Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

[ramana]

The interplay between the Kauravas with Bhishma, Kripa, Drona, Karna and Ashwattama (all possessing access to Divya Astras) and the Pandavas with Arjuna are good example of deterrence and breakdown.
Yuddhishtir sends Arjuna to seek Divya Astras because in future they may be needed as Kauravas have people who already posess them.
Once Arjuna obtains them there is deterrence so to speak in the Mahabharat war. He shows his possession in the Uttara Gau-Grahana episode when he single handledly defeats the Kaurava warriors and puts them to sleep. Prince Uttar Kumar cuts of the head crest of the warriors. The message being he could have used the knife a little lower. This is demonstration of posession of Divya Astras.

Bhisma comes up with a non-use agreement which is followed as long as he is the commander. So neither side uses them. There is one episode that Krishna wants to use his chakra on Bhisma as Arjuna was not willing to fight to defeat Bhisma. So here a rational actor thinks of deterrence breakdown.

Deterrence finally breaks down after Bhisma is no longer the commander.

In fact deception and subterfuge become the Kaurava tools under Drona. He organizes the Army in one formation and when Arjuna is drawn away he rearranges it into Chakravuyha with object of capturing Yuddhishtir. What Duryodhana plans to do is not clear but it would have ended the war. So Abhimanyu's death was to prevent a bigger goal of the Kauravas to capture Yuddhishtir. We forget this most of the time.

Once deception and subterfuge is in play breakdown of deterrence follows soon. Pandavas resort to Rakshasa forces. This is first time the Rakshasas are on good sede!!!

Also the effect of having puny or limited Divya Astras is shown numerous times. Baghadatta uses his goad (tool to control the war elephant) as a Divya Astra but it becomes a garland on Krishna. What it means is Krishna absorbed the limited strike of that weapon.

Karna uses up his one-time Shakti weapon on Gattothkatch. Again lack of sufficient numbers is at play.

The last day shows what happens when Divya Astras are with irrational players.
The Kauravas are aleady defeated and yet Duryodhana appoints Ashwattama as his commander and urges him to use his Divya Astras to destory the Pandavas. Here the irrational Ashwattama who is already enraged at the death of his father uses the Brahma Astra to destory the Pandavas. Arjuna uses the same and recalls it upon urging of all the wise well meaning folks(WKKs). Ashwattama cannot for he did not learn that from his father Drona.
Krishna saves them again.

[Yagnasri]

The talk between Arjuna and Dharmaraja just before the war is indication of the power and control Arjuna has - he says that he has Pasupatha given by the Lord Shiva, but as the Lord told him not to use the said weapon on common people he will not use it. he goes on to say that one angry glance from a man like Dharmaraja will destroy entire Kuru army. Regarding Ashwadhana - His first act on hearing of his fathers death and beheading of his dead body by Drushtadhumna ( on which even Pandavas got very angry) is to use Narayanastra - a weapon which targets and kills only people having weapons and on a vahicles- Krishan asks all Pandavas and their army to drop their weapons and get down from their vehicles and that weapon is rendered harmless. ( See the advance ideas there)

[Aditya_V]

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Also the effect of having puny or limited Divya Astras is shown numerous times. Baghadatta uses his goad (tool to control the war elephant) as a Divya Astra but it becomes a garland on Krishna. What it means is Krishna absorbed the limited strike of that weapon.

Karna uses up his one-time Shakti weapon on Gattothkatch. Again lack of sufficient numbers is at play.

The last day shows what happens when Divya Astras are with irrational players.
The Kauravas are aleady defeated and yet Duryodhana appoints Ashwattama as his commander and urges him to use his Divya Astras to destory the Pandavas. Here the irrational Ashwattama who is already enraged at the death of his father uses the Brahma Astra to destory the Pandavas. Arjuna uses the same and recalls it upon urging of all the wise well meaning folks(WKKs). Ashwattama cannot for he did not learn that from his father Drona.
Krishna saves them again.

2 Exceptions- Baghadatta fires the Narayana Astra for which none can save Arjuna except Krishna, It is Krishna who asks both Arjuna and Ashwattama to recall thier weapons since the Brahmaastras will kill countless innocents whent hey meet, Arjuna can, Ashwattama knowledge is limited and he cannot, all he can is redirect its energy to a low yeild that creates huge heat in Uttara womb where Krishna saves Parikshitte.

[ManishH]

Interesting discussion on the relevance of organizing yajña in this day and age. The backdrop is a Rājasūya yajña performed in Karnataka a few months ago. Two panelists are Hindu astrologers who question the relevance; another panelist is a priest (but not an astrologer).

Some of the points raised here give us insights into how internal dissent is one of the chief causes of the evolutionary nature of Hindu religion. Oft made fun of as "argumentative Indian" by westerners who are more comfortable with a religious life of stasis.

Introduction:

Recently, the Vājapeya yajña was performed in Kalladaka (South Canara). Now Rajasūya yajña is being performed at Durgadevi temple in Gadag district for a duration of 5 days.

Let's see what benefits accrue from this. People of all religions are participating in this yajña. There are 19 fire altars for this yajña under a stone dome (śila-manṭapa). The yajña site has been named indraprastha nagara. The pontiffs participating in this are from Udupi's Palemar mutt, Pejawar mutt, Prakash Avadhut swami ji & Adikeshavarajacharya from Himachala Pradesh are participating in this.

The yajña is being performed for public wellbeing. With veda-mantra and 22 dvasaptadi mantras. Around 50 kgs of ghee and 5 tractor loads of materiel is being used per day for this yajña. It runs every day from 6am - 12pm. The cost is running into lakhs of rupees. It's been 5 years since the last Rajasūya. It's said that since Pānḍava's timeperiod, such a large yajña hasn't been organized yet.

