Indian Space Program Discussion

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 May 2012 01:43

ISRO satellite centre turns 40.

ISRO Satellite Centre, Bangalore, turns 40 on Friday. From assembling the country's first satellite, the experimental Aryabhata, all of 360 kg, with Soviet help in the 1970s, ISAC has come a long way.

Today, it turns out sophisticated multi-band communications, observation and strategic spacecraft. It also made some business by building two satellites for European customers. More than 50 domestic satellites have flown out of here.

The Mooncraft of 2008, Chandrayaan-1, and April's advanced observation bird RISAT-1 also came out of ISAC. The INSAT fleet of communication satellites is the spine of television channels, telephone and Internet networks, telemedicine, distance education, radio networking, weather forecast and disaster warning.

Policy makers, agronomists and mining agencies among others use Earth pictures from remote sensing IRS satellites to track crops, minerals and forests.

ISAC plans to build a 5000-kg spacecraft in two years. A Mars spacecraft for 2013 is on the cards. An upcoming ring of navigational satellites will form an Indian GPS; it will boost positioning and timing for civil aviation, military use, ships, cars and other services.

Located on the old HAL airport road, ISAC is a lead space centres along with VSSC for rockets; and the SDSC for launches. The INSATs, the IRSs and the GSats are designed, developed, fabricated and tested here.

"[ISAC] is celebrating 40 years of fruitful existence on May 11, 2012," says an ISRO statement. On Friday, Dr K.Radhakrishnan, ISRO Chairman, formally launches the space centre's `ruby year' celebration.

BORN IN A SHED

India launched into the satellite era on May 10, 1972 by signing an agreement with the then USSR to build the ‘Aryabhata'. (By then, it was taking baby steps in rocket making at Thumba in Kerala.)

Soon, ISAC was born in an industrial shed in Peenya in north Bangalore. By the 1980s, it got its own campus on the other side of the city.It now has two ‘satellite' campuses. ISITE (ISRO Satellite Integration and Test Establishment) came up in 2006.

Next on the cards is a Space Research Facility at Challakere in Chitradurga to augment assembling and support important and special projects. The 2300-strong centre is led by Dr T.K Alex, DirectorCurrently, ISAC is handling seven communication satellites, a meteorological satellite, Chandrayaan-2, Astrosat and the Space Capsule Recovery Experiment–2 and the Indo-French SARAL.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 11 May 2012 01:56

is there any update on the Chadrayan1 data analysis?
What did we gain & how we are progressing with the terrain mapping?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 12 May 2012 01:34

We need more Univ/IIT level funding and research groups for effective use of data from all our space program missions. ISRO by itself cannot achieve excellence for the full life cycle of mission data.

This area of funding and building up resources needs immediate attention, if we are to expand our space programme and use it for visibility and impact in the larger scheme of things.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 May 2012 02:00

think about <unv>.isro.net.

it is a good investment with network itself via sats.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 12 May 2012 02:15

SaiK, did not understand that.

What I mentioned is that there is little depth in space research in most Indian Univs, and surprisingly IITs included. Ideally most work on data analysis post-launch should usually be done by the user community sitting (in universities and groups at other labs) elsewhere. From what I hear and see, all mission data now gets used to the level that ISRO scientists themselves can use (everyone has limited time) but stays archived.

We need a larger user community, the infrastructure to distribute the data is perhaps what you are referring to, but before that can come we need the people asking for the data to publish papers, theses, summer projects etc all the way down to the school level, to inspire and train the next generation.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 12 May 2012 02:17

Amen. Consumption will drive innovation.

RajSingh · Post by **RajSingh** » 12 May 2012 04:30

Actually in IIT kgp we had a "Kalpana Chawla Space research center" with direct involvement with ISRO. Though as an earth scientist I agree it is much easier for met o get data from NASA/JPL than ISRO satellites.

Earth sciences is pretty undeveloped in Indian Universities and except for a few CSIR labs and Govt research facilities hardly any good work is coming out from India in terms of Earth sciences , but let's hope it changes ..

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 12 May 2012 04:32

Indigenous space engine test Saturday

member_23229 · Post by **member_23229** » 12 May 2012 07:12

Ridiculous timelines...best of luck for the saturday cryo test

^^^ That is DDM.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 356064.ece

Quote:
“We are planning a GSLV launch with Indian cryogenic engine during September-October 2012,” Dr. Radhakrishnan said.

