Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

[Roperia]

Youtube video India's first newsprint consignment enters Pakistan

Amritsar, May 04 (ANI): In a breakthrough development for trade between India and Pakistan, the first consignment of 10 metric ton of Indian newsprint entered Pakistan on Thursday (May 03) through the Attari-Wagah Integrated Check Post (ICP). Khanna Paper Mills (KPM) of Amritsar sent its first truck to Pakistan's leading dailies-The Dawn and the Jang Group. Till now, Pakistan had been receiving newsprint via Dubai for which they had to pay a high transportation price. With the opening of the ICP and the inclusion of newsprint in the Positive List, the material can now be sent directly to Pakistan.

Now Baki newspapers will be printed on paper supplied by an Indian kafir.

[Aditya_V]

Youtube video India's first newsprint consignment enters Pakistan

Amritsar, May 04 (ANI): In a breakthrough development for trade between India and Pakistan, the first consignment of 10 metric ton of Indian newsprint entered Pakistan on Thursday (May 03) through the Attari-Wagah Integrated Check Post (ICP). Khanna Paper Mills (KPM) of Amritsar sent its first truck to Pakistan's leading dailies-The Dawn and the Jang Group. Till now, Pakistan had been receiving newsprint via Dubai for which they had to pay a high transportation price. With the opening of the ICP and the inclusion of newsprint in the Positive List, the material can now be sent directly to Pakistan.

Now Baki newspapers will be printed on paper supplied by an Indian kafir.

May the paper exported should be the recycled variety.

[jamwal]

Pak-born American teenager pleads guilty in terror case
A Pakistan-born US teenager today pleaded guilty to conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists and offering assistance to a woman called ''Jihad Jane'' who was planning to wage a jihad in Europe.

[arun]

Clearly the US has not fully understood the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar message which was quoted in a Reuters wire report datelined April 27, 2012 that drone strikes were not welcomed :

“On drones, the language is clear: a clear cessation of drone strikes”

Quote From Here.

A second visit in a week by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s National Bird.

Clearly the US has not fully understood the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar’s message quoted above:

Officials: 2nd US drone strike in a week kills 8 suspected militants in NW Pakistan

How does this second visitation in a week by the National Bird of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan fulfil General Ashfaq Kayani’s demand “that others will have to keep in mind our sovereignty, pride and honour”?:

Pakistan army believes in 'strong democratic system and its continuation': Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani

"We think that others will have to keep in mind our sovereignty, pride and honour," he added.

Well even a prostitute is entitled to honor and pride unless paid for.

[shiv]

Actually there may be some scope that inner-caste bonds between the two Punjabs could help in securing some sort of change in the way of thinking in Pakistan.
<snip>
That is probably the reason the Punjabi castes may not be able to make much headway in toning down the anti-Indian rhetoric in Pakjab. It is only a 'Aman ka Tamasha' between a few individuals.

Anything that happens on earth happens because it was bound to happen and there was no other go. If ever there is a toning down of anti-India rhetoric it will only occur if the people who do that have no choice. If Paki survival demands shrill anti-India rhetoric, that is what they will get. If some groups feel their survival will depend on stopping that rhetoric, they will stop.

But I don't really care whether there is a toning down or not. If its going to happen its going to happen. What I am interested in finding out is how long the Pakistani party will last.

The Pakistani party as I see it was as follows:

Pakistani was a cosy united Islamic country dead set against injustices of the world like India and communism. Pakistani low caste people were docile and not prone to revolution. They worked side by side with the wealthy to fight the evils of the world. And the wealthy got paid by America while the low caste/poor knew that Allah willed it for them to be as they are.

Right now Pakistan is still fighting the evil India which must be defeated, but unfortunately it is America that has gone all weird. America is demanding that Muslims should fight Muslims. They are paying the upper castes to do that. The upper castes take the money but the lower castes are now organized under Islam and do not think that they should kill Muslims. They feel that both America and India must be fought for being anti-Muslim.

The Paki upper castes agree with the lower castes on these sensitive Islamic issues but they are still taking money from America and are not openly fighting America. And America continues to pay them and demand value for money. So the lower castes have begun to fight the upper castes who are doing America's job. Lower castes want to fight all kafirs but upper castes say India is the enemy and is not declaring USA as enemy. By doing that the Paki upper castes are joining the kafirs and are coming under attack from the lower castes.

The India question is now peripheral. India is the eternal enemy. What will Paki upper castes do now?

If they join the fight against America the money and arms may dry up because even stupid American kafirs sometimes develop brains. If they don't join the fight against America the lower castes will mutiny and Qadrify them.

If you were a high caste, land owning Paki, what would you do?

[harbans]

Porkistan is a Failed State-Dana

WASHINGTON:Influential American Congressman Dana Rohrabacher has told Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Gilani that his country is a failed state and no amount of US aid money will ever change that.


"It is becoming increasingly clear to Members of the US Congress that Pakistan is a failed state and no amount of US aid money will ever change that," Rohrabacher wrote in a letter to Gilani.

In his letter, Rohrabacher condemned a recent police action that resulted in the death of four Baluchi men.

"Pakistan's future will remain bleak and marred by political violence as long as the Pakistani government and military continue to deny ethnic groups within Pakistan a right to self-determination," he wrote.

"American aid money for Pakistan will dry up. It is clear that the Pakistani military and intelligence services have for years diverted money intended to help the people of Balochistan, and the other provinces of Pakistan, into funding terrorism and buying weapons to repress their own people," Rohrabacher said.

