India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 30 Apr 2012 09:44

IMHO we should stop revisiting , those unfortunate episodes in which Kakodkar was insulted ..Forget him ,even Bhabha was not spared..

But it does show that rhetoric and selective jargon usage can influence the Indian public . I ll not be surprised if there still exists Indians who think that pakees ,have better missiles etc. That is mainly due to the piss-ops ran by AAJ-TAK ages ago.

Similar self proclaimed strategy gurus with BA or MA degree ,commenting on yield and design aspects were given more credence than the scientists who designed the weapons. It shows that mind can be influence using random jargon , self proclaimed titles and rhetoric .

I am happy that admins have done the necessary bombing this time.

Hopefully , from here onwards , we ll limit discussion to science and news items appearing in the lay press rather than commenting on moral aspects and about the stuff that is way above our own capability .

One other thing is that a clear black and white dichotomy does not exist often in these issues . There will be shades of grey that we have to consider . A politician may be a total scum . But sometimes he may end up doing something good. That Congress is a total scum is a fact. But sometimes it did end up doing some good.

I agree with some of the adjectives used by people against MMS .. But he too did some good things at times. When bad people manage to do good things we must look at them objectively .

I hope people clearly read and understand the 123 agreement and other aspects of the N-Deal from the US gov site ,rather than from lay press. The terms of the deal are crystal clear. It is a good deal indeed.

I hope no rhetorical comment on the deal ,are made again ,like "deal destroyed indias thorium programme etc" (that part is nonsense , thorium research is going on as it was before ,no fund diversion has taken place ) ..

I suggest we have an FAQs page that answers all nuclear related questions that apdools might have..So that we can stop having repetitive and diversionary discussions about this , that tends to hijack the dhaaga. As soon a an abdool ventures into these areas we can send him to the FAQs thread..

I ll contribute about the medical aspects and safety aspects of power plant .For the physics and legal aspects there are far more knowledgeable people than I on this dhaaga..

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 30 Apr 2012 17:42

India-Japan to move forward on nuclear coop

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/in ... 72599.html
New Delhi: In a bid to give impetus to their growing multi-faceted ties, India and Japan on Monday decided to have two new dialogues on maritime and cyber security, and also to "move forward" on the civil nuclear cooperation to obtain "mutually satisfactory" pact.

External Affairs Minister S M Krishna and his Japanese counterpart Koichiro Gemba co-chaired the 6th India-Japan Strategic Dialogue and 1st Ministerial-level Economic Dialogue here during which the two sides reviewed political and security cooperation and discussed ways to enhance and accelerate their trade and business ties.

They also discussed important international and regional issues, including situation in Afghanistan, Myanmar and North Korea's nuclear programme.

Noting that the two countries have already had three rounds of negotiations on civil nuclear cooperation, Krishna, at a joint press conference with the Japanese minister, said, "We have instructed our negotiators on the way forward..." and added that the two countries understand "concerns" of each other which related to their historic experiences.

Asked on the progress in civil nuclear talks and if India's non-NPT status was a sticking point in the negotiations, Gemba said, "We reconfirmed that we will move ahead with the negotiations to conclude, and agreements to obtain mutually satisfactory outcome.

"At the same time, I asked for understanding on Japan's strong desire for nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation."

On the maritime dialogue, Gemba said, "India is actually situated at an important place on the sea lanes of the communication which links Japan with the Middle East. So, I cannot overlook the geo-political significance of the location of India."

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 30 Apr 2012 20:52

NPC completes formalities to open reactor pressure vessel.

The Nuclear Power Corporation (NPC), which is working on a war-footing for the commissioning of first phase (1,000-Mw) of Kudankulam nuclear project, has achieved yet another milestone.

The state-run entity responsible for the generation of nuclear power for electricity has completed the prerequisites for opening the reactor pressure vessel.

NPC has also collected baseline date for carrying out in-service inspection. Only last week had it submitted separate applications for the opening of reactor pressure vessel and loading the fuel to the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB).

NPC chairman and managing director S K Jain said a high-level team had visited the Kudankulam plant in Tamil Nadu last week.

They comprised Atomic Energy Commission chairman Srikumar Banerjee, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre director R K Sinha, NPC representatives and eight members of the central government-appointed expert panel, besides M R Sriniasan, who is chairman of a pertinent expert panel appointed by the Tamil Nadu government. “The team carried out inspection of the ongoing work and safety applications,” Jin told Business Standard.

He informed NPC had collected baseline data required for in-service inspection. “They are crucial, and meant to guard against any possible degradation of the plant during 60 years of its operations,” he added.

This is the first visit of a high-level team after the Tamil Nadu government gave go-ahead on March 20 for the completion of the Kudankulam plant in down-state Tirunveli district.

About having completed the prerequisites for the opening of reactor pressure vessel, Jain said the actual opening of reactor pressure vessel would be done after AERB gives its consent. By opening the reactor pressure vessel, the dummy fuel bundles, which are loaded during hot run, will be removed,” he said.

Fuel would be loaded after AERB gives approval for it. “We hope the these activities to complete by June so that the generation will be able to start at the Kudankulam project in the same month or by early July,” he added.

Jain said the commissioning of the nuclear project would be preceded by a three-stage review process. “In the case of the Kudankulam project, 17 specialist groups on different issues related to safety of reactors have conducted comprehensive studies and given their approvals,” he pointed out.

“Subsequently, the Advisory Committee on Project Safety will soon complete its analysis. Later, the AERB will do its own analysis before giving its consent for fuel loading into the reactors.”

As far as fuel is concerned, Russians have given sovereign guarantee for fuel supply for the life time of the Kudankulam plant. “Initially, 90 tonnes of uranium will be loaded into the reactors. Later, 30 tonnes will be replaced every year,” he informed.

On the availability of manpower for early completion of project, Jain said NPC was able to pull more than 2,000 persons and deploy them on various activities.

On the Tamil Nadu government’s proposal for making available the entire 2,000-Mw power from Kudankulam project to the state after its full commissioning, Jain said the 1897-founded NPC produces power and supplies it to the grid. “The power ministry will have to take a call on whether or not to supply entire power to Tamil Nadu,” he said. “We have no view on this issue.”

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Apr 2012 22:08

http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/8 ... lete/44936

86 percent work on Kalpakkam N-plant complete

The 500 MW prototype fast breeder reactor (PFBR) at Kalpakkam will soon get its first lot of fuel assemblies - used to build its nuclear fuel core, a senior official has said, adding that 86 percent of the "physical work" on the plant has been completed. The Rs.5,677 crore project is being built by India's fast breeder reactor operator Bharatiya Nabhikiya Vidyut Nigam Ltd (Bhavini). Kalpakkam is 80 km from Chennai.

"We will soon start getting the fuel assemblies in several lots from Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) while welding of blanket fuel assemblies was flagged off by Atomic Energy Commission chairman (Srikumar Banerjee) Saturday here," Prabhat Kumar, director (construction) and project director, told IANS. The finished fuel rods are grouped in special fuel assemblies that are then used to build up the nuclear fuel core of a power reactor.