Discussion Panel:

Haridas Bhat - Purnaprajna Trust
Harish Kashyap, Melukote Srinivas - Astrologers

Q: What is rājasūya yajña ?

H. Bhat: According to Bhagwat Gita, when Brahma created the world, he is also created yajña; and ordained that people should worship the invisible Gods via yajña, and feed them with food via oblation (havis). Yajña is called the communication mechanism between mortals and Gods.

Rāja svarāja kāma rājasūyena yajayata. A kṣatriya performs this yajña for obtaining his kingdom. Since these days it is rule of people, they are doing this yajña for realizing their wishes. Every family here is the yajamāna.

Per śāstra, in this yajña, the kṣatriya is the yajamāna for this yajña. Specifically, this performance is called the madhwa-rājasūya yajña. This variation is specifically in a vaiśnava paddhati (rite). The aim is to bring peace to entire citizenry, state and country.

Q: What do you think is the objective of this yajña ?

H. Kashyap: Quotes a vaiśnava source to basically say that what benefits accrued from yajña in the earlier yugas, accrue from taking the name of keśava in kaliyuga. Rājasūya, Aśvamedha, Vājapeya, Soma yajña, all these were chief forms of worship in dvāpara/treta yuga, but are not needed in kaliyuga; wherein reciting the name of God (specifically keśava) with devotion will give the same benefit.

So we should think how relevant the yajña is in today's times. Moreover, this yajña is meant for kṣatriyas only, specifically after a big battle, as a means for penance. To add to that, this is meant for cakravarti king, not an ordinary kṣatriya. (Mocks), thankfully, they haven't embarked on aśvamedha yajña which is meant to be performed before the conquest. Basically, I want to emphasize that these yajña's are meant to be performed in specific contexts and by specific persons. I say this with due respects to the eminent personages who have organized this.

Part 2:

Q: What do you say could be the possible objective of this yajña ?

Melukote Srinivas (Panelist3): Definitely, I'll support the view of the panelist here. We can see that according Śastras, Granthas as well as History, they are unanimous about who can perform this yajña. Aside from Yuddhiṣṭira, there is no historical record of any one else having performed this yajña. He had send Bhīma, then his brothers to various parts of the country, then having first won his expanded territories, only later did he perform this rājasūya yajña. The rite is meant by the cakravarti king as a tribute after having won suzerainty over his territories and become subordinated those people. Moreover the king is supposed to invite an eminent mahātma of the era to ordain the brahmasthāna of the yajña, eg. Kṛṣṇa was invited by Yuddhiṣṭira.

Śiśupāla's had the temerity to question why a coward like Kṛṣṇa was being seated at the yajña (referring to one of his 100 offences). Given that tradition says the supreme Lord himself sat at the brahmasthana, I can say that, no one deserves to be given that honour in today's times. No one deserves to perform, nor to sit at this type of yajña.

This is meant to signify the honour of the king's state or him having re-acquired lost parts of his kingdom. Since then, Pulikeśi, Samudragupta and in Karnataka, Viṣṇuvardhana may have performed yajña's but not the rājasūya yajña. Neither has anyone performed Aśvamedha yajña. There is provision for different kinds of homas for other purposes. They come in categories like śrauta, smārtha, gṛhya, tāntrika. In contrast to rājasūya which is meant for a kṣatriya, specifically a king, and no one else.

Q: But so many people are participating in this yajña. Who should be educating them about all that you say ?

Panelist2 (H. Kaśyap): We may believe that man has freedom, but in reality the supreme Lord governs our good acts, bad acts, even breathing. Whatever we do, we cannot avoid jyotishya (astrology). Since last 4-5 days, this is a wierd time astrologically - after Rāhu entered the house of Vṛṣcika there is a triangular or quadrangular doṣa (bad omen) as well as bala (good omen). <<<Some astrological data follows>>>. So planets signifying X varna are sitting in the house meant for Y's varna. This implies that King will get religious thoughts, Brahmana gets political thoughts. This yajña is a direct consequence of the astrologically contradicting situation. Not just this rite, but vājapeya, and other rites being performed during this time. All these rites are not even needed in our era, but they are anyway being performed and the reason is the planetary positions.

Panelist1 (H. Bhat): Even before Yuddhiṣṭira, there is mention of Daśaratha having performed rājasūya. He was told that his previous life's karma was preventing him having progeny; and to wash away his sins, he performed this yajña. So we learn that Kings performed this as a penance for their sins and in order to become judicious. "rājasūya" mens rāja sūyate niṣpādyat iti rājasūya. Based on this, one cannot say it is irrelevant, but there isn't any reward for doing the rājasūya in today's era, because neither the performers, nor the yajña materiel (dravya) is authentic today. Besides, performance of this yajña is not really forbidden; one can however question it's relevance.

Panelist2: Quotes Purandaradāsa: if the money is not pure, then it's donation is useless. This can mean that if not properly done, a rite may even bring misfortune, not just good results.

Panelist1: In Gīta, Kṛṣṇa has described yajña's direct results. Agnau prastāhuti samyak adityam pratiṣṭhate - The oblation poured into Fire, goes directly to Sun above. Sūrya jāyate vṛṣṭiḥ; vṛṣṭe randam tataḥ prajāḥ. That Sun gives rain, rain gives crops; crops give prosperity to people. That's the main purpose of yajña.

Part 3:

Q: Do those who perform this yajña get success ?

Panelist2: The rājasūya is performed to obtain the kingdom. It needs purity in materiel, deeds and thoughts. All three are needed to get the desired results. In this era, who has these purities ? In the earlier vājapeya and this rājasūya, they are merely performing the priestly duties, no one has considered the purity and the source of the offerings being made in this yajña.