[johneeG]

Sandeep, Shiv et al, is it possible that the newly converts to Islam under duress during the partition and immediately after partition are the ones who hate the Hindus/Sikhs (the faiths they converted from) the most? There is a saying amongst us UP-wallahs that the new Muslim shouts Allah's name the loudest. What is the reason for this targeted hate? Is the hate faith-imposed (prove your allegiance or else) or is it based on a "sense of betrayal" the new convert felt that he was not protected by his original faith? Remember that in the early days of Qasim (pbuh), converts to Islam under duress promptly returned to the faiths of their forefathers when the arabs left.

Saar,
I think the phenomenon of a new convert being more zealous/radical/hater compared to the old converts is very common. There is a similar saying in Telugu also, although not about muslims.

I think the behaviour can be explained thus: The new convert had insecurities on two fronts:
a) He still feels certain connection/attraction to his old affiliation.
b) He is still unsure of the new affiliation and/or is trying to establish his credentials in the new community.

These two insecurities force the nee convert to become more radical/zealous/hater than the older converts. The new convert is trying to quell his own emotional/mental connections/attractions to the old affiliation. He is simultaneously trying to prove his credentials and secure the trust of his new colleagues.

This phenomenon can be observed not only in religious converts but in any new convert of any ideology. But, this phenomenon is observed in voluntary converts, not in the conversions under duress.

I think your question is why did not new converts return to their old fold just like the aftermath of Qasim's assaults?
I am not very knowledgeable about it, but I'll take a guess. My guess is that the Qasim could not hold on to the power for long. Once the people had the choice(and they got the choice relatively early), they promptly converted back. But, after partition, the new converts continued to live under the rulership of the pakis. And the new converts had to live under the pakis for a long time.

But, since these new converts were converted under duress, I won't think they will behave in a zealous/radical manner.

I think the 'new convert' phenomenon will be better reflected by the progeny of the people who are converted under duress. The children of the people who were converted under duress would have all the insecurities of a 'new convert'.

On another note, paki and arab relations are also explained by this 'insecurity of new convert' theory. The 'new convert'(paki) is trying to gain the respect of the 'old convert'(arab).

[JohnTitor]

Now Baki newspapers will be printed on paper supplied by an Indian kafir.

Its ok, because it will be used to tell the bakis how big infidels we all are .. so that will cleanse the paper of its kafir-ness

[g.sarkar]

Youtube video India's first newsprint consignment enters Pakistan
Now Baki newspapers will be printed on paper supplied by an Indian kafir.

Do not worry, eat curry. As they say no good deed will go unpunished. Pakistan will pay India back with freshly printed Indian currency from their own printing machines.
Gautam

[RCase]

If you were a high caste, land owning Paki, what would you do?

Aren't the high caste, land owning Pakis (RAPES) in collusion with the army? Haven't they always cared about keeping the party going, even if they had to resort to mass culling?
The army has always shown that they are willing to use crude, brute force to cull their civilian populace, be it BD, Baluchistan or Northern Areas.

They have always shown a willingness to sell themselves at the expense of their country. Be it to US, UK, China, KSA etc. Could it be that all this Aman-Tamasha is because there are limited buyers to whom the RAPEs can sell themselves any more?

[johneeG]

If you were a high caste, land owning Paki, what would you do?

Aren't the high caste, land owning Pakis (RAPES) in collusion with the army? Haven't they always cared about keeping the party going, even if they had to resort to mass culling?
The army has always shown that they are willing to use crude, brute force to cull their civilian populace, be it BD, Baluchistan or Northern Areas.

They have always shown a willingness to sell themselves at the expense of their country. Be it to US, UK, China, KSA etc. Could it be that all this Aman-Tamasha is because there are limited buyers to whom the RAPEs can sell themselves any more?

I think these land owning high caste pakis have been playing the role of dalals(brokers) of power for a long time. They have been the go-betweens the higher-ups and lower-downs(masses). The higher-ups have changed over the time. These people are not ready to do a single day's honest work. They just want to get the cash and have a blast. They deceive both the higher-up(rulers) and the lower-downs(masses), to maximize their commission. First, it was mughals, then the brits, and then the US. They are hoping that next it will be China.

They are loyal to their own interests only. They will stab anyone(including their benefactors) for even short-term gains. Their allegiance can never be relied upon.

The most important point about them is that they always side with the winners and/or highest bidders.

The countries that want to hire the (or afford) services of these dalals is shrinking by the day. Ultimately, these brokers will offer their services to Indian elite. I think they are already in close affinity with the Indian power elites but that is not enough to fund the royal lifestyles of these dalals. The dalals will have to offer more, which they will do(as their desperation increases).

[Singha]

hindi TV channels are showing the passport pix of 5 lashkar pakis who did recon of oil facilities in gujarat and then have gone to ground. expectation is they want to target some oil facility and create a huge blaze.

none of the sikular english channels have any play on this. arnab goswami is conducting debates on chennai on judicial activism vs executive.

