Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 May 2012 21:01

My answer also was to the original writer.

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 22 May 2012 21:46

I am surprised that there is no discussion on akash user trial today.
Is it success?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 22 May 2012 22:26

Singha wrote:we chose the losing horse combo of fuels in 80s.

What would that be?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 May 2012 22:47

ShauryaT, The recieved wisdom for a two person game is that with increasingly accurate missiles, land based MIRVs are destabilizing as they can invite a first strike. So the writers are coming from that point of view. However if the two person game is between PRC and India then its another matter for it depends on the capabilites of PRC only: accuracy, sat recon capability, and large numbers to assign to India. India already has a NFU posture which increases the stability. Also the BMD is a stability enhancing move on India's side for it assures some protection to its missiles.

So again the writers are looking at it from US prespective and giving wrong advice. They are screaming wolf after seeing a stuffed toy.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 22 May 2012 23:14

SaiK wrote:..... the psi at that deep is near 15k... any mistake would have crushed him to molucules for deep sea creatures to enjoy.[there are living creatures at that pressure. wow].

so, we could study those animals, and building data for deep sea vehicles.

Actually, there is no secret to the survival of life at such pressures. It's a simple matter of intra-cellular pressure being sufficient to maintain cellular structure under extreme hydrologic pressure from being at the bottom of the ocean.

Their cells are pressurized.

The problem with submarines is that they are supposed to maintain human-safe pressure levels, while diving at depth. This can only be done with massive structural strength.

The lesson for submarines to learn from deep sea creatures, would be to shed the weight by learning to pressurize submariners!

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 23 May 2012 01:19

BS People: V K Saraswat.

On April 19, after Agni-V hit its designated target far out in the Indian Ocean, the photograph of V K Saraswat being hoisted up by a fellow scientist, just as Saraswat had done to A P J Abdul Kalam on the successful launch of the Prithvi missile, flooded papers in India. "It was a fitting tribute to a go-getter and a leader who always shuns limelight, never wanting to steal the thunder from junior scientists,” said a scientist speaking of Vijay Kumar Saraswat, director general of the Defence Research and Development Organisation, Secretary of Defence Research and development and the chief scientific advisor to the Minister of Defence.

“India is a missile power now," a jubilant Saraswat had said after the launch of Agni-V. The missile’s range is just 500-km short of being termed an Inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM), which has a 5,500-km radius.

Saraswat, a PhD in combustion engineering, started his career in DRDO in 1972 at the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad, and was responsible for the development of the country’s first liquid propulsion engine. As the project director of ‘Prithvi’, he steered the design, development, production and induction of the first indigenous surface-to-surface missile system into the armed forces.

The successful testing of ‘Dhanush’ missile aboard a moving ship with high terminal accuracy brought a new dimension to the national defence capability. As program director of Air Defence, Saraswat pioneered the concept of theatre defence system and integration of national air defence elements. He was director, Research Centre Imarat (RCI), before taking over as CCR&D (MSS) in November, 2005.

Under the leadership of Saraswat, India has embarked on a futuristic Air Defence Programme encompassing development of complex anti-ballistic missile systems, radars, C41 systems and integration of battle-management resources into a national authority.

However, Saraswat and DRDO are not without their critics. They argue that Saraswat’s comments about “high hit to kill ratios” because of the ability to ‘now pack four missiles onto one’ suggest an abandoning of the pursuit of credible minimum deterrent. The comments instead suggest a striving for nuclear first-strike capability and therefore nuclear superiority—things that are more than likely to spur a nuclear arms race in the region, they say.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 May 2012 01:49

Who are these critics? We never heard of them before. Is Mr. Narang of MIT one of them?

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 23 May 2012 03:17

^^^^
Critics schmitics...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2012 03:30

BS going about BS-ing that ends with no ownership - "they say" !?!?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 May 2012 09:24

hnair wrote:
Singha wrote:we chose the losing horse combo of fuels in 80s.
What would that be?

LOX/H2 instead of LOX/Kerosene?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2012 09:28

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 May 2012 09:32

^ I think somewhere in the past a point was made about the choice of liquid fuels we chose for our space programme i.e. dual use.