Q: What materiel is needed and what is the procedure for this yajña ?

Panelist3: Rājasūya runs for seven days. One day for aveṣṭi, another for abhiśecanika etc. rites are performed. Combined, they are called rājasūya. In today's context who can take place of kṣatriya expecting victory ?

Another thing to note is that this specific method is called Madhwa rājasūya - named after the seer belonging to Karnataka. In his opinion, yajña's purpose is what ? Vedic tradition has specific rites for those desirous of sons (putrakāma putreṣṭa yajayata), and then specific rites for rain. Apart from these specific rites, there are some general purpose yajña like viśvajīta whose purpose is left unspecified. So Madhvācārya's opinion is that if one doesn't have a specific purpose, one can perform a general purpose yajña that'll propiate all Gods and the give elements (pancabhūta). According to ancients, if these are pleased by the worshipper, he is rewarded with prosperity, rains, crops etc.

So śruti doesn't bind specific purposes for these yajñas. Therefore rājasūya too, besides being meant for achieving the kingdom, can also be used to please Gods, esp. Indra who is the king of Gods. If his blessings bestow on us, prosperity etc. will come on us. So says Madhvācārya.

Q: So many priests involved in this yajña, 13 altars being used. How do we and the attending public know that correct procedure is being employed here ?

Panelist2: First I'd like to state something more important. Mahābhārata mentions the sins of kaliyuga - brāhmaṇa will do forbidden acts, the rice seller will become brāhmaṇa ie. brāhmaṇattva will simply vanish; all women will turn into prostitutes. So it is said. The point is that purity of deeds cannot be expected in this era.

So Mahābhārata's sabhā parva mentions the rājasūya in substantial detail. In the veda samhita too it is mentioned who can perform this yajña, under what circumstances. Taittareya brāhmaṇa tells us who is supposed to perform this, what are the expected results; the full detail is provided.

This requires four genuine brāhmaṇa's - adhvaryu, hotṛ, udgātṛ. Those who have studied Rg/Sama/Yajur veda. Such eminent people deserve to be given the brahmasthāna. Who deserves it in this age. Someone who has mastery over vedas, vedāṅga and all śāstras. Such an accomplished person's presence is like that of Brahma. You really need to find a great soul (mahātma) for this. Finding such a person today is really a hard task.

The Mahābhārata specifies how such a person should be, what are his responsibilities etc. But in this kaliyuga, I can't find a person who fits the description that I know of, or what the śāstras specify or even as described in Mahābhārata. People will nevertheless do anything to gain stature. Eg. it's forbidden to make a temple for Brahma, yet they do it. It's forbidden to make a temple for gāndhāri, but it has been done under the auspices of Pejāvara Mutt Swamyji. Things have come to a pass that people will do what they wish just to gain fame. These are all circumstances of kaliyuga.

Panelist3: Another thing to note is that it's not forbidden to perform yajña in kaliyuga just because purity of materiel cannot be guaranteed. To give an example from history - King Bali was doing yajña, and Vāmana appeared there; so the yajña was left half done. But after Vāmana subdued Bali, he asks śukrācārya to continue the yajña. śukrācārya says that in yajña or in any deed, if there's a mistake, or a mistake of omission or commision in the mantras or materiel, a shortcoming in human abilities, if any of these happen, according to śāstra, one should recite acutāya namaḥ, anantāya namaḥ, govindāya namaḥ.

Once this is recited, the Lord is invited and whatever shortcoming was there, it will be made good. So, just because kaliyuga doesn't have deserving people, and no purity of materiel, this is not an excuse to avoid yajña altogether. As śāstra has given us a solution in form of the above mantra which can be used to rectify shortcomings.

We shouldn't assume this yajña is being performed merely for fame. The organizers may have real goodwill as motivation for this.

Panelist2: If public good is desired, there are many other rites prescribed. Let me clearly say, if you are expecting some good to come out of this rājasūya, there is definitely going to be none. I can even explain why there won't be any.

Part 4:

Q: Mr. H Bhat, you informed us that in tretā yuga, Jamhārāja had performed rājasūya with the objective of gaining his title. Did he actually realize his aims ?

Panelist3: In Kuru lineage, before king Kuru, there was a king named saṁvaraṇa. That king got defeated when attacked by Pāñchāla kingdom, and abandoned his kingdom. He is said to have gone to the Himalaya and made a cave besides the Sindhu river his residence along with some followers. Under ṛṣi Vaśiṣṭha's leadership, he performed the rājasūya yajña, and as a result defeated the Pāñchāla king in battle and reinstituted the Kuru kingdom.

The Pānḍavas too belong to Kuru lineage. So without the Kuru kingdom having been established by the rājasūya yajña, nothing would have followed. Another derivation of rājasuya is "Rāja sūyate (ie. sthāpyate) iti rājasūyaḥ' meaning that at the end of the yajña, the king should be coronated. The sacred urn used in the yajña is used by the ṛtvij to coronate the king along with mantra recitals. And if done with proper procedure, that is said to give legitimate power to the king. And I have presented an apt example in the form of king Saṁvaraṇa to you.

Q: In today's context who is it that has lost their title and might benefit from this yajña by regaining the title (hints at the ex-CM of Karnataka I think) ?

H Kashyap (Panelist1): In today's society I don't expect anybody to selflessly perform this yajña for public good. No, not even small rites. Let's not just use politically correct language to justify this. Let's face the reality: everyone is materialistic. But by grace of Lord, even acts done in self interest can bear fruit. But even the Lord won't believe that such grandiose functions, with eminent personalities in attendance are being organized just for public good.