[Prem]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... 9932.story
Indo-Pak bilateral trade may reach $10b in 3 years

Pakistan and India bilateral trade is expected to reach $10 billion during the next three years, a top official said.
The Most Favoured Nation status to India and opening of bank branches by early next year will pave the way for direct trade between the neighbours and reduce the cost of import through third country."Bilateral trade may reach $6 billion mark within a year or two as the two nations act fast on easing visa rules, removing non-tariff barriers and reducing the negative list," Tariq Puri, chief executive of Trade Development Authority of Pakistan, told Pakistan and India official bilateral trade stood firm around $2.7 billion and heavily tilted in New Delhi's favour. The MFN status to India by year-end may prove the 'game-changer' that will drastically reduce illicit trade through third countries."The exchange of goods through third-country will drastically drop and cut the Pakistan import bill by 20 to 30 per cent because of reduction in import costs," Puri said.Pakistan's federal cabinet approved a negative list of 1,209 for India, which will be phased out in three installments by December 31 this year, after the grant of MFN status to India. The MFN status will mean India can export 6,800 items to Pakistan, up from around 2,000 at present. "We started the process to normalise the trade with India last year in April. Both the countries have adopted a well-structured and calibrated approach and made steady progress," he said adding that next secretary-level talks are due to held in Pakistan this month.

[shiv]

If you were a high caste, land owning Paki, what would you do?

Aren't the high caste, land owning Pakis (RAPES) in collusion with the army? Haven't they always cared about keeping the party going, even if they had to resort to mass culling?
The army has always shown that they are willing to use crude, brute force to cull their civilian populace, be it BD, Baluchistan or Northern Areas.

They have always shown a willingness to sell themselves at the expense of their country. Be it to US, UK, China, KSA etc. Could it be that all this Aman-Tamasha is because there are limited buyers to whom the RAPEs can sell themselves any more?

I am going to leave out the Aman ki Tamasha part of the question because I cannot try to answer it by talking about Pakis but your question "Aren't the high caste, land owning Pakis (RAPES) in collusion with the army?" is an interesting one - and I have no straight answer.

In general the answer would be "yes", but the Pakistan army itself has more than two castes. This is where my reply has to delve into speculation based on circumstantial evidence. The officer class of the army and the RAPE see eye to eye. They are from the same RAPE social class, and the RAPE social class come mainly from the upper castes. The rank and file of the army can have many lower castes in them but almost none from the "Scheduled castes" (who are mostly Hindu anyway, but there are Muslims too.

In Pakistan there is a huge gulf between the future that a landed upper caste child can expect versus the future for a rural, non land owning lower caste Pakistani. The wealthy upper caste will sent a son to a private school or a state run school and they will learn English, Pakistan studies etc. If you look at the minimum requirements for entry into the Pakistan Military Academy in Kakul - the educational requirements clearly do not favor a madarsa education. But a RAPE class can get in.

For the lower castes in Pakistan, the Army did offer a way to escape caste, but not as officers simply because the lower castes do not have the education opportunities to get into the officer cadre. If lower caste Pakis get education at all it will not go every far and it might be an LeT or LeJ run madarsa education. That is why the upper caste lower caste social split of Pakistan probably exists in the army as well. Mumtaz Qadri is a classic example of this.

Aman ki Tamasha may well be an attempt by the upper caste Pakis to garner support for their "moderate" lifestyles where burqa is not mandatory and girls are allowed to go to school.

[shiv]

I read a very interesting article yesterday in the Paki Tribune by an Aakar Patel who comes up with the following theory. He says that in Punjab, conversions to islam were more likely in the people whom the brits called as "martial" races and less likely among the mercantile castes. He goes on to speculate that when Punjab was divided 65:35 with Pakistan getting 65% - the Pakis got all the martial mussalmans who converted while India retained the mercantile castes (eg Khatris). That explains the difference in economy of Punjab in India and the mad martial behavior with little mercantile sense among Pakis.

The article is here:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/318092/of-p ... ial-races/

I was initially skeptical about this theory on some counts, because I have been reading that conversions were done "agricultural" castes like Jats. But the man may not be wrong. Only the Arain were "agricultural" but not martial acc to the Brits.

If you read about "Punjabi culture of Pakistan" they always claim that there is a predominance of the military and agriculturists among Pakjabis. No surprise to see Pakis, dominated by Pakjabis, talking like this. I dug a little deeper into this and found that the British did favor handing land in Punjab to the "martial" types who helped them as well as to the "agricultural castes". In fact most of the landowning castes of Pakjab like Jat aand Rajput also come under the British classification "martial". (Interestigly the British declassified Marathas as "martial" after 1857. So take that you cissy Marathas! - but I digress)

[Prem]

How big is this Poaq Gup
Higher Education in India

200 new universities and 40 new high-level institutes. Nine additional IITs will also be established, bringing the total number of IITs to 16. This was stated by Indian human resource development minister Kapil Sibal in the Lok Sabha recently. A sum of Rs800 billion, the biggest-ever allocation, is being set aside in the 12th five-year-plan of India (2012-2017) to propel it into a strong knowledge-based economy. India has presently 17 percent of its youth between the ages of 17 of 23 enrolled in the higher education sector (as opposed to Pakistan’s 7.6 percent). It plans to increase this enrolment to 30 percent of the same age group by the year 2030 (Chetan Chauhan, The Hindustan Times, April 25). India decided to replace its University Grants Commission with a stronger federally funded organisation, National Commission of Higher Education and Research. This was approved by the Indian Cabinet in December 2011.
The recent steps taken by India are the result of a detailed presentation made to the Indian prime minister in July 2006 by Prof C N R Rao about the threat posed by the remarkable transformation underway in higher education in Pakistan. In an article entitled “Pak threat to Indian science,” Neha Mehta wrote: “Pakistan may soon join China in giving India serious competition in science.” (The Hindustan Times on July 23, 2006.) The progress made by the higher education sector in Pakistan in the last decade is reflected from the increase in enrolment from 276,000 students in 2003 to 803,000 in 2011, increase in number of universities and degree-awarding institutes from 59 in the year 2000 to 137 by 2011, and an increase in international research publications from only 636 in 2000 to 6,200 in 2011. The PhD output too underwent an explosive growth. During the 55-year period from 1947 to 2002, only 3,281 PhDs had been granted by all our universities (a shocking average of about 3-4 PhDs per university per year)! During the subsequent eight-year period from 2003 to 2010, this number was exceeded and 3,658 PhDs were granted. ( Mushy's Phd Scheme) There was maximum emphasis on quality, as all PhD theses were evaluated by at least two top experts in technologically advanced countries before approval.