According to Kumar, the PFBR will have 181 fuel assemblies and 120 blanket assemblies. The PFBR will be powered by a mix of plutonium oxide and depleted uranium oxide called MOX fuel. "Blanket assemblies contain depleted uranium to absorb the excess neutrons that are generated from the nuclear fission that happens at the reactor core. After a few years, the blanket assemblies are reprocessed to extract plutonium for the initial feed of future fast reactors," P.Chellapandi, director, Nuclear Design and Safety at IGCAR, told IANS. While the fuel assemblies will be placed at the centre of the reactor vessel, the blanket assemblies will be kept surrounding the former, Chellapandi added. Kumar said the dummy fuel (fuel similar to the real one in terms of specifications minus the fission material) is expected in couple of month's time. "This is the first of its kind reactor for India. We want to be sure about every aspect of the reactor before taking it to criticality. The fuel loading will be done only when we are very sure about the reactor performance and safety," Kumar said. He said the project capex would not exceed Rs.5,677 crore but there will be some sizeable savings. "A total of Rs.3,800 crore has been spent so far on the project," Kumar said.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 01 May 2012 06:11

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 943970.cms

India can make world’s cheapest nuclear reactors, Department of Atomic Energy chief says

Now, India can build cheaper nuclear reactors, than even South Korea. Talking to TOI on the eve of his retirement, Dr Srikumar Banerjee, secretary in the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE), said India can now manufacture nuclear reactors at $1,700 per unit. Come May, Banerjee will make way for Ratan Sinha, currently director of Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), who will take over as secretary, DAE.

"We are now the world's most economical manufacturer of nuclear reactors. Our cost per unit, of $1,700 (for a 700mw reactor) is substantially less than our nearest competitors. The average international cost is now between $2,500 and $3,000 (for a 1,000mw reactor). South Korea demonstrated its ability to build nuclear reactors for less when it wrested a massive reactor deal for the UAE from French giant, Areva, a couple of years ago.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 May 2012 07:48

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 120430.htm
'It's an over-reaction to ask Kudankulam to shut down'

Dr G R Srinivasan, former vice-chairman, Atomic Energy Regulatory Board of India, is one of India's most respected nuclear scientists.In this exclusive interview with Rediff.com's Shobha Warrier, Dr Srinivasan -- who has more than 50 years of experience in the nuclear industry -- discusses the Kudankulam nuclear power plant, against which a renewed agitation commences on Tuesday, May 1.
After the Fukushima nuclear power accident and the tsunami threat earlier this month, people all over the world and those in Tamil Nadu are extremely scared of nuclear power plants. Would you say their fears are unfounded?
I would not say their fears are unfounded. They are legitimate fears and they have to be addressed. Unfortunately, deliberate misinformation is given at times. Hence, people may be afraid.At the same time, it is very difficult to make people understand a complex subject like nuclear energy. They may ask questions, but they are not able to follow the answers which we give them.A professional is needed to explain the complex subject properly. I would say we need the media to explain (the subject) to them.

What would you tell the people of Kudankulam who are scared of a tsunami striking there and the plant getting affected?

First of all, India is not in a subduction zone. We also will not get a nine metre high tsunami.California, Japan, Indonesia, etc, are places where the intensity level of an earthquake can be eight and above on the Richter Scale. In India, we never have had such heavy earthquakes.
The Kudankulam plant, as well as the Jaitapur plant, will easily withstand earthquakes of the intensity that occurred in India's Western region on April 14, as well as the aftershocks of the earthquake that struck Indonesia on April 11.In fact, the nuclear plants at Kalpakkam, Tarapur, Kaiga and Kakrapar continued to operate safely during these earthquakes.Kalpakkam has already seen a tsunami and there was no problem.
Kudankulam has got a special design to tackle tsunamis and earthquakes. I can assure people that earthquakes or tsunamis will not affect the plant.It may have to be shut down for a day or two. Once everything is back to normal, the plant can be restarted.
I also want to point out that Kudankulam is very different from the Fukushima plant. I can list 15 different features which will tackle each and every thing that occurred in Fukushima.It is an over-reaction to ask the Kudankulam plant to shut down just because the Fukushima plant was affected.
Are you saying the Kudankulam plant is safer and has used modern technology?
The technology used at Kudankulam is very advanced. Twenty years ago, after Chernobyl took place (on April 26, 1986), many scientists started working on designs for nuclear power plants that ensured almost no action is required on the public domain even in accidents as severe as Chernobyl and Fukushima.
Beyond 500 metres, nothing will be affected even when the plant has some damage.Due to these advanced features, there won't be any problem to the public and the environment.

The Kudankulam plant has all these safety features.

A small percentage of the people may be anti-nuclear and they may not change their opinion. It is possible to wake up a sleeping person, but not a person who is pretending to sleep.Public acceptance and policy-makers's reactions after the Fukushima accident has been much more mature than what we saw after Chernobyl and Three Mile Island.At that time, they would say shut down all nuclear power plants. Now, they ask, how many more we should build, what modifications we should make, how can they be made more safe, etc.They are much more mature because one generation has grown up with nuclear power. But we may need one more generation (to do so) before it becomes part of our everyday life.

Take a train journey for example. More than 200, 300 people may die in an accident, but people will board the same train the next day. Nobody is afraid that they may also get killed in another accident. That is because travelling by train has become a part of our everyday life.Similarly, it will take another generation for nuclear power to become part of everyday life.
In Tamil Nadu, there is already a nuclear power plant at Kalpakkam. Why do you think there is so much protest and resistance to Kudankulam? Has it anything to do with what happened at Fukushima?In my opinion, it has nothing to do with Fukushima.
Fukushima happened in March and the resistance started in October. I don't think it takes 6, 8 months for someone to realise there is a risk.When the plant started 10 years ago at Kudankulam, people living in that area had a wonderful relationship with those working in the plant. Many of our friends used to say that people in that area used to see them off warmly. They had accepted the plant and those associated with it.You can imagine why there is so much hostility now. I don't want to say anything more.

If you look at India's reactors, in which 340 reactor years have been completed by the 20 reactors, the safety performance has been good.An independent environmental survey is continuously conducted around all the 20 reactors; this study has been accredited by the ministry of environment and forests.

They have taken 3,000 samples of fish, milk, soil, grass, etc, to find out how much radiation a person will be exposed to if s/he is near the plant 24 hours a day, 365 days in a year.The survey found that staying near a nuclear reactor did not cause any health hazard. Radiation in the public domain was to 2 to 3 units per year to the already existing natural background of 200 units. That means the radiation increases from 200 to 202 or 203.This 2 to 3 units can be compared to the 100 units that are safely permitted by regulatory bodies all over the world, including the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board.