Q: What do you opine Mr. Melukote Srinivas ?

Panelist2: I'd like to say that all attendants are very learned seniors. But I can honestly say that my this function is way over my abilities. I won't comment that this performance is wrong, but the organizers claim it is for public good. I don't think even the ancients claimed the yajña to have been for general public good, so we too cannot make such claims today.

Eg. On India/Pak border, the same yajña is being performed on 12th of this month. The organizers claim that the objective is to destroy Pakistan. So already we see a selfish wish here, to destroy the other and survive oneself. So there's no way public good is an objective.

There were other yajña like sarpa-yajña, śena-yajña with specific purposes, eg. to kill plants in the vedi symbolically, so that the opposite king too dies. So śāstra prescribes a lot of specific-purpose yajñas. Then there is the addiṣṭoma yajña too meant to let one enter heaven (svarga). I suggest let's perform that yajña, so we all enter heaven.

Why perform such unrequired yajña (like rājasūya) in this age ? In India and even the world, there is a tendency to showoff and appear unique. Let's not go about making a show here. Let's follow the advise of śāstra and see first what is relevant in today's age.

Panelist1: In today's situation, one checks the astrological parameters before performing even minor rites. But the organizers here have not paid heed to astrological data and timing for such an important function. As the panelist before me said, these people want to just stand out from the crowd.

Panelist3: I'd like to make a couple of points. If I perform a rite at home in my personal capacity, that may have a self-interest, but here, the whole society is participating. Jains, kṣatriyas, all have teamed up to contribute with money and labour. Accusing them of selfishness is narrowminded thinking.

Another question raised by the other panelist is why this yajña, and not other specific rites ? I've checked the daily programme here - one day arkasamita yajña, one day pāvamāna homa, one day aṣṭa mahāmantra homa. The latter contains the Kṛṣṇa mantra about whom it is said that in kaliyuga, amongst all other Gods, Kṛṣṇa is easiest to please and blesses the quickest. Karṣyati iti Kṛṣṇa (Kṛṣṇa will do). He is the one who delivers from sins and hardships. Kṛṣṇa homa is going on, Rāma homa is going on, Rgveda saṁhita is being recited.

How can one say this is unprecedented ? These rites are being performed under the umbrella of rājasūya. We are not in contact with the organizers, so we don't have the right to speculate if they are doing it in self-interest or otherwise.

Q: To what extent are the organizers mindful of the procedure and to what extent will the yajña bear fruit ?

Panelist2: There are other rites: Kumbhala yajña, Bagalamukhi yajña, Pratyukta mantra, Sudarśana mantra, caṅḍi homa. But in rājasūya yajña, we are supposed to use only mantras from vedas, and only those which are relevant to the king who is gaining his title. So says Taittiriya Brāhmaṇa's 5th section.

Panelist3: Another point, Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad's first part is called AśvaBrāhmaṇa. Śankarācārya commented on that part thus - rājasūya yajña, aśvamedha yajña, these should be performed by a person at least once in the lifetime to atone for his sins. But it's not practical - it's too expensive. So it's said that even if you learn how to perform it, you will gain fruits of the yajña. Given that tradition gives this yajña so much importance, let's not be judgemental sitting so far away.

Part 5:
Q: Melukote Srinivas, do you envisage that whoever has lost the title, if they attend the yajña, would they be able to regain it ? (again hint towards ex-CM of Karnataka)

Panelist2: (Laughs) According to learned Gurus if "he" participates in the yajña with the aim of overthrowing the current king, he may obtain his wish. What I have learned is various methodologies like śrauta, smārtha, gṛhya, tāntrika, mantra śāstra. In śrauta, only the vedic tradition (śruti) is supposed to be followed. But in smārtha, tradition of smṛti is mostly followed (manu etc.) and is used in rites like upanayana. In gṛhya, rites are menat to solve personal issues like gaṇapati homa, caṇḍi homa, sudarśana homa. If someone's planets are under grief, these rites solve those issues. In tāntrika tradition, rites like śena yajña where plants are killed as a symbolic sacrifice to kill a rival and take his title. Then there is sarpa yajña. These are meant to satisfy a specific wish of the performer. One cannot recite these mantras under the umbrella of rājasūya yajña.

Q: So is it true that rājasūya should not be performed with a self-interest, to overthrow someone and gain their title ?

Panelist1: Not just this one, any yajña or rite can be performed with a self-interest. But one should keep in mind that one's heart is in synch with the core value of that rite. Purandaradāsa has said if the heart is not pure, what's the use of reciting mantras, if the body is not pure, what's the use of taking tīrtha (blessed water). Given the decay in our personal values today, are we giving the proper protocol for this rite ? Can't we give a better example to the public ?

Again I'd like to say, I'm not forbidding the performance of this yajña. But aks yourself - is it needed ? What madness is this ? Someone is using yajña to destroy Pakistan on the border ?

Q: Yajñas need careful selection of time and place. This yajña is being performed in Durga temple. What's the significance of that ?

Panelist 3: In Hindu tradition, for obtaining fruits of the rite, the time and place is as important as is the yajamāna. Deśakalo saṃkīrtya - so is said for every rite. For Durga, it is said "Durga Durgārti nāśini". Durga is the destroyer of big obstacles. Since the yajña is performed in her temple, such obstacles will be removed. And, this is the month of māgha. There is a religious fair at this time at saṁgama (confluence of Ganga+Yamuna). There is a lot of importance to māgha-snāna (holy bath) performed in this month. Among candramāna months, month of māgha is very important.