[shiv]

Can someone take a shot at this question:

Exactly what is it about the Taliban that so called moderate, liberal Pakistanis do not like? Anyone know the answer/s based on lurking on Paki liberal sites?

[pgbhat]

From Hafeez Khan to Imran Khan ---- Dr. Manzur Ijaz.

[brihaspati]

Can someone take a shot at this question:

Exactly what is it about the Taliban that so called moderate, liberal Pakistanis do not like? Anyone know the answer/s based on lurking on Paki liberal sites?

Because Taliban are agents of USA, Israel and India? [commonly expressed blog opinion:]

Here is a piece on "Pakistani liberalism" :
http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2012/0 ... -be-saved/

Khan’s popular support reveals another stark reality: Pakistan’s liberals are a tiny minority, comprised mostly of secular urban elites. In a controversial, important essay, British scholar and Pakistan expert Anatol Lieven inveighs upon the “tragedy of Pakistani liberalism.” Lieven’s recent book, Pakistan: A Hard Country, has been widely received as one of the more sympathetic, clear-eyed accounts of Pakistan’s plight written by an outside observer. But Lieven has little time for the argument he ascribes to Pakistani liberals (and one I, an Indian national, often also parrot) that Pakistan’s course will be righted simply when its powerful military returns to the barracks. There is a deeper cultural malaise, says Lieven:

The inability of many Pakistani liberals to face Pakistani reality is because they and many of their ideas on the one hand represent a tiny section of the Pakistani population, but on the other, the contemporary hegemony of democratic ideas in the world (for the moment at least). British-derived South Asian traditions of democracy and the development of Western liberalism over the past 70 years or so all compel them not only to present themselves as democrats but actually to believe that they are democrats.

This was not always true of liberalism. In the 19th Century, liberals in countries like Spain, Italy and parts of Latin America where the large majority of the population was made up of conservative Catholic peasants were absolutely clear that they were NOT democrats, but an enlightened elite that derived its right to rule from the superiority of its ideas, the delivery of economic growth, and the creation of career opportunities for the middle and lower middle classes that had been blocked under the old “feudal” domination; and that the power of the masses was to be contained by a mixture of a highly restricted franchise and liberal control over the armed forces – which on occasions were used ruthlessly to suppress mass peasant protest from below.

Pakistan may have a very enlightened elite, but that elite wields precious little control over the real institutions of power in the country. Nor does it seek such domineering influence. But that isolation — and impotence — means that, a year after Taseer’s assassination, the same dark shadows hover over Pakistan’s soul.

[brihaspati]

shiv ji,
you might find some interesting pointers in the following :
http://www.leftturn.org/Covering-Pakistan

Second, it’s not all “Talibanization.” Of late, the nebulous term “Talibanization” has become a catch-all phrase for all forms of overt religiosity or political Islam that many liberal Pakistanis view as harbingers of the Taliban. While several Islamist political parties do exist, they have never managed to win more than a fraction of the vote. And, the young urban youth, drawn to the political ravings of celebrities like the political commentator Zaid Hamid, are more self-styled nationalists. They want to preserve the state, not do battle with it, and that puts them at odds with both the tactics and ideas of the Taliban.

Most of the Islamist groups inside Pakistan, which number in the hundreds, are not the Taliban. They network with each other, but also disagree. As far as the Taliban are concerned, Pakistan’s Army distinguishes between the “good” Taliban and the “bad” Taliban. The former include the Afghan Taliban, which the United States produced in collusion with Pakistan. Pakistan’ s Army still has its own uses for them from Kashmir to India, and linkages still exist. The Wikileaks “Afghan Diaries” provide ample proof. The Pakistani Taliban or TTP have launched attacks on the Pakistani Army, but the status of their members as “good” or “bad” Taliban appears to vary.

This is the major representative opinion of the leftist, liberal Pakistani. They want to downplay "Taliban", try rather to explain away the phenomenon under some other colour - like anti-imperialism, nationalism etc and the totally ignore the underlying factor inside the society which allows the gov and military to "cynically use religion" [according to the author earlier in the piece].

The leftist liberal attitude is more like denial or downplay of the Taliban phenomenon, not hatred.

[surinder]

I mean its shameful that Indian Punjabis have allowed their own rich culture to slip out and be claimed by these dung filled frauds. They have given up the Punjabi language for Urdu, and are in the process of killing Punjabi culture even as they claim great prominence as being "tall, fair, handsome, Indo Aryan" and associated with prominent Punjabis from India.

Shiv, truth be told there is more to the story. While Paki Punjabis have nothing but disdain for their language, and ditching for Urdu. The Indian Punjabis, mostly Hindus, have the same disdain and are ditched it for Hindi.

As a matter of fact, the only group of people who have kept Punjabi culture and language with esteem are Sikhs. They are the cold storage of Punjab.

Sorry to say, but our own Punjab is quite rotten too.

[arun]

A rather delusional article in The News.