Let's suppose India needs 800,000 MW of energy. It is not possible to generate that much energy with coal as coal will run out in 11 years. We are importing coal even now.We will not have energy security and energy independence if we rely on coal alone.Uranium and thorium can be managed for 200 years. The thorium we have is enough for 358 GW, which will last us 1,000 years. By 2040, you will have an energy gap of 70,000 to 80,000 MW which can only be filled by nuclear energy.We have to encourage nuclear energy as we have a large amount of thorium.
India needs to have four pillars to generate energy -- thermal, renewable, nuclear and improving energy efficiency.All these four should be independently encouraged because India needs so much energy.It's not just India -- all developing countries and emerging economies are going for nuclear energy. Of the 11 countries that have more than 10 reactors, the UK, US and Canada have announced that they will go for more nuclear power plants aggressively.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 01 May 2012 21:24

small percentage of the people may be anti-nuclear and they may not change their opinion. It is possible to wake up a sleeping person, but not a person who is pretending to sleep.Public acceptance and policy-makers's reactions after the Fukushima accident has been much more mature than what we saw after Chernobyl and Three Mile Island.At that time, they would say shut down all nuclear power plants. Now, they ask, how many more we should build, what modifications we should make, how can they be made more safe, etc.They are much more mature because one generation has grown up with nuclear power. But we may need one more generation (to do so) before it becomes part of our everyday life.

I think this is a classic error the Nuclear establishment makes. Opposition was zero at the beginning. It is increasing due to their manner of operations not the other way around. More than other industries they have this tension between secrecy vs risk to people. It is the repeated accidents that have caused the opposition.

This is the logic behind the radiation is good for you, banana banana banana hypothesis. If people get used to radiation they won't be afraid of it. Human nature does not work that way. They need to realize they are dealing with humans not automated machines.

Take a train journey for example. More than 200, 300 people may die in an accident, but people will board the same train the next day. Nobody is afraid that they may also get killed in another accident. That is because travelling by train has become a part of our everyday life.Similarly, it will take another generation for nuclear power to become part of everyday life.

If the Railways was as secretive about its operations, people would refuse to get on the train as well. They need to deal with the public rather than make political back room deals. There is at present no way for people to influence the decision process, hence the mounting hostility. People understand the risk with trains and hence deal with it. It is impossible to truly evaluate the risks with a Nuclear plant and people instinctively understand this. And they are not being patiently listened to.

India has been very lucky so far. But riding this particular bull means it is not if you get hurt but when.

Let's suppose India needs 800,000 MW of energy. It is not possible to generate that much energy with coal as coal will run out in 11 years. We are importing coal even now.We will not have energy security and energy independence if we rely on coal alone.Uranium and thorium can be managed for 200 years. The thorium we have is enough for 358 GW, which will last us 1,000 years. By 2040, you will have an energy gap of 70,000 to 80,000 MW which can only be filled by nuclear energy.We have to encourage nuclear energy as we have a large amount of thorium.

I don't understand this sentence at all. What sort of gap is 10% of the power supply? Why not fill the gap with what ever is supplying the other 90%. Is there a physical impossibility. Makes no difference WRT scale. I wish he had gone into further depth on how this 70,000 MWh of Nuclear power capacity is to be obtained. That would be a fascination conversation. Lets be honest. Thorium is not going to get us there unfortunately. In say a 50 year timeline. This has been admitted quietly by the AEC. So why bring up Thorium. Why the confusion. If the fuel is conventional U-235 enriched....

India needs 70x250 tons = 17,500 Tons of fuel every year. Even Tummalapalle will be exhausted in 6-7 years. If anything Uranium will run out first. Even at 10%.

Lets take that claim about coal. CIAL has confidence that there is at least 250 Billion tones of economically viable domestic coal. With more being investigated all the time. There is another 100 Billion tons of Lignite in TN & Rajasthan though some is marginally viable and under fertile land. Say 80% of that 800,000 MW comes from Coal. We need roughly 4 million tons of Indias low calorific coal annually per 1000 MWh of capacity. So 800x.8x4= 2560 Million tons ~ 2.5 Billion tons. Me thinks we have a 150 year supply of domestic coal. Now we will be essentially digging up large chunks of India to make this happen but we are not going to run out of coal in his or our lifetimes. We can have a debate on if we want to do this but that is another topic. In any case I don't see how knocking 10% off that changes the equation in any meaningful way.

To import that much Uranium esp. fuel rods would be a crippling import expense, every year. No less than coal, with the nuclear added arm twisting that will go on.

For 70,000 MWh of coal we need roughly 70x2.5 = 175 million tones annually. Equal to roughly $20 Billion worth of imports. Heavy but once the Nuclear capital import costs and fuel rod import cost and spares import costs (No IP transfer remember) are accounted for it is likely to be a wash.

But at least we are having an honest conversation here. None of that 4000 GWh stuff. It is OK for a scientist to have stars in his eyes, but as a nation there needs to be some reality behind these comments.

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 May 2012 09:55

AmberG, why don't you google for 'MWWOW + Bharat-Rakshak' and visit each of the search results and see what I was trying to impress upon. Nothing more nothing less.

You see beyond a certain point it becomes immaterial as to who coined the term 'MWWOW'; what happens in the long run by making repeated references to it is one way or another anyone will think that AK is known as MWWOW on BRF .

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 02 May 2012 19:34

Negi - You can do your own search and find out how dishonest your point is.

Keep in mind the following simple facts..

1. AK was called men who walks on water (among many other etc SEVERAL times by Arun_S.), as Gerard just pointed out it was quite disgraceful.

2. This disgraceful act became so well known that people (even outside BRF) noticed it. (I think even AK came to know this) I came to know of acronym because it became quite popular so I will not take the credit for coining it.

3. It is beyond silly (not to mention dishonest) to sit on sidelines and rebuke me and keep bringing up the issue (as if the whole problem is my use of the acronym). I have not seen you have ever objecting to when these folks attack Indian scientists or me.
In any case, it is really disgraceful that you, sitting on sideline, are rebuking me for using an acronym while much more serious insults to others are okay by you.

What is your point, unless you want to derail the thread?

member_20283 · Post by **member_20283** » 02 May 2012 21:44

The agenda is obvious. Round and round we go.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 03 May 2012 00:41

amit wrote:
Japan power companies warn of summer shortages

...
More importantly I'd like to see what effect power shortages have on Japan's semicon, electronics and car manufacturing industries.

Amit, you may like to take a look at A recent report from Japan’s Institute for Energy Economics found that, as a result of all (or virtually all) NPP's to shutdown, the country’s GDP would grow just 0.1 percent in 2012, and Japan could find struggling with electricity shortages during the sweaty summer months.
By contrast, the IEEJ report found, if Japan began switching its nuclear reactors back on this summer, the economy would grow 1.9 percent this year — largely because lower electricity prices would allow factories to ramp up production. What’s more, by curtailing its fossil-fuel imports, Japan would be able to run a trade surplus this year, instead of a projected $57 billion trade deficit. (Currently, Japan imports about 90 percent of its oil from the Middle East, and the country’s newfound appetite for crude has helped drive global prices upward.)
From: IEEJ Report

amit · Post by **amit** » 03 May 2012 06:59

Amber G. wrote:Amit, you may like to take a look at A recent report from Japan’s Institute for Energy Economics found that, as a result of all (or virtually all) NPP's to shutdown, the country’s GDP would grow just 0.1 percent in 2012, and Japan could find struggling with electricity shortages during the sweaty summer months.
By contrast, the IEEJ report found, if Japan began switching its nuclear reactors back on this summer, the economy would grow 1.9 percent this year — largely because lower electricity prices would allow factories to ramp up production. What’s more, by curtailing its fossil-fuel imports, Japan would be able to run a trade surplus this year, instead of a projected $57 billion trade deficit. (Currently, Japan imports about 90 percent of its oil from the Middle East, and the country’s newfound appetite for crude has helped drive global prices upward.)
From: IEEJ Report

Spot on.