That's why the time and place is very auspicious for all wise men to team up and do this rite for public good. If such is our attitude, definitely, the Gods will be pleased, inspite of this being Kaliyuga. It's said that what's done in good faith in Kaliyuga, gives twice the fruit of Tretayuga. Like finding water in drought. Let's wish the rite bears fruit.

Thanks to all panelists.

[Prem]

I was watching documentry about Mayan calender. It stated 3140 BC , almost same time when Mahabharat ended and Kalyug started . They concluded that Mayan calender is about drastic climate change. Time being cyclical as per Mayans, it will repeat the same cycle/yuga.

[RamaY]

^ the verbatim translation of Vyasa Bharata I read (by Sri Kappagantula Lakshmana Sastry) talks greatly about Pandu's valor and his married life with Kunti and Madri.

[abhishek_sharma]

>> No parent would name a child suyodhana(one who can be easily fought).

Okay..so what does Suyodhana mean? Some websites claim that it means "Great warrior". I don't have a hindi dictionary around me.

[Atri]

दुः योधन - one who is difficult to fight with.. OR one who fights "badly"..

its double negative. implied to mean good.. Ass is bad.. .but badass is good..

[putnanja]

In Kannada, Sri SL Bhyrappa has written a novel called "Parva", which is very humane and believeable just like Narendra Kohli's. However, it is devoid of any miracles, and tries to explain everything without miracles. He did do years of research before coming up with his work. He was awarded Kalidas Samman recently.

According to his book, Pandu was sexually active a lot, and eventually lost his virility. Hewent to the mountainous region with this wives, where the people living there were called devas. Indra was the ceremonial name given to the kings of this kingdom. According to those time, Niyoga was an accepted form of getting children if the husband was unable to father them with his wife. In fact, Pandu & Dhritarashtra were born through Niyoga from Vyasa.

[ramana]

X-post...

ukumar ji,
(1) the eventual migration from Sindhu to Ganga might have taken place - but latest archeological trends indicate that the more likely origin - pre-early urbanization moved from the eastern sector to the Sindhu-Saraswati western sector. Underwater archeology provides tantalizing possibilities that the south - might not be that barren either in terms of urbanization. These were probably coastal ones and hence are swallowed up in the post glacial melt.

During the last intense phase around LGM (21 kya to 26/27 kya) the Himalayan glaciers seems to have blocked up the Panchanad drainage basin [as indicated from indirect evidence of less freshwater discharge into eastern Arabian sea]. Ganga however drains a much longer tract of the Himalayas and so even if precipitation decreased it probably still had greater net outflow near its delta discharge compared to the western sector. Similarly the local SW-NE monsoon system, even if weaker would still hydrate the southern coastal perimeter - at least on the eastern side [TN coast] based on moisture from Bay of Bengal.

A combination of maritime trade all around the southern peninsula, coastal sea-based productivity, and eastern Ganga delta based early agriculture, could have given rise to a proto semi-urban, port based civilization [proto compared to what is typically taken in history] even before the end of the ice age some 12 kya.

The civilizational centre of gravity would therefore more likely start off from the east and south of the subcontinent, and spread by a combination of pressure of rising sea-levels, and rehydration of the Panchanad [we know pretty accurately now the pattern of this shift] to move from south and east to north and west. This would start happening from about 11-10 kya and accelerate in the 8-7 kya phase [in step with the known rapid periods of sea-level rise and strengthening monsoon].

(2) Arya seems to have been used more in the sense of culture and civilization. Location is not that well defined - and the later reconstructions of location in the Punjab could simply be reflecting a period of recording by the culture which by that time had colonized Punjab. It is almost impossible to decide the direction of this expansion - from the north or from the south/centre based on the rigveda alone. The earliest layers of [forget linguistics - one good thumbrule is to look at the cursory/brief/lack of details portions of the narrative] rigveda seems to indicate a period of flux where lots of people are moving around all over the subcontinent - so it could be forming when different types of living in different corners of the subcontinent are coming into each other. The most likely climatic and vegetational situation for this is the post glacial phase with an initial spurt in hydration of the northern tracts, displacement of coastal populations, then a 1000 year drying up and again accelerated hydration around 10 kya.

Marine archeology points to possible urbanization already by 8kya. So the early rigvedic refs to settlements and irrigation systems fits in very well with this phase of intra-Indian competition for resources and expansion.

Need not have anything to do with imported TFTA's. Genetically Afghans/Pashtuns seem to be here for a long long time, with a very strong eastern and Indian genetic component - and they still have TFTA ness. Just imagine proto Afghans comparing themselves with the Mundas and preening themselves as dhavals. We do not need TFTA's imported all the way from the steppes to explain the fairness-darkness conundrum.

RamaY., Note Bji's hypothesis of the spread of Indic civilization from East and South to the North due to climate changes and the time frame( 11k-8kya). It fits in beautifully with the specualtion about the Purana sites in South India by the website ancient Indians!

[RoyG]

I'm currently reading Sun Tzu's Art of War. Will start reading Kautilyas Arthsashtra afterwards. I don't hear much about the latter. Has anyone read both? Which was a more stimulating read?

[RamaY]

^^

Noted Ramanaji.

The more I think, the more I am convinced about the Ikshwaka origins in south.

It also fits nicEly into the longer yuga structure.

[brihaspati]

I'm currently reading Sun Tzu's Art of War. Will start reading Kautilyas Arthsashtra afterwards. I don't hear much about the latter. Has anyone read both? Which was a more stimulating read?

KA. There's no comparison. The latter is a treatise on statecraft - laws, strategy, organization, government, policymaking, and political science overall. ST is specifically adapted to tactical deception. By the way which translation are you using? Some of the Chinese sourced later-English/US trans are based on the version popularized by Mao's writings. But that is coloured with Mao's version of another Chinese legend about bandits of chingkangshan [where Mao and Tzu Teh escaped to form their first base after the failure of the 27-28 urban campaigns].

