India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 05 May 2012 07:48

rates of bone cancer were not even increased in Chernobyl...

chanakya , cs is even found in xray clinics and radiotherapy centres..please have them banned... they might be responsible for the 3 headed monsters that we have seeing in town of late...

in fact most nuclear plant workers are not at an additional risk than radiotherapy technicians..

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 05 May 2012 09:29

^^^ Cs which newspapers talk about and Japan monitors is in the food supply .(Also on the ground) .It is a serious business but fortunately the monitoring is nice and health effects (after one year period - I put a link for actual data from UCSB symposium) have been virtually nil. ( I have tried to give quantitative perspective so aam janta understands it better)

One tidbit I may have mention before that Cs is one way people can determine if the wine was made in 1950-60 (atmospheric atomic tests) ..,or 1986 's (Chernobyl) is measuring the radioactivity of Cs. ..

For example from here

the presence of cesium 137, an artificial element linked with the nuclear activity. Wines made with grapes collected between 1950-1963, an epoch of intensive atomic trials and in 1986, the year of the accident of the Chernobyl central, show a high level of this radioactive element.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 May 2012 15:43

Amber G. wrote:In addition to my above above, I just looked up my original Forbes story...
If only Chaanakya really read the story.. he would have found out that his question was already answered ... and it was not the author who was being stupid and idiotic...

Well why do you assume that I did not read the story. Auther wanted to make some wild claim not validated by the wrods of law. It clearly says radioactive cesium and not merely radioactrivity. So obviously banana would not come under its ambit. But then without sensationalising who would read his idiotic statements. His original source in linked story was not from Forbes but from Japan Today. That story does not present this news in the stupid manner. But of course we have heard of exploding solar panels and DHMOied Radiathor tonics and vitamins from such enthusiasts.

Gkji You have to ask Japan Govt for banning what you asked.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 May 2012 21:07

Amber G. wrote:Chaanakaya - Just a suggestion ..

Most of my posts here are to educate general public as there is lot of ignorance. I am following this because Ramana has asked me to do that. One can check standard reputable sources to add more to the knowledge.. and comment if there are any inaccuracies on what I posted.

If you like, you can ignore my posts, or say you disagree.. even better, if you can show some reputable links to correct any error.. that will be helpful. This endless, absurd mocking, personal insults, innuendos, words like "farticle physicists" say more about you than me. It is also very annoying, I am sure not only for me but others too.

In any case it is just a suggestion.

Be my geust.

But your peddling of idea that Radiation is good will be called out. And yes, everyone knows about the DOSE which is important. You are not the first to point out but yes you consistently ignore that.

You also credit Japanese with less intelligence then they deserve when you think that they wont do chemical analysis for Cs when radiation alarm goes off. Of course , in your utter contempt for Japanese Scientists /experts and advisors who advised Govt to frame those limits ( which may keep changing) , you think that they would confuse Banana with other food items.
If fact you have not even bothered to see the US Gov website link in my post which has FAQ about Cs.

Well if you think there is personal attack please report the post.Mostly it is the way you think about yourself and the self imposed importance that you feel slighted.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 May 2012 21:16

gakakkad wrote:rates of bone cancer were not even increased in Chernobyl...

chanakya , cs is even found in xray clinics and radiotherapy centres..please have them banned... they might be responsible for the 3 headed monsters that we have seeing in town of late...

in fact most nuclear plant workers are not at an additional risk than radiotherapy technicians..

Yeah Cs is CsCl used for radiotherapy. I know that. And for cancer treatment. But did you ever recommend radiotherapy for normal healthy people? Even there ingestion of Cs is not there. What do you think would be effect of ingestion of Cs? Is it good if Cs finds it way in food chain? Is is accumulative? Is radiation dose by Cs in body is having some effect, good or bad??

Regarding bone cancer etc, you might like to post link about this. And did we talk about bone cancer in this context of Cs 137? Is there no connection? K and Cs are indistiguishable by Body hence could be linked to thyroid cancer? May be you can discuss seprately.

And who is taking about NPP workers who take conscious decision to work there knowing the risk they might be subjected to.?

Have you not heard of Hydra headed monster?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 May 2012 21:18

Amber G. wrote:^^^ Cs which newspapers talk about and Japan monitors is in the food supply .(Also on the ground) .It is a serious business but fortunately the monitoring is nice and health effects (after one year period - I put a link for actual data from UCSB symposium) have been virtually nil. ( I have tried to give quantitative perspective so aam janta understands it better)

One tidbit I may have mention before that Cs is one way people can determine if the wine was made in 1950-60 (atmospheric atomic tests) ..,or 1986 's (Chernobyl) is measuring the radioactivity of Cs. ..

