Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29th May 2012

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 Jun 2012 01:52

Scary days for a paki-mullah "Indian diesel will make your daughter want go to school"

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 01 Jun 2012 01:53

LM Ji well said. Personally i am not in favor of giving the Paki's an inch of a life line. But i am more against known trolls bullying a legitimate exercise into exploring a possibility that may indeed bring a newer perspective to understand and analyze better changes being undertaken that are already beyond the scope of wishes that we may have.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Jun 2012 02:03

It is hardly a new perspective. Similar chankian theories have been offered before.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 01 Jun 2012 02:07

It is hardly a new perspective. Similar chankian theories have been offered before.

So is the other opposite perspective of doing nothing with the Paki's been on offering all the time in practice so far.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Jun 2012 02:10

So why did you call Lilo's proposal a "new perspective"?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 01 Jun 2012 02:32

Spinning the bad news into "Pojitive Newj". Pakistan estimates GDP growth at 3.7 per cent, misses target

According to the economic survey the government failed to achieve its growth targets in the previous year.

..Estimated GDP growth for this fiscal year ending in June: 3.7 per cent. The government had forecast 4.2 per cent growth for 2011/12.

Blame: floods damaged the agricultural sector and due to a weak global economy.

So, where's the "Pojitive Newj"?

Dr Hafeez Sheikh said a 3.7 per cent expansion would still be the best performance since 2007/08. “If we compare it to the 3 per cent last year, then this is the highest economic growth in the last three years,” he said.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 01 Jun 2012 02:39

Pakistan forex reserves fall to 16.0058 billion. Note the shameful use of four decimal points to prove a point (that the reserves are yet above $16 Bn.), which by the way may not last long:

Rupee sinks to record low against dollar

The paki currency slid 0.9 per cent to 93.8350 per dollar, which is a record low

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 01 Jun 2012 02:39

abhishek_sharma wrote:So why did you call Lilo's proposal a "new perspective"?

Abhishekji,
let me tell my side in as few lines as possible.
I have for the last few days posted on this issue (actually these 30 posts in 3 days or so on this was my longest posting spree on BRF) but my feeling through out was that the issue was quite complex and kept posting new posts elucidating my understanding further - i should have posted all the details in a single big post just so that people people can understand my thoughts in one go. But its a fact that i got most of the interest to dig deeper because other people were pinging me and it kinda spurred me ahead.

The circumstances are such that very few here were following the discussion through out its length. So many off the cuff comments were the norm - even by experienced posters. But i didnt mind them and genuinely tried my best to explain anew every time while adding new matter all the while keeping in mind people who were actually following. Maybe this adjutant matter which turned up in the discussion is what Harbhans ji was referring to as new perspectives.

But now i have decided to stop so lets stop.

Harbhans ji many thanks for your kind words.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2012 02:39

OK folks no need to chastise Lilo.

And Sanku you are reaching the warning time..
So cool it for all of us.

Thanks, ramana

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 01 Jun 2012 02:46

Abhishek ji, i didn't say 'new'. I said 'newer'. There is a whole load of difference. ''New is aboslutist. 'Newer' is Relativist. Lilo's point about selective trade in making Pakistan also a part of the basket of India's POL exports is valid. I asked him what he thought about sharing Electricity. He acknowledged he did not think it's a good idea. But whether India exports items like finshed, value added products at a reasonable benefit is a 'newer' persepctive certainly to those who just want to think no trade = good. India has as we all know offered MFN for more than a decade now. The arguments against MFN are old. In the present context, GOI is undertaking changes we cannot affect directly. By going completely against the whole we endorse a section of opinion that only motivated, biased hardliners a small majority are against Pakistan. By allowing an opinion without the subsequent bullying we lessen the case against those who want to and have the power to go all in with giving Paki's everything. It is important to get perspectives on what items we trade that may have benefit to us..and also what may not. Bully out the counter perspective if that is what you feel is good. Lesser folks will come out and spend time here trying to give a perspective.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 01 Jun 2012 02:51

EU foreign policy chief to visit Pakistan

http://zeenews.india.com/news/south-asi ... 78948.html

The visit by Ashton, who is also Vice President of the European Commission, will also provide an opportunity to reiterate Pakistan's interest for inclusion in the GSP+ and early implementation of the package of Autonomous Trade Preferences for Pakistan, Pakistan attaches "great importance to its relations with the EU and enjoys excellent relations with all EU member countries", the statement said.