[RamaY]

^+1008.

KA is a treatise on Artha purushartha which is much comprehensive than statecraft.

[RoyG]

Art of war is turning out to be an excellent read. I'm curious as to how Arthashastra stacks up against it in the area of military strategy, intelligence, and covert tactics.

[brihaspati]

KA covers the same principles of war as AOW - but with a difference : AOW is concerned merely with winning the war, while KA is also concerned with the consequences and the duties and objectives of politics.

[RoyG]

Thanks. Found the translated version on wiki. Bji, intelligence collection and asymmetrical/concealed warfare as prescribed by Chanakya will be critical if we are to dismantle anti-dharmic foreign and domestic networks. Fascinating how he makes use of spies (domestic/foreign), and sleeper cells.

*Bji, eventually won't we have to cleanse our region of American influence as well? I'm reminded of the black snake and golden chain story.

[abhishek_sharma]

Book Review of Abhyudaya: Ram Katha written by Narendra Kohli

I have the first volume of the book. Can't get the second volume.

[Atri]

what is origin of the verse satyam shivam sundaram?

i read it smewhere that its from yajurveda. But I cannot locate the verse since I dont know where to search for

if u guys know about this verse, please let me know the verse number asap...

[abhischekcc]

KA covers the same principles of war as AOW - but with a difference : AOW is concerned merely with winning the war, while KA is also concerned with the consequences and the duties and objectives of politics.

KA is far superior to other books with which it is usually compared - AOW, The Prince, etc. The others are too finely focused on specific skill sets, war and intelligence, respectively, in the case of the above two.

KA shows the comprehensiveness of thought that is the defining characteristic of Hindu philosophy.

[Atri]

Comparing Arthashastra with Sun tzu OR "the prince" OR clauswitz is one of our tiny little deracinations.. we forget who vishnugupta really was..

Vishnugupta was a brahmin, a professor of political science in a reputed Indian university. Arthashastra is basically compilation of the ideas or earlier seers and thinkers. While british have glorified him (along with Manu - honestly our ancestors did give much higher respect to other aacharyas (narada vidura bhishma and others) than Vishnugupta Chanakya. Same is case with Manu. The weightage of aapastambha and yajnyavalkya was much much higher than manu.

be that as it may, the fundamental tenet of KA is - धर्मस्य मुलं अर्थ, अर्थस्य मुलं राज्य....(dharma holds artha, artha supports state).. the fundamental tenet here is "protection of dharma".. Even for KA (which is one of the most unscrupulous schools of raajneeti in India), the fundamental aim of any human endeavour is protection of dharma.

dharma here is referred to by the triad of quartet system of india (4 varnas-4 ashrama-4 purushartha based varnashrama dharma). what KA basically says is that any means which ensures healthy and harmonious existence of this chaturvidha dharma is game. Many other acharyas prescribe dharmik means to ensure maintenance of dharma.

for Machiavelli, state is utmost important. any means to preserve the state and keep it going is game.

while the KA (where it is said राजस्य मुलं इंद्रियजय Controlling his "indriyas" supports king- he says this somewhere down the line, machiavelli OR even AOW does not deal with such blasphemous thoughts) emphasizes on dharma (something that is eternal) AOW and Machiavelli emphasizes on raajya (something which is fleeting)...

The state (rajya) is just a "saadhan (means)" for attaining dharma by boosting vidya, vaanijya, krishi {knowledge, commerce and agriculture} in KA. The state is the saadhya (end) in itself for Machiavelli.

[Prem]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gadadhara ... 37889.html
Is God a Person? A Gaudiya Vaishnav Perspective

For many, the immediate response would be a resounding "no!" Within the theistic traditions of India and within the theistic traditions of the world, there are varying opinions on the subject. For some, it's not too difficult to understand the energy and presence of God in nature and even in one's self. There are numerous verses in the seventh and ninth chapters of the Bhagavad Gita supporting this point.I am the taste in water, the light of the sun and moon... I am the original fragrance of the earth, and I am the heat in fire. I am the life of all that lives... Everything rests on Me as pearls are strung on a thread. Of the senses, I am the mind and in the living beings, I am consciousness.The school of thought accepted by the majority of practitioners within Hinduism is that God or the Supreme is an all-pervading and all-powerful energy without form or qualities. I suppose this is a natural conclusion for many to arrive at. There is no doubt it is extremely difficult for one to conclude that the essence of everything as described in the above verses, who is creator of all that we see and experience in the world and universe is an embodied being. A person pursuing liberation with this notion of God, is supposed to, upon death, leave this material body behind and become one with the Supreme by merging into the all-pervading impersonal energy.
owever, according to the Bhagavad Gita, the soul is eternal, active by nature, and can never be destroyed. The soul can merge into the Supreme, but can't remain in that inactive state perpetually. The soul needs activity and interaction with others and it's especially hankering for a relationship with God.In human experience, we've never come across a perfect being. Rather, we see people having certain fallibilities such as imperfect senses, the propensity to cheat and exploit others, and the tendency to commit mistakes. We then automatically project those same assumptions on to God and therefore come to the conclusion that God can't have a form or personality. When I had first started studying Gaudiya Vaisnavism, the monotheistic strand of Hinduism, I came across a different school of thought, which was initially very confusing and difficult to understand. It proposed that God, in addition to possessing impersonal features, had a personality with names, forms, qualities and activities. After grappling with this idea for a few years, I finally started to become comfortable with it and gradually even began to appreciate it.