For example from here
the presence of cesium 137, an artificial element linked with the nuclear activity. Wines made with grapes collected between 1950-1963, an epoch of intensive atomic trials and in 1986, the year of the accident of the Chernobyl central, show a high level of this radioactive element.

Why not propose to rename the thread as Banana, Wine and Nuts discussion.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 May 2012 21:47

Amber G. wrote:
This, of course, is classic obfuscation, if not dishonesty, to describe when good people here are sharing their knowledge. Bed (banana equivalent dose) is just an unit. Too bad if it causes so much irritation. Only idiots like Busby
says all radiation is bad (or good)

The critical part is DOSE!
.

But for your telling us we would not have known this.

But talking about Banana for Radiation is to imply that Radiation is good like Banana is good for health. Thank you for telling that there is no transference of goodness of banana to the radiation even implicitly. Can we get back to Nuclear power plant debate now?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 May 2012 00:11

Has this been posted?

Mumbai, India -- The story is buried in the business section of the Times of India. India's largely government-owned monopoly, Coal India, is changing its pricing system -- and the result will be a staggering 25 percent projected increase in the price of electricity generated with domestic coal. Since imported coal has already tripled in price over the past three years, the reality should be sinking in. An economic development strategy for Asia premised on cheap (if dirty) coal is over.

Even The Economist sees the crisis. The cover of its Asian edition blares "Trouble for King Coal in India." In spite of $60 billion in recent private investment in coal generating plants, India's coal fleet has operated at less than 50 percent of capacity for the past six months -- many plants squeezing through with only a few days worth of coal reserves at a time. Coal production in India has grown -- but at a snail's pace compared with China. Major industrial giants that were financing the enormous fleet of new power plants that this country needs have, effectively gone on a capital strike, suspending plans for 42 gigawatts of new coal capacity. India now produces only 73 percent of its own demand, giving coal exporters like Indonesia and Australia the whip hand and the ability to extract enormous price increases as India competes with other Asian countries seeking to fire their boilers and light their cities.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-pope ... 32347.html

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 May 2012 01:27

CS-137 is the prime reason Chernobyl is still 'hot'. It is not good that is being found at elevated levels. This indicates the land is likely contaminated beyond use for our generation and probably the next few as well. If Caesium is being found it is almost certain Sr90 is present as well. This is the really dangerous on with a biological half life measured in years.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 06 May 2012 01:27

About Coal production following appeared on March 12th
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/po ... d/922474/0

Estimates are that India will import 120 million tonnes of coal next fiscal, as against some 70 mt this year. Imports could touch 240 mt by 2016-17, which, at today’s prices, entail an import bill of $30 billion.

India’s primary coal source, CIL currently produces about 432 mtpa and is likely to end this fiscal with 450 mtpa. The Eleventh Plan target of well above 500 mtpa by CIL was earlier cut to 480 mtpa and further to around 450 mtpa. CIL has approached the coal ministry to lower it further to about 440 mtpa.

On top of that a recent change in rules by Indonesia makes it mandatory for foreigners to own less than 50% share in companies (read coal mines). A couple of Indian corporate houses are definitely getting affected by this as they need to reduce their share. All said and done, it is choking of the supply lines for Desh

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 May 2012 01:29

Again what is the break down of thermal coal for power, vs coking coal and thermal coal for industry. AFAIK we need to import coal, irrespective due to these reasons. Thermal coal for power is only a section of our coal imports.

What we should be doing is castigating CIAL for not producing rather than campaigning that we abandon coal. This is foolish talk.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 06 May 2012 01:41

OT-alert
As far as this Indonesian angle is concerned, power generation plans of two corporates houses that I know about are affected.
On the reduction of production target I cannot shake off the feeling of ghapla. Reduction of production targets is reported to be equivalent to $30B import bill.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 May 2012 01:48

What we should be doing is castigating CIAL for not producing rather than campaigning that we abandon coal

No one is campaigning banning/ abandoning coal. But it highlights why India desperately needs an energy mix specially for baseload power generation. Something that the anti-nuclear votaries here are against. That energy mix includes NPPs both home grown and imported for the fastest possible ramp up to meet our energy requirements. Removing hurdles towards Uranium import and ramping up our own domestic produce are just one of many steps in the right direction. Puuting artificial hindrances to the growth of nuclear generation and claiming nuclear is just a fraction or will be so in the future cannot be under any reasonable circumstances considered a rational point of view. So refrain from saying that people here are advocating banning coal.

