Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 03 May 2012 17:28

4 killed in roadside blast in northwest Pakistan

From Rezaul H Laskar Islamabad, May 3 (PTI) Four persons, including three security personnel, were killed and two more injured when a bomb went off along a road in the restive Bajaur tribal region of northwest Pakistan today, officials said. The blast occurred in Bar Chamarkand area of Bajaur Agency this morning, officials of the local political administration said. Two personnel of the paramilitary Frontier Constabulary and one from the Levies militia were among those killed. They were patrolling the area when the improvised explosive device was detonated by remote control. Officials described the condition of the injured as serious. They were taken to a hospital in Khar, the main town in Bajaur Agency. Additional security forces were sent to the area to conduct a search operation. Pakistani troops have conducted several operations in Bajaur to flush out pro-Taliban militants.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 May 2012 17:51

Brad Goodman wrote:PM likely to go on a pilgrimage to Pakistan this year

Do we have any sightings of him ever visiting the Gurudwaras in India?
.
And what about secularism? Is this secular?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2012 18:39

I am not trying to speak up for MMS but the reading of the history of Punjab that I have been doing suggests to me that there are a lot of Punjabis, Sikhs and Hindu who have relatives in Pakistan. That is apart from family friendships that may have developed pre-1947.

It is quite likely that many Hindus/Sikhs converted for various reasons. Last year I met a Sikh lady friend of mine and a resident of Canada who spoke of how some Canadian relative of hers had a kidney transplant in Pakistan using the good offices of other relatives who were formerly Sikhs but had converted. The story was an exciting one - and Pakistan was chosen because you can buy donors in Pakistan. The operation was done in a house converted to hospital and the patient had to escape from a window when security people came checking, but finally made it to the house of relatives in Lahore.

This is a constituency that we never talk about when we speak of traitors, WK, jholawala etc. The community exists. The other thing about getting too uppity about Pakistan is the fact that Sikh holy places are there and there will always be a demand for Sikh pilgrims to visit. For those of us who can go to say Titupati or Varanasi any time, the significance of this may be less important.

Toady and Indian soldier was killed in a gunfight in Kashmir. That is the other side of reality of our relations with Shitland on a day when the PM, himself a Sikh wants to go to Pakistan.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 03 May 2012 19:05

Pakistani society is so up-to-date that in this cyber age they don't need books anymore.

Peshawar closing its bookstores

Peshawar is the administrative center of Pakistan's Federally Administered Tribal Areas yet it is now left with only one major bookstore, as its last rival closes under the force of simple economics and the impact of growing Taliban influence.

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 May 2012 19:33

shiv wrote:I am not trying to speak up for MMS but the reading of the history of Punjab that I have been doing suggests to me that there are a lot of Punjabis, Sikhs and Hindu who have relatives in Pakistan. That is apart from family friendships that may have developed pre-1947.

It is quite likely that many Hindus/Sikhs converted for various reasons. Last year I met a Sikh lady friend of mine and a resident of Canada who spoke of how some Canadian relative of hers had a kidney transplant in Pakistan using the good offices of other relatives who were formerly Sikhs but had converted. The story was an exciting one - and Pakistan was chosen because you can buy donors in Pakistan. The operation was done in a house converted to hospital and the patient had to escape from a window when security people came checking, but finally made it to the house of relatives in Lahore.

This is a constituency that we never talk about when we speak of traitors, WK, jholawala etc. The community exists. The other thing about getting too uppity about Pakistan is the fact that Sikh holy places are there and there will always be a demand for Sikh pilgrims to visit. For those of us who can go to say Titupati or Varanasi any time, the significance of this may be less important.

Toady and Indian soldier was killed in a gunfight in Kashmir. That is the other side of reality of our relations with Shitland on a day when the PM, himself a Sikh wants to go to Pakistan.

It has been repeatedly pointed out on this thread (by people like me) that Communties like Sikhs or Punjabi Hindus have the highest level of hatred for the Pakistan/Pakistanis as they have seen first hand what you have only read about. Any Sikh will accept a Dead Pakistani in lieu of visit to Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2012 19:46

vic wrote: It has been repeatedly pointed out on this thread (by people like me) that Communties like Sikhs or Punjabi Hindus have the highest level of hatred for the Pakistan/Pakistanis as they have seen first hand what you have only read about. Any Sikh will accept a Dead Pakistani in lieu of visit to Pakistan.

Problem is I have also read about Sikhs and Hindus who helped and protected Muslims at partition and one or two similar stories from Pakistan. In fact I have often stated that the intense "hatred" for Pakistan was less evident in the South until the last 20 years when terrorism from Pakistan really hit home. Now most Indians don't give a rat's ass for Pakis. But that hasn't changed a thing for a community of people who seem to have links on the other side.

That community exists and is not going away. How large is it? Are they traitors? Or are they "usable" in any way? If so how can they be used?

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 May 2012 20:57

X Posted from the Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism thread.

Major VBIED catastrophe averted.

Pakistani National looking to export a demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan in Afghanistan is arrested.

AP via Fox News:

Afghanistan: Pakistani driving truck bomb arrested

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 03 May 2012 20:59

Shiv, there is a difference between inter-personal relationships and inter-community relationships. When a Sikh or Hindu knows personally a Muslim, they probably relate to them as a person, not as a representative of the Islamic empire. It is not entirely clear to me whether that that is entirely reciprocated. There is also the inter-community relationship which could be very different, based on the community's collective sense of history. So, e.g., Sikhs may have Muslims that are close friends or family, but collectively as Sikhs they would not want to be in a situation where their political existence depends on Muslim goodwill (e.g., as a minority group in an undivided Punjab that was part of Pakistan).