Going by the article it would seem that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has convinced itself that an apology will be forthcoming from the US for the Salala incident despite the admitted leverage available to the US based upon its ability to provide the “much needed financial assistance” sought by the Islamic Republic and the ability of the US to create a “favourable disposition from the world fiscal institutions” towards the fund starved Islamic Republic :

The US apology will also pave the way for exchange of high level visits from both sides. The much needed financial assistance from the United States and clearance of dues under various heads against Washington along with favourable disposition from the world fiscal institutions would be available to Pakistan.

From Here:

Pakistan, US working quietly on text of Salala apology

[shiv]

shiv ji,
you might find some interesting pointers in the following :
http://www.leftturn.org/Covering-Pakistan


This is the major representative opinion of the leftist, liberal Pakistani. They want to downplay "Taliban", try rather to explain away the phenomenon under some other colour - like anti-imperialism, nationalism etc and the totally ignore the underlying factor inside the society which allows the gov and military to "cynically use religion" [according to the author earlier in the piece].

The leftist liberal attitude is more like denial or downplay of the Taliban phenomenon, not hatred.

WOW!!! Good call!

This article rings all sorts of bullshit bells in my mind!!

BRFites will love this quote:

It appears irrelevant to many policymakers, journalists, and people in the US generally that Pakistan has, for example, peasants, unions, working-class politics, LGBTQ organizations, feminist groups—that, in short, the overriding ethic of Pakistani democracy and resistance movements is secular.

- I am surprised the author does not mention fashion shows in Lahore and the enactment of "vagina monologues" in Karachi and evidence of moderate, progressive, secular Pakistan

The woman does not even have her facts right - she bullshits shamelessly:

In 1974, after Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, then Prime Minister of Pakistan, had lost the country’s east wing..

huh??

[shiv]

Here is a piece on "Pakistani liberalism" :
http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2012/0 ... -be-saved/

This was not always true of liberalism. In the 19th Century, liberals in countries like Spain, Italy and parts of Latin America where the large majority of the population was made up of conservative Catholic peasants were absolutely clear that they were NOT democrats, but an enlightened elite that derived its right to rule from the superiority of its ideas, the delivery of economic growth, and the creation of career opportunities for the middle and lower middle classes that had been blocked under the old “feudal” domination; and that the power of the masses was to be contained by a mixture of a highly restricted franchise and liberal control over the armed forces – which on occasions were used ruthlessly to suppress mass peasant protest from below.
[/b]
Pakistan may have a very enlightened elite, but that elite wields precious little control over the real institutions of power in the country. Nor does it seek such domineering influence. But that isolation — and impotence — means that, a year after Taseer’s assassination, the same dark shadows hover over Pakistan’s soul.

Interesting. It means that Pakistani liberals are like the minority Spanish liberals, but are frauds in claiming that they are democratic. They are hardly democratic because real democracy in Pakistan would wipe away these fake Paki liberals in a millisecond.

To me it is increasingly looking like caste, and the privileges of caste based land ownership and retention are the real elephant in the room in Pakistan. The RAPE "liberals" of Pakistan are are merely children of this wealthy group deluded into thinking that they represent the "real" Pakistan

[surinder]

From 1860-1900 deforestation in India is well studied: four main factors
(1) Brit desire to bring land under taxation - agricultural land was taxed more
(2) Wood for railway sleeper and shipbuilding for Royal Navy. In britland proper they had exhausted oak by 1700's. So Indian saal/teak was in great demand for "war effort" and "national interest". Canada and India were the main ship-building wood suppliers.
(3) Private contractors for logging and commercial farming under European lessees.
(4) punitive clearing of habitats of "criminal tribes" [this is well documented]

Dalhousie and Gibson are often cited as having promoted conservation and afforestation - but their eye was primarily on afforestation with teak - needed by the imperialists, and other items for economic exploitation like eucalyptus or sandalwood or forest products. Between the two wars Punjab is supposed to have been partially re-forested, but again timber needs for war and war expenses removed a lot of these trees from Punjab too [as in other parts of the country].

Brihaspati, Does your research indicate that deforestation in Punjab by the British had the aim of "punitive clearing of habitats of "criminal tribes""?

[surinder]

+ Tandon in his book, the Punjabi Century, gives interesting examples of Musliims and Hindu/Sikh kept relationships. Hindu/Sikhs did not eat at Musliims, so they were given raw food to take home. Musalims neve did have this restriction, so they did eat. Miusilim women would often take off purda when the entered Hindu/Sikh mohallas.

[Raja Bose]

From Here:

Pakistan, US working quietly on text of Salala apology

Will the apology itself also be silent, just like those silent majority in Pakistan who do not support the Taliban and are not extremist in their world view.

Or perhaps US intends to use sign language and mime to apologize, with Paki analysts playing dumb charades

[pgbhat]

unkil's silent apology to pacquis silent majority.

[wig]

meanwhile-Ajmer Sharif yet to get donation from zardari

Nearly a month after Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari announced a donation of Rs 5 crore for the Ajmer Sharif, the authorities at the sufi shrine say they have still not received even a penny from Islamabad.

According to Alhaj Syed Wahid Hussain Chishti, general secretary of Anjuman Khuddam-e-Khawaja Sahav Syedzadgaan Ajmer Sharif, an official from the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi did contact the shrine authorities within days of Zardari’s visit to Ajmer on April 8 to ascertain where the donation money was proposed to be spent.

After that, there has been no communication from Islamabad or the Pakistani mission in New Delhi in this regard. ‘’We usually spend donations for noble causes such as increasing facilities for pilgrims, opening schools and hospitals and propagating the message of universal brotherhood,’’ Chishti said at a press conference.