Thermal coal for power is only a section of our coal imports.

Even that does not serve your point. As long a a commodity is used for several purposes, it's cost will be dependent on the supply-demand economics. That will affect any sub group usage. Uranium ore is only used for one purpose. IF it was used in myriad industries, it would drive up the cost of nuclear power generation. The same applies to coal. It's usage in the power industry will affect prices in other industries.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 May 2012 04:54

Harbans,

It doesn't work that way. Coal comes in different qualities and varieties and is used for different purposes on that basis. U-235 comes in one flavor onlee. And can be used for one purpose onlee, as you stated. The argument is we are importing coal, it is expensive, the sky is falling, quick build a nuclear plant, and you have freedom from the coal lobby. This is weak and a misreading of the coal import picture. Just the fact that such scare tactics are resorted to tells us who needs public money more. Ultimately that is what all these arguments are about, fork over $150 Billion pronto, no questions asked... ...never mind that despite heavy spending Nuclear is still 2% of the mythical base load energy mix.

The claim is instead of importing coal we should import Uranium, because you know, well just because damnit.....

WRT your claim of artificial hindrances in front of Nuclear, how come they are legitimate when those same hindrances block coal development or for that matter Hydel. People have been seduced and don't want to wake up. Without public dollars and wild feeding at the GOI trough, there is no nuclear power.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 May 2012 05:05

Theo, your argument again is wrong. The Carbon in the coal is just the same as is the U-235 you quote. Uranium ore too is in different shades, low to high quality, like coal with high or low calorific values. Some of the same cargo loads of coal shipped to Paradip, Haldia are assigned to different sectors Steel and Power. Tata's even have a private jetty in one of these ports for the purpose. The argument is not what you have stated, the argument why people support NPPs is exactly what i posted: Developing a much more healthier Energy mix. Something that anti nuclear protagonists are in reality denying by spearheading the campaign against Nuclear.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 06 May 2012 11:46

Somewhat good news is that India has crossed 200GW Power generation capacity. (31.3.2012)
------Fuel------------ MW ---------- %age----
Total Thermal-- -----131353.18-------65.79
--------Coal---------112,022.38------56.11
--------Gas-----------18,131.05-------9.08
--------Oil-------------1,199.75-------0.60
Hydro (Renewable)-----38,990.40-----19.53
Nuclear ------------4,780.00-------2.39
RES** (MNRE)---------24,503.45------12.27
Total ---------------1,99,627.03-----100.00
India can easily ramp up the production capacity of power generation by setting up N.Gas power plants. In fact about 16% of additional capacity addition would come from Gas alone. India has already initiated various strategic dialogues to secure gas supplies on long term basis.Essentially , Gas would be the replacement for coal.However like Coal , Gas has other uses such as in fertilisers , hence the limited to 16% in forced gas scenario.

This is what Energy Policy states in respect of nuclear.

Though nuclear energy can make only a modest contribution over the next 25 years, longer term consideration of even
a modest degree of energy selfsufficiency suggests the need to pursue the development of nuclear power using Thorium. Despite the many delays and disappointments in achieving set targets of nuclear energy development in the past, this is an option we cannot afford not to pursue. Today the PHWR is economically competitive with coalbased plants at certain locations.

(g) If the import of 6,000 MWe of LWR reactors does not materialise, the installed nuclear capacity by 2031-32 will be 48,000 MW instead of 63,000 MW. The impact on the various scenarios will, however, be marginal and none of the policy conclusion would be affected. We have not depended on large scale import of LWRs due to the uncertainties involved. Imported LWRs could be an
important option if the FBR and Thorium reactor routes not materialise or are found to be uneconomical. Energy security concerns may leave us no option other than full pursuit of the FBR and Thorium routes.