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 03 May 2012 21:35

Shivji,
You are an esteemed member,a 'guru',an ex-admn of this forum.As a keyboard jehadi,I have a high regard for people like you who have created this forum.

But I cant help feeling you are on a wildgoose chase.Its your choice to get yourself acquainted with sh1tland.To be honest,even that seems a pisko exercise.Cant help feeling that its impossible for you not to know about paki history.

If your search for faultlines in paki society is real then I have a few thoughts.
1) You will never be able to find any faultlines in Pakjab for India to exploit.I will explain why.The two largest castes in Pakjab are jats and rajputs.An additional 'hindu caste' which converted is Gujar.These form the bedrock of stability in Pakjab.Without them,theres no sh1tland.So ideally one would be looking for some sanity from these castes.As they were part of united punjab until 47.

These castes,particularly rajputs and then jats are fairly well resprented among paki RAPES and TSPA.Yet they have made no difference to pakhanastan.Why?

1) As Bajwaji pointed,these are rangaars-ba$turds.

2)Their conversion was purely opportunistic,but it happened under duress,the duress we cannot apply so long as 3.5 friends remain

3)The paki history looks down on the jats and rajputs and glorifies araps,turks,persians.In the paki hierarchy the pashtuns,mongol,persian,syed,awan,gakkar rank higher than rajputs and jats.And the rajput and jat has to prove their muslimness by demonstrable anti-hinduness even though it means hating themselves.Thus the pakjabi even while sh1t scared of the pashtun still would like to be a scheming and more brutal version of pashtun.This is reinforced by mullahs who look west.The Pakis look upto Saudi barbaria,Iran and Central Asia.The pakis hate themselves.Look at the contrast with jutt sikhs.The jutt sikhs have great pride in punjab,its rivers.The Gurus were from Punjab.The Sikh misls was led by jutt sikhs.The empire of MRS though not wholly Sikh was largely Sikh.

4)Only in spain,was the muslim population reconverted.Theres no record of that elsewhere

5)Any overtures by India will be seen only as weakness- as efforts by special interest groups in Delhi to reactivate trading relations particularly because Cong/BJP are increasingly fragile.It will seen only as a vindications of Jinnahs vision that Hindustanis claim of united India was a Brahmin-bania conspiracy which has unravelled and the hindoo banias having seen the writing on the wall were supplicating themselves before the RAPES,all this while we see no corresponding unravelling of TSPA/mullocracy.

6)The pakis have gone so much down the virulent Islamist path,any accomodation with kaffirs will be just taqqiya by a tiny fraction of society.

7)One might think the RAPEs would have some interest in sanity given that they are on the line to the lamp post,but the fact they are RAPes makes them impervious to any reason.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 03 May 2012 21:48

It doesn't get loonier than this in that cesspool of human excreta known as pakhanistan: Death Threats to.....
...bin Laden demolition man

Shakeel Ahmad Yusufzai ...is the man who demolished Osama bin Laden’s house and despite Taliban death threats, says he is proud of what he did.

My wife feels scared and whenever I come home late she thinks that either I have been killed or kidnapped. But I believe that whatever I did was in the national interest.

Conspiracy theories about what ‘really’ happened to bin Laden are rife in Pakistan, and many in Abbottabad are not convinced he was ever there. Even Yusufzai is prepared to accept the doubts.

now the salvageable material is held in a storeroom in a girls’ hostel at a local college

Now there's a justifiable reason to blow up that girl's hostel.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2012 22:03

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv, there is a difference between inter-personal relationships and inter-community relationships. When a Sikh or Hindu knows personally a Muslim, they probably relate to them as a person, not as a representative of the Islamic empire. It is not entirely clear to me whether that that is entirely reciprocated. There is also the inter-community relationship which could be very different, based on the community's collective sense of history. So, e.g., Sikhs may have Muslims that are close friends or family, but collectively as Sikhs they would not want to be in a situation where their political existence depends on Muslim goodwill (e.g., as a minority group in an undivided Punjab that was part of Pakistan).

The mystery to me is why these relationships are maintained given the assumption of uniform hatred from Pakistanis.

One possible explanation is that a Pakistani cannot afford to publicly show friendship of be conciliatory towards India and Indians. Of course this is a weak argument akin to saying "The sun is actually 99% cold - we just happen to see the 1% hot part and act as if that is all there is to the sun. We need to look for the cold bits".

But clearly we know that there seems to be a contingent of inestimable size in India that seeks friendship with what is, for all intents and purposes, a murderous country. This Indian contingent is referred to as "traitor", "WKK", jholawala" etc. There are enough of them to form an entire named class of their own. Does this class exist in a total vacuum?

The answer that we have to this question is as follows: "You know, Pakistanis will behave all friendly and reasonable about everything until it comes to Kashmir when they suddenly go all fundoo" The Traitors/WKK/Jholawalas seem to profess friendship for Pakistanis despite all this. And recall that we can't see those Pakistanis in any case - we assume that they exist, giving a reason for the WKKs to want friendship. The story that we have depended upon all these years on BRF is that the Pakistanis who act friendly are patriots - who will pretend when necessary to get concessions. And our WKKs are traitors or fools who fall for this pretence (that we don't fall for)

Having made all these "logical" arguments that are difficult to refute, I think it is still worth looking at who or what in Pakistan may be having some regrets about the state of affairs and what it is about their environment that prevents them from open vulgar WKK like displays. After all there are many who are openly critical of Indian WKKs but Indian WKKism per se is not disallowed. Only disliked and lampooned.