Having said that yes nothing like LOX+Kerosene powered RD-170 , that is one area of rocketry where even today Ru leads the pack.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 23 May 2012 09:52

Cross posting from the Space thread.

http://www.flonnet.com/fl2406/stories/2 ... 404300.htm

This article is 5 yrs old but it might as well have been written yesterday. EVERY single word is worth reading. It clearly and succinctly explains cryo vs semi-cryo engines and the unfortunate decisions made at ISRO regarding solid vs liquid propulsion. I have to admit the Chindu blows away the rest of the DDM when it comes to science/defense reporting even if the higher ups are commie traitors.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 May 2012 09:53

X-post:

sum wrote:From Tarmak007:
The AeSI has selected Mr Muthukrishnan Kannan of RCI for the prestigious Swarna Jayanthi Award for his outstanding contributions valuable contributions in the development of Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) of various class for missiles, aircrafts, ships and submarines. He has been the group head of INS division since 2010. He has also headed the INS team for BrahMos Cruise Missile and was the project lead for Indigenous Navigation Systems for Naval Ships.
In his present designation as Group Head, INS division he plays a pivotal role in many ongoing projects such as development of Ring Laser Gyro (RLG) based INS+GPS+GLONASS (Global Navigation Satellite System) systems. The technology is used in Agni-iii, HAL Tejas, and Shaurya missile. He was also responsible for development, testing, performance evaluation and delivery of INS for Brahmos Missiles.

As a systems developer Kannan was responsible for the Development, testing, Performance Evaluation and Delivery of Navigation System for AD (AD-1 and AD-2 are being developed as intercept ballistic missiles with a range of 5000 kilometers) Mission as well as the Prototype System Development and Flight Performance Evaluation of the system. He was also involved He was the project leader for “Indigenous Navigation System for Naval War ships i.e. a system purpose is also to serve as a Master INS system for ship-launched versions of missiles.

Kannan passed B.E in electronics and communication from Madurai Kamraj University and M.E in avionics from Anna University and joined RCI (Research Center Imarat) on June 1997 with the designation a “scientist B”. He has been in RCI ever since. He became a “C” scientist in 2000, D grade scientist in 2004 and an E grade scientist in July 2008. The distinguished scientist also has a plethora of publications to his credit. A few of them are Quick Reaction Strap down INS for Brahmos, INS+GPS integrated system for canisterized missiles, Micro machined Accelerometer Systems. Some of his commendable achievements are the designing and development of the first DTG based integrated INS+SATNAV scheme & system (for Programme AD), which turned out to be the precursor for the other versions of Integrated INS+SATNAV systems developed for all the other strategic and tactical missile programmes of DRDO. Another achievement was the development of DTG based Quick Reaction INS for the Indo-Russian Joint Venture BrahMos missile project. He was also involved in periodic re- calibration of BrahMos INS.

Kannan Muthukrishnan has also received Agni award for excellence in self reliance for the year 2008 for contributions towards development of Navigation system for Air Defense (AD) missile as well as well as award of RCI for the year 2010.He is also a life member of Astronautical Society of India and Sensors Research Society.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 23 May 2012 10:21

Thank you negi-saar. There is no losing combo for a country that struggled hard with budgets, extreme churlishness of countries led by US and yet came out with
1) successful and reliable large diameter solid rocket boosters along with the people that can make them
2) air-lit reliable engines which use easy to ignite hypergolic propellants and how to store them for prolonged times and the people that can make them
3) scalable designs to increase payloads and the people that can make them

The Indian Space program till 2008 was about developing competency in areas of survival both in orbital and sub-orbital regimes. An Ekalavyan journey for self-taught design bureaus ( to use a soviet term), who got rare and problematic leg-ups like the Vulcan and CABS. Despite the MTCR attempts at cutting off the thumb, this Ekalavyan still shoots straight.

Forget RD-170 (the soviets had flame stabilization issues with larger engines but unlike the Saturn V ones, these did not get fixed before their leadership lost interest), even the elderly (superb and highly reliable) RD-107 was off limits. Those multi-nozzle engines are like their crown-jewel, forged by Soviets elves of the calibre of Glushko.

Personal takleef of people involved in various projects that did not get funding is understandable. But aam-jingos calling something a "losing horse combo", based on current budgetary affluence is not right towards the thousands of men and women who fulfilled the mandate of the nation's leadership. While we can argue about GTO/LEO payloads, Prof Dhawan's and Dr Gawarikar's choices are yet to be proven wrong for India, the nation.

We need not race to space - it will still be there long after we are gone. But India needs to prolong its existence on earth and ISRO did its part.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2012 10:50

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Glushko

our 2012 IIT JEE topper has already declared his solemn intent to finish btech CSE in iit dilli and then go to IIM for MBA...followed no doubt by a superb gilded career in gold-man sacks or such.

on the fate of the top5% the fortunes of Empires rest....

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 May 2012 11:19

Hnair sir I think it was maulana Gerard who made that point a few years ago in space dhaga.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 23 May 2012 12:28

Agni VI to be 10,000 Km Land Based Missile and 6,000 Km SLBM.

Being developed by the DRDO, the new generation ICBM Agni-VI will have a strike range of 8,000 km to 10,000 km.

