Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote:Lets see. If it does not serve their purposes then it will die away.

Meantime

Reconstructing the origin and spread of horse domestication in the Eurasian steppe

I dont have the full text.
Very interesting. I was totally absorbed for the 37 seconds it took me to read the page.

The interesting thing is that did you know that the people of the central Asian steppes hated the horse? The clearest evidence for this comes from the fact that there is no poetry or literature praising the horse from those areas. In addition the presence of horse bones in graves of humans indicates that hose sex fetishes may have existed before Pakistan. Cruelty to animals was the norm and indicated fertility rites. Power over the horse indicated power over nature.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote: Manishji. PIE is completely hypothetical. NONE of its words exist. There is no existing candidate language with all the words that "should be there" in PIE.
Didn't get any nibble at the conjecture I posted earlier -
Pranav wrote:Given any two words (which may or may not have related meanings), there exists a third word, and two linguistically valid transformation paths, that transform this third word into each of the first two words.
A corollary would be that given any two languages, it is possible to construct a proto language that is a linguistically "valid" ancestor of both of them.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

horse paintings in caves are found in many different places - not just steppes. so the horse probably featured in the diet of early humans for some time. the ability to tame a horse (presumably later than we started eating them) may have had multiple origins, just as the ability to build tools has multiple origins. in the grasslands, human existance (if not survival) is enhanced by the horse, or the ability to harness the horses power, whereas in more agricultural areas, the need to harness horsepower may have been a much later development

conversely in north america, the horse appears to have been hunted to extinction in prehistoric times and then reintroduced by the spanish. the tribes of the great plains adpated to horseborne life very very rapidly (within a couple of 100 years) - around the ecosystem of buffalo hunting. I would therefore be sceptical of inferring that just because two human communities do x, or speak y that they are closely related or derived. There have to be many pointers to indicate derivation
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

The word "Arya" or "Aryan" conjures up many images, and these words have possessed the popular imagination of many people.

Here is an Iranian's effort to define the term "Aryan", which also happens to be part of their folklore.



and then there are those who are still hung up on blonde hair and blue eyes, usually they are Pakis :wink: (and Afghans).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

There is a guy called Robert Lindsay who has a blog on wordpress. He writes quite a bit on this AMT, and really rubbishes any evidence Indians provide on the indigenous origins of the Saraswati-Sindhu Civilization.

If one wishes to understand the rhetoric of the AITers one can visit his wordpress blog. Perhaps some may like to do some pisko-analysis. He wrote a piece "Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas"!

Of course, it helps to have counter blogs dedicated to such topics, where one has the upper-hand.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Virendra »

Yeah I know this Lindsay guy. His takiya kalaam is "You're banned <put your name here>" :D :D
He does it when he gets infuriated with the posters countering him at the comments.
Last edited by Virendra on 30 May 2012 19:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

^^^ RajeshA garu, guys like him are plenty. He is a hate mongerer, very obvious from his blog, taking snaps of pieces of $hit and attributing it to India is not least bit factual. And this is not new, every westerner has this view about India, he is in fact the epitome of Westerner, just that he is bit more vocal. Anyone can take any sort of picture in any country to denigrate it, and it also appears he is a linguist? I don't know why linguists have an axe to grind against India :)

See him talk about caste system :). Shows how knowledgeable he is about India. It is beyond him, and there are plenty like him from comments, so nice we will dishearten lot of people. It is said, jealousy is a nice compliment, and a sign of inferiority complex, and it also makes people like him write blogs lashing out India and Indians :).
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

RajeshA, There is white supremacy group in US that has a picture of Priety Zinta as specimen of a true Aryan!!!