It's not for nothing that the Japanese took a decision several decades ago to go nuclear in a big way. They wanted to wean itself away from import of oil and coal, both of which the country has zero quantities domestically. The two different scenarios for growth look very realistic to me.

I would be especially interested in seeing how a beleaguered Toyota and Honda stave off the challenge from Hyundai. I would also like to see how struggling Sony and Panasonic tackle Samsung and LG with the additional burden of power shortage and higher power tariffs.

I'd put my bet on Japan going back to nuclear - maybe not to the level pre-Fukushima but certainly a substantial portion. The Government already realises the need, I have a feeling the aam junta will come around after May and June (summer heat and all that). I had posted a report which said that in certain parts of Japan the power shortfall could be as much as 20 per cent in June - that's almost as bad as India.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 May 2012 09:19

For reference, crossposting recent data from the economy thread:
Our annual net oil+coal imports amount to $115-120 billion. It could be argued that domestic inflation stoked by rising hydrocarbon input costs in turn drive purchases of gold ($60B/year) as an inflation hedge. The total annual cost is not pretty.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 03 May 2012 18:59

Uranium can only displace coal AFAIK not Hydrocarbons. Nuclear has very little to say about liquid fuels. We have dreamt this dream for a long time and yet here we stand, importing coal by the ship load. Uranium too will be imported.

Last year we imported about 80 million tons of coal worth about $6-8 Billion. If we go with MMS import of reactors idea our deficit will get even worse. And long term importing of Uranium fuel rods will be just as expensive.

God forbid but we have a catastrophic failure at one of ours like Japan, we too would then be in that same position of having to shut them all down. This is the real risk of Nuclear. If say something happens to one of the numerous Russian VVER reactors we too would be at risk of losing ours.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 03 May 2012 19:54

large scale import of reactors is a very bad idea..

the only form in which we should import uranium is ore....

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 03 May 2012 20:55

^^

+1
I can agree with that.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 04 May 2012 09:44

Australia favours India's entry into technology control regimes

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 984202.cms

NEW DELHI: Supporting India's entry into international technology control regimes, Australia on Thursday praised its non-proliferation track record and said the next logical step for it will be to join the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).

Delivering a talk on Australia-India relations at the Observer Research Foundation (ORF) here, Australian High Commissioner Peter Varghese noted that India has been playing an important role in Asian continent.

"If India is able to demonstrate that it can comply with rules and regulations of the systems in place to manage effective systems of export control.... If India is able to do that, I don't see any reason why India ought not be admitted to all of those groups," Varghese said.

India's nuclear capacity is now a fact of life and Australia accepted that it now occupied a unique position in relation to non-proliferation regime, he said, adding that "it is a logical next step for India to be a part of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG)."

Replying to a question on whether Australia would support India's entry to international regimes, he said, "In principle, we would look at India's application very favourably."

Stating that India is not a country with proliferation concerns, Varghese said Australia would like to see India as a part of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty ( NPT) in an ideal world. "India has a very good track record of non-proliferation. We are entirely comfortable with NSG exemption to India," he said.

Varghese further pointed out that the present Australian government has agreed to supply uranium to India, "revisiting and sensibly changing the earlier government's position".

India has maintained that it cannot be the target of regime based restrictions and has pitched for full membership of export control entities, including the NSG.

Foreign Secretary Rajan Mathai had last month expressed confidence that India can fulfil the requirement of the export control regimes-Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), Australia Group and the Wassenaar Arrangement.

India's partnership of the four regimes will be mutually beneficial on grounds of common non-proliferation objectives, he had said. Varghese observed that Australia's relations with India has the capacity to develop into a "real strategic partnership" as interests of both the two countries are converging in the evolving geostrategic environment of Asia.

"Over this century, we can expect India to become a more important player in the security of Asia. Today, it makes more sense to think of the Indo Pacific, rather than the Asia Pacific, as the crucible of Australian security," he said.

On Australian interest in Asia, the High Commissioner said that it is best served by a stable balance of power in the continent, which favours open societies, encourages economic integration and is inclusive in membership and looks outward.

"Our strongest partner in securing these objectives is the US with whom we share both interests and values. This intersection of interests and values is also true of our relationships with Japan, India, Indonesia and Korea," he said.

India's geographical location connecting the Indian and Pacific Oceans also underlines the role it will play in the maritime environment and this is likely to play role in Australian future strategic and defence planning, Varghese added.

amit · Post by **amit** » 04 May 2012 12:01

^^^^^

So even the biggest naysayers are coming around, that too within a couple of years. This is the power of a US$2 trillion economy. But for records sake one needs to remember that the Civil Nuclear Deal opened the door in the first place. Now everyone wants to join the party.

And yes vis coal and nuclear, $8 billion worth of coal (going by Theo's numbers) every year till 2032 works out to $160 billion. And this does not even take into account that our coal needs will go up and prices will also go up.

Now what's the $ number bandied about regarding nuclear reactor imports? One number is $80 billion for 40 reactors by 2032. See here.

There are other estimates which peg the number at $30 billion. And all this money creates physical infrastructure which will be around from 50-80 years. The $160 billion number is just for burning, doesn't take into account infra costs.

These points need to be taken into consideration before making statements like:

If we go with MMS import of reactors idea our deficit will get even worse

And there's no empirical evidence to support this point:

And long term importing of Uranium fuel rods will be just as expensive.

And added to this mix is that all available indications are within the next 20 years our three stage program will start to mature and become a mainstream source of electricity.

Bottomline the civil deal was about easing the shortage of uranium to kickstart both electricity generation as well as our three stage program.

The added benefit is that it gives our scientists a chance to poke around with the state of art tech in the nuclear field. And with the door open we can import uranium from anywhere in the world and even the Aussies are sucking up sensing the business opportunity.

PS: The Indian target is 63,000 MW of electricity from nuclear by 2032. Assume for a moment, that we turn back from nuclear and decide only on coal plants to produce that electricity for surely there will be demand. Now do a back of the envelope calculation of how much additional (additional because this would be in addition to what existing coal plants will be consuming anyway) coal would be required. It would be an interesting number, particularly if we have to import the coal from abroad. The landed cost of Indonesian coal is around $100 a ton as per this report. Other reports peg the price in between $65-$85 a ton.