(h) The optimistic nuclear development scenario as envisaged is contingent on 6,000 MW of additional import of LWRs whose plutonium could be used in FBRs along with the plutonium from the 10,000 MWe reactors using our own Uranium. Import of the
additional 6,000 MW of LWRs (and associated fuel) depends upon the handful of countries constituting the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group (NSG). If the sanctions by the NSG are removed and India is able to import Uranium and nuclear power plants, nuclear
power can play a much bigger role in the power sector. The capacity growth then would not be constrained by Table
3.4. However, if energy security concerns are our primary driver towards nuclear, then import of LWRs, even though more economical, may have to be limited to restrict our dependence on energy imports.

The policy does not place much reliance on Nuclear Plant import and talks of limiting it if energy security is prime driver. This is mainly due to the fact of restriction on import of fuels and technology, not merely of Power plant but also of storage of spent fuels, Nuclear waste and reprocessing of spent fuels. Nuclear Deal assumes importance in this aspect, but India is not treated as full member of NSG as yet. Hence if India achieves 63 GW as planned , that in itself would be no mean achievement.
The concerns about safety, independent regulatory mechanism, transparent processes, local consent etc would still continue to engage attention. Co2 reduction would be Indias least of concerns.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 06 May 2012 12:57

chaanakya wrote: Be my geust.

But your peddling of idea that Radiation is good will be called out. And yes, everyone knows about the DOSE which is important. You are not the first to point out but yes you consistently ignore that.

Where has he posted that Radiation is good? Please point out.

chaanakya wrote: You also credit Japanese with less intelligence then they deserve when you think that they wont do chemical analysis for Cs when radiation alarm goes off. Of course , in your utter contempt for Japanese Scientists /experts and advisors who advised Govt to frame those limits ( which may keep changing) , you think that they would confuse Banana with other food items.
If fact you have not even bothered to see the US Gov website link in my post which has FAQ about Cs.

Well if you think there is personal attack please report the post.Mostly it is the way you think about yourself and the self imposed importance that you feel slighted.

Chaanakkya,
I think it is a genuine post from Amber to ignore his posts should you find it annoying. But to state that he has a chip on his shoulder etc...not cool and a hit under the belt. We all know his contributions to the Maths/Physics threads and by that measure, his arguments and points do carry a lot more weight.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 06 May 2012 13:20

chaanakya wrote:
Amber G. wrote:^^^ Cs which newspapers talk about and Japan monitors is in the food supply .(Also on the ground) .It is a serious business but fortunately the monitoring is nice and health effects (after one year period - I put a link for actual data from UCSB symposium) have been virtually nil. ( I have tried to give quantitative perspective so aam janta understands it better)

One tidbit I may have mention before that Cs is one way people can determine if the wine was made in 1950-60 (atmospheric atomic tests) ..,or 1986 's (Chernobyl) is measuring the radioactivity of Cs. ..

For example from here
Why not propose to rename the thread as Banana, Wine and Nuts discussion.

Mate, what is wrong with you. That is a genuine piece of information about radioactivity monitoring and I found it quite informative - it is also pertinent to the line of discussion. If we want to talk about effects of radioactivity, we must talk about the food chain . You could agree, disagree or ignore to the post made - those are 3 options any person who is genuinely interested would do. Instead you chose to make a smarta$$ argument. By ignoring you leave the thread in peace. By making a jibe , you intend to derail the thread. Or was that a joke? No it was not funny.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 06 May 2012 21:59

Neela - Thanks.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 May 2012 05:26

Prof T wrote:
Amber et al,

in case you read this ...

identification of gamma emitting isotopes is readily done in high purity germanium detectors ... they typically have an energy resolution of order 1 keV ... Cs-137 has a characteristic 662 keV line which is easily identified ... similarly K-40 ... so yes, food or soil radio-assay will yield the isotopic content in the sample.

Prof (in case you read this)

- Yes, I am aware of HPGe, ..... ( also K40, I might have to look it up, but has primarily beta decay and beta rays might not be as penetrating..(see my note at the end of the post)

(Perhaps HPGe may not be that expensive now a days, but still you can buy a Geiger counter fairly cheap from amazon.com ...)

This is why I have recommended (and try) to use (or convert in effective) mSV (or Bed

) (which is a measure of health effect on a human body) for aam-janata, and not Bq/Kg (of Bq/m^2 for soil) etc..Yes calculation is much more complicated than just counting clicks.. but it takes into account of the energy, type of rays etc.

(Actually if you look through my post on equivalent total body dose, I explain it in quite clearly).

So if you read my post carefully I have qualified what I said about detecting in "general" by counters normally accessible to municipality level. (Or used words like " most of the radiation counters ...) ,

Even Forbes story author is aware of that ... if you carefully dissect his words..

