Indian Naval Discussion

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 28 May 2012 16:52

Sanku wrote:
SNaik wrote: Midshipmen.
Will Vikramaditya actually have midshipmen serving on board? My understanding was that the even the Ensign/2nd Lt/Pilot off rank was phased out in Indian forces. A officer is a Full Lt when he joins active duty at the end of training. And I do not expect trainees to be on Vick.

Maybe midshipman is a Russian concept as of now? What would be the equivalent in IN?

Well, there are midshipmen in Russian Navy. The closest should be ensign and warrant-officer.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 28 May 2012 16:53

Teg in Malta
http://www.shipspotting.com/photos/big/ ... 568191.jpg
http://www.shipspotting.com/photos/big/ ... 568194.jpg
http://www.shipspotting.com/photos/big/ ... 568196.jpg

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 May 2012 16:57

SNaik wrote:
Sanku wrote: Will Vikramaditya actually have midshipmen serving on board? My understanding was that the even the Ensign/2nd Lt/Pilot off rank was phased out in Indian forces. A officer is a Full Lt when he joins active duty at the end of training. And I do not expect trainees to be on Vick.

Maybe midshipman is a Russian concept as of now? What would be the equivalent in IN?
Well, there are midshipmen in Russian Navy. The closest should be ensign and warrant-officer.

If they are JCO quarters, then they are pretty nifty for JCO quarters.

I likes it.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 28 May 2012 17:22

Sanku,
IN does have midshipmen on board.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/jai-hi ... yur/189922

From 14:20 onward, Rocky & Mayur interview two midshipmen on board INS Mysore.

SNaik,
Thanks for the pics, as always.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 28 May 2012 17:58

SNaik wrote:Teg in Malta
http://www.shipspotting.com/photos/big/ ... 568191.jpg
http://www.shipspotting.com/photos/big/ ... 568194.jpg
http://www.shipspotting.com/photos/big/ ... 568196.jpg

cant see the brahmos tubes anywhere. can somebody help?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 May 2012 18:27

Gaur wrote:Sanku,
IN does have midshipmen on board.
.

Thanks Gaur; does any one know how long is the midshipmen training period on a fleet vessel? Also I would be curious to know, if any one can share, what is the typical training pattern, viz, how many months at the academy, how many months on a training vessel and how long on a fleet ship?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 28 May 2012 19:00

adityadange wrote: cant see the brahmos tubes anywhere. can somebody help?

See the yellow tarpaulin/plastic covered thing in front of the RBU? thats the multiple vertical launcher!

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 28 May 2012 20:49

Spot on! the Talwars don't have launch tubes but VLS.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 May 2012 22:36

The hangar:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1179903832 ... 6172237794

Idli maker?

https://picasaweb.google.com/1179903832 ... 2233775970

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 May 2012 06:22

SNaik wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
Please explain stealth and RCS reduction. Also explain the means of RCS reduction.

Answering this will require a lot of research from your side, but it'll be time well spent.

Not that much to search, actually, just a few pages back
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... rship.html

Need a clarification - since I am anadi in such maters.

In http://www.indiandefencereview.com/user ... al_RCS.jpg, "Contribution from Equipment". What constitutes "Equipment"?

TIA.

What ever it is that is a dramatic difference!!!

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 May 2012 08:49

Large 2048X1374 photographs.

May 27, 2012 photo of INS Teg at Malta by Albireo2006:

INS Teg at Malta - May 27

May 28, 2012 photo of INS Teg at Malta by Albireo2006:

INS Teg at Malta - May 28

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 29 May 2012 11:22

NRao wrote: Need a clarification - since I am anadi in such maters.

In http://www.indiandefencereview.com/user ... al_RCS.jpg, "Contribution from Equipment". What constitutes "Equipment"?

TIA.

What ever it is that is a dramatic difference!!!

Equipment - anything radiating electromagnetic waves (speaking of RCS - radar cross section).

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 29 May 2012 13:04

I can spot an important difference between INS Teg and the older Talwar class Frigates. In the place where Teg has a gatling cannon the older Talwar class had the Kashtan system. Guru's can shed more light, but I think in the older ships the Kashtan system had a smaller arc, and by placing the Kashtan system in the forward section of Teg has given it a better arc and hence a better protection for the ship.

