Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 06 May 2012 11:20

^^^ BSF dhruvs have wheels

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 May 2012 03:55

Pilatus set to bag $700 mn IAF jet trainer deal

That averages out to be around $9.3 million per plane.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 08 May 2012 08:31

^^ That isnt right accounting. Deal includes simulators, maintenance equipment and assembling/manufacturing equipment, and dealsize divided by number of planes isnt the correct accounting method.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2012 08:54

it might include some level of vendor support for a few years as well...most big deals do.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2012 11:02

I just hope no matter or reason why we imported the hawk or turbo trainer , the next set of AJT and Turbo Trainer would be an all indian designed and built when ever the need is felt for it.

There were too many fckup with projects like Combat Air Trainer ( CAT ) , HAL LOH and HTT-40 but i dearly hope that was our last mistake.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2012 11:25

for that to happen, HAL has to deliver and support the IJT in a very confident way....the june 2012 target for IOC is being missed, their is no sign of any flying IJT after the crash, the project status and new timelines are unknown to us here.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2012 11:40

I hope the problem is not serious which is to say no fundamental design flaw , hope she is in the air soon.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2012 15:10

Talk of IJT and we have a situation...

After Basic, Intermediate Trainer Crisis Looms For IAF

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2012 22:04

afaik the IJT has not flown at all after the crash?

is the AL55 engine production ready and fittable on new protos?

the project cannot be doing well, else we would have heard more of it, and seen test flights.

gnair · Post by **gnair** » 09 May 2012 03:34

There was an unconfirmed report sometime ago, that there were structural issues that surfaced for the IJT during coupling tests. Won't be surprised if it's back in the design bureau. AL-41 integration was completed and there were no issues there apparently.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 May 2012 04:58

tsarkar wrote:^^ That isnt right accounting. Deal includes simulators, maintenance equipment and assembling/manufacturing equipment, and dealsize divided by number of planes isnt the correct accounting method.

Yes. We know that. The average figures are more for getting an idea of what the spread is for overall deal (in simple terms that is

).

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 May 2012 05:18

gnair wrote:AL-41 integration was completed and there were no issues there apparently.

You mean AL-55.

gnair · Post by **gnair** » 09 May 2012 06:34

pardon me. AL-55

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 May 2012 07:11

why its not flying daily then using a half dozen protos? the FCS being presumably analog, with austere avionics the complexity would appear much lesser than Tejas.

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 09 May 2012 08:50

Russian engine for the Indian Air Force meets the customer’s requirements

Date: Apri 18, 2012

“The HJT-36 developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is a reliable aircraft, is India’s national pride. It is the first aircraft made by Indians. The basic parameters of the engine meet the customer’s requirements and it flies well. There have been no engine-related accidents or problems, so we are also proud of it. We have executed two contracts; research and development work has been completed. Four engines have been delivered to India and will soon be installed in aircraft”, Fedorov said.

The engine was developed and built in a record time of only three years. As part of the contract with HAL, research is now under way with a view to increasing the service life of the AL-55I to 300 hours. A new batch of 10 engines is currently in production – these engines were contracted to be delivered in 2011–2012.

“It is no secret that the contract will be continued”, the Saturn head told ITAR-TASS.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 May 2012 08:56

>> to increasing the service life of the AL-55I to 300 hours

I guess that a typo and should read 3000 hrs. I think the engine delivery delay and the crash and investigation pushed the program back by 2 yrs. if next 2 yrs if it can fly with Al55 engine and meet the specs, IOC can be perhaps expected in mid 2014.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 May 2012 21:32

^^^

I think it was more like the program was delayed by around 4 years ...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 May 2012 06:53

Maybe a bit OT but quite interesting...

Online Aviation Mueseum

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 May 2012 14:36

India’s Rustom 1 reaches 50km flight milestone in test flight

India's Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) Rustom 1 unmanned air system is still undergoing testing and recently completed its 14th successful flight.

In a statement, India's government said the 14th flight achieved two milestones: the heaviest take-off weight of 690kg (1,520lb) since testing began in November 2009; and the farthest flight from base thus far, 50km (27nm).

The flight took place from a location in India's southern Karnataka province on 8 May. It lasted 2h and 10min, with the Rustom 1 reaching a top speed of 75kt (140km/h) and altitude of 11,500ft (3,500m).