Here is relevant part of the story... quite educative, IMO:

The law is supposed to apply to those foods which are contaminated with cesium and bananas get their radioactivity from potassium (and Brazil nuts from radium). However:

The ministry said local municipalities will be responsible for carrying out testing and that any item measuring above the set standard will not be permitted to be sold.

I know that Japan is an extremely efficient country but who really thinks that local municipalities are going to be testing for which isotope of which element is producing the radiation? Yes, quite, it’s going to be a quick brush with a Geiger counter isn’t it? And again yes, a pile of bananas in the local supermarket will set one off. That’s something you can actually go and test if you should be so inclined (and have access to a counter).

So while the law itself might have been narrowly written it may well not work out that way. It really is possible that bananas will be found to fall foul of this new law.

(And , as I mentioned before, K40 and bananas are notorious for causing false alarm

- just google it

).. (For example see this, Radiological and Nuclear Detection Devices

Evaluations of various border scenarios have shown that nearly 80% of false alarms were triggered by such legitimate radioactive materials. These false alarms not only slow down business but also reduce the sense of urgency among those who respond to them. Between May 2001 and March 2005, there were reportedly 10,000 false alarms. { mostly by bananas, kitty litter etc}

BTW I differ slightly from you on:
Matrix of purity of cluelessnes, as you put it, does not have a single eigenvalue

Here we deal with people who are proud that they do not know the difference between watt and joule... or between thermal capacity and internal energy .. or between joule and coulomb. (Remember pages and pages of me explaining difference between R and Gr and Sv)

Added later: a few comments:
- At about $100,000 HPGe is not too expensive for many authorities in Japan to have it, but the Forbes point was it is still much more expensive than Geiger counters (around a few hundred dollars). (There are cheaper radiation meters which can detect the difference between, say K and Cs, but still they are more expensive than a cheap Geiger.

- K40, along with Beta rays ( which account for about 80% of the counts), does produce gammas. Gammas are the one responsible for triggering US Border detectors. Unlike Gamma, Beta rays are typically absorbed in about a few meter of air or a few mm thick plastic. (Moral - Eating a banana will give you more mSV than looking at it from a few feet

- BTW, Radiation from Brazil nuts - where another significant radioactive ingredient is Ra is mostly alpha (and some beta).. and alpha typically travel only a few inches in air - and will be stopped by human skin ...
(For details or more clarity, if interested, just check out any reputable source.).

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 May 2012 08:34

This post contains some responses to Chaanakya's posts.

For other folks: Unless you are curious about what he wrote and have some doubts, you can safely ignore this post.

May not be of interest to all. But it may be helpful if some one seriously thinks that Chaanakya's posts need to be answered. I will not dignify insults, but just touch some few points.

>>>

chaanakya wrote:
Amber G. wrote:In addition to my above above, I just looked up my original Forbes story...
If only Chaanakya really read the story.. he would have found out that his question was already answered ... and it was not the author who was being stupid and idiotic...
Well why do you assume that I did not read the story.

I did assume, perhaps you missed reading the story (it explained everything very nicely) because, otherwise, I have to conclude that there is some thing seriously wrong with you, if you made those comments (which made absolutely no sense), after actually reading the story.

Auther wanted to make some wild claim not validated by the wrods of law. It clearly says radioactive cesium and not merely radioactrivity. So obviously banana would not come under its ambit. But then without sensationalising who would read his idiotic statements.

Read what I wrote carefully. If you still don't understand than I am not responsible.

Point of Forbes story is your ordinary Geiger counter is not likely to know the difference and false alarms due to banana's are sure going to be annoying. (IOW don't set the limit too low). Thousands of false alarms do go on in all countries. As said, only thing idiotic was interpretation of the story (by you).
... You may like to brush up on units of Bq etc..

chaanakya wrote:
Amber G. wrote:Chaanakaya - Just a suggestion ..

Most of my posts here are to educate general public as there is lot of ignorance. I am following this because Ramana has asked me to do that. One can check standard reputable sources to add more to the knowledge.. and comment if there are any inaccuracies on what I posted.

If you like, you can ignore my posts, or say you disagree.. even better, if you can show some reputable links to correct any error.. that will be helpful. This endless, absurd mocking, personal insults, innuendos, words like "farticle physicists" say more about you than me. It is also very annoying, I am sure not only for me but others too.