And yes let's not hear the mantra that within the next 20 years, renewables will be able to produce 63,000 MW of additional electricity (to take up the nuclear slack). That's unlikely to happen. It's still a case of either fossil fuels or nuclear. Just look at the German plans.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 May 2012 17:16

The demand for "clean" electricity for all manner of usages is only growing,from railways to autos for example.The explosion in white goods sales in developing economies like India are also having their effect on demand.There is a limit to how much non-conventional eenrgy sources like solar,wind,offshore WEGs can meet rising global demand.Hydel sources with the environmental damage caused by big dams rule more from this sector.Only large thermal and nuclear power plants can provide the core of power and thermal comes with its drawback of pollution.There is NO alternative to N-power,the need is to design and build safe plants taking the most extreme safety measures,in the aftermath of Fukushima.

PS:For the anti N-power lot,there's always the treadmill to fall back upon! I'm sure quisling Udayakumar and his large gang of protesters can produce enough local power that they need from the feet of their supporters! Any power from KKM cannot be provided to them on moral grounds.The Japanese are actually using footfalls in public spaces like rauil stations,malls,etc., to generate power.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 04 May 2012 19:30

Nuclear Power Corp vendors contest liability clauses

Vendors to the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Ltd (NPCIL) say the the Civil Liability for Nuclear Damage Act, 2010, has put unlimited liability on them, leading to insurance companies denying them cover.

The vendors also have a problem with a section of the Act that seems to allow proceedings against them under other laws as well. The Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (Ficci) has raised the issue with the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO). In a letter to V Narayansamy, minister of state, Ficci has sought clarifications on Section 17(b) of the Act, for which the rules were notified last November.

The section says the operator (NPCIL) will have the right to recourse if “the nuclear incident has resulted as a consequence of an act of supplier or his employee, which includes supply of equipment or material with patent or latent defects of sub-standard services.” This, according to the vendors, puts unlimited liability on them. The Ficci communication stated liability on suppliers should not be there in the case of equipment supplied over five years before.

Hence, Ficci has asked the government to change the rules to quantify the liability in terms of time and amount. S K Ghosh, advisor to the nuclear business of Walchandnagar Industries, said it was a very important issue, affecting vendors and their employees, too.

Industry officials say insurance companies, including those in the public sector, refuse to provide them insurance cover since the liability under Section 17(b) cannot be quantified. This is surprising, said the vendors, as the proposed International Financial Reporting Standards says all liabilities must be disclosed in the balance sheet of the company.

Ficci also said Section 46 of the Act allowed for proceedings under laws other than the Act. This would “put suppliers at the risk of unlimited liability,” the chamber said. The rules under the Act are silent on this section.

However, officials of the department of atomic energy said the apprehensions regarding Section 46 are too far-fetched, as the section was relevant only for the operator and not the suppliers. Hence, there does not appear a need for a re-look, the officials said.

Another objection, according to a section of the vendors, is the removal of the indemnification clause from the NPCIL tenders after the new rules. Earlier, the operator was to take the liability in the case of any accident that would result in third-party loss to life and property.

At the time of sanctions against India for proceeding with a nuclear programme from the late 1990s, vendors continued supplying equipment to NPCIL despite the fact that they also came under the ambit of those sanctions and had to bear a loss of business in their other ventures with the United States. They were assured because of the indemnification clause, the vendors said.

“We continued to supply equipment even at the cost of other businesses only due to the indemnification clause that assured us,” industry players said.

Though analysts said public sector companies were also not very comfortable with the new rules, officials of Bharat Heavy Industries Ltd, one of NPCIL’s suppliers, refused to comment when asked. Larsen & Toubro and Godrej are among the non-government vendors to NPCIL.

NPCIL officials tried to play down objections by the vendors, saying there had been some contracts despite the new rules. The government has a target of 63,000 Mw of energy from nuclear sources by 2032, of which 4,000 Mw has been achieved. Only 2.5 per cent of the installed power capacity in the country is through nuclear sources.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 04 May 2012 22:00

Theo_Fidel wrote:Last year we imported about 80 million tons of coal worth about $6-8 Billion. If we go with MMS import of reactors idea our deficit will get even worse. And long term importing of Uranium fuel rods will be just as expensive.

The coal import bill last year according to commerce ministry data was $18 billion, not $8 billion.

amit · Post by **amit** » 04 May 2012 22:22

^^^^^

Wham! So the rough calculation I did for coal import goes up from $160 billion to $360 billion by 2032. And this only ny assuming constant prices and stagnant demand. This money is just fuel cost.

And we hear $80 billion (this includes both local make as well as imports) spending plan for reactors will bankrupt India.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 04 May 2012 22:25

amit wrote:And yes vis coal and nuclear, $8 billion worth of coal (going by Theo's numbers) every year till 2032 works out to $160 billion. And this does not even take into account that our coal needs will go up and prices will also go up.
Now what's the $ number bandied about regarding nuclear reactor imports? One number is $80 billion for 40 reactors by 2032. See here.

It is not my number. Look at what CIAL is paying for their spot imports right now.

Remember we are importing coal irrespective. I understand you are sad about, as am I. But we are in this predicament because of CIAL’s failures and nuclear powers failed promises. What makes you think the future will be better.

What empirical evidence do you need, more than 1+1=2. You just state the laughably low number for reactor imports. Remember we will be paying the marginal price for those reactors. Right now AREVA does not even the have the capacity to build 2 EPR’s at the same time and we are planning for 6 in one location. Now you are looking at importing 40!. All the equipment comes from the same companies. EPR costs are running in the $8 Billion range. Most of it for the vessel and safety equipment, all imported. All repair pieces, imported.

The first published cost for KKNPP in 1990 was Rs 2,200 crores. As late as 2000 the claimed cost was Rs3,400 crore. Yes you can look it up.

And don’t minimize the costs of importing fuel rods. India does not have enrichment ability. Need cheap electricity for that as well.

amit wrote:And yes let's not hear the mantra that within the next 20 years, renewables will be able to produce 63,000 MW of additional electricity (to take up the nuclear slack). That's unlikely to happen. It's still a case of either fossil fuels or nuclear. Just look at the German plans.

Hard though it may be for you to swallow this, Wind/Solar produce 3 times the electricity nuclear did last year. Not just that, the installed capacity of Wind/Solar right now is on the order of 19,210+940 = 20,150 MWh of capacity. In less than 15 years. I the case of Solar, from a standing start in 14 months. About 5 time Nuclear and growing at a much faster rate. This with no GOI grants and secrecy act.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 04 May 2012 22:25

Suraj wrote:The coal import bill last year according to commerce ministry data was $18 billion, not $8 billion.

Was that for thermal coal only?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 04 May 2012 23:00

>>And don’t minimize the costs of importing fuel rods. India does not have enrichment ability. Need cheap electricity for that as well.

who said that ? India will be able to meet all its civilian demand of u235 by the end of the decade...read 2010 founders day address by srikumar bannerjee...we don't need to import enriched uranium for ever..