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 May 2012 21:08

Acquisition of 75 Pilatus PC-7 Mk 2 approved by the CCS:

Govt clears Rs.1,800 crore trainer aircraft deal

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 May 2012 05:47

Safety on the fly

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 May 2012 12:30

DNA also reports that 100+ PC-& MKIIs will be built by HAL under license. If true it strengthens my belief that HAL would rather license manufacture aircraft since margins are likely to be better (and less hassles) than co-develop or develop on its own.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 May 2012 13:19

+100. its like services co (cash rich) but unwilling to do new product development in a uncertain customer market. with license made the deal is already done and margins are 400% assured by the rulebook.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 11 May 2012 15:34

HAL-CONNECT-ISSUE-2

PT2 of Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) commenced
flight testing after modification of 3 primary flight
control system circuits in Feb 2012.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 May 2012 17:14

masha allah. they are likely testing it someplace like Bidar and not in blr else someone would have seen it.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 May 2012 18:37

About time. Need it in service ASAP.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 May 2012 22:33

article in India today may 2012

mirage squadrons still curtailed from full regime 50 days after the 2 crashes as root cause still not found ... only limited training flights allowed
trainee pilots at greater risk in Kirans for basic takeoff / landing training due to HPT32 all gone
3 x Mig27 squadrons facing some spares shortage

all Mig21 and Mig27 to go out by 2017

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 13 May 2012 23:08

wheeled Dhruv versions are there in IAF too...so are the ones built for NDMA, ONGC etc.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 13 May 2012 23:41

Any news on the ALH WSI? Whats the status of the tests and when is the planned induction into IA/IAF?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 May 2012 01:11

Without going into the Pilot's vs. Air India problems, can the IAF use its pilots to sustain the airline's critical operations in the short term? do a significant percent of mil pilots from the cargo stream cross train and are certified with the civilian planes? In the whole episode it seems there is no backup plan for the govt.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 May 2012 07:39

Singha wrote:article in India today may 2012

mirage squadrons still curtailed from full regime 50 days after the 2 crashes as root cause still not found ... only limited training flights allowed
trainee pilots at greater risk in Kirans for basic takeoff / landing training due to HPT32 all gone
3 x Mig27 squadrons facing some spares shortage

all Mig21 and Mig27 to go out by 2017

There is a similar sounding article on the IBN website. They expect numbers down to 31 sqds in the next 5 years from current state of 34 sqds. So outgoing = 6 sqds of Bison + 2 sqds of Bis + 3 sqd of floggers. Incoming = 6 sqd of MKI + 1 sqd Tejas mk1 + 1 sqd Rafale. So short by around 3-4 sqds at least compared to current levels, not good - very slim pickings

May be they can have France to ramp up production and inject another sqd of Rafale? However, it will take some time to famiiliarize with the bird and etch out tactics/Ops etc.. Perhaps an extra sqd of M2ks (ex AdlA or Qatar), 29s or even MKI won't be remiss.

In the meanwhile, the IN will get the Vikad + Vikrant. Assuming 2 sqds worth of Fulcrum Ks to be available there in case s**t hits the fan.

What about PAF during this time? I assume they'll get 2 sqds of F-16 blk50 + at least 3 sqd JF-17 + 1 sqd J10. Of course they'll drop some Mirages in this time. Did they get their F-7's BVR equipped yet? Last I heard they did have a decent Italian kit in the nose. But am not sure if their plans mating with any BVR AAM took off.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 May 2012 07:49

Cain Marko wrote:
There is a similar sounding article on the IBN website. They expect numbers down to 31 sqds in the next 5 years from current state of 34 sqds. So outgoing = 6 sqds of Bison + 2 sqds of Bis + 3 sqd of floggers. Incoming = 6 sqd of MKI + 1 sqd Tejas mk1 + 1 sqd Rafale. So short by around 3-4 sqds at least compared to current levels, not good - very slim pickings

I had asked in this thread a couple of pages back whether it was possible to estimate the number of Mig-21s still left in active service. We still have a few M/MF squadrons left if I'm not mistaken in addition to the non-upgraded Bis. So the number going out could be higher if all of them are to be retired. Personally I think the IAF will retire the older ones and some of the Floggers while holding off on retiring the Bisons till the Rafale/LCA are available in numbers. It is better to have old Bisons than nothing at all.

