Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

a prahaar test is long overdue
PratikDas
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

nikhil_p wrote:We can expect a couple more raakit loonches in near future including one nos cruze mijjile, development test of mbrl (dont know what further development on an accepted system!) and test of one nos of short sam.
A test of Nirbhay in a few days or weeks, not months, would be very timely for promoting bhaichara with Pakistan.
koti
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

Two more Akash Missiles test fired today. And both are successful. :)
Link
member_19648
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_19648 »

koti wrote:Two more Akash Missiles test fired today. And both are successful. :)
Great news!!! Glitches while testing missile systems are very common and people concerned don't really get hyper over them, as they can be corrected and only go on improving the system. Tests are done to validate the efficacy and rectify faults even post induction, but it is saddening to see these jokers comment on leading dailies about how misfortune has struck Akash if one test has failed. Its time they grow up!
SaiK
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

can someone point out akash differences in air force version vs. army one?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by srai »

SaiK
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

http://www.akashsam.com/launchers.htm
OK: it is all about launchers, for various modes.
pankajs
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

The Hindu report on the last Akash test
Two Akash missiles destroy targets
Varoon Shekhar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

^^^
Good article, but check the comments. Why are people so uninformed? It's like advertising your ignorance.
SaiK
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

we need to hear tests done against targets at intended design speeds. I am sure lakshya is not.

pehaps akash could target another approching missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

that was an excellent video of akash! good going. the impact direct head on it appears.

check it out off BR main.
SriniY
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SriniY »

Looks like the Javelin sale to India is under the scanner.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/06/ ... cloud.html
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kartik »

What was the number of Javelins that the IA sought initially?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vic »

The curb would be prevent India manufacturing large number of Javelin Missiles after getting the technology. The India would be to sell missiles + Technology and then to prevent India from using the said technology.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

TOT was never part of the deal nor was lic manuf it in India ....we wanted x amount of Javelin ATGM and now it has been slashed to half based on State Dept concerns.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

Austin wrote:TOT was never part of the deal nor was lic manuf it in India ....we wanted x amount of Javelin ATGM and now it has been slashed to half based on State Dept concerns.
Yes.

Cross-posting from the LCA thread:
SaiK wrote:I see how we can get motivated and perform: we now need some extreme tech denials for core engine tech.
The next job for the Nag team and RCI should to be to reduce all the electronics of the Nag, apart from the sensor, down to one chip to be manufactured in large scale.

The Nag missile supposedly already has a composite case, but this too might shed some weight with the latest tech from Agni V.
Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

US is very careful using +ve and -ve measures that indian armour, artillery and mobility is kept under 'control' and does not reach overwhelming levels wrt to TSP.
who else would have reached out and supplied 100s of 155mm SP guns ?
Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

PratikDas wrote:
Austin wrote:TOT was never part of the deal nor was lic manuf it in India ....we wanted x amount of Javelin ATGM and now it has been slashed to half based on State Dept concerns.
Yes.

Cross-posting from the LCA thread:
SaiK wrote:I see how we can get motivated and perform: we now need some extreme tech denials for core engine tech.
The next job for the Nag team and RCI should to be to reduce all the electronics of the Nag, apart from the sensor, down to one chip to be manufactured in large scale.

The Nag missile supposedly already has a composite case, but this too might shed some weight with the latest tech from Agni V.
I think Nag fuel if reduced can reduce the weight to around ~ 25KG to 28 KG with reduced range of around 2500 MM, only thing rather than being only top attack, it should also be able to go for direct line of fire.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ashish raval »

^^ Hillary and panetta are double faced individuals. They both hate India and sees India as a competitor. India should realise that no one in this world is your friend especially if you follow a different religion, race, colour, philosophy, way of life and have a different world view than others. The only way out of it is to make so emerge so strong that others follow your country. A classic example is Israel. Americans are empire builders of 20th and 21st century. Only Russia, china and India can stop them now of which India is at a strategic location and can help push democracy into china having failed using pacific. Chinese string of pearls is like peanuts. Us has created buffer of countries right from Europe to Japan and it seems only few countries remain out of its reach to strangle china. I.e. India, Iran, pakis to some extent, Myanmar, Laos etc. shanghai cooperation organisation was one such move to counter American strangle but it seems toothless on the outset.
India is just a small elephant in the Asian chess board game and will be given weapons that are fine for defence and some offensive capability.
To change this status quo, Government of India should sell the missile technology to the engineering giants like lnt, tata and other private companies on certain national security conditions that only Indian born scientists and engineers from this companies will work in these projects and help improve and create next generation of missiles which GoI can then evaluate in global tendors. If drdo is unable to create a javelin equivalent it is foolish to assume that other engineering companies will not.
To get best missiles and technology quickly we need private players in the field or at least create several competiting laboratories and private players just like other countries do.
It is funny to assume or fear that drdo will have more attrition than now if private players are in. There is no reason for this argument if government offers superior pension, housing, health, housing and decent salary compared to private players.
SaiK
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

In certain ways I look, this would be a good trigger to babooze, and would be hard pressing DRDO's own javelin rather seek technology and get denied. After being successful in many technology denial projects, I am sure Javelin would not be something that could be categorized on the lines of turbojet engines.

after all, that may be the end game plan as well.. deny the Indians, and check out their capabilities. I think I have done my share in requesting home-grown javelin shivlin.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

SriniY wrote:Looks like the Javelin sale to India is under the scanner.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/06/ ... cloud.html

"The best is the enemy of good" especially when its not available.