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 04 May 2012 23:07

gakakkad wrote:...we don't need to import enriched uranium for ever..

It is not that straight forward.

Imported reactors need enriched U. Enriched U gives all those wonderful burn-up rates. Not just that fuel rod tech is a very very closely guarded secret. IIRC the Americans have still not shared info on the necessary fuel rod design for Tarapur. A key reason for its down rating.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 04 May 2012 23:16

Theo_Fidel wrote:
gakakkad wrote:...we don't need to import enriched uranium for ever..
It is not that straight forward.

Imported reactors need enriched U. Enriched U gives all those wonderful burn-up rates. Not just that fuel rod tech is a very very closely guarded secret. IIRC the Americans have still not shared info on the necessary fuel rod design for Tarapur. A key reason for its down rating.

that is the reason to not buy too many imported reactor..because each reactor will have a specific fuel rod config. and enrichment level...

but totally indigenous designed reactor cannot be a problem...

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 04 May 2012 23:21

gakakkad wrote:but totally indigenous designed reactor cannot be a problem...

Yes. Within limits. Keep that burn-up, fuel load size and reactor vessel size in mind. There is reason the APHWR is 700 MW.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 04 May 2012 23:37

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Suraj wrote:The coal import bill last year according to commerce ministry data was $18 billion, not $8 billion.
Was that for thermal coal only?

I'm just quoting the official press release data - no specifics given:
Fiscal 2011-12 trade data press release

As regards to imports during April 2011-March 2012, the growth estimates on the following sectors are: POL, 46.9% (US $ 155.6 billion); Gold and silver 44.4% (US $ 61.5 billion); coal, 80.3% (US $ 17.6 billion); machinery, 27.7% (US $ 35.4 billion), electronics goods, 23% (US $ 32.7 billion), and coal 80.3% (US $ 17.6 billion US $), Iron & Steel 15%, (US $ 11.9 billion); Vegetable oil, 47.5% (US $ 9.7 billion); Fertilizer 59% (US $ 11 billion); Gems & Jewellery (-)10.6% (US $ 31 billion) .

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 04 May 2012 23:45

Suraj wrote:I'm just quoting the official press release data - no specifics given:

OK. Thanks.

Last data I have shows Indian imports of 34 million tons of coking coal. Coking coal cost 2-3 times thermal coal. Ship delivery costs are often in the $150-$180 per ton range. India does not have domestic coking coal.

Edit: large chunk of Thermal coal is also used by the cement industry.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 04 May 2012 23:52

chaanakya wrote:Cesium exceeding new limit detected in 51 food items in nine prefectures
Kyood

Radioactive cesium was detected in 51 food products from nine prefectures in e

<snip>

Cesium exceeding the previous allowable limit of 500 becquerels per kilogram was detected in 55 cases, while the new limit of 100 becquerels was exceeded in 282 cases....

For perspective radioactivity in an ordinary banana is about (or little more) than 120 becquerels per kilogram

For ignorant people in the world these kind of headlines may have scary effect ...

Remember, Busby (who has predicted 1,400,000 radiation deaths and whose articles were posted here many times by Chaanakaya as a authority) has been in trouble as he tried to peddle snake-oil to cure such radiation tainted food..

Anyway, as they say, ignorance should be countered with knowledge so let me quote from here and put those becquerel in perspective..

It may help, for those who are unfamiliar with Becquerel to have an idea on what it means in ordinary terms...Like knowing how much is a meter by comparing it with height of a small child)

Becquerel just means 1 disintegration per second. so 32 Bq means there are 32 events (alpha particles, + beta particles + gamma photons) coming out every second.

For comparison
Your own body ( Mainly due to K40 ) is about 4000 Bq
A smoke alarm (which has Am-241 and found in almost every house) is about 35,000 Bq
Small Sr-90 sample which a typical physics student may see in a lab = 37,000 Bq (1 muCi)
Cosmic rays and background hitting your whole body = 20,000 Bq
A Banana (typical 150 gm) = 20 Bq

For cancer: Probability that a cell will get cancer due to one of these particles hitting a cell ..
about 1 in 30 quadrillion! (It also depends on the energy of the particle etc.. but this is order of magnitude calculation)
(If you consider human life span is about 3 billion seconds, you can estimate how much background radiation will do you harm and such things...)

(And NO this is not spin from pro/anti nulke guys.. it is simple scientific data point)

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 04 May 2012 23:57

Theo_Fidel wrote:[
The first published cost for KKNPP in 1990 was Rs 2,200 crores. As late as 2002 the claimed cost was Rs3,400 crore. Yes you can look it up. .

Wiki says it is

The cost to India was estimated to be US$ 3 billion (Rs.13,615 Crores) in 2001.[2]

http://www.eca-watch.org/problems/asia_ ... an2004.pdf
The reference quoted says it was 17000Cr in 2001.

The cost should be muich higher now.
While Al Guardian Article posted in international nuke dhaaga says much higher cost, albiet for UK. The same, i.e. French company EDF may construct NPPs in UK.
It says extra cost per MWh would be 60-90GBP.
Actually UK could be european saviour for Nuclear Industry but then path is not entirely free from opposition.

X-posting below

The eye-watering expense of nuclear power

However, private investors are not enamoured by nuclear power. The construction risks are too high (with cost overruns and substantial delays all but guaranteed), and the political risks (with governments constantly changing their mind about levels of support) even higher. The higher the risk, the higher the costs of capital.

Which means governments always have to step in – including the UK government. For the time being, ministers in DECC are sticking to the wording of the Coalition Agreement that a new nuclear programme can only proceed "provided that they receive no public subsidy". This is now so transparently dishonest that it will not be possible to maintain that fiction for much longer, especially when the details of the electricity market reform (EMR) proposals are published.

Here's their dilemma. Ministers wanted to have lots of companies competing to build the ten reactors. Three of the most significant players, (RWEnpower, EON UK and Scottish and Southern Electricity), have already dropped out. Both GDFSuez and Centrica have been giving out very strong signals to investors that they are about to drop out. Most of the rest of the companies left in are too small or incapable to bother about. That leaves EDF, a nuclear giant, 85% owned by the French government.

Just three years ago, EDF's chief executive could be heard crowing about the fact that EDF would need no public subsidy to build its EPRs (European pressurised reactors) here in the UK. Today, his senior directors are pretty much permanently camped out in the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) demanding eye-watering levels of financial support for the four reactors they hope to build at Hinkley Point and Sizewell.

The going wholesale price for electricity at the moment is around £45/MWh. Under the EMR, the government is offering "contracts for difference" to cover the extra cost of nuclear – the so-called "strike price". Calculating the scale of those extra costs is tricky, not least because it is impossible to believe anything the industry says about future costs. Estimates vary between £60/MWh and £90/MWh, with most independent commentators veering towards the high end rather than the low end.