Simple translation - Beggin' Bowl is being polished ahead of Ashton's visit.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 01 Jun 2012 02:56

My perspective is that, if we don't do something the gentle folks of TSP will decamp enmasse and land up on this side of the electrified border, ration cards and all. You think this can't happen, try telling it to Israel where Palestinian immigration now exceeds Jewish immigration. And Israel has no WKK at the border either. Like it or not TSP has a gun to its head and toxic brain matter is likely to land in our laps. It is truly staggering how many Pakis now call India home already.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Jun 2012 03:21

Rs 3 trillion federal budget for 2012-13 today
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2012_pg1_2

ISLAMABAD: The federal budget for the fiscal year 2012-13 with an outlay of around Rs 3 trillion will be presented in parliament today (Friday). A special meeting of the federal cabinet, chaired by Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani, was held on Thursday to consider and approve the budget proposals, official sources informed Daily Times. Decision on increase in the salaries and pension for the government employees has been left for the cabinet; however, 25 to 30 percent increase in salaries and pension is part of separate proposals. The federal government has finalised a tax collection target of Rs 2.338 trillion for fiscal year 2012-13, and this includes Rs 85 billion in revenue generation measures – Rs 40 billion worth of new taxes through broadening of tax base and generation of Rs 45 through administrative measures. The federal government will transfer Rs 1.427 trillion in 2012-13 to provinces as their share in federal taxes under NFC Award. Debt servicing and debt repayment will consume Rs 933 billion in the next fiscal. The government is aiming to contain fiscal deficit at just over Rs 1.2 trillion. Provinces will be required to create a budget surplus of Rs 112 billion to help federal government keep fiscal deficit to the projected level. Non-tax revenue target is also jacked up from earlier proposed target of Rs 562 billion to Rs 737 billion. Official sources informed that allocation for federal Public Sector Development Programme has been set at Rs 360 billion, and Rs 100 billion would be spent on development programme outside the PSDP, taking the total to Rs 460 billion for 2012-13. staff report

saip · Post by **saip** » 01 Jun 2012 03:35

^^

Rs 3 trillion federal budget for 2012-13 today

That is equivalent to US 32 Billion. Is this not almost same as India's defense budget?

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jun 2012 06:49

arun wrote:The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is claiming that Dr. Shakil Afridi, the informant who provided information leading to the execution of Mohammadden Terrorist Osama Bin Laden just outside the premises of the Pakistan Military Academy at Kakul was actually jailed for supporting Mohammadden Terrorists and NOT for the act of providing intelligence to the CIA on Bin Ladens whereabouts.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan alleges that Dr Shakil Afridi was linked with the Mohammadden Terrorist group Lashkar-e-Islam (LI) led by Mangal Bagh and to which group he gave PKR 2 million and provided medical assistance there to the LI's commanders Said Noor Malikdinkhel, Hazrat from the Sepah tribe, Wahid from the Shalobar Qambarkhel tribe and others:

Dr Afridi convicted for militant links

“The Mangal Bagh-led militant organisation Lashkar-e-Islam (LI) Thursday ruled out any links with alleged CIA operative Dr Shakil Afridi and added that he was on the outfit’s hit-list for his role in helping the US kill former al-Qaeda chief” …………………………..

LI, Taliban deny links with Dr Afridi

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 01 Jun 2012 07:40

All interactions with TSP have to have the holistic goal of weakening the Kabila and allowing indigenous forces to emerge.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Jun 2012 07:53