Shiv, Good analysis of Horse and Central Asian fetishes.

lalmohan, I thought during the last Ice Age the horse migrated/crossed over from North America to Central Asia and it got hunted down to extinction in North America.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

ramana - yes it did get hunted to extinction, but was then reintroduced by the spanish. the great plains tribes took to domesticating the feral breeds very quickly - that was my point, despite centuries of no contact with the species

wild horse populations lived all over europe too, and over many other areas (not aware of any in australia) and i think i am right in saying that the modern horse or its predecessor prezawlski's horse and similar variants were not present in africa either. but not unnatural to think they were right across the eurasian landmass, including india
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

Lalmohan, Thanks. One question. What rules out the horse migrating into Indian plains via the north kashmir passes in ancient times? I recall reading that draught animals left lose in the kashmir passes by the traders after collpase of Silk route had turned wild and were living there.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

nothing at all, in fact during the ice ages, i am sure that plenty of animals (and people) moved south into india by any available route
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

VenuG, the Counter strike has begun! This time with India psec scholars addng to the mix:


Bones kill myth of happy Harappa
Bones kill myth of happy Harappa - Study shows gender discrimination


Gwen Robbins Schug looks at a Harappan human bone at the Anthropological Survey of India in Calcutta

New Delhi, Nov. 20: A study of human bones from the ruins of Harappa has revealed signs of lethal interpersonal violence and challenged current thinking that the ancient Indus civilisation was an exceptionally peaceful realm for its inhabitants.

An American bioarchaeologist has said that her analysis of skeletal remains from Harappa kept at the Anthropological Survey of India, Calcutta, suggests that women, children and individuals with visible infectious diseases were at a high risk of facing violence.


Gwen Robbins Schug studied the skeletal remains of 160 individuals from cemeteries of Harappa excavated during the 20th century. The burial practices and injuries on these bones may be interpreted as evidence for social hierarchy, unequal power, uneven access to resources, and outright violence, she said in a presentation earlier this week at a meeting of the American Anthropological Association in Montreal, Canada.

“The skeletal remains from Harappa tell us a compelling story about social suffering and violence,” said Robbins Schug. “The violence was present in low frequency at Harappa, but it affected some communities more than others,” she said.

{This is what happens when social enigineering meets ancient archaelogy!}

She found signs of accidental injuries on skeletal parts, but the majority of head injuries appeared to be the result of clubbing. The prevalence of such head injuries was about six per cent — a low figure for an ancient state-society. However, the distribution of the head injuries across gender and class appeared striking.

About half the female skeletons from one cemetery had severe head injuries caused likely by blows from clubs. In another pit of bones, which archaeologists call area G, 22 per cent skeletons had acute head trauma as well as chronic highly-visible infectious diseases.

“The individuals in area G appeared marginalised even in burial — they suffered the most extreme injuries and had the highest prevalence of diseases, and they were interred just beyond a sewage drain,” Robbins Schug told The Telegraph.

Area G also had skeletal remains of children similarly affected. A male adult skull showed a sword cut between the eye sockets, another male skeleton had an early version of craniotomy (brain surgery) to deal with a head injury. But no female or child skeletons showed evidence of such treatment. This could imply a hierarchy in access to a medical care, Robbins Schug said, or the victims had received fatal blows.

{So absence of evidence is indicator of presence of discrimination. What if the site was a burial pit of dead people no matter how they died?}

Harappa was among the largest and most populous cities in the Indus civilisation between 2600 BC and 1900 BC.

While Anthropological Survey of India researchers had recognised the injuries on human bones from Harappa decades ago, the injuries remained largely uninvestigated.

Most research until now had been directed at arguing that the injuries on the bones were not due to an Aryan invasion and, one archaeologist said , there has been no systematic effort to understand the cause of injuries or interpret their significance.

“This study shows how bones can give us insight into ancient societies,” said Veena Mushrif-Tripathy, an archaeologist who specialises in skeletal biology at the Deccan College, Pune, who was not associated with the study.

“The Indus cities had large complex societies in some ways similar to our modern societies and it would have been surprising if we had no evidence of interpersonal violence," :mrgreen: Mushrif-Tripathy said.Several scholars had earlier proposed that town plans of Harappa and other Indus cities indicate social hierarchy. Some researchers have suggested that an autocratic priest ruler :mrgreen: exercised control over access to resources.