Does an animal called Paki WKKism exist? Why is it invisible if it exists? Why do Indian WKKs exist if Paki WKKs don't exist?

An answer to this question is important because if it can be shown that Paki WKKs do not exist, Indian WKKs can be bashed into submission with no excuse/opportunity for their efforts. Indian WKKs exist on the premise that Paki WKKs exist (AFAIK). i want to see those Paki WKKs and know why they are otherwise invisible?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2012 22:23

svenkat it is in my nature to question everything and reassess everything. That is the way my mind works.
Conclusions that seem beyond question need to be questioned for validity in my world.

You say

1) You will never be able to find any faultlines in Pakjab for India to exploit.I will explain why.The two largest castes in Pakjab are jats and rajputs.An additional 'hindu caste' which converted is Gujar.These form the bedrock of stability in Pakjab.Without them,theres no sh1tland.So ideally one would be looking for some sanity from these castes.As they were part of united punjab until 47.
<snip>
3)The paki history looks down on the jats and rajputs and glorifies araps,turks,persians.In the paki hierarchy the pashtuns,mongol,persian,syed,awan,gakkar rank higher than rajputs and jats.And the rajput and jat has to prove their muslimness by demonstrable anti-hinduness even though it means hating themselves.Thus the pakjabi even while sh1t scared of the pashtun still would like to be a scheming and more brutal version of pashtun.This is reinforced by mullahs who look west.The Pakis look upto Saudi barbaria,Iran and Central Asia.The pakis hate themselves.Look at the contrast with jutt sikhs.The jutt sikhs have great pride in punjab,its rivers.The Gurus were from Punjab.The Sikh misls was led by jutt sikhs.The empire of MRS though not wholly Sikh was largely Sikh.

Actually there is a problem in Pakjab. It has nothing to do with India - or at least it does not have as much to do with India as we might like to imagine.

Your post, and the posts made by many others tend to lump islam as one unified entity. It is unified only in its hatred for India and Kafirs, but what is happening in Pakjab is a social revolution that seems to have groups like the JuD behind it. I am still unable to figure out their exact successes and failures, but they have made inroads into Pakjabi society in many ways.

While all Pakis hate India and kafirs, and they always insisted that Pakistanis are "moderate". What they meant by "moderate" is their love for certain types of music and culture and certain traditions among other things. Lack of covering up, "Punjabi" festivals like baisakhi etc were genuinely followed and Sufi pirs had a tradition of music. It appears that Sufi pir descendants were also feudal landholders (at least in Sindh). I am trying to find out the case in Pakjab.

Gradually, very gradually islamist groups seem to have taken over Pakjab, mosque by mosque, madarsa by madarsa. The Sufi/Barelvi parts are being replaced by Wahhabandi - Deobandi Wahhabi islamic "purity" that purity has support from the "middle classes" and money from expatriates. It also appears that the JuD have successfully given an alternative to the "low caste" Pakistani Muslim. The low caste Pakjabi constitutes about 20-30% and as far as I know these low caste Muslims have been powerless and landless while being held within their traditional Sufi network. You have quoted a whole lot of Paki upper caste names - but my refs show that they constitute only about 40% of Pakjab's population. One thing we have totally ignored on BRF are the caste dynamics of Pakistan and how they affect society and how those caste dynamics are being changed by the JuD/LeT. We seem to have swallowed the "Islam has no caste" story hook line and sinker and accepted it as true. These are the details I am looking for. The details may not matter, but I need data to show why they don't matter.

I think it is important to understand what is happening in better detail. These changes are liked by some Pakis and disliked by others. Who dislikes them? Why?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 03 May 2012 22:27

shiv wrote: Or are they "usable" in any way? If so how can they be used?

Shiv ji , You have nailed it. Unfortunately most of the BRFites give in to their emotional rage and forget that without being objective it will be very hard if not impossible to gain a lasting victory over Pakistan. And I am 100% sure R.N.Kao would have thought on the same lines.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 May 2012 22:32

shiv, Am again x-posting to the new way of looking at TSP thread...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 May 2012 22:50

Are we crazy or what??

More news print for the udru media to spread anti India rhetoric?

Indian newsprint could help Pakistani dailies become cheaper

Amritsar: This is one fine print of a high in India-Pakistan ties. A consignment of 10 tonnes of newsprint from India was Thursday sent to Pakistan via the Attari-Wagah land border, and could actually help reduce the price of newspapers there.

The consignment was sent by the Amritsar-based Khanna Paper Mills for Pakistan's leading media houses - the Dawn and Jang groups.

This is the first time ever that Indian newsprint has been sent to Pakistan via the Attari land border, 30 km from here.

"Earlier the newsprint from India used to be sent via Dubai and the freight used to make Pakistani newspapers very expensive. Pakistan does not have newsprint factories of its own and newsprint is imported. We have just sent the first consignment of 10 tonnes," Khanna Paper Mills' director Suneet Kochhar told IANS.

The prices of daily newspapers in Pakistan go up to Rs.25 per copy compared to just Rs.2-3 in India.

