in the 8-9th century CE. So there was a good 200-300 year gap between the declining Gupta empire and the Islamic invasions when the area called "Punjab" was under the control of various forces. The internet refers to a "Kiraite" kingdom in Punjab in the early part of this interim period, and a Hephthalite empire in the later part. The Hephtahlite empire is a complete mystery. Not much is known and much is assumed/theorized. No one knows if they arose in the Afghanistan area, or western China or Iran. The name "Hephthalite" has been linked to the later name "Abdel" and have been said to be the origin of the Pashtun people. The Hepthalites however used to bury their dead (unlike Zoroastrians) and had polyandry (like Tibetans/Ladakhis). They appeared to practice a "Kabila" like tactic. If they were pushed out of one region, they would go conquer some other region and establish a kabila there. This was pre Islamic.

If you recall, Babar himself, in a later era did the classic Kabila thing, but found India so good that he stayed and his descendants could not be dislodged for centuries. Babar came to India only because he was kicked out of Uzbekistan. The current Pakistan tactic of trying to expand into Afghanistan is again a classic Kabila tactic as ramana pointed out. Pakistan itself is a Kabila for the hordes that ran from India in 1947. Afghanistan is a further kabila in case they get pushed out of Pakistan. So "strategic depth"==place for new kabila. It was the British who built canals who greatly increased the amount of arable land in Pakjab. Until the 1900, parts of Pakjab was like it had been for millennia - with annual floods, the Indus changing course and the pastoralists and agriculturalists who could not settle in one place because of that. But around the rivers it was fertile land. But I digress.

It was Mahmud of Ghazni who captured and settled Punjab around 1000 CE. If I re-introduce the assumptions I made earlier, it is likely that the first conquests and forcing of Islam came on what is now Pakjab. Mahmud died in 1030. Punjab became officially his with the taking of Lahore in 1023, seven years before his death. Somnath was sacked in 1024. Mahmud was mainly a Muslim murderer killing Hindus and Buddhists. I am not sure how many he converted - although many probably did out of fear - forming the earliest Muslims of Pakjab.

I found the following interesting references to the advent of Islam in Punjab. This is from 1881
http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/ ... record=709

The people of the eastern districts very generally refer their change of faith to the reign of Aurangzeb; and it is probable that the tradition very nearly expresses the truth. Under the Afghan dynasties, while the great provincial governors were always Mahammedan, the local administration would appear to have been in a great measure left in the hands of Hindoo chiefs who paid tribute and owed allegiance to the Sultan of Delhi. It is tolerably certain that little attempt was made at proselyting under the free-thinking Akbar. It would appear, however, that during his reign and those of his immediate successors, the character of the administration changed considerably, a more direct and centralised control being substituted for an almost purely feudal system.* The change gave the people Musalman governors in the place of Hindoos; and must have greatly facilitated the systematic persecution of the infidel which was instituted by Aurangzeb, by far the most fanatical and bigoted, and probably the first who was a bigot among the emperors of Delhi. The local traditions tell us that in many cases the ancestor of the present Musalman branch of a village community adopted Islam "in order to save the land of the village;" and it appears probable that some sort of legal disability was attached or attachable to a Hindoo.

Mahammedanism in the Eastern Districts.—In the eastern portion of the Punjáb the faith of Islám, in anything like its original purity, was till quite lately to be found only among the Saiyads, Patháns, Arabs, and other Musalmáns of foreign origin, who were for the most part settled in towns. The so-called Musalmáns of the villages were Musalmáns in little but name. They practised circumcision, repeated the qulmah or Mahammedan profession of faith, and worshiped the village deities.

So it appears that the main push for purity in Islam in Punjab along with forced conversions came with Auragzeb. More on this in a later post.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 30 Apr 2012 08:37

Raja Bose wrote:^^You forgot to add - There are frauds on both sides.

As someone I know likes to say

There are extremists on both sides. There are terrorists in Karachi and there are terrorists in Mumbai (who went from Karachi)

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 30 Apr 2012 09:38

sanjchopra wrote:Check out the embedded video..Poor phucker caught a round on his neck. Kya aim hai

BSF women personnel gun down Pakistani intruder in Punjab

Excellent marksmanship. Prospective Paki grooms looking to cross the border need to take a careful look at the fate of their birather - he is buzzing with flies and can't speak.

member_23252 · Post by **member_23252** » 30 Apr 2012 10:19

It was just simple misunderstanding.

US envoy to Pak says no bounty announced for Hafiz Saeed

Lahore: American Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter has said that US government did not announce any bounty for Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) chief Hafiz Saeed, a suspect in the Mumbai terror attacks case. He blamed the Pakistani media for "misreporting" the issue.

"Pakistani media is very active and responsible but it misreported the issue of Hafiz Saeed. Though Hafiz Saeed is a suspected accused of the Mumbai terror attacks, the US government didn't place any bounty/head money for him," Mr Munter was quoted by the Dawn newspaper as saying.

He said this while replying to various queries during a media talk after addressing the annual dinner of the American Business Forum (ABF) on Sunday.

He said the US reward for justice programme was based on the information received that could lead to arrest or conviction of any United Nations' declared terrorist (not specifically for Hafiz Saeed) of any country.