An Indian anthropologist Anek Ram Sankhyan :mrgreen: said earlier research on the skeletal remains from the Indus cities had independently suggested that women had lower levels of nutrition than men. :mrgreen: “Dental enamel studies have hinted at gender-based nutritional discrimination,” said Sankhyan who had collaborated with Robbins Schug earlier this year in analysing the male skull with the evidence for craniotomy.

The Indus civilisation experienced a period of decline between 1900 BC and 1700 BC, although what caused this decline remains unclear. Some researchers have attributed the eventual fall of the civilisation to climate change, others have linked it to changes in trade patterns and economy.

Archaeologists say there is need for caution in interpreting the new observations. The finding that women, children and infected individuals appeared to be disproportionately exposed to violence may be used as arguments for a society where the status of women was lower than that of men, and where people with visible infectious diseases were viewed as social outcasts, said Mushrif-Tripathy. :mrgreen:

Mushrif-Tripathy had collaborated with Robbins Schug in an earlier study of skeletal remains from Balathal in Rajasthan where they had observed evidence of leprosy in a skeleton dated from 1500 BC.

{So both Indian experts are collaborators of the US person! Its group think.}

Social exclusion of people affected by leprosy was practiced in various cultures during medieval times, Mushrif Tripathy said. But, she said, without written records from the Indus civilisation, “It is impossible to say whether this was violence through actions of individuals or under direction of the state,” she said.

A University of Cambridge archaeologist Jane McIntosh had about a decade ago in her book on the Indus civilisation described it as an exceptionally “peaceful realm” where everyone led a comfortable existence under the benevolent leadership of a dedicated priesthood. The research by Robbins Schug, supported by the US India Educational Foundation, has challenged that assumption through bones that have carried tales across the centuries.

{So its a competetion between two gor women scholars! And desis are the gungadins with their own agendas.}
{Poor Harappans! Not only do they get invaded by Aryans, starved by failed monsoon fed mythical rivers, now have charges of gender discrimination!!! Can anyone come out the charge of "Have you stopped beating your wife!"}
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_20317 »

^^^
LOL. This goes deeper

The project was (taken from CV of Veena Mushrif-Tripathy).
As a collaborator in the project titled "Palaeopathology and the Indus Civilization". This
project is funded with a Fulbright‐Nehru Senior Research Fellowship with United States
India Educational Foundation. The project is an examination of the skeletal evidence from
Harappa and Kalibangan with the goal of addressing hypotheses about the origin and
evolution of infectious diseases (syphilis, leprosy, and tuberculosis).
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... GFkM2NlMTU


But then there is this claim by the American lady that Anek Ram Sankhyan ji is basically a chor. Also looks like this guy is publishing the same story with different headings (see the pic on this site).

http://dalitrefugees.blogspot.in/2011/0 ... el-at.html
Robbins Schug, the principal investigator on a research project approved by the Indian and US governments to study skeletal remains from Indus valley sites, has said she is in broad agreement with the paper's findings published in the journal Current Sciencethis week.

But she has complained to the Indian Academy of Sciences, the journal's publishers, that the paper reports the results of her research, and Sankhyan had published it without her knowledge or approval.
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"She came as a student to learn things — students cannot be authors," Sankhyan said.

Anek Ram Sankhyan ji has this to his credit too. The Narmada Man/Woman, that was pigymy-sized with large head, that he concluded from research done on collar bone.

http://www.indianexpress.com/Storyold/36320/
CHANDIGARH, June 7: An Indian anthropologist, who surprised the world last year with his discovery of a five to seven lakh year-old human clavicle (collar bone) fossil from Central Narmada Valley, now endeavours to disprove the known theory of human evolution by establishing that Narmada Man represented the earliest form of homo sapiens.
.
.
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The specimen was originally misidentified and later, after sustained research, was recognised as a hominid."I am trying to weave and re-write the theory of evolution of human beings from a reassessment of the evolutionary relationships of the Narmada Man in a global framework,''Dr Sankhyan said.
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Two evolutions, one in Africa and another in Asia, in Narmada Valley, may have existed, he claimed while disputing the Chinese claims of a separate evolution. He said, Chinese Man was only three-lakh year old.The Narmada Man could not have come from Africa as he was distinct in features from him. The African Man had a small head and was much nearer to an ape than modern man. On the other hand, Narmada Man was pigymy-sized with large head and was a much closer version of modern man, claims Dr Sankhyan.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_20317 »