However, India's second moon mission Chandrayaan-2, slated for 2014, would have to wait until the ISRO carried out GSLV flights successfully, the ISRO chief said.

“We plan to fly two GSLV rockets at an interval of six months and the third will be for the Chandrayaan-2 mission.”

On the status of the GSLV Mark-III, the upgraded variant of the GSLV, Dr. Radhakrishnan said as the rocket would have a high power cryogenic engine, the engine's various subsystems had to be rigorously tested, and this could take a couple of years.

He said an experimental flight of the GSLV Mark-III without the cryogenic engine is planned during 2012-13 to test the rocket's other parameters.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 12 May 2012 17:31

The first images from RISAT-1 are out. http://www.isro.org/pslv-c19/Imagegalle ... mages.aspx

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 12 May 2012 20:05

^^^
The slide show is so fast that one can't assimilate the features in images.

Let's see whether ISRO site management team reads the feedback given on their site.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 12 May 2012 22:47

ISRO successfully tests indigenous cryogenic engine
http://www.dnaindia.com/scitech/report_ ... ne_1687992

In a major step, ISRO today successfully tested the indigenous cryogenic engine to be used to propel the country's Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle.

The test was conducted at the Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre at Mahendragiri in Tamil Nadu's Tirunelveli district.

"The acceptance test of the indigenous cryogenic engine for the forthcoming GSLV-D5 flight was conducted successfully for 200 seconds at 17:10 hrs...," an ISRO statement said.

"The performance of the engine was as predicted," it said.

The maiden flight test of the indigenous cryogenic stage onboard GSLV-D3 failed in May 2010 after it developed a snag and the rocket plunged into the sea minutes after lift-off.

ISRO chief K Radhakrishnan had said last month that GSLV would undergo two more tests at the Mahendragiri facility.

He had also said ISRO was planning a GSLV launch with Indian cryogenic engine during September-October.

ISRO plans to fly two GSLV rockets at an interval of six months with the third one meant for the Chandrayaan-2 moon mission.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 May 2012 18:52

I hope we have by now cleared all aspects of cyrogenic engine requirements, and ensure those cables and connectors are locally made and tested. The nightmare of D3 still haunts GAGAN delays.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 13 May 2012 20:46

Land for new satellite launch pad ready

The Krishna district administration came forward to allot 321 acres of land near Gollalamoda near Nagayalanka in Krishna district for setting up a satellite launching pad by Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).

The revenue officials sent necessary proposals to the central government in August last year and are waiting for central government’s clearance for the project. Speaking to this newspaper, joint collector Dr Gaurav Uppal said that they wrote to the central government for a clarification on the project. He said the ISRO officials also visited the place to study the feasibility report for the rocket launching pad.

At present, the ISRO officials are launching satellites once in two months from the available two launching pads at Sriha-rikota High Altitute Range (SHAR).

The ISRO officials sent proposals for the third launching pad at SHAR but the central government is yet to give clearance.

Meanwhile, the ISRO officials are searching for alternative sites to develop rocket launching pads to increase the frequency of rocket launching to suit the future demands.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... -ready-042

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 13 May 2012 20:50

^^^ Will ISRO use this test engine for the flight, or will a fresh engine be fabricated for the flight mission? What is the standard practice?

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 13 May 2012 21:38

dinesha wrote:ISRO successfully tests indigenous cryogenic engine
http://www.dnaindia.com/scitech/report_ ... ne_1687992
In a major step, ISRO today successfully tested the indigenous cryogenic engine to be used to propel the country's Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle.

The test was conducted at the Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre at Mahendragiri in Tamil Nadu's Tirunelveli district.

"The acceptance test of the indigenous cryogenic engine for the forthcoming GSLV-D5 flight was conducted successfully for 200 seconds at 17:10 hrs...," an ISRO statement said.

"The performance of the engine was as predicted" it said. The maiden flight test of the indigenous cryogenic stage onboard GSLV-D3 failed in May 2010 after it developed a snag and the rocket plunged into the sea minutes after lift-off.

ISRO chief K Radhakrishnan had said last month that GSLV would undergo two more tests at the Mahendragiri facility. He had also said ISRO was planning a GSLV launch with Indian cryogenic engine during September-October. ISRO plans to fly two GSLV rockets at an interval of six months with the third one meant for the Chandrayaan-2 moon mission.