"It is for the first time that newsprint has gone via the land border. We expect repeat orders from there soon. It makes business sense to get the newsprint from just 60 km away rather than import it via the sea route," Kochhar said.
Ads By Google

Newsprint has been taken out of the negative list of trade between both countries by the Pakistan government recently.

Newsprint industry sources say that the potential for newsprint export to Pakistan could be 2,000-3,000 tonnes annually in the future.

The Attari border saw the Integrated Check Post (ICP) being inaugurated on the Indian side which will enable greater cargo and passenger movement between both countries.

With Pakistan taking out a number of items from the negative list March this year and assuring that India will have the most favoured nation (MFN) status for trade by the end of 2012, trade between both sides through the land border is expected to increase manifold.

Till now, India used to export vegetables, fruits and livestock to Pakistan while importing cement, gypsum, dry fruits and other items.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 03 May 2012 23:05

The mystery to me is why these relationships are maintained given the assumption of uniform hatred from Pakistanis.

Most relations are maintained as following.

Before 1947, People converted to Islam (where they thought they could get economic advantage by people in power or majority) in Punjab but maintained their "Biradari" i.e. "Family Code" when a male converted, according to which they have to

1. Attend marriage ceremonies along with their women folks but cannot eat food as they are of different religion.
2. Attend death ceremonies.
3. Attend any other ceremonies that are deemed "fit" to maintain Biradari relations.

So!! when Hindus/Sikhs visited the ceremonies at their Muslim "Biradari" they did this

1. Give them lodging away from their women (which was usually at Village Gurdwara/Temple/etc).
2. Give them dry rations (Atta, Dal, sugar, Oil, sweets) that they could cook at Temple/Gurdwara.

So!! The "Biradari" communications were maintained till around 1970s when that older generation passed away. After 1970s the communications have stopped and there are no "Biradari relations" anymore.

I still remember Chaudhary Lahirdeen Bajwa of Narowal (our Biradari) sending letters (3-4 times a year) to my grand father (My father who knew how to read/write punjabi written in Urdu script would read and reply my grand father dictation to him ) telling him things about

1. Who born who died (even cattle), got married
2. Crops yield., milk yields, good/bad seeds/etc.
3. Political situations around country at that time.
4. and so forth.

After my grand father passed away in 1970s the communications broke up! I don't even know what/who is in that part of the land.

and BTW.. Chaudhary Lahirdeen Bajwa helped his whole Sikh side of the family to escape to India., which is probably the same story across Kapoors, Sethis, Aroras, Kohlis, etc.

partha · Post by **partha** » 03 May 2012 23:07

^
Amazing.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 03 May 2012 23:20

and BTW.. Bajwa's are to be found among Shias, Ahmadias, Sunnis (all varieties) and Christians too.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 03 May 2012 23:27

SBajwa, you should write a log or encyclopedia type of reference for Punjab history/cultural traditions. I would not have known this type of apolitical but insightful material except for it being recorded here.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 04 May 2012 01:24

what army of faithful is doing to the Baloch people of Lyari

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 04 May 2012 01:55

SBajwa wrote:and BTW.. Bajwa's are to be found among Shias, Ahmadias, Sunnis (all varieties) and Christians too.

OT but what SBajwa described is the ground-level sophisticated protocol that makes possible to achieve in an orderly way what we call unity in diversity or pluralism. Giving dry rations etc is consonant with 'swayampaakam' method of entertaining guests of a non-co-dining caste in traditional AP.

Old ways necessarily evolve and change but we need to be able to understand their nature if we are to have the intellectual tools to move forward.

Coming back to TSP and WKKs the protocol in that relationship is an urbanized model (in place of the rural one described br SBajwa) whose key feature is the reinforcement of subservience to a Muslim overlord by a Hindu Kuleen or upper class person, in exchange for being allowed a certain status.

IIRC, one senior poster on this topic has said, perhaps with some sarcasm, that we think the WKKs don't understand what they are doing, only we on BRF do. The part about not understanding the protocols might actually be truer than we realize. As a people we lack the skills or even exposure to anthropology, semiotics etc. required to make an informed study and critique of the RAPE-DIE communication. (more accurately, echoes of those skills are still there in the vernacular idiom which has mostly been deprecated in modern India.) Most of us are one dimensional hard science people. Generally people like that are oblivious to the importance of soft social sciences. So we don't even know what we don't know.

Many of the DIE by contrast do have these social sciences in their repertoire but inasmuch as they are locked into a politically rewarding position connected with their RAPE-subservience, they are not about to break ranks and give us the benefit of their protocol-analysis skills which could undermine that position of privileged vassal hood they have carved out for themselves over the centuries. Marxists are not wrong about class solidarity.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 May 2012 03:05

US back to square one on Pakistan

Localitis often afflicts diplomats on foreign assignments with classical symptoms of routinely defending actions of the host nation. Former American envoy to UN John Bolton frequently used this term to define the mindset in culture of US State Department at Foggy Bottom in Washington. Latest manifestation of this affliction was witnessed in Lahore on April 28 when 58-year old US Ambassador to Pakistan Cameron Munter castigated the local media for “misreporting “ US bounty of 10 million dollars on Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) amir Hafiz Muhammed Saeed. Addressing the Pakistani media after a sumptuous dinner hosted by American Business Forum in Lahore, Munter said there was no bounty on the head of Saeed for his role in the 26/11 Mumbai massacre. The diplomat, who is doing his first posting outside Europe in his entire career, clarified that the reward was for information leading to his arrest and not for taking him out in Osama bin Laden fashion. Munter’s statement was in sharp contrast to assertions of US Under-Secretary for Political Affairs Wendy Sherman, who informed the Indian government on April 2 about the 10 million dollar bounty over Saeed’s head with a telling repartee that America has not forgotten that six of its nationals were killed in 26/11 attacks.