I wonder if Narmada Man spoke PIE :rotfl:
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by svinayak »

ravi_g wrote:I wonder if Narmada Man spoke PIE :rotfl:
Only martian people spoke PIE.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:VenuG, the Counter strike has begun! This time with India psec scholars addng to the mix:

Bones kill myth of happy Harappa - Study shows gender discrimination


New Delhi, Nov. 20: A study of human bones from the ruins of Harappa has revealed signs of lethal interpersonal violence and challenged current thinking that the ancient Indus civilisation was an exceptionally peaceful realm for its inhabitants.

“The skeletal remains from Harappa tell us a compelling story about social suffering and violence,” said Robbins Schug. “The violence was present in low frequency at Harappa, but it affected some communities more than others,” she said.

{This is what happens when social enigineering meets ancient archaelogy!}

A University of Cambridge archaeologist Jane McIntosh had about a decade ago in her book on the Indus civilisation described it as an exceptionally “peaceful realm” where everyone led a comfortable existence under the benevolent leadership of a dedicated priesthood. The research by Robbins Schug, supported by the US India Educational Foundation, has challenged that assumption through bones that have carried tales across the centuries.

{So its a competetion between two gor women scholars! And desis are the gungadins with their own agendas.}


{Poor Harappans! Not only do they get invaded by Aryans, starved by failed monsoon fed mythical rivers, now have charges of gender discrimination!!! Can anyone come out the charge of "Have you stopped beating your wife!"}


This is exactly what they did to the Mayan civilization. When they want to disown and discredit what first they wanted to admire then will come up similar charges!
The Mayans were found to be a very highly developed civilization. They lived in the jungle of Mexico and Central-America. The Mayan culture was the most developed culture in the whole of ancient America. This culture ruled Peten's and Jukatani's peninsula for thousands of years. 40-50 years ago everyone thought Mayans were a peace-loving community who studied the movements of planets and lived their own world. But recent readings of hieroglyphics and fortresses found in excavations show that Mayans were very violent, in fact perhaps one of the most war-prone people in the ancient world. The Mayans were very intelligent as evidenced by their books, calendars, study of astronomy, and number system. It's amazing that Mayans lived in Central-America's tropical rain forest because that was a very difficult place to build mighty cities and at the same time invent some of the best inventions in the world. Many anthropologists have decided that the Mayan-culture developed some place other than the rain forest, as the rain forest was too hostile an environment to build mighty cities.
http://library.thinkquest.org/11577/



{Poor Harappans! Not only do they get invaded by Aryans, starved by failed monsoon fed mythical rivers, now have charges of gender discrimination!!! Can anyone come out the charge of "Have you stopped beating your wife!"}

You need to introduce the language too that they spoke PIE.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

^^^ Ramana garu, yes seems like it, Ms.Schug is very eager to prove that something is terribly wrong with Harappa Indus Civilization, with castes, gender discrimination and may be even domestic violence, it appears she threw in everything she had. Might have read Robert Lindsay's blog.

Ravi garu, you got that right :)
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Prem »

PIE= PIES =Purani Indian Exported
Sanskrit.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by tyroneshoes »

Three simple questions:

1. Who is funding journals and studies of the non-science called Indo-European Linguistics?

2. Is there a good "Indo-European language" family chart with time as one of the axis? Some versions I've seen has Lycian and Lithuanian older than Vedic :shock:

3. Forget the Laws of Linguistics, Has there been any research on similarity of languages using stochastic models that do not embed "cooked up" laws that characterize Indo-European Linguistics?