If I recall right, the GSLV-D3 failed because the indigenous cryogenic motor ignited (a critical development) but did not sustain. I just found a link to an ISRO press release of the failure analysis.

http://www.isro.org/pressrelease/script ... Jul09_2010

“The above failure is attributed to the anomalous stopping of Fuel Booster Turbo Pump (FBTP). The start-up of FBTP was normal. It reached a maximum speed of 34,800 rpm and continued to function as predicted after the start of CUS. However, the speed of FBTP started dipping after 0.9 seconds and it stopped within the next 0.6 seconds,” a press release from ISRO stated.

However, point # 7 in the report seems to suggest that this is still a working theory. One would expect that ISRO was able to re-create the problem before they ran the recent engine test. Otherwise it can get dicey, the defective D3 cryogenic engine design had also successfully passed ground tests only to fail during flight. The fact that this was the first time ISRO was flying the desi cryogenic motor speaks a lot to its open-ness. The entire launch was broadcast live, including flight parameters. The failure of the launch was known to the entire world at the exact same time that ISRO knew it.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 13 May 2012 23:02

New Launch complex at Gullelamoda ( This is the correct name ).

Details of location are below:

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 13 May 2012 23:13

Marten wrote:It's amazing and very telling that even on this very forum, when we have achieved success with the cryp engine, there are barely 5 posts, whereas failure invited about ten times as many.

It isn't like that. The previous engine which failed in its maiden flight was flawless during the ground test as well.

2 Jan 2010: Isro develops cryogenic engine

Isro achieved a significant milestone recently when it successfully tested the cryogenic stage. The test was conducted for full flight duration of 720 seconds at the liquid propulsion test facility at Mahendragiri, Tamil Nadu. The indigenous cryogenic stage now remains to be tested in actual flight - on the GSLV-D3. The ground test has validated the design robustness and performance adequacy for its use in GSLV.

If ISRO shares with the jingo a reason to believe that the new ground tests are more comprehensive in scope then the jingo will have reason to celebrate as well. The jingo doesn't have any official details on what the problems were with the original design either.

I'm quite certain that the fan brigade will be back in full force before the flight.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 13 May 2012 23:27

Varoon Shekhar wrote:The first images from RISAT-1 are out. http://www.isro.org/pslv-c19/Imagegalle ... mages.aspx

Thanks, Varoon.

Did RISAT just make CARTOSAT redundant?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 13 May 2012 23:52

Business Line: Student-designed rocket launched successfully

Vyom, the sounding rocket designed by students of the Indian Institute of Space Technology, Thiruvananthapuram, blasts off from the Thumba Equatorial Rocket Launching Station at Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre, Thiruvananthapuram

Great to finally see a photograph of the sounding rocket and launch! Well done, Team Vyom!

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 14 May 2012 01:02

Marten wrote:It's amazing and very telling that even on this very forum, when we have achieved success with the cryp engine, there are barely 5 posts, whereas failure invited about ten times as many.

I hope this was not in reference to my post. If it is, you have mis-understood. Yes, the cryo engine has 'acheived success', but as far as I know, the next launch with a desi cryo engine, will be only the second time (GSLV D3 being the first). There is nothing wrong with examining the failure of the D3 rocket launch (or any other rocket launch) as long as it is based on solid data. I posted the ISRO report as a link, with their technical findings. If you have more data (or reports), please do post. Measured discussions of this nature are very much within the scope of this thread.

Here's an interview with Radhakrishnan talking about the two GSLV launches. It summarizes the issues with the second GSLV failure. The findings pointed to issues with the Russian cryo engine, and after examining the last Russian cryo engine with ISRO, some problems were found there as well. It seems like ISRO will not use it.
http://www.livemint.com/2011/07/0821384 ... e.html?h=B

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 May 2012 03:06

Thanks for the link above. It has some interesting nugget about the Lunar rover on C-II.

Does it mean all major missions till Chandrayaan-2 will only use indigenous engines? Since the Russian engine has to be examined, will Chandrayaan-2 be delayed?

