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In June, 2011, when the IAF floated an international tender for parts/support for the IL-76/78s, they had specified in the RFP that they expect a 70% serviceability and never to fall below 50%. They provided for incentives if the serviceability was higher.
So, those numbers will be fairly different if other air crafts had similar expectations. %age wise it may not chance.
indranilroy wrote:you reminded me of a good lesson today ... I keep forgetting the importance of urban infrastructure development ... you couldn't be more right.
Even then I am an optimist ...
Need to convert you into a realist!! One of these days.
OK. Just as a FYI, India had around 30 Million passengers in 2006. In 2025 the airline demand is expected to grow to 300 Million. The current 30 Mil is supported by some 250 air crafts (give/take some), that has to grow to at least a 1000 air crafts by 2025 (demand grows by 10X, supply by 4). THAT figure is for the major metro areas - really does not take into account feeder routes. So, for feeder routes India will need - what about 500 smaller air crafts, by 2025. And IF one were to consider rural routes (kacha runways) the supply needs to grow even further.
Figures (were?) are there!! 6 years have gone. Your 15 years NEEDS to be compressed into 13 to meet 2025.
srai, I think another dozen or two C-130J-30 will be added. And apart from the initial 6 MRTT there is a possibility of another 12-18 will be inducted in this time frame.
Snehashis wrote:srai, I think another dozen or two C-130J-30 will be added. And apart from the initial 6 MRTT there is a possibility of another 12-18 will be inducted in this time frame.
IMO, with regards to the C-130J, it really depends on the MTA project. MTA and C-130J are in the same category. So if the MTA project delivers as promised within the timeframe (i.e. ready by 2016), then more C-130Js won't be ordered; it will stabilize at 12 units primarily for special operations role. I read somewhere that IAF has an option for 45 more MTA beyond the initial 45 requirements.
Agree on the MRTT, most likely another 6 more will be added on top of the 6 that will be added soon. This would bring the total AAR to 18 units.
Even Russia joined hands with the Italians to develop the SU-Superjet,which has EU engines and faster EU certification.A recent AWST had more news of its development,production.
>> if the MTA project delivers as promised within the timeframe (i.e. ready by 2016), then more C-130Js won't be ordered
the only way that will happen is if we license make the Embraer plane and call it MTA.
I am plenty tired of India sitting around a long dead corpse , invoking mantras and hoping it will suddenly come to life again...even the dogs have eaten the flesh down to the bone and wandered away to sleep under the banyan tree in the afternoon heat...yet we continue to punish ourself when a hot brazilian girl lounging in the cabana has invited us for lunch and swim and promised us a good time
The future of the Russian engine for passenger and transport aircraft in the United engine corporation associated with the program create a new generation turbofan engines PD-14 thrust 12 500 - 15 600 kg - the first in a family of advanced engines, in 9-18 ton thrust class, developed in a wide cooperative ventures with the leading role of the ODC Permo-skogo "Aviadvigatel."
PD-14 is carried out by two-shaft with a separate scheme expiration of the flow and direct (gearless) drive fan. All engines have a single family of gas-generator with an eight compressor high pressure, an annular combustion chamber and the low emission
two-stage high pressure turbine. Basic version this PD-14 will be equipped with one-step-gate torus with a diameter 1900 mm (retained size of the fan
PS-90A), a three-stage low pressure compressor and six low-pressure turbine.
The basic version of the PD-14 take-off thrust of 14,000 kg pre-assigned for use on aircraft MS-21-300. ordered modification of the liner MS-21-200 is proposed
complete PD-14A engine thrust 12,500 kg, and for extended version of MS-21-400 is intended modification tion of PD-14M with a high of 15 600 kg thrust.
According to the calculations, in terms of specific fuel consumption in cruise flight PD-14 is the level of their foreign competitors (PW1400G, LEAP-X), while having a slightly lower bypass ratio.
To be ready for testing by the middle of this year, and in 2013 planned to enter the stage of flight tests on a flying the laboratory. Certification of the basic version of PD-14- in 2014, which should provide access to the market in 2015-2016.
HAL Statement: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has signed a tripartite General Contract with United Aircraft Corporation -Transport Aircraft (UAC-TA), their Russian partner and their JV, Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd (MTAL) for the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) project.
HAL will carry out the design & development of its workshare of MTA at Aircraft R&D (ARDC) Centre at Bangalore while its Transport Aircraft Division (TAD) at Kanpur will manufacture the prototypes. Serial production will take place at Kanpur where dedicated facilities are being set up. HAL's other R&D Centres and manufacturing divisions will share development of systems & LRUs and manufacture of components, sub assemblies and composite structure. HAL will showcase its expertise in design of aircraft as well as systems, manufacturing & flight testing while jointly working with the Russian team in Moscow as well as in India.