Dont know if the procurement guys are congenital idiots who always pick stuff that is subject to US sanctions or if they get instructions/requirements to do so?

Recall the LCA flight controls fiasco and so on. Learning from own mistakes is a sign of a evolving organization. Learning from others mistakes is even better.

But one that makes repeated mistakes is on a downward spiral.

If they had made know the preferrecne fo the Spike then the US would itself have made the Javelin more available. By getting into de-facto sole source situation (hits ten out of ten and fan boy reviews before the negotiators get their say) they have given the us a chance to dictate terms

A needless friction point was created.
Surya
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Surya »

before we beat up our babus where was this department when 1000s of Amraams and harpoons and Tows were being sold to the Fizzle ya


When they need it they trot this dept out as if it is very independent - all BS


and to top it up there is an article which claims our policy makers drive the US crazy


Oh really!!!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

^^^^
I'd like to offer some (unconnected) thoughts regarding this recent issue with the US Javelins......

I'm not entirely surprised. Americans are known to do this kind of thing; whether as a contest of personalities, political parties, stupid policy, entrenched thinking in DoS or DoD, or whatever...... none of that matters. The result is the same.

Americans seek control over others. They really don't care about India's defense.

The Javelins are a peculiar system in that they can be used (cheaply) to asymetrically counter a much more expensive armoured threat. Being man-portable, they are inherently more "expeditionary" than are their intended targets, which means they have inherent offensive capability. This should have been obvious to everyone, right from the start, and I thought it was, as it should have been.

So, when the sale was announced, I felt like this was an American demonstration of their commitment to a secure India.
I had hopes (silly me!) that this was a part of a new India/US dispensation. Well, it wasn't.

Thank the IAF and Indian MoD that the MMRCA winner wasn't American!

&&&&&&

The other thought I'd like to share........ I don't believe for a moment that all of the military hardware the Americans have shipped into "AfPak" has truly been destined for Afghan operations. Believe you me, there is a back-room, under-the-table, hush-hush, totally-black arrangement to transfer American arms to the Pakistanis, as a "price of doing business". I cannot for one moment imagine the Pakistanis keeping mum on the side of the road as truckload after truckload of military wares rolls-by; without demanding or otherwise arranging that a truck goes astray here, falls-off the road there, has an "accident" or is "burned by the Taliban". Heck, since they control the port, they can divert containers and pallets like the Sopranos in Port Newark (the way the mafia steals, in bulk).

One of the questions that needs to be asked, is how many Javelins have been "lost" en route to deployment with US forces in Afghanistan? What else has gone a similar route? Where are these arms now? (Don't even try to tell me that there was no looting of those burned-out trucks. Nobody fights a guerilla war like that!)

JMGF (Just my gut feeling)

&&&&&&&

I strongly suggest that the IGMDP be re-started on a limited basis to produce the following:

==>> A man-portable system superior to the US Javelin, which we can expect is in the TSP's armoury;
==>> Designated ASAT systems (air-launched and ground launched);
==>> A micro-satellite launching system (to replace satellites destroyed during conflict, to re-establish basic military capabilities), and;
==>> A very small A2A missile meant to be fired backward from fighter aircraft engaged in close air combat (perhaps designed as a conformal pod attached to the topside of inventoried aircraft, and operated completely automatically to counter rearward threats, thereby drastically enlarging the 'kill envelope').


JMT
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Gurneesh »

^^^^ Apparently weapons are not sent through Pakistan...
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

I am sure, condomistan must be happy in a sense, that they may see some hyphenation by some means now. Offensive weapon systems from unkill should not be considered at all!

I think, this is not about bashing babooze.. but it is all about energizing them in the game they are only aware of.. i.e., reactive approach to issues. they need baseline stories to begin projects.. a tech denial is a fantastic story line to begin with.