While Home Minister P Chidambaram has made light of Munter’s remarks, it is nonetheless rather intriguing that the US position over Saeed has apparently shifted within a month. In fact, the shift is rather dramatic with Sherman coming out with guns blazing against Saeed and Munter petering out to a whimper against the aggressive Pakistanis. The simple question that props up is how come Pakistan political concerns over Saeed bounty had also become the concern of the Americans. In many ways, Munter statement is an American clean chit to Saeed as it tantamounts to saying that US did not have enough proof against Lashkar’s chief patron in 26/11 and hence the reward.

Extrapolate the argument further and we come back to oxymoronic good terrorist bad terrorist theory propagated in the past by a section of US state department. Munter essentially was conveying that for America, it was Taliban and Al Qaida which were the main problems in Afghanistan and not Hafiz Saeed, whose terror group has been mainly focused on India. The fact is that even before Munter’s statement, Indian diplomats participating a tri-lateral summit in Tokyo with US and Japanese diplomats last week made it clear to Americans that Pakistan was part of the problem and not solution in Afghanistan. It was also evident during the tri-lateral summit that there were serious differences between US State Department and Pentagon over Pakistan as the former looked at Islamabad and the ISI as partners and the latter as adversaries.

Given Saeed’s formidable clout with Pakistan government, Army and the ISI, Munter misdemeanor should perhaps be forgiven in LeT’s home territory in Lahore in Punjab. However, 26/11 facts as established by Saeed’s favorite student David Coleman Headley and arrested terrorists cannot be changed. Saeed orchestrated the 26/11 massacre with the help of ISI and Lashkar jihadists and is also responsible for terror attacks in Afghanistan with the help of Haqqani network. From targeting Danish cartoonist to launching attacks in US, Lashkar is a powerful non-state player with a global footprint. While Munter or his mentors at Foggy Bottom may be new to the terror show in the sub-continent, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton surely knows Pakistan and Saeed better if not the best.

India would be well advised to raise Munter’s clarification over Saeed with Clinton when she comes to New Delhi for her farewell trip next Tuesday. South Block must understand the mindset behind the latest US moves in Pakistan where even a canard that ISI help Obama target Osama bin Laden at Abbottabad on May 1, 2011 is not questioned by Washington. Perhaps US now feels that Pakistan has taken a turn for the better and needs to be pulled out from the morass or it feels that it can never exit out of Afghanistan without Islamabad’s support. In both cases, the assumption is wrong and may lead to frightening results in future.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 04 May 2012 03:53

Talat Hussain lays out the dynamics of US Pak relations. It seems that Marc Grossman has told Pakis in no uncertain terms to GUBO.

Misleading myths and bitter realities

...
The fact of the matter is that the recent meetings in Islamabad, with the US Special Envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan Marc Grossman and his team, were an unmitigated disaster. These were marked by exceptional stiffness in Washington’s stance and Islamabad’s inability to solicit even a vague assurance from the visitors that they were willing to take the high-flying terms and conditions set by parliament to re-engage with the US seriously.
...
Grossman minced no words. Various sources confirm that he was straight as a rod in saying no to “a simply-worded but clear apology”. The message was: “Whatever Washington has said so far is what there is going to be as far as an apology for the Salala incident is concerned”. Out-of-the-box efforts by Ambassador Sherry Rehman to somehow create a middle ground for the apology failed. These were too little, too late, and too detached from parliament’s stance. On the gridlock on Nato supplies, Grossman made it clear that Pakistan’s participation in the important upcoming Nato Summit was subject to the opening of the routes. The same precondition was attached to Islamabad getting some of the Coalition Support Fund (CSF) reimbursements. There was also disagreement on the total amount that Washington is expected to pay to Pakistan. The over-$3 billion cash crop that the government was hoping to reap was reduced to half and that, too, if the traffic carrying sinews of war against Afghans began to flow from Pakistan into Afghanistan. On drone attacks, the US position remained rigid. As the attack in Miramshah indicated, this policy, too, would continue. Washington is in no mood to pay heed to the “collective will of the people’s representatives” in Pakistan or to lend a serious ear to the hollow chest thumping by the country’s foreign office over this relentless breach of national sovereignty. To cut a long story short, what the US is telling Islamabad is that ‘you may not like it but you got to lump it’.
...
The rulers in Islamabad are seriously thinking of reopening the Nato supplies even without getting any apology from Washington — something that was offered two months ago but was postponed on Islamabad’s request just to make parliament’s recommendations look more credible.
...
There is little or no preparation to deal with the awkward situation of drones pounding targets inside Pakistan and Nato supplies moving smoothly through a formal agreement at the same time. Desperate for the CSF money and caught in its own trap of publicly debating and posturing on sensitive issues of foreign policy, the current lot in Islamabad has no action plan to stabilise the wonky equation with the US. There is not even a stopgap arrangement, much less a properly conceived game plan.
...
The president’s meeting with the Grossman team was incoherent and directionless. President Asif Ali Zardari’s grasp of serious matters was on astounding display as he rattled off his “worked view” without consulting anyone. The last leg of the Grossman tour ended on a grossly tame note, and most notepads in this meeting with the president remained unused. Nobody could figure out what was being said.

