Indian Naval Discussion

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 04 Jun 2012 16:50

I still Advocate Selling INS Rajput and INS Rana to Vietnam in a Hot Condition with the 8xBrahmos, Barak 1 & Dhanush.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 04 Jun 2012 16:57

AbhiJ wrote:I still Advocate Selling INS Rajput and INS Rana to Vietnam in a Hot Condition with the 8xBrahmos, Barak 1 & Dhanush.

They have money for buying new ships and they have Russian Yakhont already.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 04 Jun 2012 17:03

3d June, Tarkash (bearing Russian temporary pennant) and Trikand.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 04 Jun 2012 22:39

SNaik wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:I still Advocate Selling INS Rajput and INS Rana to Vietnam in a Hot Condition with the 8xBrahmos, Barak 1 & Dhanush.
They have money for buying new ships and they have Russian Yakhont already.

Other than the two Gepards (which are corvettes not frigates) what have they bought? I still think they should invest in 4 more Gepards and 3 Talwars. If they can afford it that is.

Ah..I was wrong looks like they are investing in 4 sigma class corvettes. I don't like the armament fit on these boats but better than what they have currently.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jun 2012 23:24

The Russians plan to build a new series of DDG about 10,000-12000t.Any pics of the design?

John · Post by **John** » 05 Jun 2012 06:02

Bheeshma wrote:Ah..I was wrong looks like they are investing in 4 sigma class corvettes. I don't like the armament fit on these boats but better than what they have currently.

It depends on customer specifications Indonesia is building larger version, the Frigate version of Sigma (still smaller than our P28) is quite well armed.

maz · Post by **maz** » 05 Jun 2012 07:44

Recent pix such as http://www.flickr.com/photos/albireo200 ... otostream/would suggest the Teg class have MTK 201M2.2 EO sensors instead of Sfera-2.

Snaik, do you concur?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Jun 2012 08:12

Excellent cutaway drgs. of Israel's German Dolhin N-missile subs here.It would be good to compare the design with the Scorpene and Lada/Amur,U-212/214 too.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 59067.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 36784.html

Bheesh,Good idea,but I don't think that the Vietnamese Navy is at this time able to operate DDGs,which is why they're going in for smaller frigates,corvettes and subs.Selling/Giving them some of our naval/SS missiles like Prithvi/Dhanush,etc. would be an excellent move to give them more teeth to back of the PRC.

wig · Post by **wig** » 05 Jun 2012 16:32

vice admiral D K Joshi to be new Navy chief

The government on Tuesday cleared the appointment of Vice Admiral D K Joshi, the present Western Naval Command chief, as the new Navy chief after Admiral Nirmal Verma retires on August 31. Vice-Admiral Joshi, a specialist in anti-submarine warfare, had assumed command of the Western Naval Command in May last year.

Vice Admiral Joshi, who has also commanded the tri-Service Andaman and Nicobar Island command in the past, has commanded the guided-missile corvette INS Kuthar, guided-missile destroyer Ranvir and the country's solitary aircraft carrier INS Viraat during his long career. A graduate of the Naval War College, USA, he is also an alumnus of the College of Naval Warfare, Mumbai and National Defence College, New Delhi.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 844981.cms

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 05 Jun 2012 20:03

http://idrw.org/?p=11877

glimpse of our next-gen SSBN S-5 from DRDO

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Jun 2012 20:34

^^^

I hope that the drawing is the imagination of the reporter, rather then an actual SSBN design that the IN designers are working at.

The flow noise of water over the turtle deck will be a killer in this boat.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jun 2012 20:57

According to Sengupta the image came from NPOL brochure.

The SSBN image was suppose to be Delta 5 a further evolution of Delta 4 ssbn

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jun 2012 21:23

Philip, Slowly curtain is rising on Israel nuke capability.

nash · Post by **nash** » 05 Jun 2012 21:29

arijitkm wrote:http://idrw.org/?p=11877

glimpse of our next-gen SSBN S-5 from DRDO

He mention S-5 for new gen SSBN and S-1,2,3 for arihant class SSBN ..where is S-4...or its just they miss the number...

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Jun 2012 21:32

As far as deployment is concerned, I think it is S-2,3,4. So the next gen would start as S-5.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Jun 2012 21:34

nash wrote:He mention S-5 for new gen SSBN and S-1,2,3 for arihant class SSBN ..where is S-4...or its just they miss the number...

S-1 was the land based reactor at Kalpakkam...so, its S-2 onwards.