There are ton of babooze, who have no clue as to all these, what it means.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Gurneesh wrote:^^^^ Apparently weapons are not sent through Pakistan...
It was during the 2002-2009 period.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by AdityaM »

Akash flew at 2.5 Mach and intercepted a target flying at 0.47 Mach.
What will they use to simulate a faster target?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

AdityaM wrote:Akash flew at 2.5 Mach and intercepted a target flying at 0.47 Mach.
What will they use to simulate a faster target?
Another Akash rigged to fly a predetermined trajectory?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

if Akash is meant as bubble defence for airbases and army units, wouldnt any attacking plane attempting to fire off missiles, PGM or iron bombs need to be subsonic to release weapons. afaik only the Mig25(at high level) and raptor are cleared to release A2G weapons at supersonic speed?

if its unable to tackle planes flying at supersonic speed, its ability to lay traps and catch attackers in-transit would be impacted ofcourse...but I doubt thats the case.

low level supersonic crossing targets will however definitely lessen the engagement zone of any SAM system.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Indranil »

It is much more difficult to intercept a slow highly maneuverable target than a supersonic target which cannot change directions quickly and hence continues on a predictable path.

If I am not wrong, they do tests against simulated electronic targets for maneuvers which cannot be emulated.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

the tests being done perfectly mimic a Babur GLCM probably
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

You got it.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

In the West its amazing if you get to work on generation of a strat missile. In DRDO folks who joined in the IGMP initially have worked on three to five generations of strat missile!!!!

Eg Saraswat: Valiant, Prithvi, Agni TDS->Agni II, Agni III, Agni IV and Agni V and not to mention the PAD and AAD!!!!

these are truly missile gurus.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

AdityaM wrote:Akash flew at 2.5 Mach and intercepted a target flying at 0.47 Mach.
What will they use to simulate a faster target?
Older stocks of Moskit?
Or Styx perhaps?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

indranilroy wrote:It is much more difficult to intercept a slow highly maneuverable target than a supersonic target which cannot change directions quickly and hence continues on a predictable path.

If I am not wrong, they do tests against simulated electronic targets for maneuvers which cannot be emulated.
I don't doubt anything you've said. You're usually on the money :) But to add to what you've said, what about a supersonic target which CAN change directions quickly, like the Brahmos? If we can kill that, we can kill anything, even a Babur confused about its orientation. Am I right?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^

Back in 2007/2008, Selex Galileo MIRACH 100/5 target drones were extensively employed for Akash testing. Check out the specs on it.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Air Force version of 'Akash' missile successfully test fired
India today successfully test fired its indigenously developed surface-to-air 'Akash' missile of Air Force version from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur near here, the fifth trial of the anti-aircraft system in the last fortnight.

"The Air Force version of Akash missile was test-fired from the ITR. The trial was successful and met all the mission objectives," a senior defence official said.

The anti-aircraft missile, with a strike range of 25 km and capable of carrying warhead of 60 kg, was test fired from a mobile launcher at launch complex-III of the ITR.

The trial, which formed part of the country's routine air defence exercises, was conducted at 0757 hrs, an official of Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) associated with the Akash missile project said.

To re-validate the technology and operational efficacy of the missile, defence forces conducted the trial with logistic support provided by the ITR, the official said. The Akash weapon system, which has its Army version too, was inducted into the armed forces in 2008.

Today's test-fire came after similar trials conducted from the same test range on May 24, 26, 28 and June 1. On June 1, two Air force version of Akash missiles had been test fired successfully in quick succession, the official said.

"During the trial, the sophisticated missile was aimed at intercepting floating object supported by a pilotless target aircraft at a definite altitude over the sea," defence sources said.

Akash, an anti-aircraft defence system, can simultaneously engage several targets with 'Rajendra' radar developed by the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), a DRDO laboratory in Bangalore.

'Rajendra' does the surveillance, tracks the target, acquires it and guides the missile towards it.

The development of Akash missile took place during 1990s under the country's Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) and after many trials, it was inducted into the armed forces.

The DRDO has developed both the Air Force and Army versions of the Akash missile.

Rajendra is a 'passive phased array radar'. It is a multifunction radar, capable of tracking as many as 64 targets and controlling up to 12 missiles simultaneously.

Defence experts have often compared Akash missile system with the American MIM-104 Patriot surface-to-air missile system.

They claim that similar to the MIM-104, the Akash is capable of neutralising aerial targets such as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), fighter jets, cruise missiles and air-to-surface missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_20453 »

I think a MK- 2 version of Lakshya should be developed pronto, with a higher top speed of around mach 0.98, should be maneuverable upto 9g and fly as low as 3 to 5 m.

In order to simulate faster targets, it's easier to convert massive fleet of existing soon to be phased out Mig-21s and Mig-23s a few hundred would be easily converible into QF-drones just for testing Astra, Akash, MR-SAM and even Spyder ADS.

Wondering what happened to Spyder ADS, has it already been inducted? Deliveries should have commenced 2011 but not a word since the order was placed.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

WHile Laksya with Higher top speed is being developed, Mirach drones should be used for Supersonic and low altitude intercept testing.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

I think the IAF and Army, DRDO also can afford to test a lot of Akash, since the cost of the Missile is pretty less and most of cost of the weapon system going towards 3DCAR GCC, BSS, BLR radar, carrier Vehicles, launch vehicles, resupply vehicles etc. Thats why they conspicously didnt put a seeker ont he missile itself to keep the costs down.
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