Washington has mapped the internal weakness of the government very well. The US knows that beggars will be losers if they try to become choosers. It is piling up pressure and tightening the screws. This is the ecosystem that is developing between Pakistan and the US. ...

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 04 May 2012 03:57

partition becomes real when indians say that pakistanis are not indians. the division becomes even worse when we say that we want the land, but the people are not us. the colonial powers would have succeeded in truly partitioning a 5000 year old civilization in a matter of 100 years. the same blueprint will be repeated again and again...

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 04 May 2012 05:31

For that the MMS generation needs to die off. That generation has memories of bhai chara with Paki Muslims.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 04 May 2012 05:45

The generation that really had Bhaichara with naPakis and had power/influence within their community has passed away since 1970s-80s. MMS was in his 20s in 1947, Nayar was in 30s, Khushwant Singh in 40s, Mani Shankar in his 20s and so forth., these guys just want to remember their good old "Youth" and they have too much influence inside government.

In any other country these people (MMS, Nayar, Aiyar,etc) would have zero influence to pursuade any electorate.

They are indeed suffering from the stockholm syndrome of "their muslim brethren saving them from bad rioters (not muslim rioters in their mind) in 1947" and thus want to pay them in any way for saving their lives.

So!! I have a hope that the generation (whenever they are in politics) that was born at least 20-25 years after 1947 will pull india out of the current doldrum. Rahul Gandhi has no clue about geo politics and he is not a leader with any vision (strategic or tactical).

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 04 May 2012 05:56

V_Raman wrote:partition becomes real when indians say that pakistanis are not indians. the division becomes even worse when we say that we want the land, but the people are not us. the colonial powers would have succeeded in truly partitioning a 5000 year old civilization in a matter of 100 years. the same blueprint will be repeated again and again...

This is land of mahabharatha, in which to protect dharma, closer relatives have been dealt with to establish what is right.

Nah... It's probably the last emotional appeal, just as Dhritharastra was hoping that more goodness would prevail on Pandavas after they had assembled in battlefield and he would allow evil to persist. There was no remorse that his sons would turn a new leaf, but was hoping that more and more goodness, the death wish would engulf Pandavas. Pakis are way beyond even that. The mad dog needs to be put down (for its own good and that of others) and the manner in which it goes down will be a choosing of its own.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 May 2012 06:17

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... accomplish#
Ay Ass Garib
What the ages couldn’t accomplish...

The hills of the Salt Range are amongst the oldest on earth, the valleys of the Salt Range amongst the most haunting on earth. In the Kahoon Valley, over which the fingers of the Almighty must have tarried as He went about shaping it, is a site sacred to the Hindu religion. This is the ancient temple complex of Kataasraj, rising over the waters of a deep and mysterious pond which has existed since the world as we know it – when the mountains rose and the seas receded – was first created.Lord Shiva, the most powerful deity in the Hindu pantheon, grief-stricken over the death of his beloved Sita gave vent to his tears and from his immortal eyes a teardrop fell at this spot and created the pool at Kataasraj. So the legend goes. A second teardrop fell in Pushkara near the holy city of Ajmer, creating another pool of holy water. From times past pilgrims from far and wide have come to both places, to bathe in the holy waters and seek salvation.
They need not come to Kataasraj any more for the first of Lord Shiva’s teardrops has finally dried up and much of the bottom of the pond – about which it was said that no one had ever plumbed its depths – lies exposed to profane view.Some of the buildings of the Sir Syed Government High School Katas are within the temple complex, where they have no business to be. Underneath one side of the temples is an ancient corridor leading from outside and falling into the lake. This was meant as a channel for rainwater. Right in the centre of this natural channel two septic tanks serving the school have been dug. The sense of form of government building departments is hard to beat.The Parthenon does not belong to the Greeks alone but to all of humanity, part of our common heritage. The Taj Mahal may be located in Agra but it belongs to the world. So it is with the temples of Kataas. They may be sacred to the Hindu faith but they are part of our civilisation too and it should have been up to us to safeguard and preserve them. Sloppy restoration work is one thing, and the marble tiles truly drive one to despair, but the drying of the pond is murder and sacrilege.And when they were being set up all the factory owners spun exceptionally long tales about where they would be getting their water supply from. The fiction prize should have gone to the Bestway owners for they said that their water supply would come – wait for this – the Khanpur Dam and the River Jhelum (their feasibility reports can be examined).But they set up their factories here because it was so convenient. The pool of holy water created by Lord Shiva’s teardrop was doomed from that moment as one of the factories was located just nearby. The aquifers underneath, the underground springs which were so bountiful and life-giving, this plant has sucked dry: death on the march, in the name of progress, but actually at the altar of greed and blind profit.The evening was beautiful, even a sinner like me drawn if not to prayer at least to something resembling contemplation. Yet the beauty was shattered by the competing loudspeakers and I was forced to think once again that in our very infancy as a nation we must have been the victims of a conspiracy to deprive us so completely of a sense of form and proportion.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 May 2012 06:19

This is all left of the pool at Katasraj

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 May 2012 06:21

l Won't let Lyari to become Swat, Malakand
http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-47348 ... ,-Malakand#