PS: Descriptive and even prescriptive Linguistics cannot be blamed for the naughtiness of the Indo-European Linguists. The former may still redeem their craft through science, the latter are doomed to non-science.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

I was under the impression that this is a vital strategic subject and that it deserves to be talked publicly and openly, rather than only in hushed tones in GDF, invisible to the casual BRF visitor. The moderators may wish to enlighten on this matter. Thank you!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Yagnasri »

I second that. This needs to be done in public.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by tyroneshoes »

Shhhh! Perhaps there is a Indo-European Linguist among us :rotfl:
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

tyroneshoes wrote: 2. Is there a good "Indo-European language" family chart with time as one of the axis? Some versions I've seen has Lycian and Lithuanian older than Vedic
Unfortunately, it's hard to represent what is older in a tree. Usually trees just show which language forked out earlier. What it cannot show is that even languages that fork out late, continue to carry very old features.

Eg. although Anatolian group (where Lycian is) forked out earlier, it doesn't preserve older features which Sanskrit does. like the voiced aspirates 'bh'/'gh'
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

I am thinking any "Reverse AIT" established would prove out of India more emphatically. However, I would say it would be more plausible if we see migration patterns, and that only certain scoped aspects are all that is required to confirm the theory.

Meaning, we need not go all the way to out of Africa, and cut it off.. I don't know how the number of years spencer wells team come up with mitochondrial DNA studies, that points to africa. there could have been previous migration years that would have gone to africa, and lost out..

or, may be, just may be that there lived at least two types of people lived one entirely out of africa, and another set entirely out of india. further, taking the dates at a time, when the lands were not connected, and millions of years ago when first humans were mutated... and then the merge happened[for every cycle of sea level rise/up and down - migration takes place], and himalayan range was born.. and people got chance to see different kinds.

need a good movie taker to look at this.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

birth of himalayas predates human kind
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

or was it any living kind? how precise you can be on this?

btw, sea level rise cycle had happened from many ice ages earth experienced.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

i'm not a geologist, nor do i have the dates available, but the himalayas are the youngest of the major mountain ranges - even then they occured much before humans, but much after the start of life on earth. certainly mollusc and other sea life fossils are found in the himalayan strata.
ice ages repeat roughly 20-30,000 years - we might be due another one fairly soon (despite global warming). during ice ages, most species move away from the polar regions in search of food, and their predators move after them. man as the apex predator and uber opportunist moves much more rapidly
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by tyroneshoes »

ManishH wrote: Unfortunately, it's hard to represent what is older in a tree. Usually trees just show which language forked out earlier. What it cannot show is that even languages that fork out late, continue to carry very old features.

Eg. although Anatolian group (where Lycian is) forked out earlier, it doesn't preserve older features which Sanskrit does. like the voiced aspirates 'bh'/'gh'
Trying to understand the logic of Indo-European Linguists, so thank you for your patient explanations:

So let us say:

1. Language A forked from the mythical PIE tree earlier than say Language B.
2. People speaking Language A are predominantly in geographic region x today.
2. People speaking Language B are predominantly in geographic region y today.

Then can one conclude that migration occurred of mythical PIE speakers to x first and then to y - is this correct?

Another way to ask - what is a fork in the tree translate to in time and geography?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by tyroneshoes »

The title of this thread should be something like:
"Racist Indo-European Linguists' impact on Indian Identity Politics"

This is not a wajib-ul-burqa topic, it has serious bearings on security of India.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

A blog by Anurag Sanghi on:
Sands of the Sarawati
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

Topic has been moved back. Let it stay unless overtaken by confusion.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by brihaspati »

Lalmohan wrote:i'm not a geologist, nor do i have the dates available, but the himalayas are the youngest of the major mountain ranges - even then they occured much before humans, but much after the start of life on earth. certainly mollusc and other sea life fossils are found in the himalayan strata.
ice ages repeat roughly 20-30,000 years - we might be due another one fairly soon (despite global warming). during ice ages, most species move away from the polar regions in search of food, and their predators move after them. man as the apex predator and uber opportunist moves much more rapidly
Most of the trans Caucasus, Alpine ranges - are roughly timewise contemporraies of the Himaylayas. Moreover the mountains here are continuously forming in a peculiar rolling-over formation- so that more recent strata appear sometimes in a same positional category with older ones, and the really older rock might already have been recycled back into the magma - thereby problematizing the whole young mountains theory.