All is in well in pakistan

Facing the reality of Pakistan

It’s been 65 years since the British departed from the Subcontinent after breaking the jewel in the crown into two, leaving behind a blazing inferno of madness that raged on for months and years. Even though the official narrative puts the toll at a million on both sides, it’s estimated to be far higher. Millions were driven from their homes and their properties destroyed, not to mention the rape of tens of thousands of women in this unprecedented exchange of populations. Thousands of Muslim women were abducted in Punjab and a substantial number of them were forced to live with the shame and their tormentors.It’s perhaps because of that violent separation that the Partition debate refuses to die even after 65 years. Pundits and academics on either side of the divide never seem to have enough of it. With Pakistan tottering from one crisis to another in recent years, a new intensity has been introduced in the debate.His warning about the split of East Pakistan came true in a matter of two decades. He was spot on in his analysis about Pakistan’s siege within and competing sectarian and regional identities overwhelming the national identity. He has been prescient about the new nation being ensnared in the machinations of world powers.Questioning the rationale behind a separate homeland for Muslims, he says: “The question is when and where Islam provided for division of territories to settle populations on the basis of belief. Does this find any sanction in the Quran or the traditions of the Prophet? If we accept this division in principle, how shall we reconcile it with Islam as a universal system? The political disputes we created in the name of religion have projected Islam as an instrument of political power and not what it is – a value system meant for the transformation of human soul.”
He laments the fact that the demand for a separate country in the name of Islam has poisoned Hindu-Muslim relations dealing a deadly blow to the cause of faith: “The factors that laid the foundation of Islam in India and created a powerful following have become victims of the politics of Partition. The communal hatred it has generated has extinguished all possibilities of spreading Islam.”Azad repeatedly argues that Indian Muslims would pay the greatest price for the territorial division of the Subcontinent: “It won’t be possible for Pakistan to accommodate all the Muslims of India, a task beyond her territorial capability. On the other hand, it won’t be possible for Hindus to stay on in Pakistan. This will have its repercussions in India and the Indian Muslims. More than 30 million Muslims will be left behind in India. What promise Pakistan holds for them? The situation that will arise after the expulsion of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan will be still more dangerous for them.”
Almost everything Azad predicted seems to have come true, including his warning about the marginalisation of the Indian Muslims. It’s not easy even for the worst critics of the man dismissed by Jinnah as ‘the show boy of Congress’ to demolish any of his statements or facts including his contention that demanding Pakistan meant turning “our eyes away from the history of the last 1,000 years.”

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 01 Jun 2012 07:55

saip wrote:^^

Rs 3 trillion federal budget for 2012-13 today

That is equivalent to US 32 Billion. Is this not almost same as India's defense budget?

It is less than that.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Jun 2012 08:04

Dipanker wrote:
saip wrote:^^Rs 3 trillion federal budget for 2012-13 todayThat is equivalent to US 32 Billion. Is this not almost same as India's defense budget?
It is less than that.

Any one familiar with Poaqugglery of numbers will know that there is atleast 30% exxageration in the estimates of PoaqDekhonomeny minister. Regardless, the allocation for the development of this land of 190Millions is under 4 Billion in the budget i.e 18$per capita for health, education roads, rail, Power and other infrastructure. Going by the corruption, i doubt they will spend even a Billion.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jun 2012 08:58

Military Attache of one of the 3.5 friends of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan roughed up by State Actors.

Is this a “brotherly” act?

Refusing to cooperate: ‘ASF men rough up Saudi embassy official’

RAWALPINDI:

Airport Security Force personnel at the Benazir Bhutto International Airport allegedly entered into an altercation with the military attaché of the Saudi embassy on Thursday, after he refused to cooperate during security checks and abused Pakistan and called Pakistani officials his “servants” .

According to officials from the ASF, Colonel Sukhari, who was meant to fly out to Riyadh, refused to get a routine body check and started quarrelling with the security personnel at the airport. The ASF officials said that the military attaché insisted that he was not subject to a body search because he was a diplomat. ....................

Express Tribune

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Jun 2012 10:52

From The First World War by John Keegan

European Harmony

Europe in the summer of 1914 enjoyed a peaceful productivity so dependent on international exchange and co-operation that a belief in the impossibility of general war seemed the most conventional of wisdoms. In 1910 an analysis of prevailing economic interdependence, The Great Illusion, had become a best-seller; its author Norman Angell had demonstrated, to the satisfaction of almost all informed opinion, that the disruption of international credit inevitably to be caused by war would either deter its outbreak or bring it speedily to an end. It was a message to which the industrial and commercial society of that age was keenly sympathetic.