A reliable source told ‘The Express’ that the drawing and designing work of the most advanced missile had been started.

It will be a three-stage missile and taller than the Agni-V. The design is just taking shape and other sub systems are under development. If everything goes as per the programme, the missile will be ready by mid 2014,

While the length of the missile would be reportedly around 40 meters as against Agni-V’s 17.5 meter, its diameter will be 1.1 meter, which is almost half of Agni-V. The missile’s launch weight would be around 55 tonne.

The DRDO is also working on integrating Agni-V with submarine.

Apart from the Agni-VI’s ground version, the DRDO is also simultaneously working out for its underground variant. The submarine launched version of the missile will arm the Arihant class submarines of the Indian Navy. This missile with a strike range of 6,000 kilometers can carry a payload of one tonne.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/agnivi-to-be ... 0-117.html

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 May 2012 12:48

Abhi J- 40 meter missile weighs only 55 tonnes and dia of 1.1, the lentils are definately black in the report. Why would DRDO design such a missile. where can we move a 130ft long missile. Unless offcourse it is a Silo based Missile?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 23 May 2012 12:49

Aditya_V wrote:Abhi J- 40 meter missile and weighs only 55 tonnes, the lentils are definately black in the report.

+1

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 May 2012 12:51

AbhiJ wrote: While the length of the missile would be reportedly around 40 meters as against Agni-V’s 17.5 meter, its diameter will be 1.1 meter, which is almost half of Agni-V. The missile’s launch weight would be around 55 tonne.

Their "reliable" source may not be so reliable. Reducing the diameter and increasing length to 40m

makes no sense. It will be impossible to have a road mobile launcher that big and it will not fit inside a submarine.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 23 May 2012 12:59

Aditya_V wrote:Abhi J- 40 meter missile weighs only 55 tonnes and dia of 1.1, the lentils are definately black in the report. Why would DRDO design such a missile. where can we move a 130ft long missile. Unless offcourse it is a Silo based Missile?

Same Thoughts. But Agni VI Land Based could be 10,000 Km. Still Speculating. Don't Trust these Abduls Whatever they Write.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 23 May 2012 13:11

So finally we will have a missile with about 13000 kms range which can reach any part of unkil or the world for that matter. Will be very interesting to note unkil's reaction to this or if it will be just as dismissive as the one for agni-V. Never again will we have a threat of our nuclear weapons being taken out by a pre-emptive strike by the big-5 given we have a clear deterrence against all of them now. And if you are wondering why Unkil would want to take out our nuclear weapons pre-emptively, read Arun Vishwakarma's notes (IIRC) on why this would happen.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2012 13:19

some was pulling the reporters leg to see if it would actually get published. must be loud cheers and laughter discussing the report over coffee somewhere in DRDO !

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 23 May 2012 14:24

While the length of the missile would be reportedly around 40 meters as against Agni-V’s 17.5 meter, its diameter will be 1.1 meter, which is almost half of Agni-V. The missile’s launch weight would be around 55 tonne.

i guess the reliable source might have said "fourteen" and reporter heard "forty". this mango has started dreaming about a missile 14m tall, 1.1m wide and travelling 10000km!!

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 23 May 2012 14:39

adityadange wrote: .... this mango has started dreaming about a missile 14m tall, 1.1m wide and travelling 10000km!!

^^^
I know, it sounds outlandish, and probably is.
This is in all liklihood an example of mistaken technical details.

Or.................... There's a new solid fuel involved that is significantly denser, therefore heavier, but also much more energic.......... and 10,000 km is still a low-ball estimate.

NB: A thinner missile has to "punch through" much less air.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 May 2012 14:45

look at the bright side. We wont have to wait for agony 10 to reach a range of 10k km.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 23 May 2012 14:56

The standard size of a shipping container is 40 feet or approx 12 meter and can technically carry 40~50 tonnes.
With some adjustments can we actually fit Agni 6 inside similar containers and make them road mobile across our country?
mango indians may not know what is inside, what looks like a standard 40 feet container but is actually transporting a missile which can hit anywhere on the planet.
It forms one hell of a deterrence for us to have such mobility and invisibility.
They are difficult to target since no one really knows where they can be!

OK! I might have had one peg too much

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2012 15:22

the heavy anchors and firing platform at the end of container would give it away unless these were concealed in a folding system 007 style.

> his mango has started dreaming about a missile 14m tall, 1.1m wide and travelling 10000km!!