In the first week of April, Rewards for Justice website announced that information leading to the arrest or conviction of the JuD chief shall be rewarded with upto US $10 million.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/us-en ... eed-204075

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 30 Apr 2012 11:40

Saar, a few comments and observations about your illuminating post:

shiv wrote: - Arian: The oral tradition said that they are descendants of the army of Ibn Qasim, whose troops had been created in Perse. They are originating in Perse and became with time landowners. One finds this caste only in Panjab. They add with their first name the name of "Chaudry", "Mian", "Mair", sometimes "Khan."

I thought it was spelled "Arain" (I was re-reading "Kim" recently and the word appears there as a caste of market farmers). As usual, they claim arab descent, but the DNA tests show something entirely different, going by the wiki article that I linked above.

shiv wrote: - Shaikhs: Tradesmen, they are downward Arabic; they add with their first name the name of "Malik."

Do these guys also use "Shaikh" as a last name? I know a few Pakis who use Shaikh as a last name.

shiv wrote: - Sayed: Monk, their work also consists in making amulets, they are downward of the family of the Mohammad Prophet.

Also spelled "Sayeed" or "Syed".

shiv wrote: - Qazi: The oral tradition said that they would go down from the Afghan soldiers. They would have since the beginning exerted the function of monk. Currently it is a caste land great landowners; it is very largely represented in the administration and the bureaucracy. They add with their first name the name of "Qureshi".

Also heard of some Pakis with last name "Qazi". Incidentally, one of the best basketball players in my school was this bloke named Qureshi. He later went on to represent the state and the junior India team as well.

shiv wrote: The "small castes" is as follows:

Nice thing about the "small castes" is that their last name gives away their traditional profession.

shiv wrote: - Lowar: Will forge.

Is that a Lohar? What is a will forge ("iron forge" getting mangled by auto-correct?)

shiv wrote: - Mautchi: Shoe-makers.

In Bengali, the word is "Mochi" a.k.a Cobbler

shiv wrote: - Tobi: Launderers.

Tobi = Dhobi in Pakjabi?

shiv wrote: - Darzi: Dressmakers.

Darzi = Darji (Tailor)

shiv wrote: - Jalaye: Tisserands.

This one confused me. What is a Tisserand? I googled for the word and it seems to be a brand name for aromatherapy oil and is based on the name of its founder, who appears to be as TFPE as it gets. Again I'm guessing your auto-correct ended up mangling what was really typed. Going by the name "jalaye", I would guess something to do with fire?

- Lahari: Dyers.

shiv wrote: - Mashqi: Water carriers.

Same as Bhishti??. Again, I was reading Kim recently and he interacts with a Bhishti.

shiv wrote: - Naï: Hairdressers; they are also able to make small operations, they circoncisent the new born ones and are cooks during the festivals and the marriages...

Better word for this is "barber".

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 30 Apr 2012 13:04

Ali Azmat sings for Jism 2

According to tribune..

Bollywood film director Pooja Bhatt has once again collaborated with Pakistani singer Ali Azmat for her film Jism 2 and this time the singer has sung two songs for the film

Azmat recorded the songs in Lahore on Skype as he was not granted a visa to visit India..

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 30 Apr 2012 15:32

Kashi wrote:Ali Azmat sings for Jism 2

According to tribune..

Bollywood film director Pooja Bhatt has once again collaborated with Pakistani singer Ali Azmat for her film Jism 2 and this time the singer has sung two songs for the film

Azmat recorded the songs in Lahore on Skype as he was not granted a visa to visit India..

So they get paid by paypal or traditional hawala? wtf?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 30 Apr 2012 15:36

Gerard wrote:
I gather that paki missiles are just fired at random in the general direction of the ocean? No NOTAM etc? Do they even bother to radar track?
Looks like I was right. They don't have tracking radars

The following day on 26 April 2012, the ISPR revealed more information about the missile, confirming the missile has a maximum range of 1000km. The missile weight is approximately 10,000 kg, slightly heavier than its predecessor and can be MIRVed with either 3 nuclear warheads or 6 conventional warheads. In addition, the Shaheen IA primarily contains sophisticated automated refuelling and advanced stealth technology features that were not present in its previous version to avoid detections from radars. Even Pakistani radars could not track the missile after it was launched. All three Shaheen missiles, Shaheen I, Shaheen IA and Shaheen II are reportedly equipped with the latest PSAC (Post-Selection Attitude Correction) system. This is a unique feature which consists of small thrusters that can adjust the warhead trajectory for greater accuracy and evading anti-ballistic missile defence systems. The features of the missile could also serve as a testbed of features which could be implemented on the yet to be deployed Shaheen III which could potentially have a range of 4500km

What the hell are they smoking! spill alert would have been appreciated! Its tea time in India!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Apr 2012 16:27

ArmenT wrote:
shiv wrote: - Naï: Hairdressers; they are also able to make small operations, they circoncisent the new born ones and are cooks during the festivals and the marriages...
Better word for this is "barber".

Well you'll have to lift your lungi for people to check whether you have had circoncisent or not by your barber.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 30 Apr 2012 17:07

What the hell are they smoking! spill alert would have been appreciated! Its tea time in India!

The pakees are hell bent on making a fool of themselves..they have vomited the exact paragraph in wikipedia article of shame-heen..

Did the pakees even test fire a missile of any sort ? even a sounding raakit ?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 Apr 2012 17:11

so skype now does recording quality voice?
i wonder if movies like jism actually have their target audience in p-land, for all the furious maalish-wallah's?