This is not OT.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2012 11:27

Lalmohan wrote:any need to get heavy with lilo? he is exploring an idea from all aspects

That's the problem, anyone trying to think outside the collective BRF group think is immediately branded a WKK, imbecile and one who supports terrorist attacks, among other interesting adjectives. I told Lilo that this is one la la discussion which he wouldn't be even allowed to have let alone win, in terms of convincing others. I really fail to understand why some folks need to get nasty and personal with other folks with whom they do not agree.

Folks seem to forget that at the end of the day what we do is time pass and policy is not made based on what the group think of the day is on BRF.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Jun 2012 11:56

How can you call it that. It is the last best hope for peace between sdres and tftas.

You know why. The advocates of this move wish to convince the jihadies that it is better to extract jazia form sdres then killing them.

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 Jun 2012 12:01

I think we should also export Agni-V to TSP with MIRV capability with the hope that may be someday they might slip a couple of such missiles to Uighurs who might use it against China because our guys in south block are not in a condition to even phyrr their bersonal mijjile.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 01 Jun 2012 12:05

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 01 Jun 2012 12:06

abhishek_sharma wrote:From The First World War by John Keegan
European Harmony.....
This is not OT.

AbhishekJi,
To contextify your quote please also see this.
Amitji, as always thanks for your support.

Gents, now in an well expected development ....

Pakistan based militants deny links with Osama doctor
While Pakistani officials had earlier said Dr Shakeel Afridi was jailed for his links with CIA, a court document which surfaced on Wednesday states the doctor was actually sentenced for his ties with banned terror group, Lashkar-e-Islam.

Spokesmen of Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) and Lashkar-e-Islam denied Afridi was in league with them.

TTP spokesperson Ehsanullah Ehsan said the government was staging a drama to free Afridi under US pressure. "The penalty for Afridi is death. We believe he will be in America soon. Osama was our hero and Afridi helped the US kill him. He is our enemy." Lashkar-e-Islam spokesperson Abdur Rasheed said, "We have no link with Afridi. If we find him we'll eliminate him."

The tribal court which convicted Afridi had referred to an intelligence report which said the doctor had paid Rs 2 million to Lashkar-e-Islami during his stint at a government hospital in Khyber. Refuting the charge, Rasheed said it was a fine slapped on Afridi after locals complained of fake surgeries and overcharging.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Jun 2012 12:42

amit wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:any need to get heavy with lilo? he is exploring an idea from all aspects

That's the problem, anyone trying to think outside the collective BRF group think is immediately branded a WKK, imbecile and one who supports terrorist attacks, among other interesting adjectives. I told Lilo that this is one la la discussion which he wouldn't be even allowed to have let alone win, in terms of convincing others. I really fail to understand why some folks need to get nasty and personal with other folks with whom they do not agree.

Folks seem to forget that at the end of the day what we do is time pass and policy is not made based on what the group think of the day is on BRF.

While I agree on name calling is not warranted, but this intolerence stems from the our Media/ education system where a non INC/ Leftist point of view is never tolerated.

I feel posters here should state why they disagree, but sometimes points which have been rebutted and proven false premises are brought up again and again.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Jun 2012 12:53

the forum medium encourages knee jerk behaviour, not rational thought and no/limited reflection, and anonymity allows bad manners, and group think predominates with swift condemnation of ideas.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 01 Jun 2012 13:23

amit wrote: That's the problem, anyone trying to think outside the collective BRF group think is immediately branded a WKK, imbecile and one who supports terrorist attacks, among other interesting adjectives. I told Lilo that this is one la la discussion which he wouldn't be even allowed to have let alone win, in terms of convincing others. I really fail to understand why some folks need to get nasty and personal with other folks with whom they do not agree.
Folks seem to forget that at the end of the day what we do is time pass and policy is not made based on what the group think of the day is on BRF.

And even if Lilo wins, this is time pass according to you - so why bother at all. Sorry but your post is rudderless. And no this is not a personal attack.