The Brahma Samhita, a prominent scripture within the Gaudiya Vaisnava theology, explains the nature of God's form and qualities.
I worship Govinda (Krishna), the primeval Lord, whose transcendental form is full of bliss and truth, and is thus full of the most dazzling splendor. Each of the limbs of that transcendental figure possesses in Himself, the full-fledged functions of all the organs, and eternally sees, maintains and manifests the infinite universes, both spiritual and mundane... He is without a beginning, whose form is endless...yet He is a person possessing the beauty of blooming youth.
In the fourth chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna explains that He reciprocates with individuals according to the way they approach Him. The goal of life described by many spiritual traditions is to develop a loving relationship with God. Love has to be reciprocal which means, love can only exist between two or more individual sentient beings. We can't love something inanimate simply because an object can't love us back. We like to make the claim "I love my car or I love my hair..." but that's not love because your car or hair doesn't love you and it really can't love you in reality.Even though it may sound attractive or may be easier to understand that God is formless energy, as far as I'm concerned, it's not possible to exchange love with formless energy. We might offer the argument that imposing a personality upon the supreme is limiting Him, but who are we to say He can't have a form.
It's natural for us to try and use our mind and intellect to comprehend God's form and energy, but very quickly we come to realize that we just don't have that capacity, just as we don't have the capacity to understand the universe and how the whole thing works. Just as we can't fully understand another person without them letting us into their lives, we also can't understand the personality of God by force or the power of our intellect. Krishna exexplains in the Gita that He reveals Himself to those who desire to have a loving relationship with Him and ultimately, we're all looking for loving relationships with each other and with God.

[Pranav]

Thanks. Found the translated version on wiki. Bji, intelligence collection and asymmetrical/concealed warfare as prescribed by Chanakya will be critical if we are to dismantle anti-dharmic foreign and domestic networks. Fascinating how he makes use of spies (domestic/foreign), and sleeper cells.

*Bji, eventually won't we have to cleanse our region of American influence as well? I'm reminded of the black snake and golden chain story.

RoyG, the Art of War and the Arthashastra are timeless classics, but are outdated. In today's age the levers of control are media, monetary policy, electronic voting etc.

You might want to take a look at the alleged forgery "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Irrespective of its provenance it does have some profound ideas. George Orwell's "1984" is also a classic.

[svinayak]

Gaurav Sharma said, on May 4, 2012 at 2:54 pm
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Hindu tantrik texts have the mantra of various astra and hence they are called “astra-mantra” or “astra-vidya”. Primary weapons amongst them are Brahmastra , Narayanastra and Pashupatastra. In todays world the correct deployment of these mantras is not known to even the highest matha of tantriks. After discussing with a great ascetic who is an adept in tantrashastra and knows to successfully deploy Agneyastra , I found out and saw the great capacity of the Agneyastra mantra. After much of my insistence he showed me teh capability of Agneyastra. I will narrate my experience as I witnessed the Agneyastra deployment. Here it goes :

It was the month of Feb in 2003 and in the vast land alongside the Ganga river in Kachla( near Badaun in UP) , I was taken some half a kilometer inside the dense thickets of trees and groves. He carefully chose a babool tree and then made a square around it. I was witnessing somethning really serious here. It took about 2 days for him to finish his rituals in a small temple near the ghat and and told me that the tree will be burnt totally in 7 days and the soil inside the square will become barren and then he moved in the direction of the tree inside teh groves along with me. There he recited some mantra and strew some ashes on teh tree and inside teh square. I returned to the site of teh tree after about 15 days and found that the tree was blighted and had shed all teh leaves and was looking extremly dry. The soil around teh square had become dry and there was not even the shred of a green grass blade in that area but just 6-7 feet distance from teh tree was all green and flourishing. It was something which made me shiver to see but I realized teh powers that was encoded in the mantras of Hindu tantrashastra.

I happened to meet that scholar tantrik only once after that and tried to know more about it . He only told me that this was a very very limited demonstration of the Agneyastra mantra and it can be extended to destroy even a nation but one must hold himself back from doing such rituals and abhichara. He said that if agneyastra( even in limited form) is deployed on a nation , samudaaya( community) or a village then that nation , community or the village will sink into poverty for a very long period and will be remain tormented for centuries. He also told me that though he knows the rituals of Pashupatastram but this is used only for controlling the natural calamity as per his kula and if its used for destructive purpose then its simple and minor deployment will cripple the strongest of nations( which have the benign grace of even Mahakali and Durga), its citizens, armies and will repeatedly destroy that nation or race for more than 2000 years.

When I enquired why we cant deploy this astra against hostile nations to Bharat so he said that I should take the deeksha follow the kula path and the answer will reflect upon me.

It sounds all unbelievable but its metaphysics and only the person who has the revelation and experience knows it.

Reply

http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2010/05/15 ... cription-3

[abhischekcc]

Pashupatastra is the final weapon available to jiva. The only weapon more powerful than this is the Pralayastra, which Shivji has kept for himself.

[ramana]

Atri, Do me a favor. Read up on Sanjaya Rayabharam episode in Mahabharat and make a comment on it in your blog. I believe its a classic on diplomacy between those having adverse possession (Kauravas/TSP) and those trying to regain it (Pandavas/India). When Sanjaya talkas about the capabilities of Bhisma et al, to frightent the panadavas, Yuddhistir says those are useful in war only and since diplomacy is about avoiding war, keep the refs to those worthies aside. In oter words making threats is not useful in diplomacy.

[RamaY]

From Acharyaji's link -

Matches with the summary I wrote from Sri Kappagantula Lakshmanasastry gari MB.