In any case it is just a suggestion.
Be my geust.

This, in my opinion, is unnecessary rude.

But your peddling of idea that Radiation is good will be called out.

The assertion is false, dishonest and malicious. To put it lightly, it is a blatant lie that I ever said that.
You really ought to be ashamed of yourself to propagate that kind of falsehood.

' And yes, everyone knows about the DOSE which is important. You are not the first to point out ...

(Actually I was the first to point that out in BRF, along with reputable reference chart

)

Per virtually every expert tells me, most ordinary folks, are not familiar with the units. Ramana himself asked me to explain that. Your posts after posts prove, beyond any doubt, that you have no clue about this.. Even in the last post, if you knew even an iota about the dose, you would not have linked the people who died with doses > 100,000,000 bed (= banana equivalent dose) with 'any amount of radiation will kill you' type tripe. Any one who had even a little quantitative comprehension will not think that ZERO (no of radiation deaths) is same as 1,400,000 (the radiation deaths per your posts after posts of Busby..Remember the guy whom you were (and may be still) worshiping...and you still do not have courage to say that that number is/was wrong)

You also credit Japanese with less intelligence then they deserve when you think that they wont do chemical analysis for Cs when radiation alarm goes off. Of course , in your utter contempt for Japanese Scientists /experts and advisors who advised Govt to frame those limits ( which may keep changing) , you think that they would confuse Banana with other food items.
If fact you have not even bothered to see the US Gov website link in my post which has FAQ about Cs.

First I have quite a bit of respect for all scientists including Japanese. You on the other hand continue to insult them. I met Japanese physicists just days after Fukushima and had a good information and ideas exchange.

As to what kind of equipment a municipality will have, and what they likely to analyze, read the Forbes story to get some perspective.

Well if you think there is personal attack please report the post..

Brilliant idea. I will do that.

Why not propose to rename the thread as Banana, Wine and Nuts discussion.

I think present title is good enough, though one may say that a few nuts may be going bananas and w(h)ining, but that's not the reason to change the name

... In any case, I don't think admin liked that idea very much.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 07 May 2012 09:54

Here we deal with people who are proud that they do not know the difference between watt and joule... or between thermal capacity and internal energy .. or between joule and coulomb. (Remember pages and pages of me explaining difference between R and Gr and Sv)

when did the coulomb joule mixup happen ? must be funniest...

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 07 May 2012 10:00

Regarding bone cancer etc, you might like to post link about this. And did we talk about bone cancer in this context of Cs 137? Is there no connection? K and Cs are indistiguishable by Body hence could be linked to thyroid cancer? May be you can discuss seprately.

thanfully the thyroid gland knows more chemistry than some living humans ...

very simplified diagram of thyroxine synthesis.. iodine uptake takes place through a specifie Na-I channel..only thing that the channel lets in is I ions ...it will not let anything else enter as it got an MS in chemistry from MIT .

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 07 May 2012 19:08

gakakkad wrote:
Here we deal with people who are proud that they do not know the difference between watt and joule... or between thermal capacity and internal energy .. or between joule and coulomb. (Remember pages and pages of me explaining difference between R and Gr and Sv)

when did the coulomb joule mixup happen ? must be funniest...

Yes it was. It was not just a "mix-up" .. (also mix-up between mass and volume and things like human beings are not made out of air and weighs more than same volume of air

check out (read it after "example 1") ....
here and a few posts later and before

Please start with, this post for context ..

Promise you, it is worth reading ...

(R measures charge / volume in air, (BTW the unit is now obsolete), Gr is energy absorbed / mass in a body .. yet they kept switching from one to other without slightest understanding)

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 08 May 2012 00:14

No boiler blast at Kudankulam

The Nuclear Power Corporation of India Ltd (NPCIL) Monday termed as baseless that a boiler had burst at the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KNPP) as work on starting the first 1,000 MW reactor is progressing at a hectic pace.

"There is a rumour spread by some miscreants that there is a blast in KNPP. This is absolute false and KNPP totally denies this rumours," site director R.S.Sundar told IANS when queried about a circulating SMS about a blast in KNPP
<snip>

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 08 May 2012 06:36

Kerala wants Kudankulam power

Kerala, which vehemently opposed the setting up of any nuclear plant in the state and strongly opposed construction of transmission towers to draw power generated in the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant, has approached the prime minister’s office with a request that the state be allotted 500 MW power from the same plant.