Wrt TSP there are members here who feel that enough has been done. Like a insect trying to get through a glass window, CBMs have been done/we have been magnanimous/we have spared their lives hoping for a better future. The golden mantra has been that stable TSP is in India's/Solar system's interest and India should do everything it can to keep the monster alive even while those nutters shoot everyone and themselves. Now, as long as they kill themselves, no one is peckin bothered.But they have repeatedly crossed borders and attacked our fellow citizens and destroyed lives. You or anyone FTM have no right to play the victim card here on this forum...there are real life victims and they have not had their justice and this makes a lot of people here bristle. Are these forum members right? Damn sure they are. Please keep this in mind - a personal attack/nasty comment is a manifestation of this grudge that Indian lives have been lost for nothing. 99.9% of the folks have not met Lilo in person...so they do not have other grudges.

You/Lilo anyone must know this first and expect these sentiments before you post. Not expecting these sentiments...well you know what happened.
The onus is on you to frame the words correctly. And if you don't ....well you know what happened.

End of the day ( and I will keep repeating it) we have had the TSP terrorist menace since 1980s. 30 years. And 30 years is a long time. People have run out of patience. We really need a "final" solution. [ Sue me! ]

Edit:
GoI policy wrt TSP - For the last 3-4 decades, if we put marks to it , I think it overwhelmingly fails. What has GoI done to sort the menace? So when it has nothing to show so far, it is not a surprise that anything evenly mildly compromising willl face flak. No surprise here no? you cannot blame those here who point to that failure.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2012 13:55

Neela wrote:Sorry but your post is rudderless. And no this is not a personal attack.

Neela,

My post may very well be rudderless, however, your post has a big hole in it as you did not understand what I was trying to convey. It's not a question of whether Lilo, you or I am right or wrong. It's about being able to state whatever POV one has without having one's credentials, loyalty, moral compass etc being questioned.

Sure just has Lilo has his POV others may have diametrically opposite POVs and many of them have explained what these are in a civil manner. However, there have been others whose entire posts have been thinly veiled personal attacks, that's what I'm pointing to. I had also written a few posts earlier which said that this might be an idea worth exploring and I had a particular poster, whose wrath everyone has felt sometime or the other, claiming that I support terrorist attacks in India and that I don't know the fundamentals of economics (I hope my employers didn't read that

)

I don't know if you've read it but sometime ago Ravi Karumanchiri made a very valid point in the feedback thread. See here

At it's center, the problem is that there is no appreciation for the difference between 'discussion' and 'dialogue'. IN BRIEF: 'Discussion' is like a percussive back-and-forth, where there's a tit-for-tat of point versus counterpoint. For far too many people, this is the only way they know how to communicate, and because they are emotionally invested in their ideas/words, it gets nasty pretty quickly. Speaking for myself, this kind of "discourse" (in the form of a series of thread posts) is usually not worth reading.

On the other side, 'Dialogue' is what happens when people hold-out their ideas/words for others to examine and to comment and critique. IMHO, this is a much more fruitful means of discourse, in that it is mutually additive, conceptually-focussed (rather than personally-focussed), and it can advance toward a shared understanding much more efficiently and genuinely than any "discussion" ever can, in whatever form. In large part, this is because people engaged in dialogue are much more playful with their ideas/words, and they are not emotionally invested in them so that they can receive criticism without becoming defensive/ offensive. It's a more adult way of communicating.

Dr. Peter Senge's classic business book 'The Fifth Discipline' describes this concept as 'mental models', and how business teams can have more fruitful discourse by using dialogue instead of discussion -- the objective being the development of a 'shared vision' of an issue or idea, not 'one-upmanship', which seems to be the entire point of many of the 'discussions' that have appeared in BRF threads.

Neela wrote:People have run out of patience. We really need a "final" solution. [ Sue me! ]

You see the bolded portion shows exactly what I mean. Why should I "sue" you? You are presupposing that just because I wrote a post supporting Lilo and earlier a few posts which said that getting a stranglehold on the Pakis oil supplies (with a huge caveat that they would never agree to this, which proved to be right) might be an idea worth exploring that I also don't want a "final solution" to the pestilence that is breeding on our western border.

Remember there are many ways to skin a cat and a shooting war is not the only way. Economic warfare is also a viable option and that can be waged only when there's leverage.