Responding to a question, he said Zardari’s offering was the highest-ever donation announced for the shrine. He recalled that the then Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf had presented Rs ten lakh in cash on the spot during his visit to Ajmer in 2005. Meanwhile, Chishti said India should allow 80-year-old Pakistani national Mohammad Khalil Chisti to return to his country on humanitarian grounds since he has been keeping unwell.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120506/nation.htm#5

[ramana]

How big is this Poaq Gup
Higher Education in India

200 new universities and 40 new high-level institutes. Nine additional IITs will also be established, bringing the total number of IITs to 16. This was stated by Indian human resource development minister Kapil Sibal in the Lok Sabha recently. A sum of Rs800 billion, the biggest-ever allocation, is being set aside in the 12th five-year-plan of India (2012-2017) to propel it into a strong knowledge-based economy. India has presently 17 percent of its youth between the ages of 17 of 23 enrolled in the higher education sector (as opposed to Pakistan’s 7.6 percent). It plans to increase this enrolment to 30 percent of the same age group by the year 2030 (Chetan Chauhan, The Hindustan Times, April 25). India decided to replace its University Grants Commission with a stronger federally funded organisation, National Commission of Higher Education and Research. This was approved by the Indian Cabinet in December 2011.
The recent steps taken by India are the result of a detailed presentation made to the Indian prime minister in July 2006 by Prof C N R Rao about the threat posed by the remarkable transformation underway in higher education in Pakistan. In an article entitled “Pak threat to Indian science,” Neha Mehta wrote: “Pakistan may soon join China in giving India serious competition in science.” (The Hindustan Times on July 23, 2006.) The progress made by the higher education sector in Pakistan in the last decade is reflected from the increase in enrolment from 276,000 students in 2003 to 803,000 in 2011, increase in number of universities and degree-awarding institutes from 59 in the year 2000 to 137 by 2011, and an increase in international research publications from only 636 in 2000 to 6,200 in 2011. The PhD output too underwent an explosive growth. During the 55-year period from 1947 to 2002, only 3,281 PhDs had been granted by all our universities (a shocking average of about 3-4 PhDs per university per year)! During the subsequent eight-year period from 2003 to 2010, this number was exceeded and 3,658 PhDs were granted. ( Mushy's Phd Scheme) There was maximum emphasis on quality, as all PhD theses were evaluated by at least two top experts in technologically advanced countries before approval.

A reply to the author!

Higher education in India

I refer to the following Paragraph :

The progress made by the higher education sector in Pakistan in the last decade is reflected from the increase in enrolment from 276,000 students in 2003 to 803,000 in 2011, increase in number of universities and degree-awarding institutes from 59 in the year 2000 to 137 by 2011, and an increase in international research publications from only 636 in 2000 to 6,200 in 2011.

In this respect I give below an Article by Dr. Muzaffar Iqbal which specifically refers to “Colleges became Universities, Schools became Colleges and where there were no Colleges it fell upon Schools being converted into Universities :


Reforms in higher education :
Quantum note : Dr Muzaffar Iqbal

In the rubble of the emotional debates, charges, rejoinders, and rebuttals of Dr Ataur Rehman's departure from the HEC are lying certain abiding and real issues of higher education in Pakistan that no one wants to discuss. These issues are long-term, they are anchored in the past sixty years of educational policies of successive governments in Pakistan and they require thorough analysis. Even though they are not being discussed, one can find them buried under the rhetoric of what is being discussed.

It seems that the most important concern of all those who have written about the removal of Dr Rehman from the HEC is his performance (or its lack) and the alleged misuse of funds. His performance is being judged from the number of universities he set up or did not. In both cases (that is, the alleged misuse of funds and the number of universities), it is ultimately numbers that matter and that is where the real issue is buried.

Numbers, it seems, is the obsession of everyone: how many students went abroad; how many new universities were set up; how many new programmes were started, how many foreign trips were made; how many rupees were spent; how many articles were published in the journals; the list goes on.

This pervasive obsession with numbers is indicative of what Renon Guenon had called "reign of quantity," a monster of modernity that measures everything in quantity. In the educational sector this attitude has reduced the whole enterprise of education to a business. In business what matters is just numbers.

It all started with ZA Bhutto, the architect of the new Pakistan who nationalised educational institutions (and much else) in a schizophrenic and frantic manner between 1972 and '74, precisely at a time when the entire world was moving towards free-market economy. His disastrous policies are the real source of many contemporary economic problems of Pakistan. But what he did to education stands out in the context of this column. He nationalised schools, colleges and universities. The nationalised educational institutions quickly lost whatever standards they had because the state had neither the knowhow nor the manpower to run educational institutions. But this was not all. Obsessed with getting quick results (and hence popularity), he set a trend that Dr Rehman was following when he was claiming to establish some 37 new universities.

This is how Bhutto did it : One fine morning, he went to Multan, and addressing a public rally, said, you want a university in Multan and here I announce the establishment of Bahauddin Zakaria University. He did the same in Bahawalpur and Dera Ismail Khan. As a result, three new universities were set up in quick order at Multan, Bahawalpur and Dera Ismail Khan. Having made his announcements and having received his applause from the masses, Bhutto went on with his life and tasks, and the burden of actually establishing the universities was left to the officials of the ministry of education and the University Grants Commission. They, in turn, found a quick solution : they designed new boards and placed them where the boards of the colleges were previously standing. Thus, degree colleges in Multan, Bahawalpur, and Dera Ismail Khan overnight became universities. In due course of time, not even colleges could be found to convert to universities in certain remote areas, so the same fate fell to high schools. This is how quick universities could be established. All it needed was a board.