The amount of subsidy required for just four reactors, £90/MWh, would be £2bn a year for 30 years. £60bn. For 10 reactors, it would be £5bn a year for 30 years. £150bn

And you need to understand that this figure doesn't take into account any of the other forms of subsidy on offer (be it in the form of a carbon price floor or massively subsidised insurance arrangements to cover the possibility of nuclear accidents), let alone the massive liabilities for cleaning up our existing nuclear power programme, which come in at about £7bn a year.

From a taxpayers' point of view, that's a minimum of £12bn a year to support an industry that is meant to be receiving "no public subsidy".

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 May 2012 00:05

Amber G. wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Cesium exceeding new limit detected in 51 food items in nine prefectures
Kyood

Radioactive cesium was detected in 51 food products from nine prefectures in e

<snip>

Cesium exceeding the previous allowable limit of 500 becquerels per kilogram was detected in 55 cases, while the new limit of 100 becquerels was exceeded in 282 cases....

For perspective radioactivity in an ordinary banana is about (or little more) than 120 becquerels per kilogram

For ignorant people in the world these kind of headlines may have scary effect ...

Remember, Busby (who has predicted 1,400,000 radiation deaths and whose articles were posted here many times by Chaanakaya as a authority) has been in trouble as he tried to peddle snake-oil to cure such radiation tainted food..

Anyway, as they say, ignorance should be countered with knowledge so let me quote from here and put those becquerel in perspective..

It may help, for those who are unfamiliar with Becquerel to have an idea on what it means in ordinary terms...Like knowing how much is a meter by comparing it with height of a small child)

Becquerel just means 1 disintegration per second. so 32 Bq means there are 32 events (alpha particles, + beta particles + gamma photons) coming out every second.

For comparison
Your own body ( Mainly due to K40 ) is about 4000 Bq
A smoke alarm (which has Am-241 and found in almost every house) is about 35,000 Bq
Small Sr-90 sample which a typical physics student may see in a lab = 37,000 Bq (1 muCi)
Cosmic rays and background hitting your whole body = 20,000 Bq
A Banana (typical 150 gm) = 20 Bq

For cancer: Probability that a cell will get cancer due to one of these particles hitting a cell ..
about 1 in 30 quadrillion! (It also depends on the energy of the particle etc.. but this is order of magnitude calculation)
(If you consider human life span is about 3 billion seconds, you can estimate how much background radiation will do you harm and such things...)

(And NO this is not spin from pro/anti nulke guys.. it is simple scientific data point)

Well you should question the Limits set by Law based on which such reports are prepared.Of course experts would have most say in preparing legal limits for food consumption So you can question such experts and also rue the fact that why you were not in such committees.
Cesium effects are discussed here. If you dont believe them , you can email them to remove some of the contents. It is from US Gov which provides livlihood to may Indian Scientists.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 May 2012 00:47

Amber G. wrote:

For perspective radioactivity in an ordinary banana is about (or little more) than 120 becquerels per kilogram

For ignorant people in the world these kind of headlines may have scary effect ...

Ohh I love my bananas despite its natural radioactive tendencies. I also like repeated reference to it.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 05 May 2012 00:57

Speaking of the silly limit of 100 Bq/Kg as I mentioned before, Japan did ban bananas ... according to Forbes..

Original Headline:

Japan Bans Bananas: From the Annals of Government Stupidity

From Forbes ..
It would seem that in the wake of the Fukushima disaster (you know, that nuclear disaster that hasn’t killed anyone at all and which will have such a small effect that we’ll never know whether it ever will) that the Japanese government has just decided to ban bananas.
Interesting part, the values (in Bq/Kg) are consistent with what I have estimated here in Brf.. Interesting part is they could have asked any ordinary physicist ...K40 in banana happens to be radioactive!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 May 2012 01:41

Actually the Author was either beibg stupid and idiotic or he wanted wide audience to read his piece of trash which you quote so approvingly.

The original story linkrd from Japan Today does not mention anything about bananas.
New safety standards for radioactive cesium in food products go into effect
And it says onl;y about Cesium

The health ministry says no food or drink product will be permitted to be sold if it has radioactive cesium above the government-set limit.

Under the new rules, the limit for general foodstuffs such as fruit, vegetables, rice, seafood and meat is 100 becquerels of radiation per kilogram, down from 500 prior to April 1. The limit for milk, baby food and infant formula is 50 becquerels per kilogram. For drinking water and tea leaves, it is 10 becquerels per kilogram.

But then , as we have seen, banana is a favourite passtime and analogy of Duke Nukems in order to pass all artificial radiation as benign and good, Up to a point mention is fine but beyond that it becomes stale.

Some of the famous deaths by bananas errr... radiation are listed here. Surely it is a false and scaring report.

http://listverse.com/2010/03/25/10-famo ... radiation/

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 05 May 2012 02:14

Chaanakaya - Just a suggestion ..

Most of my posts here are to educate general public as there is lot of ignorance. I am following this because Ramana has asked me to do that. One can check standard reputable sources to add more to the knowledge.. and comment if there are any inaccuracies on what I posted.

If you like, you can ignore my posts, or say you disagree.. even better, if you can show some reputable links to correct any error.. that will be helpful. This endless, absurd mocking, personal insults, innuendos, words like "farticle physicists" say more about you than me. It is also very annoying, I am sure not only for me but others too.

In any case it is just a suggestion.

****

Rest of the folks:

Most technically ignorant people who have no idea of radiation units gets easily fooled by lack of familiarity with these units and neem-hakim analysis from charlatans. It is really a serious thing which manifest itself into disgraceful violence against India and its energy sources. Think for a moment, average background radiation is about 3 mSV ( 30-40 or even as much as 70 mSv in some parts of Kerala), yet people are scared of
1/30,000 of that dose, typically received per year from a NPP.

When all is said and done, one rational fact, after Fukushima is NOT a single death (or radiation sickness) from radiation. ... This is not some conspiracy theory by foreign agents but what can easily be verified.

This despite, in our own BRF, repeated assertions as "dramatic increase in bone cancer - (due to Sr)" .. "dead man waking" ., 1,400,000 deaths..

And still not a slightest amount of shame, or even retraction of those claims.

Think about that for a minute.

****

Coming back to "limit" of radioactivity and "exceeding it" type reports .. it will be helpful to understand the facts.

It is very essential, as a citizen or a leader you may have to deal with dirty bomb or other events like Co-60 event in Delhi. The knowledge can literally save your and other citizens life.

Anyway there is a huge misunderstanding about legal "limit" (it varies from country to country etc) and amount which is known to measurably cause ANY health effect. The difference is some time 100x (or 1000x or even more). Since one can measure very tiny amount of radioactivity the limits are often set that way. This way one can stop dangerous level *much* before it becomes a health risk.

For perspective, again, the amount of Co-60 which caused death of one and serious illness of many (about 10) was about *millions* more.. (1 Curie is about
37,000,000,000 Bq)

What is disgraceful is the attempt to educate, and give some perspective is twisted by the likes of Busby as "those idiots are saying radiation is good".. what is being said is not radiation is harmless.. it is the amount which is important.