Guru's shed some

plz.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 29 May 2012 13:14

^^^^^^
INS Talwar:

INS Teg:

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 May 2012 13:50

INS Teg has no Khastan.
It is armed with 2XAk-630 and Barak VLS

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 29 May 2012 14:11

^^^ Russia installed Barak in Teg

If true then this report is deceiving -> http://www.naval-technology.com/news/ne ... n-27-april

Can you help me spot the Barak VLS for Teg.

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 May 2012 14:46

I have no Link stating so.
But it seems logical for Teg to have Barak1.
IN is moving towards kind of standardizing Ak-630+Barak1 on most of the new Warships.

The VLS most likely will be present before the brigde along with the Brahmos VLS I guess.
The Module covered by the yellow cover in the Flicker photos.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 May 2012 14:53

barak1 get fitted in india. we can just tell yantar the space need, HVAC requirement and electrical power needed.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 29 May 2012 15:50

The Navy makes them Lts after they get their watchkeeping tickets

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 29 May 2012 15:52

INS Vindhyagiri to be decommisioned on May 30,2012 :-(

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 May 2012 16:04

Kapil wrote:The Navy makes them Lts after they get their watchkeeping tickets

How long does that typically take Kapil?

John · Post by **John** » 29 May 2012 16:21

koti wrote:But it seems logical for Teg to have Barak1.

For Barak FCR EL/M-2221 or TMX Tracker need to be installed as FCR currently both aren't present.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 29 May 2012 17:16

Kapil wrote:The Navy makes them Lts after they get their watchkeeping tickets

That would be a Honorary Lts right? Or are they called Lts?

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 May 2012 17:17

@John
If Singha saab is correct then they will be installed in India.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 May 2012 17:38

merlin wrote:
Kapil wrote:The Navy makes them Lts after they get their watchkeeping tickets
That would be a Honorary Lts right? Or are they called Lts?

I am thoroughly confused.

Are midshipmen a way for JCO to be promoted to Officer levels?

Or are they a stepping stone for Officer cadets from NDA etc in their way for full officers?

Both?

Neither?

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 May 2012 20:37

Honorary ranks are only awarded during the last year of service to Master Chiefs that make the cut afaik 27+ years of service and obviously seniority matter.

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 May 2012 21:36

There is no concept of promotion to midshipmen in the IN , there is however an avenue for a sailor to become an officer iirc known as officer on special duty aka SD .

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 29 May 2012 23:00

Ok that clears it up a bit. So a Master Chief getting a Honorary rank is similar to an SM in the IA making it to Honorary Captain.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 30 May 2012 00:42

More Vikky inside, May this time
https://picasaweb.google.com/1179903832 ... aditia_may#

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 May 2012 07:41

^ super pics SNaik - she is coming along really nice. Beautiful ship. Hope the trials go smooth and the IN gets her operating by the year end.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 May 2012 07:59

hopefully natgeo/disc HD will be allowed to make a "mighty ships" episode for indian market soon after she joins IN. tag along for a fleet exercise and roam all over the ship.

in due course hope to see one on the Arihant as well.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 30 May 2012 11:51

Hi,
At least 4 months as serviceon board fleet ships to get watchkeeping certificate.
I think the total tenure is 6 months odd where they get exposure to seamanship,basics at sea,watchkeeping,navigation,ActionInformation Organisation,weapons,sensors and other tech. They get exposures to all cadres of their branch and can plan out on what long course they want to do a few years later.
The aim is to have a pool of reliable watchkeeping Lieutenants.
Once they get their Lt rank then they get posted to smaller ships for their first non-specialist appointments.
Basically, midshipmen get hit by everyone

and they learn a lot in the process.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 May 2012 11:52

Thanks Kapil.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 30 May 2012 15:12

Compiled some information about INS Vikramaditya. No two sources have matching information about dimensions, armament and size of air wing. This is what seems more credible as of now. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

SPECIFICATIONS

Displacement :

38,000 tons standard
45,000-45,500 tons full load

Dimensions :

257.0 meters long waterline
283.1 meters long overall
32.7 meters waterline beam
53.0 meters flight deck width
9.5 meters draught standard
12.0 meters draught mean full load