As for the PAF, their F-7s should also be up for retirement I guess.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 May 2012 08:31

vasu raya wrote:Without going into the Pilot's vs. Air India problems, can the IAF use its pilots to sustain the airline's critical operations in the short term? do a significant percent of mil pilots from the cargo stream cross train and are certified with the civilian planes? In the whole episode it seems there is no backup plan for the govt.

Air India's problems are because it is a private airline used as their own by many in government. Why pull the IAF into this disease ridden organization? Maybe because of IndiAman ki Ashes - GoI is putting Air India in fierce competition with PIA.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 May 2012 08:31

^ I think the St. Antony has mentioned retiring the Bisons starting 2014. I think the 21MFs are already gone and the Bis is on it's way out. By 2014 they'll all be gone and then the Bisons will start.

PAF F7s are still somewhat fresh - induction started in late 80s, and they bought a few as recently as 2000. What I'd be concerned about is if they managed to get some kind of BVR AAM mated to the Grifo radar. Ditto about those Mirage IIIs they are flogging. Last I read, they were trying to get the A Darter program going with South Africa. Or may be some Chinese AAM?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2012 08:56

PAF F7 will be around for a long time. the Mirages are likely to get replaced first with JF17. the A5 fantan and F6 must all be retired by now.

while we obviously pay a lot of attention to IAF obsolescence issues, the pakis and cheen also have their issues though its not publicized.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 14 May 2012 18:08

Singha wrote:for that to happen, HAL has to deliver and support the IJT in a very confident way....the june 2012 target for IOC is being missed, their is no sign of any flying IJT after the crash, the project status and new timelines are unknown to us here.

Singha, the target was initially july 2011 which was shifted to dec 2011.

however HAL inhouse magazine says the flight testing has resumed from feb 2012. exact quote -

PT2 of Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) commenced flight testing after modification of 3 primary flight control system circuits in Feb 2012.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 May 2012 22:45

Singha wrote:PAF F7 will be around for a long time. the Mirages are likely to get replaced first with JF17. the A5 fantan and F6 must all be retired by now.

while we obviously pay a lot of attention to IAF obsolescence issues, the pakis and cheen also have their issues though its not publicized.

This is from Kaiser Tufail's blog

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

So in 1999 at least the pakis did not consider any aircraft in their inventory except the F-16 a worthy adversary to the IAF. Kaiser Tufail's comment about the F-7 not having any air-intercept radar is remarkable, considering they are supposed to be equipped with the Grifo. However a look at the F-7PG pictures shows a very small nose cone (nearly akin to the original Mig-21 F-13 on which the J-7 is based). So I am highly skeptical of the capabilities of that radar even in comparison to the old Soviet radars on the Mig-21M and Bis. Kaiser Tufail seems to dismiss the Mirages out of hand, which is surprising as well. Perhaps his concern was because of the condition of the fleet rather than the capabilities of the aircraft.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 14 May 2012 23:24

Maybe he was referring to their capabilities vis-a-vis the IAF birds performing CAP duties then.
AFAIK, as good as the Mirage III's are, they are no match. for MiG 29's, even if you take its vanilla version

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 May 2012 09:01

From Livefist:

The Indian Air Force has provided a laundry list of delays by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in the delivery of flagship products. IAF disenchantment with HAL has been well known for years, but now specifics have been listed by the Defence Minister in Parliament:

"The government has taken cognizance of the complaints of Indian Air Force regarding the delayed delivery of equipment by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). IAF has expressed concerns over the deliveries of some of the products of HAL. There have been delays in some projects in current range of production by HAL due to rework of Jigs supplied by the OEM in respect of Hawk; delay in establishing the facilities for complex engine components and radar software in respect of Su-30 MKI aircraft; delay in certification of Shakti engine by the OEM in respect of ALH; changes in Standard of Preparation (SOP) in respect of LCA and delay in engine development by the OEM in respect of IJT. The government continuously monitors the performance of the company and takes steps to address the issues. In respect of Hawk, Su-30 MKI aircraft and ALH, the issues have been addressed. In respect of LCA and IJT development efforts have been intensified."

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 May 2012 09:12

Any news on the UAE Rafale deal and the availability of their M2k-5/9? I'd sure like India to get those birds - we have spent enough in terms of infrastructure I'd think to be able to use those. If they can transfer 1 M2K sqd per year for 3-4 years in lieu of new built Rafales directly from France, it'd be really cool and would certainly help address the shortage in the short term for the IAF.