Anyway my last post on this issue. There's too much wind blowing in the opposite direction for a p!!sing contest.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 01 Jun 2012 13:56

Folks ,
I have already said this many times - and iam at my wits end.

No one here advocated trade as a CBM - neither myself nor Amitji. Nor have we never advocated it as a measure to "normalize" relationship with pakis. Nor have we advocated it as a measure to help pakis.
It should be amply clear to anyone following the discussion with an objective mind.

Ill quote myself again

The circumstances are such that very few here were following the discussion through out its length. So many off the cuff comments were the norm - even by experienced posters.

Stop giving off the cuff comments without following the discussion.

Donot show impatience with my supposed hurt to your sensibilities if you dont have the patience to actually read what i/we have written.

Simply put prove the intent which you are alleging on us by quoting relevant sections of our posts
Else dont bother to give your informed opinions on this matter .

PS: Before pissing on people's reputations please use profile tab and do a quick scan of my past posts . Instead of jumping the gun and stating that i need "reeducation on pakis" as Mahdi ji has so sweetly put it.

A few quicklinks for the most impatient of you lot link1 link2 link3

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2012 14:02

Lilo, a gentle request, seriously. Perhaps the issue here is not that folks do not understand what you have said.

Maybe the issue is that the folks have understood what you have said, and have also been able to see overall ramifications of what you are saying, something that escapes you right now?

Perhaps the real issue that you have not understood what people are telling you?

Think about it, and no please don't take this otherwise, this is meant in all good will and with a spirit to help.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 01 Jun 2012 14:12

Sankuji,

If folks have really followed the discussion they would have put down my arguments and not me and they would'nt have used traitorous apellations and insuniations like WKK, ready to bend etc. There would have been more empathetic and less judgemental (of character).

Its as simple as that.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 01 Jun 2012 14:14

amit wrote:
Neela wrote:Sorry but your post is rudderless. And no this is not a personal attack.
Neela,

My post may very well be rudderless, however, your post has a big hole in it as you did not understand what I was trying to convey. It's not a question of whether Lilo, you or I am right or wrong. It's about being able to state whatever POV one has without having one's credentials, loyalty, moral compass etc being questioned.

Sure just has Lilo has his POV others may have diametrically opposite POVs and many of them have explained what these are in a civil manner. However, there have been others whose entire posts have been thinly veiled personal attacks, that's what I'm pointing to. I had also written a few posts earlier which said that this might be an idea worth exploring and I had a particular poster, whose wrath everyone has felt sometime or the other, claiming that I support terrorist attacks in India and that I don't know the fundamentals of economics (I hope my employers didn't read that )

I don't know if you've read it but sometime ago Ravi Karumanchiri made a very valid point in the feedback thread. See here

At it's center, the problem is that there is no appreciation for the difference between 'discussion' and 'dialogue'. IN BRIEF: 'Discussion' is like a percussive back-and-forth, where there's a tit-for-tat of point versus counterpoint. For far too many people, this is the only way they know how to communicate, and because they are emotionally invested in their ideas/words, it gets nasty pretty quickly. Speaking for myself, this kind of "discourse" (in the form of a series of thread posts) is usually not worth reading.

On the other side, 'Dialogue' is what happens when people hold-out their ideas/words for others to examine and to comment and critique. IMHO, this is a much more fruitful means of discourse, in that it is mutually additive, conceptually-focussed (rather than personally-focussed), and it can advance toward a shared understanding much more efficiently and genuinely than any "discussion" ever can, in whatever form. In large part, this is because people engaged in dialogue are much more playful with their ideas/words, and they are not emotionally invested in them so that they can receive criticism without becoming defensive/ offensive. It's a more adult way of communicating.

Dr. Peter Senge's classic business book 'The Fifth Discipline' describes this concept as 'mental models', and how business teams can have more fruitful discourse by using dialogue instead of discussion -- the objective being the development of a 'shared vision' of an issue or idea, not 'one-upmanship', which seems to be the entire point of many of the 'discussions' that have appeared in BRF threads.