I dont see how such a small missile could be 55t
Midgetman missile specs:
Weight 13,600 kg (30,000 lb)
Length 14 m (46 ft)
Diameter 1.17 m (3 ft 10 in)
Blast yield 475 kiloton
Propellant solid fuel
range 11,000 kilometers (6,800 mi)
Accuracy 90 m (300 ft) CEP
Launch platform Hard Mobile Launcher (HML)

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 23 May 2012 17:05

Altair wrote:The standard size of a shipping container is 40 feet or approx 12 meter and can technically carry 40~50 tonnes.
With some adjustments can we actually fit Agni 6 inside similar containers and make them road mobile across our country?
mango indians may not know what is inside, what looks like a standard 40 feet container but is actually transporting a missile which can hit anywhere on the planet.
It forms one hell of a deterrence for us to have such mobility and invisibility.
They are difficult to target since no one really knows where they can be!

OK! I might have had one peg too much

Not 'you might have'. You did have a dozen of extra pegs

.
An ICBM can not be put inside a 12 meter container. Even a 12 meter missile requires some 13 to 14 meter long container to have all its launch aids accommodated.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 23 May 2012 17:12

It has to be 14m (instead of 40m) and 2.1m(instead of 1.1)

His reliable source might have been bad at understand numbers when spoken in fingrajee?

If the mizzile is of above specs with 55t ,then it certainly is of Trident class. Means DRDO is fast tracking for the next Arihant class.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2012 17:41

and so much for this, as we have already acheived the configuration for 10km wala in the A5.. All we need is a different shroud now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2012 19:59

>> It has to be 14m (instead of 40m) and 2.1m(instead of 1.1)

+1. thats a good spec for a SLBM.

nits · Post by **nits** » 23 May 2012 23:10

Indigenous Indian Missile Arsenal : Present and Future

Short-range ballistic missile (SRBM)

Prithvi 1 : 150 Km (Army) - Inducted
Prithvi 2 : 250 Km (Air force) - Inducted
Prithvi III (Dhanush) : 350 Km (Navy) - Inducted

Medium range ballistic missile (MRBM) and Long range ballistic missile (LRBM)

Agni (TD) : 1500 km – Assumed retired
Agni-1 : 700 Km – Inducted
Agni-2 : 2000-2500 Km – Inducted
Agni-3 : 3500-5000 Km -Inducted
Agni – 4: (Agni 2 Prime ) – 2500-3500 km – To be Inducted
Agni-5: 5000-8000 km – Test Phase
Agni-6: 6000-10000 km – In Development

Cruise Missiles

BrahMos (Supersonic) : 290 km – Inducted
Nirbhay (Sub-sonic) :1000 km – In development
BrahMos-2 (Hypersonic) : 290 km - In development
Long-Range Cruise Missile (LRCM) (Supersonic) : 1000 km - In development

Submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM)

K-15 Sagarika : 700 km – Last tested on 11 March 2012 for full range – Testing Phase
K-4 : 3,500-5,000 km - Rumored to be based on Agni-III variant - In development
K-5 : 6,000 km – 8000km - Rumored to be based on Agni-VI variant - In development

Tactical missiles

LRSAM (Barak-8) : 70 Km – Surface to Air Missiles under Joint Development with Israel and India , first test likely soon (Navy)
MRSAM: 70 km - Surface to Air Missiles under Joint Development with Israel and India , Modified variant of LRSAM for Air force
SRSAM: Range 15 Km , Negotiations with France on JV .
Shaurya missile : 1000-1800 Km – Rumored to be Land based Variant of K-15 Sagarika - Inducted
Prahar : 150 KM – Battlefield support tactical system – In Test Phase
Pinaka : 40 km - Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher – Inducted
Pinaka 2 : 120 km - In Development – Design Phase
Nag missile – 4km – Anti-tank missiles – In Process of Induction
Helina- 7Km- Helicopter carried version – In Test Phase
Astra missile Mk1 – 80 km – Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air to Air to missile – In Trail Phase
Astra missile Mk2 – 100-120 km – Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air to Air to missile – Design Phase

BMD missile system

Phase-I: AAD and PAD. For IRBM class of missiles (Development completed )
Phase-II: AD1 & AD2 for ICBM class of missiles. (In design Phase)

Source - http://idrw.org/?p=11663#more-11663

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 23 May 2012 23:36

^^ Missing Akash?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 24 May 2012 02:02

Has Dhanush as a missile entered the service yet ? If yes, on which ships ?

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 May 2012 02:46

^^^

Brahmos-3 -> smaller version of the Brahmos that will be compatible with more aircraft types (in R&D)

ARM -> (in R&D)

nits · Post by **nits** » 24 May 2012 07:57

Just wondering Logistic nightmares we will have in War scenario...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 May 2012 08:24

Is India making a 8000KM+ Agni or claiming she is capable of making one?

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 24 May 2012 09:35

Agni V was 8000km capable.