Yes, it has to be tested on indigenous cryogenic engines, and we’ll only use our engines for future launches, but that is not why there will be a delay. Historically, the Chandrayaan missions are a joint Indo-Soviet mission. The agreement was that the lander [that will descend on the moon] and the (lunar) rover (a robot vehicle) would be provided by the Russians. We wanted to put a smaller rover; it’s something new that we are developing. However, in Russia there was a rethink. They decided they’ll only develop the lander and some instruments related to it. That means India would have to make a bigger rover, a decision taken almost a year ago. There are also preliminary design reviews to be undertaken this year to select which instruments are to be carried onboard the mission. So it’s not only GSLV (engines); there are other reasons for the delay.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 14 May 2012 10:19

juvva wrote:^^^ Will ISRO use this test engine for the flight, or will a fresh engine be fabricated for the flight mission? What is the standard practice?

All best wishes for GSLV launches and congrats to the scientists. Lets have successful GSLV launches and PSLV launches

Tests like above are part of the destructive testing and the engine will be discarded. designs will be freezed and a new similar copy of the engine will be used for the actual launch and will have only Non-Destructive testing. As per theory, it should work as this tested engine

shows why it is important for India to have reusable liquid / cryo engines and solid rocket motors. In that case, the same engine / motor tested can go to flight too just like in an aircraft

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 14 May 2012 14:31

symontk: thanks, does non destructive testing include start up and/or a short burn?

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 14 May 2012 15:58

ISRO's current engines will be fresh on launch, we will see a difference once RLV comes into picture

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 May 2012 17:19

How do you plan to recover from a 3rd stage use?.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 14 May 2012 19:13

PratikDas wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:The first images from RISAT-1 are out. http://www.isro.org/pslv-c19/Imagegalle ... mages.aspx
Thanks, Varoon.

Did RISAT just make CARTOSAT redundant?

No.

Radar Imaging has its own advantage that it can see through clouds and measure heights accurately ( which is not possible with Optical Imaging ) but features like vegetation etc can best be detected/interpreted with Optical Imaging. Radar images are more crispy due to the absence of haze caused by fog,dust,heat layers etc.

Each has its own advantages ( and disadvantages ) .

User can use both as supplementary to each other. This really provides a solid mix .. but is difficult. ( e.g. see the 2nd image viz Gangotri in ISROs recent image library from RISAT. You will recognize that the features belong to same area but just try to overlap the images mentally and you see the differences . This is because RADAR has a side looking geometry and its viewing angle may not match the optical satellite viewing angle. Moreover the two may have different heights. Of course the softwares take care of these differences but still..... )

Radar processing is more involved and images are generally costly.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 14 May 2012 19:18

Thanks, SSSalvi.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 14 May 2012 19:21

"If ISRO shares with the jingo a reason to believe that the new ground tests are more comprehensive in scope.."

Isro officials mentioned something about not having particular testing equipment for the D-3 cryogenic engine. Would that be the vacuum environment? Or a grade of wind tunnel? If so, they must be confident about getting around this, or do they now possess the equipment.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 14 May 2012 20:11

S^3 , you had started a thread in the Tech and economy forum ,in which you attempted to teach some basics .. Could you resume posting there again ?

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 15 May 2012 09:44

SaiK wrote:How do you plan to recover from a 3rd stage use?.

Can't it land similarly to US space shuttle? yes its a challenge and oppurtunity too

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 22 May 2012 23:42

Scientists excited about India’s own GPS

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 22 May 2012 23:45

ISRO has their own version of Heavy Lift Vehicle(HLV) in the 100t to LEO capability
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JRgHKYCaeH4/T ... lide33.JPG

It is completely dependant on the sucess of Semi-cryo which is currently in development. Each booster of HLV will sport 3-4 semi-cryo engines and the core stage with 4 semi-cryo but with ablit uprated thrust than compared to the booster engines.

Currently space-X produces ~8 Merlin eingines/month and they are planning to double the capacity in near future.

Once ISRO`s semi-cryo completes development, we need to produce atleast 12 engines/month considering that the same semi-cryo will be used on GSLV-MKIII replacing the L-110 stage.

Once the semi-cryo engine development is finished all they need is bundling them together for the HLV

apart from the development of C-100 cryo-stage which I believe they will master the cryo tech with C-25 development.