KARACHI: Interior Minister Rehman Malik has claimed that Taliban, Baloch Liberation Army (BLA), Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and other banned outfits are working in Lyari and that the situation is like that of Malakand.He was addressing at a press conference along with Chief Minister Sindh Qaim Ali Shah after chairing a meeting on law and order at CM House.The interior minister warned that the house in Lyari would be set on fire if any rocket launcher or hand grenade is recovered from there.Malik said they would not let Lyari to become Swat or Malakand.Whether it is Lyari or Liaquatabad or any other area of Karachi, action against outlaws would be taken without discrimination, Malik added.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 04 May 2012 06:36

Clashes in Kashmiri training camps in Pakistan

There have been a number of clashes reported as some Kashmiri militants in Pakistan have wished to return to India. Army sources say there are about 2,500 militants in various training camps in Pakistani Kashmir

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2012 06:39

cross post

I am getting a sort of mental picture of Pakistan that I will describe, but I am not sure exactly what is happening.

After 1947 India found itself saddled with a "social burden" of about 20-30% of the population belonging to what were later called scheduled castes and/or backward castes who were "socially backward" in every way. They were illiterate, poor, lacked access to water, education etc and faced discrimination. India as a nation reacted to this by creating opportunities for these people.What was done and how is OT but an open acknowledgement of the existence of these issues occurred in India. You can bet that at least some of these people are the backroom boys and girls in ISRO/DRDO and in the officers messes of our military regiments today.

Pakistan had exactly the same social structure with 20-30% "backward caste" people but their presence was ignored using the excuse "There is no caste in Islam". Unless you look inside the burqa you will not know whether there is a man or a woman there and whether the man is circumcised or not. Pakis never looked under the burqa of "There is no caste among Muslims"

So what has happened in Pakistan is that the "forward caste" Pakis - the Jats, Rajputs, Syeds etc have retained their land, wealth, education, parliament seat, education in a military academy etc, with the lower castes the Kamis, Chuhras etc and all those other names of carpenter caste, potter caste etc have never had teh opportunity to change their status. They remained landless and without power. That is how we found Pakis saying "We are tall, fair, rich and better off than Indians" the Pakis were referring to their own high caste background. These were the "moderate" RAPE whose power and privileges rested on a mass of disempowered low caste and middle caste people who were ignored. The low caste people were th landless bonded laborers, sharecroppers etc who were the property "in the right hand" of the upper Castes of Pakistan

In this day and age the situation could not last. the "low caste" people of Pakistan have escaped subjugation in many ways. The first thing they looked for was free education and madrasas gave them that. RAPE kids don't go to madrasas, its the low caste kids. The other thing that low caste Pakistanis did was to escape from bondage and go to the cities where a new middle class of people - were coming up. They changed their names and underwent a process called "Ashrafization" where they could no longer be recognized by their old names and caste occupations.

Organizations like the Jamaat-ud Dawa have played a big role in collecting charity (and criminal) funds to educate the low caste. the RAPE and rich were bypassed and the JuD has built up grassroots support. What the government of India did with free education, publicity and reservation is being done in a different way by teh JuD/LeT. the JuD/LeT are educating Pakistanis to overthrow their impure RAPE masters and then use islam to conquer India and other nations.

So where does the anti-Shia and anti-Barelvi/Sufi stuff fit into this picture. The link seems fairly straightforward. The Shia are a rich, educated landowning community who have been at the forefront of keeping the lower castes down. They will take a hit from the new Wahhabandi doctrine. The same holds true for the Barelvi and Sufi types. The Sufis were the "Opium of the masses". The Sufi social system (I am still trying to study it) did not help in uplifting the lower castes at all. It merely perpetuated age old caste differences, with the Sufi Pirs themselves being high caste and landed. They are tall getting hit.

Since the rich, landed, ruling RAPE class of Pakistan considered themselves the real Pakis, they hated India and claimed that they were moderate. To the western eye they were moderate secular jolly fellahs. But they were ignoring the lower castes. The lower castes of Pakistan are acquiring power via Islamist groups and have no sympathy for the westernized lives of the RAPE, their foreign/kafir books and movies and their uncovered women. And as the landed/RAPE get their asses singed, they are looking towards India.

Now how can we use this situation?

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 04 May 2012 06:39

India has hardened its stand on Siachen: Kayani

Islamabad: Pakistan's powerful Army Chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani on Thursday contended that India had hardened its position on the Siachen issue, especially compared to the situation in 1989, when the two sides were "close to a resolution".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2012 07:02

SBajwa wrote: Before 1947, People converted to Islam (where they thought they could get economic advantage by people in power or majority) in Punjab but maintained their "Biradari" i.e. "Family Code" when a male converted, according to which they have to

1. Attend marriage ceremonies along with their women folks but cannot eat food as they are of different religion.
2. Attend death ceremonies.
3. Attend any other ceremonies that are deemed "fit" to maintain Biradari relations.

So!! when Hindus/Sikhs visited the ceremonies at their Muslim "Biradari" they did this

1. Give them lodging away from their women (which was usually at Village Gurdwara/Temple/etc).
2. Give them dry rations (Atta, Dal, sugar, Oil, sweets) that they could cook at Temple/Gurdwara.

So!! The "Biradari" communications were maintained till around 1970s when that older generation passed away. After 1970s the communications have stopped and there are no "Biradari relations" anymore.