Ice ages are typically around 100,000 year cycles. The next one is probably not due to start seriouslyt until another 30,000 years. But there are what are called shorter glacial cycles - triggered by a complex series of factors. These could recur even on as short cycles as 400, 1500 years or so. But the scale is not as epic as it is with the regular 100,000, or 400,000, or 500,000 year possible cycles. Only once in the existing salvageable geological records do we have indication of a snowball earth - and even then apparently life survived under that ice.

But it is true that man is pushed out by glaciers. But recent evidence suggest that man may also use glaciation for his own movements. Across sea-ice for example, or hunting animals along opportune ice-free corridors [herding along channels].

Most recent speculation is about modern-human+Neanderthal+-? Denisovan culture/hybrid. Could have been the result of opportunistic use of ice age features by tropical TDME's and apparent consensual ahem ahem. Maybe the tall-dark handsome thingie is a deep genetic memory in cold-dark adapted wimmin in the snowy zones?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

Bji, If you go to the 2nd Look blog he mentions the geological record of Akkad suffering from the several centuries drought around 4100BC. Drought cant be just a local phenomena. Could Saraswati be drying up from that time till the end of MB war when its is mentioned Blarama went on tirtha yatra along the drying river banks?
From astronomical dating it is estimated that MB took place ~3100BC. Does that make sense? Would those seals or priest figures be of a latter date? Recall after MB war there was general loss of state power? So some local authority figure/s took over city leadership?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shyamoo »

ManishH saar,

I have a couple of questions for you:

1) Do you believe in or agree with AIT/AMT?
2) If the answer to the above is "No", then would it be possible to use your vast knowledge of linguistics to claim OIT? The claim necessarily doesn't have to provide concrete proof, but using any existing valid data and data that is open to interpretation could you conjure up a hypothesis?

Folks are spending a lot of time discussing / refuting claims by AIT/AMT proponents. Let's reverse the roles :-)
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

shyamji: Let conclusions follow evidence, not 'belief'. Evidence is anyway not conclusive for or against any theory.

Linguistics on its own cannot specify the homeland as India or otherwise - all it indicates is that there is a parent to these languages - neither Euro branches, neither Indo-Iranian branches can be the parent. It's only supporting evidence from archaeology of Eurasian steppe that is used to claim a homeland there.

If tomorrow, archaeology reveals horse domestication in India, or ancient DNA studies on Indian subcontinent reveal antiquity of R1a1 before 2nd mill. BC, things will be revised. I'm not sure if you are aware of new finds being made re: Horse domestication in S. Arabia (Al-Magar).
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by brihaspati »

ramana ji,
Akkadian would be I estimate around 4100 YBP, around 2100 BCE. This is true about droughts - for it also wiped off the old Egypt and possibly affected India around the same time. Roughly this is the so-called 1500 years [ 1475] cycle of global megadroughts. The cycle is not perfect - but suspected to be related to long period solar activity cycles. There are probably even longer more intense drought cycles of the order of 12,000, 18K, or 30K cycles [ the one that goes on periodically creating and greening sahara]. The Indus basin drainage dried up significantly in the period you refer to.

Rainfall peaked in 5700 BCE after steady increase from 8000 BCE [ atmospheric water increases post glacially and the last big release of meltwater, and monsoon strengthening] and then steadily decreasing from 5700 BCE to 2200 BCE when they reached current levels. By 4000 BCE already Saraswati basin would be dehydrating comapred to full flow around 6000 BCE. Hence yes if MB took place around 3000, they would be closer to modern desiccated range than full flow. Moreover, 3100 BCE appears to also have been a point of a global climatic debacle but of shorter duration - like some 400 years. We dont really know what happened - but drought, intense cold snap, dust storm all seems to be indicated. Causes are being researched into - including a large mid-eastern meteor crash hypothesis, some really bad El-nino etc.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

tyroneshoes wrote: Another way to ask - what is a fork in the tree translate to in time and geography?
Forks in the tree do not translate to time - eg. some languages can change very fast. In 60s, people tried to predict 'rates of change' but they are all proven false now.