(Think for a moment - Electricity is dangerous and it kills. But changing an iPhone battery is not the same thing as working on high voltage power line)

Hope this helps.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 05 May 2012 04:00

Generally it is good practice to ignore a few posts, but let me point out some obvious points...(in the hope that information will be helpful to others)

chaanakya wrote:Actually the Author was either beibg stupid and idiotic or he wanted wide audience to read his piece of trash which you quote so approvingly.

The story, with the link , and original headlines was posted. One can, of course, look at details if one is interested, it is dishonest to to suggest otherwise.
The piece is taken from Forbes.

The original story linkrd from Japan Today does not mention anything about bananas.

True (as far as Japan Today did not mention banana).
But it is not idiotic or no piece of trash in Forbes story. Only idiotic thing I can think is to think that "natural radiation" of K40 is fundamentally different from Cs137. A Bq is just that, 1 disintegration per second. The food stuff is not going through a chemical analysis. When one puts a Geiger counter, it generally measures radioactive decay... not chemical analysis. .. (Actually if one looks even in Japan Times story, it does not mentions 100 Bq coming from Cs only)

(See for example :

Under the new rules, the limit for general foodstuffs such as fruit, vegetables, rice, seafood and meat is 100 becquerels of radiation per kilogram, down from 500 prior to April 1. The limit for milk, baby food and infant formula is 50 becquerels per kilogram. For drinking water and tea leaves, it is 10 becquerels per kilogram.

Yes, scientists suspect that radioactivity is coming from Cs, but most of the radiation counter, just measures "clicks" per minute..

(This is why, as I mentioned before, many of the false alarms on radiation meters on the US borders are due to trucks carrying bananas)

And yes, it is idiotic, (this has been discussed in Brf before, GuruPrabhu/Shiv's posts.. quite clearly mentions that the body can not differentiate between different radio-isotopes). To think that "natural radiation" from banana (K40) is fundamentally different from other radiation may look natural to some but any reputable source will tell you that it is not so.

To be clear, reason one does not get sick from K40 radiation in a banana is because of the amount of K40 is small. (Have a curie (10^10 Bq) of K40 and and get radiated, one will get sick... but not if the amount is only 20 Bq)

People have gotten serious radiation sickness from Cs137 when amount was large..One does not get sick (radiation wise

when one drinks wine as, you may not know it but there is radioactive Cs137 in it.

Again, it is not Cs or K so much per se, it is the AMOUNT.

But then , as we have seen, banana is a favourite passtime and analogy of Duke Nukems in order to pass all artificial radiation as benign and good, Up to a point mention is fine but beyond that it becomes stale.

This, of course, is classic obfuscation, if not dishonesty, to describe when good people here are sharing their knowledge. Bed (banana equivalent dose) is just an unit. Too bad if it causes so much irritation. Only idiots like Busby
says all radiation is bad (or good)

The critical part is DOSE!

Some of the famous deaths by bananas errr... radiation are listed here. Surely it is a false and scaring report.http://listverse.com/2010/03/25/10-famo ... radiation/

The ld50 dose ( the 50% probability that one will die) is something like 4000 mSV
The typical equivalent full body dose from digesting something like 100 Bq of Cs would be 0.0001 mSV...(Find out how much dose each one got in the above cases)

As said before, big difference between high voltage power line and battery in an iPhone..

Hope the information is useful to aam janata.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 May 2012 05:10

Have these articles been discussed in this form?

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2816/st ... 611900.htm

Anil Kakodkar, former Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and one of the key negotiators of the civil nuclear cooperation agreements, in particular the 123 Agreement, wrote thus after the NSG announced its new guidelines on ENR transfers ( The Hindu, July 3): “It negates the positive and forward-looking orientation with respect to ENR issues that was built into bilateral and multilateral agreements developed as part of international civil nuclear cooperation. The NSG waiver for India now seems to have been circumscribed.... The United States, Russia and France have issued statements reiterating their adherence to understandings with India. One would only hope that this does not amount to doublespeak and the NSG waiver in respect of the NPT condition that was granted to India earlier remains undiluted in respect of ENR transfers as well. The statements of these countries are far from being explicit in this respect.”

What is, however, obvious, which Kakodkar too has noted elsewhere, is that the NSG decision will target India alone as it is the only country among the three non-NPT countries that have been granted a waiver for nuclear commerce with NSG countries.

Other links already posted above:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 151381.ece

Links not posted earlier:
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... logies-npt
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article2156230.ece
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 347279.ece
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 151381.ece
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2816/st ... 611900.htm

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 05 May 2012 05:11

In addition to my above above, I just looked up my original Forbes story...
If only Chaanakya really read the story.. he would have found out that his question was already answered ... and it was not the author who was being stupid and idiotic...

For context: ..

chaanakya wrote:Actually the Author was either beibg stupid and idiotic or he wanted wide audience to read his piece of trash which you quote so approvingly.

The original story linkrd from Japan Today does not mention anything about bananas.
New safety standards for radioactive cesium in food products go into effect
And it says onl;y about Cesium
The health ministry says no food or drink product will be permitted to be sold if it has radioactive cesium above the government-set limit.

Under the new rules, the limit for general foodstuffs such as fruit, vegetables, rice, seafood and meat is 100 becquerels of radiation per kilogram, down from 500 prior to April 1. The limit for milk, baby food and infant formula is 50 becquerels per kilogram. For drinking water and tea leaves, it is 10 becquerels per kilogram.
But then , as we have seen, banana is a favourite passtime and analogy of Duke Nukems in order to pass all artificial radiation as benign and good, Up to a point mention is fine but beyond that it becomes stale.

Some of the famous deaths by bananas errr... radiation are listed here. Surely it is a false and scaring report.

http://listverse.com/2010/03/25/10-famo ... radiation/

Here is relevant part of the story... quite educative, IMO:

The law is supposed to apply to those foods which are contaminated with cesium and bananas get their radioactivity from potassium (and Brazil nuts from radium). However:

The ministry said local municipalities will be responsible for carrying out testing and that any item measuring above the set standard will not be permitted to be sold.

I know that Japan is an extremely efficient country but who really thinks that local municipalities are going to be testing for which isotope of which element is producing the radiation? Yes, quite, it’s going to be a quick brush with a Geiger counter isn’t it? And again yes, a pile of bananas in the local supermarket will set one off. That’s something you can actually go and test if you should be so inclined (and have access to a counter).

So while the law itself might have been narrowly written it may well not work out that way. It really is possible that bananas will be found to fall foul of this new law.

I author actually clearly laid out his points. Virtually any person who has worked in a nuclear physics lab will know that most radiation counters just measure counts / minute...

For those who are alergic to banana .. what to do.. top search in google for Geiger counter givens this..

We put this kit together in a couple of hours and hand lots of fun bringing it around and listening for ticking sounds near our smoke detectors, bananas, countertops, Brazil nuts, chunks of Uranium,[/b] etc. It includes all components (PCB, tube, & parts) but you will need basic soldering tools and two AAA batteries to complete it.