Neela wrote:People have run out of patience. We really need a "final" solution. [ Sue me! ]
You see the bolded portion shows exactly what I mean. Why should I "sue" you? You are presupposing that just because I wrote a post supporting Lilo and earlier a few posts which said that getting a stranglehold on the Pakis oil supplies (with a huge caveat that they would never agree to this, which proved to be right) that I also don't want a "final solution" to the pestilence that is breeding on our western border.

Remember there are many ways to skin a cat and a shooting war is not the only way. Economic warfare is also a viable option and that can be waged only when there's leverage.

Anyway my last post on this issue. There's too much wind blowing in the opposite direction for a p!!sing contest.

No, I did not accuse you of being wrong. You take the first sentence of my post and go off in a tangent. If you read my post again - what I meant to convey was that when making such proposals ( that appear compromising) , expect all kinds of accusations. Sense the tone of forum and frame your sentences and words accordingly. A lot of people have lost patience with GoI handling of TSP and that is the reason for this short leashes for anything being discussed. You cannot blame them and you cannot play the victim card( which you just did, AGAIN! ) - there are real life victims.
Will post again to explain if needed.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2012 14:21

Lilo wrote: Its as simple as that.

Well its not that simple unfortunately, often the message and the messenger mix. It should not happen but it does. Recently on Siachen discussion ShauryaT, someone whom I know to be a "uber hawk" given his prior views (unless he has changed) -- got called a number of things because he was trying to explore Brig Kanwal's suggestions.

To be honest those were still quite less "dangerous" than some of the proposals here, and came from a poster with a long standing reputation of taking a hard stand against Pakistan. Still.

So yes shouldn't happen, but happens. Try and look beyond it. We are all human and communication remains a issue on message board like systems.

I think you must not take the hostility personally and think why such plans lead to such hostile reactions. BRF posters are not nuts, there are very wise people saying what they are. Kindly consider.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2012 14:26

Neela wrote:If you read my post again - what I meant to convey was that when making such proposals ( that appear compromising) , expect all kinds of accusations. Sense the tone of forum and frame your sentences and words accordingly.

In other words you mean to say that you better not get out of the group think mode because if you do then tough luck mate, you get what you deserve!

Sorry you proved exactly what I was saying and I see you didn't understand the difference Ravi made between "discussion" and "dialogue".

As for playing the victim card rest assured I'm not such a sissy. I've been called many things in my years on this forum, the more amusing ones being accused of being the son of some Congress honcho, to being a card member of that party to having lost my "moral compass". You you know what? "No, shit Sherlock, I couldn't care less!"

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 01 Jun 2012 14:29

Hi,
I am finding this very interesting and we really ought to do a cold blooded analysis of what each one's points are.
Anyone up for a red vs blue analysis /game and do a coherent pro vs con study?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 01 Jun 2012 14:39

amit wrote: As for playing the victim card rest assured I'm not such a sissy. I've been called many things in my years on this forum, the more amusing ones being accused of being the son of some Congress honcho, to being a card member of that party to having lost my "moral compass". You you know what? "No, shit Sherlock, I couldn't care less!"

+100 amitji, and thats my spirit too.

Sanku ji i have been on BRF for a long time ( though my post count doesnt show for it). So no one need to worry about that.

Kapilji,
Whats the topic?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 01 Jun 2012 14:53

Does it occur to anyone that we could be walking into a booby trap setup by the usual suspects?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 01 Jun 2012 14:55

amit wrote: In other words you mean to say that you better not get out of the group think mode because if you do then tough luck mate, you get what you deserve!

No!
There are no other words.
Those are your inferences because you are not takign what I wrote at face value and you see with tinted glasses.
Stop fragging!
I said, frame your words in such a way that the audience receives it and learn to sense the tone and pulse of the forum. This is standard practice! Everywhere! And yes the "group-think mode" words used will not win you any friends here.( Please do not start off with "I am not here to win friends" ).

Sorry you proved exactly what I was saying and I see you didn't understand the difference Ravi made between "discussion" and "dialogue".

No I understood all along. You were the one accusing the members of this forum of being caustic in remarks first. And I said, there is a reason for that - and reason being that people have lost faith in GoI policy wrt TSP - this makes any attempt at trade be seen as a compromise.
I think I have explained this a few times and you deliberately choose to ignore TSP and start a sob story.
And like I said earlier...stop fragging.