Propulsion:

Diesel fueled 4 shaft geared steam turbines with 8 boilers, 140,000 hp

Speed:

32 knots (59 km/h)

Range:

22000 kilometers at 18 knots (33 km/h)

Armament:

8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns

Radar:

Phased array and/or planar radar systems

Aircraft carried:

16-24 Mikoyan MiG-29K fighters, 4-16 Ka-28 ASW and Ka-31 AEW helicopters. ALH Dhruv may be used

Aircraft launching :

14.3 degree ski-jump, STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) with 3 arresting gear

Some photos at the link:
http://jjamwal.in/blog/2012/05/ins-vikr ... rrier.html

member_22636 · Post by **member_22636** » 30 May 2012 18:42

jamwal wrote:Compiled some information about INS Vikramaditya. No two sources have matching information about dimensions, armament and size of air wing. This is what seems more credible as of now. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

SPECIFICATIONS

Displacement :

38,000 tons standard
45,000-45,500 tons full load

Dimensions :

257.0 meters long waterline
283.1 meters long overall
32.7 meters waterline beam
53.0 meters flight deck width
9.5 meters draught standard
12.0 meters draught mean full load

Propulsion:

Diesel fueled 4 shaft geared steam turbines with 8 boilers, 140,000 hp

Speed:

32 knots (59 km/h)

Range:

22000 kilometers at 18 knots (33 km/h)

Armament:

8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns

Radar:

Phased array and/or planar radar systems

Aircraft carried:

16-24 Mikoyan MiG-29K fighters, 4-16 Ka-28 ASW and Ka-31 AEW helicopters. ALH Dhruv may be used

Aircraft launching :

14.3 degree ski-jump, STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) with 3 arresting gear

Some photos at the link:
http://jjamwal.in/blog/2012/05/ins-vikr ... rrier.html

Propulsion: 4 x engines rated at 45,000 hp (A total of 180 000 hp).
I think the Ski jump is 12.5 degrees

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 30 May 2012 19:57

jamwal wrote: Armament[/b]:

8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns

...

http://jjamwal.in/blog/2012/05/ins-vikr ... rrier.html

I could not locate the Kashtan anywhere in the pictures ... so not likely there will be any - especially 8.

My guesstimate points to Barak-1 in rear port corner.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 May 2012 21:42

i seem to recall that barak was mentioned in previous equipment lists. would be quite essential IMO

srai · Post by **srai** » 31 May 2012 03:30

Aditya G wrote:
jamwal wrote: Armament[/b]:

8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns

...

http://jjamwal.in/blog/2012/05/ins-vikr ... rrier.html
I could not locate the Kashtan anywhere in the pictures ... so not likely there will be any - especially 8.

My guesstimate points to Barak-1 in rear port corner.

According to this article, Vikramaditya will not get its CIWS until 2017. So, no CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns likely (especially after seeing the new Teg-class not having the Kashtan but instead the AK-630).

INS Vikramaditya: Waiting for Gorshkov…

...
An official Indian CAG report adds that even when inducted, Vikramaditya will have no aerial defenses until 2017 – whereupon it is scheduled to be retrofitted with only a last-ditch CIWS gun system.
...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2012 08:29

my pov is 2xak630 in the superstructure, two in the tail corners and a box of barak1 (32) just behind the superstructure buried into the deck as it was in viraat or located in the right side extention of the deck outboard of the superstructure. a EO sensor is also likely to spot heat signatures of ASMs passively. barak1 might even be mounted on one of the steps of the superstructure to permit 360' fire .
a extensive suite of decoy launchers as well.

this is too valuable a ship to be penny pinching on self defence.

koti · Post by **koti** » 31 May 2012 10:02

Maybe the plan is to use the Viraat's Barak on the Vic.

Even so, I think there is more then just money here... Even small Corvettes get a CIWS....

This could be to speed up the delivery and/or the result of the price negotiations that were done. Anyway, Barak can't be fitted in Russia and Ak-630 can be fitted in India.(Even manufactured). However, Khastan can't. It means the CIWS for Vik will be Ak630, and not Khastan.
I wonder where the original 6 Khastan systems of the Gorshkov will be used by Russia though.