“The Department of Atomic Energy had initially proposed to set up the Russia built plants in Kerala. In fact the then Soviet Union had preferred Kerala as the location to set up these ultra-modern plants because of the fact that the state was ruled by the CPI(M)-led Left Democratic Front. It was following a massive anti-nuclear agitation undertaken by the Kerala comrades themselves which made the DAE to opt for Tamil Nadu which obliged by offering vast stretches of land,” said a senior DAE official who was associated with the project from the initial days itself.

He said the Kerala government, media and the anti-nuclear lobby did not allow even setting up of transmission towers and lines in the state to draw power from KNPP. “They spread all kinds of rumours that even the power generated at KNPP was radioactive { }and hence dangerous to the environment. Now they are demanding 500 MW of the power to be generated at KNPP,” said the official on condition of anonymity.

<snip>
According to the rules formulated by the Union government, Tamil Nadu is eligible for 970 MW from the total 2000 MW. The rest will be distributed to the other southern states.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 08 May 2012 07:04

Is there an alternative to Kudankulam?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 May 2012 23:26

According to the rules formulated by the Union government, Tamil Nadu is eligible for 970 MW from the total 2000 MW. The rest will be distributed to the other southern states.

So Kerala is asking for 500MW of the 1030MW available for distribution to Southern States ie~ 50% of the output! Fair share would be 1/3 or 33%.
Maybe they can make a case base on not having enough generating capacity and their need is greater?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 08 May 2012 23:46

Demand is so high just in TN alone. TN shortage is around 4000MW if I am not mistaken. Industries are really suffering due to this. JJ has a lot to prove. Demand is increasing everyday too. I hope TN takes a good share of production using her weight. Kerala can get some next year when the others come online.

I think the way things are going we should have 1000MW capacity increase every 4 months with the new KKNP facilities coming online.

amit · Post by **amit** » 09 May 2012 06:13

The anti KNPP folks need to start a new agitation demanding the bijli from the Nuke plant is not pumped into their homes. That bijli is also radioactive and will fry their testimonials.

Somebody please inform Shree Udaykumar ji ASAP!

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 09 May 2012 06:40

amit wrote:The anti KNPP folks need to start a new agitation demanding the bijli from the Nuke plant is not pumped into their homes. That bijli is also radioactive and will fry their testimonials.

Somebody please inform Shree Udaykumar ji ASAP!

These agitations are absent in other countries. How come electricity is all good in certain first world countries and not so good here?

Hoping to see Udaykumar working the same way in these countries too where, fundamentalists or fascists or whichever his favorite words could be are actually producing more than 0W of nuclear power!!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 May 2012 06:45

ramana wrote: So Kerala is asking for 500MW of the 1030MW available for distribution to Southern States ie~ 50% of the output! Fair share would be 1/3 or 33%.

Fair share would be zero since they are being class A hypocrites by opposing nuke plants in their own state while demanding power from KKNPP.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 09 May 2012 06:56

Since the GoI has put in funds for the development, all states are equally eligible for a share. However, due to the lack of proper distribution networks in India, the regional grids are the next best thing, so the power is distributed among the states in the region, while the state hosting the plant gets the lions share.

shyamd wrote:Demand is so high just in TN alone. TN shortage is around 4000MW if I am not mistaken. Industries are really suffering due to this. JJ has a lot to prove. Demand is increasing everyday too. I hope TN takes a good share of production using her weight. Kerala can get some next year when the others come online.

I think the way things are going we should have 1000MW capacity increase every 4 months with the new KKNP facilities coming online.

Not just TN, but almost every state barring Gujarat and NE states have a power deficit. Karnataka & AP too have shortage in the 1000s. TN is already getting close to 50% of the output, so it should be happy with it.

This really brings the necessity for proper distribution grid at the national level. Then, states like Karnataka , AP etc which are power deficient can buy power from Gujarat, Chattisgarh etc which have surplus. At present, the gird is the bottleneck

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 09 May 2012 11:47

nachiket wrote:
ramana wrote: So Kerala is asking for 500MW of the 1030MW available for distribution to Southern States ie~ 50% of the output! Fair share would be 1/3 or 33%.
Fair share would be zero since they are being class A hypocrites by opposing nuke plants in their own state while demanding power from KKNPP.