In this fixation of the quick results, what no one is interested in discussing are the crucial questions: what is the purpose of higher education in Pakistan ? How does this higher education correspond to, and emerges from, the "lower" education? What is the relationship between the needs of society and the nature of higher education institutions? What is the relationship between Pakistan 's social, cultural, and historical foundations and the higher education the state and private institutions are providing or are aspiring to provide?

These are crucial questions and they can provide guidelines for establishing institutions of higher education which will actually fulfil the real needs of Pakistani society. But since all of these questions require thinking, long-term planning, open discussions and a consultative process involving serious thinkers, intellectuals, and educators, anyone obsessed with quick fame and quick results cannot afford to even start such a process; hence, we have a succession of super-performers who are supposed to set everything right. And they come and actually announce the establishment of so many universities and so many scholarships because they are expected to do so. When they depart, they leave behind rubble and a wreck which no one wants to sort after a few days because the new head of the same institution needs to perform in the same manner : create new universities, send new students abroad, announce magical results.

(Concluded) - The writer is a freelance columnist – Email : [email protected]
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..... - ALL THESE COLLEGES IN LAHORE HAVE NOW BECOME UNIVERSITIES! I believe there are over Twelve Universities in Lahore .

In India , as far as I know, certain Institutions of Excellence have been granted University Status i.e. The IITs and the like. I am not aware of any Indian Colleges becoming Universities Overnight.

[shiv]

I read a very interesting article yesterday in the Paki Tribune by an Aakar Patel who comes up with the following theory. He says that in Punjab, conversions to islam were more likely in the people whom the brits called as "martial" races and less likely among the mercantile castes. He goes on to speculate that when Punjab was divided 65:35 with Pakistan getting 65% - the Pakis got all the martial mussalmans who converted while India retained the mercantile castes (eg Khatris). That explains the difference in economy of Punjab in India and the mad martial behavior with little mercantile sense among Pakis.

The article is here:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/318092/of-p ... ial-races/

I was initially skeptical about this theory on some counts, because I have been reading that conversions were done "agricultural" castes like Jats. But the man may not be wrong. Only the Arain were "agricultural" but not martial acc to the Brits.

Here is an interesting response to the above article that partly agrees and partly disagree. Still it has some noteworthy data.
Caste and the Pakistan Army

in the aftermath of the 1857 Mutiny, the Empire wanted to re-structure the British Indian Army in a bid to expunge the treacherous Bengalis, and accommodate more loyal segments of society, i.e. the Punjabis.
<snip>
ultimately led to the conclusion that some Punjabi tribes, i.e. the martial races (Janjuas, Awans, Ghakkars etc), were best suited for military service.This is precisely where Aakar Patel’s hypothesis overlaps with historical reality: The British, in their quest for passive consent from the Indians, skewed recruitment patterns to such an extent that 67% of all recruitment was happening in the hill-tracts of what is now Pakistani Punjab.

also:

The Punjabi trading and artisan castes, Arain, Kashmiri, Sheikhs, Perachas, Lohars etc, not only dominate provincial politics (through parties like the PML-N), they’re also quite keen on having good relations with India.

The later statement is more interesting to me - because some of these are not the highest castes and these parties (PML-N) have competed with the Paki army. But The Jamaat-ud-Dawa has received donations from the PML-N as far as I know and the JuD is against trade with India. So there is something missing...

[shiv]

OK folks - it you dig deep enough the info starts leaking out.

While Pakis have been denying caste officially - the code words to see what caste is doing in Pakistan is not "caste" but clan and gotra.

[chaanakya]

OK folks - it you dig deep enough the info starts leaking out.

While Pakis have been denying caste officially - the code words to see what caste is doing in Pakistan is not "caste" but clan and gotra.

Gotra is yindu imposition on Islamic republic?? Gotra and clan are interrelated and constitute essential ingredients for caste bases society. Using these shows that converts are still keeping vestiges of their old faith , importing them into The pure system , corrupting the pristine glory of PUBH. So the pure islamic republic of Pakistan is ahhh not so pure and The fit case for wajibulcattle. Kafirs could do the honors.

[Vikas]

Who would be a Paki liberal by BRF definition , what would be his traits and characteristics and how would he survive in Pakistan even if wants to act like a liberal. More than half the requirements of being a liberal go against the basic tenants of Islam as is understood today. If I place myself in Today's Pakistan trying to survive as normal human being forget being liberal, I probably would be trying to get a cheap Canadian visa and preach liberalism from safe confinements of Europe/NA.
Pakis like cheap wh0res excel in faking it.

[Vikas]

I mean its shameful that Indian Punjabis have allowed their own rich culture to slip out and be claimed by these dung filled frauds. They have given up the Punjabi language for Urdu, and are in the process of killing Punjabi culture even as they claim great prominence as being "tall, fair, handsome, Indo Aryan" and associated with prominent Punjabis from India.

Shiv, truth be told there is more to the story. While Paki Punjabis have nothing but disdain for their language, and ditching for Urdu. The Indian Punjabis, mostly Hindus, have the same disdain and are ditched it for Hindi.

As a matter of fact, the only group of people who have kept Punjabi culture and language with esteem are Sikhs. They are the cold storage of Punjab.

Sorry to say, but our own Punjab is quite rotten too.