The Indian and Russian governments had earlier signed an Inter Governmental Agreement for joint design, development & production of MTA on 50:50 sharing basis and had decided to form a JV between HAL, UAC-TA & Rosoboronexport to execute the project. The primary objective is to achieve self-reliance in design & development and production of aircraft of this size and also to manage the programme with international collaboration and a large number of global suppliers.
The aircraft will be designed for the roles of cargo/troop transportation; para-drop /air drop of supplies including Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System (LAPES). The joint effort seeks to meet a requirement of 100 aircraft for the Russian Air Force, 45 aircraft to the IAF and 60 for export. Total requirement for the present is 205.
The MTA project preliminary design will start immediately after signing the follow-up contract on preliminary design on which tripartite discussions have been concluded.
IAF sent a strong signal over the 572-island archipelago by conducting its first-ever landing of a C-130J 'Super Hercules' military transport aircraft at the Car Nicobar airbase on Monday, just days before the Navy commissions its first naval air station at Campbell Bay next week. It marks a big leap for IAF in projecting its strategic reach with the C-130J flying straight to the remote and far-flung island base directly from Hindon airbase on Delhi's outskirts.
Configured for special operations, the C-130J can swiftly transport combat-ready troops over long distances,'' said an officer. Under the overall island development plan'', which includes new naval air station at Campbell Bay, the existing runways at Campbell Bay and Shibpur are being extended, while three more (OTR) operational turn around bases for warships are being established in the archipelago. Moreover, new airstrips will come up at Kamorta and Little Andaman, while the existing two main runways at Port Blair and Car Nicobar are also being upgraded.
The Army, too, is moving to add another battalion to the 108 Mountain Brigade based there.
SaiK wrote:what ever structure they build must have 20ft above sea level and let the water through them.
elevated run ways, buildings, facilities.
Can't predict 20ft is enough ...
As a tsunami aftermath, the IAF made a decision not to base permanent squadrons at A&N. It will only detach flights there from time to time. However, the infrastructures are being built up to quickly allow deployment of reinforcements (troops, aircrafts, and other equipments) at short notice.
HAL Statement: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has signed a tripartite General Contract with United Aircraft Corporation -Transport Aircraft (UAC-TA), their Russian partner and their JV, Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd (MTAL) for the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) project.
HAL will carry out the design & development of its workshare of MTA at Aircraft R&D (ARDC) Centre at Bangalore while its Transport Aircraft Division (TAD) at Kanpur will manufacture the prototypes. Serial production will take place at Kanpur where dedicated facilities are being set up. HAL's other R&D Centres and manufacturing divisions will share development of systems & LRUs and manufacture of components, sub assemblies and composite structure. HAL will showcase its expertise in design of aircraft as well as systems, manufacturing & flight testing while jointly working with the Russian team in Moscow as well as in India.
The Indian and Russian governments had earlier signed an Inter Governmental Agreement for joint design, development & production of MTA on 50:50 sharing basis and had decided to form a JV between HAL, UAC-TA & Rosoboronexport to execute the project. The primary objective is to achieve self-reliance in design & development and production of aircraft of this size and also to manage the programme with international collaboration and a large number of global suppliers.
The aircraft will be designed for the roles of cargo/troop transportation; para-drop /air drop of supplies including Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System (LAPES). The joint effort seeks to meet a requirement of 100 aircraft for the Russian Air Force, 45 aircraft to the IAF and 60 for export. Total requirement for the present is 205.
The MTA project preliminary design will start immediately after signing the follow-up contract on preliminary design on which tripartite discussions have been concluded.
Possibly naive question: If the MTA preliminary design is going to begin now how come we have had a very consistent set of images and models put out on websites and in air shows since 2007 (since 2001 if you include this)? And since 2009 the external appearance has definitely been constant.
general consensus on BRF has been this is a dead duck due to russian unwillingness to devote money & finances for it. plus the design was already long frozen based on some ilyushin plane.
HAL would be quite interested because its gives them guaranteed new build and repair work without the need to design it or test it.
similar to the PAKFA - we will play no role in its design or testing even if it happens, the way I see it playing out.
We are going to have hardly any inputs as far as the design of the MTA goes. Same also with the engines for the plane.
We will only contribute towards some of the avionics and the cabin instrumentation etc.
would rather say that we should buy the entire C-27 assembly line from Italy and produce these in numbers.