[RamaY]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gadadhara ... 37889.html
Is God a Person? A Gaudiya Vaishnav Perspective

God is everywhere, both in vyakta (personified) and avyakta. That means we all are part of that god consciousness. But it doesn't mean I am god unless i unite my consciousness with god consciousness and cease to exist as individual consciousness (dont confuse with body) which is the Ego.

[devesh]

Pashupatastra is the final weapon available to jiva. The only weapon more powerful than this is the Pralayastra, which Shivji has kept for himself.

i think Brahmastra is is the ultimate mother of all weapons. the destruction it can wreck is described as greater than even the Pashupata. Narayanastra is also mentioned but rarely is that weapon given to anybody with the full potential. i read somewhere that to truly unleash that weapon's power, one had to do upasana of Sudarshana (the discuss of Vishnu) and only then would they get the qualities required to hold the full power of Narayanastra. but as far as i know, none of the puranas or itihasas show anybody who has achieved that feat.

[RamaY]

^ AFAIK The true power of the Astra is the reflection of the Tapobala and Dharma of the person who is releasing it.

[Atri]

Paashupata was used by arjuna to kill jayasratha.

Bramhastra's description matches that of a nuke.

Narayanastra's description matches that of a chemical weapon. Never heard of pralayaastra though.

Sudarshan chakra is more about shock and awe than actual deployment in battle. Paundraka vasudeva had one too. Paundraka and krishna were fighting for the title of "Vaasudeva". Paundraka had the chakra which could not return, but krishna's chakra could. Krishna defeated this "Eastern" rival and emerged as the one true Vaasudeva. It seems he jealously guarded this claim. There is no reason for him to go all the way to eastern bengal from saurashtra just because some bengali king was calling himself vaasudeva. This story signifies a rift between east and west and how the monotheistic sect of vaasudeva emerged in India.

This was second eastern expedition of krishna. Perhaps this happened after he engineered the death of jarasandha through bhima. He would never had dared to venture to assam (Narakasura campaign) and bengal (Paundraka vaasudeva) with jarasandha in magadh. Of course another option js that the story is fake and is inserted later.

[Prem]

Sudarshan chakra =Resusable Missile or Dronecharya like weapon platform.

[ramana]

Atri, There are refs to Krishna being absent during the dice game while combating this Paundraka Vasudeva. What exactly does Vyasa say in MB and in Bhagavatam?

Also was Jayadratha deserving of the use of the Pasupata astra? he bieng a lesser warrior.

[SaiK]

what was the first use of brahmastra? who created it first?

Bramhastra's description matches that of a nuke.

q: the countermeasure for brahmastra was the brahmadanda /wiki verified.

so, how does that match in terms of there is no counter measure for nukes, unless it is destroyed in mid-course outside earth, for holistic counter-measure.

?

[Atri]

Atri, There are refs to Krishna being absent during the dice game while combating this Paundraka Vasudeva. What exactly does Vyasa say in MB and in Bhagavatam?

Also was Jayadratha deserving of the use of the Pasupata astra? he bieng a lesser warrior.

krishna was fighting in western India with Shaalva when dice game was happening..

Dunno whether Jayadrath deserved pashupataastra or not.. perhaps since his head cannot fall on ground but in the lap of his father meditating somewhere far away, it required that arjuna used a long range mijjile.. furthermore since arjuna was not mounted on chariot when he had to fire this projectile it has to be something which was of long range and which could be fired without requiring any special facility.. I mean sri rama killed ravana by normal agni-astra because he was mounted on a good chariot (that of Indra).. same goes with karna and arjuna..

BTW why do we think of paashupata as mother of all bombs.. similar to Indra's shakti given to karna it can be a tactical weapon which is hi-tech.. the real big bomb is brahma-shiras astra (the ones which ashwatthama and arjuna launched and which sages forced to abort.

[abhischekcc]

I'm currently reading Sun Tzu's Art of War. Will start reading Kautilyas Arthsashtra afterwards. I don't hear much about the latter. Has anyone read both? Which was a more stimulating read?

I have read Earth shaster completely (Engrish translashun onree) and AOW partially.

Arthashastra is more comprehensive, it is really about Rajdharma under kutniti circumstances; whereas AOW is more military based, and prescriptive.

I related more to Arthashastra.

My suggestion is to get an offline book, much more enjoyable that way.

[Atri]

Atri, Do me a favor. Read up on Sanjaya Rayabharam episode in Mahabharat and make a comment on it in your blog. I believe its a classic on diplomacy between those having adverse possession (Kauravas/TSP) and those trying to regain it (Pandavas/India). When Sanjaya talkas about the capabilities of Bhisma et al, to frightent the panadavas, Yuddhistir says those are useful in war only and since diplomacy is about avoiding war, keep the refs to those worthies aside. In oter words making threats is not useful in diplomacy.

Sure Ramana ji.. But where can I find this episode online? I do not have the hard copy of the MBH right now. I have it at home in desh. If you know a good translation (preferably hindi, if not, English by an Indic author) please give me the link.

[RamaY]

^ Atriji, I posted it here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1100288

[Atri]

Mérci Beaucoup !!!!! If you have edited it while putting it on, it cannot get more Indic. I can use the template as it is..

[RamaY]

You are getting lazy atri mahasaya I will do that if you want...

We had "Sanjaya Rayabaram" as a lesson in 10th grade. This one lesson teaches a 15 year old to understand the distinction between

Dharma that appears as Dharma = Dharmaraja's response to Sanjaya
Dharma that appears as aDharma = Dharmaraja's behavior during dice game
aDharma that appears as Dharma = Sanjaya's rayabara
aDharma that appears as aDharma = Duryodhana's behavior during dice game

no wonder they say "Guru sakshat param brahma". A right teacher can make a student Dharmic with just one lesson...