Surinder ji / Shiv ji, I don't see any evidence that Punjabi Hindus have ditched Punjabi Language for Hindi. On the contrary there is too much of Punjabi culture in our pop media like movies,tv, pop music , marriages etc. Everywhere around people are either swaying on Punjabi tunes, raising arms and doing bhangra jig or using Punjabi cuss words I don't see any disdain for Punjabi language or culture at least among Punjabis. I completely disagree that Sikhs alone have been guardian angels of Punjabi culture and Language.
The effort of most of the Gen-Y kids moving towards English and Hindi is India wide social phenomenon that I can see in all communities of India starting from my own self.

[ArmenT]

From 1860-1900 deforestation in India is well studied: four main factors
(1) Brit desire to bring land under taxation - agricultural land was taxed more
(2) Wood for railway sleeper and shipbuilding for Royal Navy. In britland proper they had exhausted oak by 1700's. So Indian saal/teak was in great demand for "war effort" and "national interest". Canada and India were the main ship-building wood suppliers.
(3) Private contractors for logging and commercial farming under European lessees.
(4) punitive clearing of habitats of "criminal tribes" [this is well documented]

Dalhousie and Gibson are often cited as having promoted conservation and afforestation - but their eye was primarily on afforestation with teak - needed by the imperialists, and other items for economic exploitation like eucalyptus or sandalwood or forest products. Between the two wars Punjab is supposed to have been partially re-forested, but again timber needs for war and war expenses removed a lot of these trees from Punjab too [as in other parts of the country].

Brihaspati, Does your research indicate that deforestation in Punjab by the British had the aim of "punitive clearing of habitats of "criminal tribes""?

Just one thing to keep in mind though -- tropical forests generally have huge diversity in trees, so to get guaranteed supply of trees of a certain variety, people need to clear the area first and then plant only trees of that variety. That's where this afforestation business comes in -- there's deforestation first, followed by planting of saplings in a plantation.

As early as 1690 or so, the Royal Navy used to reserve the best white pine trees in the US and Canada for mast building, which led to the Pine Tree Riot, a precursor to the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution. After the American Revolution and due to Napoleon taking over the supply of wood from Scandinavia, the UK sourced a lot of its trees from Canada. As for wood from India, I read that most of the wood went as far as Bombay shipyards only, where it was used to build ships for the East India Company and Royal Navy. Which sort of makes sense, because it would take too long to ship the raw timber all the way to the UK, when there were perfectly capable shipwrights in Bombay (Parsis used to be big into shipbuilding trade at this time, Wadia family was particularly famous) and Cochin. Also, the best source of teak wood was considered to be Malabar and Coorg areas, not Punjab. In fact, ships built in the Bombay dockyards with Malabar/Coorgi teak wood were widely considered to be the best ships in the world, bar none. Burma was another source of teak wood, which led to shipyards in Calcutta and Chittagong. Brits actually tried to enact some laws to prevent India built ships from being used in English ports, so that they could protect their home-grown ship builders.

[anupmisra]

Sorry to say, but our own Punjab is quite rotten too.

Surinder, in your opinion, is this cultural degradation (giving up of the Punjabi language for Urdu/Hindustani, adoptation of Islamic mores) a recent phenomena or has this been going on for several generations? My guess is that it started when the brits started giving away lands and titles to the Musalmaans of Punjab in the mid 19th century.

[anupmisra]

A reply to the author!

This is how quick universities could be established. All it needed was a board.

I think that the Indian UGC needs to focus on itself rather than the mis-perceived threat from the land of the pure. The UGC should focus on finding quality lecturers and professors of useful (to Indian context) degrees rather than aping what the pakis did: grant wholesale doctorates to mediocre students of Islamic studies, pay well connected students to go overseas for higher education, and convert community colleges to university status, etc. Here's a recent ranking: Pak universities fail to get place in QS world ranking. From this April 2012 article:

The fact that no university in Pakistan has succeeded to find a place among the world’s superior educational institutions speaks volumes about the deteriorating standard of education in the country.

India does not face any threat from the pakis. Not for a long time unless the educators and planners in India do a paki on themselves. India's main threat comes from the mid-level Chinese universities who are "manufacturing" engineers and scientists by the hundreds of thousands to fill the middle and lower ranks of their nascent industries. See this article: 2011 QS Asian University Rankings™: India and China – university superpowers of the future?

[anupmisra]

While Pakis have been denying caste officially - the code words to see what caste is doing in Pakistan is not "caste" but clan and gotra.

Shiv, from the many well-to-do expat pakis that I have had the "pleasure" of meeting in the NY area, most did not know the meaning of gotra. They would deny the existence of "caste" in their society but would openly denigrate dark skin converts (often using the "ch...r" term). See article: Pakistan’s caste system: The untouchable's struggle.

[harbans]

I do get at times non Indians asking me about the Caste system, and i honestly tell them i don't know about it. No one ever asked me my Caste or i did the same in School or College. I say i do know Gotra and Varna and they have a completely different connotation to what they think the Caste system is. This is usually questioned by, but you marry within the same Caste? And i always say that is misleading, because the very primary aim of the Gotra system is keeping immediate blood lines away in marriage. So no we do not marry within the same Gotra or similar Gotras. Paki's being inbreds and marrying sisters and first cousins bother less about Gotra and it does mean little as one does not need to keep bloodlines separated in marriage and so they focus more on the discriminatory and racist aspects between Gotras, which in India diminishes rapidly each day. But then the driving motive of Adharmics will be to impute and malign majority Indics and divide them in some manner.