Unkil has already cancelled the C-27 program and is not going to procure more of these. Given the state of the Economy in Europe, I don't think many of those nations are going to be spending big on a military transport. We might be able to get a good deal for tech transfer and assembly line transfer of the C-27 planes, if Unkil gives his nod. if we get the tech transfer, maybe we can tinker with it to improve its high altitude performance.
Add a dozen more C-130s apart from 100-150 C-27s and that should be decent replacement for the Avros and An-32s.
>> The upgraded An-32 are yet to be delivered in full and why do we need the An-32's to replace them already?
without caring for any particular product its a fact that a country of our size and frontage needs a much bigger air transport fleet . maybe even restarting AN32 production line in ukraine is an option if its reliable and costs are low?
I am actually more in favour of scrapping the MTA and just getting more C-130J (long and short models) without involving HAL in licensed production. if US has any C130 lying in the boneyard, they could also be refurbished with new engines and avionics and put to use - all need not be shiny desi-JSOC std like the initial ones we got.
Singha wrote:general consensus on BRF has been this is a dead duck due to russian unwillingness to devote money & finances for it. plus the design was already long frozen based on some ilyushin plane.
HAL would be quite interested because its gives them guaranteed new build and repair work without the need to design it or test it.
similar to the PAKFA - we will play no role in its design or testing even if it happens, the way I see it playing out.
This is exactly what HAL wants, work without responsibilities.
if the above list is correct there should be atleast 100+ C-130 of various models lying in AMARC inventory. we could potentially round up around 40 of the best ones, get them refurbished, fitted with the latest engines, a austere analog cockpit, weather radar, CMDS and put them to work for another 15-20 yrs on delivery. they seem to last forever.
to round off the deal get 40 new build C-130J a mix of short- and long- per IAF requirements.
the ground infra and simulator training is now already getting place.
Isn't it too late to be starting the development process for a Manned cargo aircraft ? It is highly unlikely if MTA is deployed before 2025 i.e if it is successful.
HAL/DRDO/NAL should instead focus(financially and technically) on unmanned vehicles including those meant for hauling cargo.
whatever be the std of the older C130 cockpits, its unlikely to be any worse than the AN32 and IL76 cockpits. should be easy transition for our transport pilots.
we dont need another project dragging on until 2025 as HAL need to focus on key projects like 12t helicopter and AMCA.
Don't we need NAL/ADA or other agencies to be a part of the deisgn phase? The IJT is already suffering under HAL's leadership. HAL just needs to be the production agency. The design houses need to be separated from HAL under their own umbrella. They are the ones who should be signing the main agreement along with IAF and HAL as partners.
darshhan wrote:Isn't it too late to be starting the development process for a Manned cargo aircraft ? It is highly unlikely if MTA is deployed before 2025 i.e if it is successful.
HAL/DRDO/NAL should instead focus(financially and technically) on unmanned vehicles including those meant for hauling cargo.
On the contrary this should be a competition open to the private sector as well as NAL/DRDO --a level playing field.
Am in agreement with those pushing for a C-27/Embraer/refurbished C-130 option. The C-130 option is analogous to buying used Toyota Corollas for a taxi fleet: you really can't go wrong. However operating costs could be an issue.
HAL signing it is a sure sign where things are headed. they will aim to license make it , service it and build a few spare parts for guaranteed jobs and revenue.
ADA/NAL come in the picture only when some original design is to be produced.
darshhan wrote:Isn't it too late to be starting the development process for a Manned cargo aircraft ? It is highly unlikely if MTA is deployed before 2025 i.e if it is successful.
HAL/DRDO/NAL should instead focus(financially and technically) on unmanned vehicles including those meant for hauling cargo.
On the contrary this should be a competition open to the private sector as well as NAL/DRDO --a level playing field.
Am in agreement with those pushing for a C-27/Embraer/refurbished C-130 option. The C-130 option is analogous to buying used Toyota Corollas for a taxi fleet: you really can't go wrong. However operating costs could be an issue.
You are not saying anything contrary to what I have said . I did not say anything about participation. I am fully confident that India can develop such an aircraft , with or without Russia's cooperation.
My question is " Is it not better to allocate resources to projects like UCAVs/Cargo UAVs/AMCA etc ".
What is the point of developing a poor man's C-130 by 2025(if there are no delays) ? Instead if we are able to deploy a cargo UAV by 2030 , now that would be a paradigm shift. That would be something different , a Trail Blazer as some would say.Just like C-130 was in 1950's.
. I did not say anything about participation. I am fully confident that India can develop such an aircraft , with or without Russia's cooperation.