The central government Friday approved the development of semi-cryogenic engines for space transportation at a cost of Rs.1,798 crore (approx Rs.18 billion) with a foreign exchange component of Rs.588 crore (Rs.5.88 billion)

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/aero_gener ... ngine.html

And ISRO said it will take them 6 years to finish development and start production from the date of sanction.Which means by 2015 the 2MN semi-cryo will be fully available for launch

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 23 May 2012 03:10

http://www.flonnet.com/fl2406/stories/2 ... 404300.htm

This article is 5 yrs old but it might as well have been written yesterday. EVERY single word is worth reading. It clearly and succinctly explains cryo vs semi-cryo engines and the unfortunate decisions made at ISRO regarding solid vs liquid propulsion. I have to admit the Chindu blows away the rest of the DDM when it comes to science/defense reporting even if the higher ups are commie traitors.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 May 2012 09:42

Dharma R wrote:And ISRO said it will take them 6 years to finish development and start production from the date of sanction.Which means by 2015 the 2MN semi-cryo will be fully available for launch

I would not hold my breath as this is likely to be a complex technology and initial timelines will definitely not be met.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 23 May 2012 13:04

tejas wrote:http://www.flonnet.com/fl2406/stories/2 ... 404300.htm

This article is 5 yrs old but it might as well have been written yesterday. EVERY single word is worth reading. It clearly and succinctly explains cryo vs semi-cryo engines and the unfortunate decisions made at ISRO regarding solid vs liquid propulsion. I have to admit the Chindu blows away the rest of the DDM when it comes to science/defense reporting even if the higher ups are commie traitors.

Seems A motivated Western Mole influenced the import of Viking engines, killing of the development of Liquid Propellant Stage.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 May 2012 15:09

AbhiJ wrote:
tejas wrote:http://www.flonnet.com/fl2406/stories/2 ... 404300.htm

This article is 5 yrs old but it might as well have been written yesterday. EVERY single word is worth reading. It clearly and succinctly explains cryo vs semi-cryo engines and the unfortunate decisions made at ISRO regarding solid vs liquid propulsion. I have to admit the Chindu blows away the rest of the DDM when it comes to science/defense reporting even if the higher ups are commie traitors.
Seems A motivated Western Mole influenced the import of Viking engines, killing of the development of Liquid Propellant Stage.

I would not go that far without evidence.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 24 May 2012 03:30

AbhiJ wrote:
tejas wrote:http://www.flonnet.com/fl2406/stories/2 ... 404300.htm

This article is 5 yrs old but it might as well have been written yesterday. EVERY single word is worth reading. It clearly and succinctly explains cryo vs semi-cryo engines and the unfortunate decisions made at ISRO regarding solid vs liquid propulsion. I have to admit the Chindu blows away the rest of the DDM when it comes to science/defense reporting even if the higher ups are commie traitors.
Seems A motivated Western Mole influenced the import of Viking engines, killing of the development of Liquid Propellant Stage.

For ISRO to learn the basics, Viking was the only available game in town at that time:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1285830

Anyways, before CABS/RD56/KVD-1 (an engine the Russians never flew

) acquisition happened, there have been setbacks of ISRO-origin cryo development, with news reports of non-fatal explosions. The risk of a fatal explosion, when using new untested methods were way too high for India's fledgling program. For reference, check out Brazil's or South Korea's struggle with integration and how it affected their programs. Both countries are quite competent in aerospace and got good resources.

As for hush-hush stuff, the lack of a stout counter-intel program like other strategic sector was telling: from the much-maligned Nambi Narayanan to other more private individuals who get affected, no one got any closure after the scandal. Big fak-ups.

kit · Post by **kit** » 24 May 2012 11:23

The LOX Kerosene combination is used for the most powerful rocket engines including the Saturn and Energia.And i dont think all these developments were unknown to anyone.But whats interesting is ISROs lack of vision.Rocket engines being the work horses, any space faring nation can only build its capabilities on those.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 24 May 2012 17:24

kit wrote:The LOX Kerosene combination is used for the most powerful rocket engines including the Saturn and Energia.And i dont think all these developments were unknown to anyone.But whats interesting is ISROs lack of vision.Rocket engines being the work horses, any space faring nation can only build its capabilities on those.

I guess it wont be a good idea to call it lack of vision. US & USSR were big players at the time. We were still trying to get our basics right. It might be more of choosing a safe path.