Sandeep your post is a pearl of gyan, but I have a slightly different sociological comment. The "direct relations" may have ended by 1970, but indirect links remain. the extent to which they remain is a mystery to us because we never ask people such as yourself or even Sindhis of my generation or my father's generation to record their views. We tend to assume that there is uniform hatred, and that the minority who don't think that way are traitors.

earlier, someone made the following comment

It has been repeatedly pointed out on this thread (by people like me) that Communities like Sikhs or Punjabi Hindus have the highest level of hatred for the Pakistan/Pakistanis as they have seen first hand what you have only read about. Any Sikh will accept a Dead Pakistani in lieu of visit to Pakistan.

No matter how true that comment might seem, it remains an assumption unles we actually talk to people and ask why relationships are being maintained. We don't do that. We assume that all Pakis are hated by all Indians which is the hallmark of a "cognitive blindness" in pisko-speak. "I think like this. I am normal and therefore everyone thinks like me"

About four years ago I met a local Bengaluru Muslim of "forward caste" background who had a Pakistan citizen wife. I met her too. She was in her mid twenties and remarked that she was the youngest daughter of a man who had moved from Bangalore to Pakistan. And now, in the 21st century, the man yearned for India and Bengaluru. He vowed that at least one of his daughters would go back to his "homeland". he had filled his children with glowing stories of how good the old life had been. Without doing a sociological study/poll of people we will never know how many younger Indians have been filled with a yearning to fulfil their fathers or grandfathers wishes to visit their old homelands in Sindh or Pakjab. We just assume that since pakis are terrorists all Indian hate Pakis. Unfortunately that hatred does not remove some deeper desires. Calling people traitors for feeling that way is a self goal based on the same type of ignorance and denial as "There is no caste in islam. There is no compulsion in Islam. Islam is a religion of peace."

We need more detail than we think we know. All conclusions we reach today can be overturned by old gyan that we missed and new developments based on the old gyan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2012 07:10

SBajwa wrote:and BTW.. Bajwa's are to be found among Shias, Ahmadias, Sunnis (all varieties) and Christians too.

Sandeep - "Bajwa" is upper caste in Pakistan. They are educated or own land. In an earlier era they may have converted to keep that land. These people are now under threat from "Talibanization" because their old, "easy" Punjabi culture is coming under threat. They will increasingly look to India is my prediction. Do you have any inside knowledge in this regard?

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 04 May 2012 07:44

40 killed, 111 hurt during ongoing operation in Lyari
http://www.samaa.tv/newsdetail.aspx?ID=47037&CID=1

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 May 2012 07:49

shiv wrote:
SBajwa wrote:and BTW.. Bajwa's are to be found among Shias, Ahmadias, Sunnis (all varieties) and Christians tooSandeep - "Bajwa" is upper caste in Pakistan. They are educated or own land. In an earlier era they may have converted to keep that land. These people are now under threat from "Talibanization" because their old, "easy" Punjabi culture is coming under threat. They will increasingly look to India is my prediction. Do you have any inside knowledge in this regard?

And these high caste Poaqtubbies should get support from this side of the border. This will blow the house of straws Djinna build for his Qabootars. And provide perfect excuse to nullify WKK/WMM gang and go after the rest of insects.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 May 2012 08:54

Jhujar wrote: And these high caste Poaqtubbies should get support from this side of the border. This will blow the house of straws Djinna build for his Qabootars. And provide perfect excuse to nullify WKK/WMM gang and go after the rest of insects.

Many land owning "forward caste" Pakjabis converted before 1947 in order to maintain their privileges. In fact if you go back to an earlier era, the formation of the Sikh Khalsa was specifically classless/casteless because caste had not left Sikhs until then. Clearly, converting to Islam in that earlier era would not only have ensured continued privileges as landowners under Islamic rule, but continued dominance over the lower castes covered by the naked burqa "there are no castes in Islam".

I just wonder how many last minute conversions there were in the immediate pre-partition and post partition period that helped maintain the privileges of land ownership? The Punjabis who converted were surely the most vociferous supporters of Pakistan and Islam in public, but were followers of "syncretic" Punjabi culture otherwise. That is what allowed intermingling of Hindu/Sikhs and Punjabi converts. I recall reading that Sikhs will not eat/are not supposed to eat halal meat (*). I don't know how far that is true, but this problem was resolved culturally because Sikh food in Gurudwara functions was vegetarian.

Those upper caste Pakjabis who converted to Islam to keep their privileges are now seeing a loss of freedom and culture with Islamization. What are they going to do? Are they going to cheerfully adopt Talibanism because that repesents the true religion they cheerfully chose? Or are they going to hanker for kafir practices where women and men dance at weddings uncovered?

*Added later. Sikhs are supposed to eat "jhatka" meat where the animal has been killed instantly and painlessly without ritual. That is not true for halal meat where the animal's throat is cut and bleeds to death.

dada · Post by **dada** » 04 May 2012 09:40

http://dawn.com/2012/05/04/india-has-to ... ys-kayani/

quote: "General Kya ..... appreciated their resolve to upkeep army’s proud tradition of not leaving a man behind, until humanly possible, regardless of cost" (Has he forgotten Kargil ?)

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 04 May 2012 10:38

Pakistan suicide attack kills 16: Officials

KHAR, Pakistan: A suicide attack targeting police killed at least 16 people, including five policemen, in Pakistan's northwestern tribal belt ...