Fixing geography, as I've said, requires a lot of corroborative evidence from other fields - like archaeology (esp. epigraphic evidence). Then loan words in non-IE languages also provide some hints - eg. The IE loans in Finno-Ugric are in a form that has satem-ized. So one can say Finno-Ugric people were in contact with the satem branch.

An example: the unique shared features between all Iranian dialects and Vedic indicate a period of unity - but it's impossible to fix where on earth that period of unity was.

Coming back to your example ...
So let us say:

1. Language A forked from the mythical PIE tree earlier than say Language B.
2. People speaking Language A are predominantly in geographic region x today.
2. People speaking Language B are predominantly in geographic region y today.

Then can one conclude that migration occurred of mythical PIE speakers to x first and then to y - is this correct?
One has to be a bit more specific - eg. look at unique phonetic features of language X - if it has older features, it is the first to split off (one can't use the word migrate yet). Eg. Hittite inscriptions still show one laryngeal. And one can't explain some differences in inflection between other languages easily without a laryngeal, so it is safe to say that Hittite split first. But can one jump up and say Hittite migrated ? Not yet, without knowing that horse domestication and chariotry developed first in eurasian steppes.

Another critical evidence is Bee-keeping. The word for honey is has cognates in many IE languages. Archaeological evidence for bee-keeping could be one of the strong factors that determine geographical origins.

If the corroborating archaeological evidence is revised, so will be the homeland.
Last edited by ManishH on 01 Jun 2012 09:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_20317 »

Bji,
Request you to tell us if there is a break/hiatus in the creative cycles of the people along the Saraswati/Indus. Surely if such climatic changes were taking place and that was having effects on the demographic distribution too, then there must be some effect on the creativity of such uprooted people. Such changes will bring about different kinds of stories and may even cause a drying up of story telling.

I am wondering if there are other ways of filling out the gaps in epic writing.

Just my speculation though
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by tyroneshoes »

ManishH wrote: An example: the unique shared features between all Iranian dialects and Vedic indicate a period of unity - but it's impossible to fix where on earth that period of unity was.
So, how do we know who came first and if the meeting was incidental?
That is, mere adjacency with some influence, versus split off from parent?

The Iranian Avesta afaik has reference to a homeland and migration. The Vedas afaik does not. Also, there is clear description of the original homeland:

Interesting to see what the Iranians believe -

Location of Aryan Homeland
Verses 10.13-14 of the Meher Yasht state that the Aryan land had many mountains, valleys, and pastures (pouru vastraongho) that supported cattle (gave). It was rich in waters (afento), deep lakes (jafra varayo) and wide rivers. The land, while mountainous had alpine meadows and fertile, well-watered vales.
Meher Yasht 10.13-14 states that the Aryan lands had high mountains (garayo berezanto), and was the central place from which the great Hara Berezaiti mountain ranges (Pahlavi Harburz and Persian Alburz) radiated east and west. The arm extending eastward towards the oceans was probably the Himalayas. The Hara Berezaiti ranges contained two thousand, two hundred and forty four mountains peaks (Zamyad Yasht 19.1 and Greater Bundahishn 9.3). The sun rose over the high summits of the Hara Berezaiti after which it cast its rays over the Aryan lands, indicating that the taller mountains were just to the east of the habitable lower regions, the tallest being the eponymous lofty Mount Hara. The sun sets between the Hara Berezaiti's peaks to the west of Airyana Vaeja.
ManishH wrote: Another critical evidence is Bee-keeping. The word for honey is has cognates in many IE languages. Archaeological evidence for bee-keeping could be one of the strong factors that determine geographical origins.

If the corroborating archaeological evidence is revised, so will be the homeland.
Is'nt there evidence during Post-Mesolithic period for humans raiding honey combs in India?

Also, should not the use of animals/creatures in the language be an indicator? Like use of words for elephant (ibha), peacock (mayura), tiger (vyagra) or rhino (ganda or khanda).
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