Exactly. There should be a cost associated with the NIMBY attitude.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 10 May 2012 00:13

This small news item caught my eye, it is from NRC (USA) but likely to have learnings for India.
(Water waste set, in water works, specially near mines, can become uranium resource in India - )
NRC ISSUES GUIDANCE ON TREATMENT OF URANIUM FILTERED FROM LOCAL WATER SYSTEMS AND OTHER FACILITIES

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has issued guidance allowing uranium recovery
facilities to accept, process and dispose of certain ion-exchange resins used to remove naturally
occurring uranium from municipal water systems.
The guidance states that the NRC considers certain resins “equivalent feed” – if they are
essentially identical to material already processed at the facility – rather than “alternative feed” that
would require a license amendment to accept and process.
This guidance can help community water systems comply with regulations issued in 2003 by
the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, placing a limit of 30 micrograms of uranium in drinking
water. The transport, treatment and disposal of the uranium-loaded resins can be a significant cost –
according to the EPA, as much as 50 percent of operating costs for smaller community water
systems.
These treatment resins are chemically and physically essentially the same as ion-exchange
resins already used at uranium recovery facilities and would be processed in the same way. The
NRC staff has determined that uranium recovery facilities should be permitted to accept these resins
as equivalent feed without the need for a license amendment, provided the processing remains
within the scope of the facilities’ existing safety and environmental reviews.
“This is a win-win situation, benefitting our national interest by recovering valuable uranium
while helping community water systems purify drinking water,” said Mark Satorius, director of the
NRC’s Office of Federal and State Materials and Environmental Management Programs. “The
ability to reuse the resins provides an economic benefit to the treatment facilities by reducing
operating costs and the amount of resin requiring disposal.”
The guidance also allows mine dewatering operations to dispose of uranium-loaded resin in
the same way – by sending them to a uranium recovery facility for processing – rather than
disposing of them in a landfill. In a similar fashion, uranium-loaded resin from another licensed
uranium recovery facility can also be treated as equivalent feed if it meets the criteria outlined in the
guidance.
Once the uranium is recovered, the spent resins may be disposed in uranium mill tailings
impoundments or as low-level radioactive waste, or they may be returned to the water treatment
facility for reuse in stripping uranium from municipal water supplies.
<snip>

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 May 2012 01:18

nachiket wrote:
ramana wrote: So Kerala is asking for 500MW of the 1030MW available for distribution to Southern States ie~ 50% of the output! Fair share would be 1/3 or 33%.
Fair share would be zero since they are being class A hypocrites by opposing nuke plants in their own state while demanding power from KKNPP.

Not really. If you see the objectives of Kudankalam, 970MW of the 2000MW was for TN and rest for the Southern states per the article linked above. Since there are three other Southern states, fair share would be 1/3 of the remaining. Another way it could be based on popoulation, area and what not. They could make a hardship case for more than that if they have woeful deficit or can show no chance of buildig other sources.
But demanding ~50% is not fair.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 10 May 2012 01:41

merlin wrote: Fair share would be zero since they are being class A hypocrites by opposing nuke plants in their own state while demanding power from KKNPP.

Exactly. There should be a cost associated with the NIMBY attitude.

Then the question comes what about the mining in Chavara ?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 10 May 2012 01:46

The 50% demand (yes unfair) could be as compensation for not allowing to build a new dam at MP. Just guessing.

As for NIMBY, did the GoK oppose nuclear plants or is it a few NGO assisted nuts ?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 10 May 2012 02:02

I don't think there is any support in TN for punishing people for what they believe in. To be fair there was not uniform support in Kudankulam even back then. However the land owning community and the elders thought that the plant would benefit the people and hence sold their land to NPCIL. I suspect the situation would be quite different if NPCIL asked for land today. Not dissimilar to all the areas in TN that told NPCIL to take a hike when they asked for land but want the electricity today. Ultimately it is always about land.

Kerala should get its fair share and a fair share of any surplus as well.

Now if only I can get my Pineapple crop through Kerala customs in under 48 hours! I'm dreading my upcoming attempt in June/July. A few more sleepless nights. Sigh!

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 10 May 2012 02:15

Kerala could not cough up even 100 acres of land for a greenfield IIT in a reasonable time. So the suitable punishment would be to bar keralites from getting admissions to any of the IITs.

More seriously land acquisition will be a bigger problem in KL for larger projects, even road width cannot meet NHAI requirement. Other than the dry zone in the southern tip on the TN side(which was part of Travancore in the old days

), the next best place to site a plant would be on the western coast would be in Kasargode district.