No news on the supposed indegenous SSNs of the future to complement the SSBNs?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2012 22:16

that shape may look a bit ugly but is the only logical progression of Arihant design to accomodate a longer SLBM.
the key q being can we or should we got for a giant SLBM like RSM-54 SINEVA or something more compact like Trident/M51/Bulava? can we cut the curve and close the gap seeing we started last on this?

length will determine sleek Borei/Le Troimphant looks or boxy Jin/Delta shape.

nash · Post by **nash** » 05 Jun 2012 22:19

If the future S-5 as per report are much longer and can have launch tubes from 12-16, which would have SLBM(A-5,6 K-4,5) which can carry let say average of 4 MIRV then single SSBN would have upto 48-64 + war head.

And probably there will S-6 and S-7 also that would push no. upto around 200....Do we have that much of warheads for navy only.

I think may be our nuke submarine would be multi-role - SSBN/SSGN , some launch tube will be spare for sagarika and nirbhay.
Even brahmos-I,II for anti ship role or anti-sub role(3M-54 Klub-91RE1) beacause we don't have SSN, apart from INS chakra.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jun 2012 07:29

Israel using German modified T-209 submarine for nuclear deterrence purpose was a known fact for more than a decade , magazines like Naval Forces have carried out many write up on the subject , most professional watcher would know the reasons for having modified 650 mm TT on conventional subs for reasons other than special ops.

Not sure what is the purpose of SPIEGEL carrying out these details now .....perhaps pressurize Israel on Iran issue to keep awake from any strike ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jun 2012 09:12

Singha wrote:that shape may look a bit ugly but is the only logical progression of Arihant design to accomodate a longer SLBM.
the key q being can we or should we got for a giant SLBM like RSM-54 SINEVA or something more compact like Trident/M51/Bulava? can we cut the curve and close the gap seeing we started last on this?

Singha , why do you think if a submarine has a hump it would make a bad sub and if it it does not have one and is sleek it would make a good one ....submarine design and acoustic quietening is much more beyond having hump or looking ugly.

By Russian own shipyard admission , the Delta 4 was more quieter than a Typhoon and carried the most accurate SLBM even though the Delta 4 had hump and was no doubt ugly while the Typhoon had cleaner design , 3 pressure hulls and what not .....the difference was in the order of 10 dB according to general known estimates which is quite a difference.

So even if S-5 turns out to have a hump to wont automatically qualify has bad sub or if it wont have one wont make it a better one.

The S-5 design shown by NPOL so far corresponds to evolution of Delta 4 design called Delta 5 which at some point was considered as logical successor to Delta 4 , here is the model of the same

http://warfare.ru/0702ey70/update/jan2003/4/955.jpg

Note the more streamlines and smoother curve leading to shorter hump and single propeller of the design compared to much bigger hump of Delta 4 and twin prop design

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2012 09:30

my statement was based on all the best western SSBN and the latest Borei going for conventional non-hump shape. the Rus need not have spent so much effort on Borei and Bulava if Delta5 and Sineva++ would suffice.

quieting is one thing, the turbulence generated by a blunt boxy object going through water at high speed is unlikely to be less than a proper streamlined shape. the structural strength and stress mitigation is best given by a round or oval shape without sharp corners probably. with milsats looking for submerged wake turbulence, every advantage of stealth counts.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 06 Jun 2012 09:41

Vik from a few days ago.

Thats a lot of smoke.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2012 09:45

does it powerplant burn diesel or coal to produce steam ? looks like the output of a steam loco...

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jun 2012 09:55

^^ For a second, thought that another fire broke out on Vik going by the pic!!!

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 06 Jun 2012 09:55

Its diesel.

Previously, used to be furnace fuel oil.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2012 09:55

soot on a/c and external eqpt will be a problem if thats the default mode. but I suspect its some "clearing of the pipes" being done there.

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Jun 2012 10:44

Austin wrote:Not sure what is the purpose of SPIEGEL carrying out these details now .....perhaps pressurize Israel on Iran issue to keep awake from any strike ?

Maybe to close the drain of funds to Israeli millitary on this pretext.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jun 2012 11:35

Singha wrote:my statement was based on all the best western SSBN and the latest Borei going for conventional non-hump shape. the Rus need not have spent so much effort on Borei and Bulava if Delta5 and Sineva++ would suffice.

That is a valid point , the revolution in submarine design extends far beyond its shape and it includes the entire end to end engineering aspects , yards that built those , industry that manufacture those equipment ,many design bureaus and R&D org that worked dedicatedly on acoustics , sensors , sonars , non-acoustics etc it took both West and Russia around 60 years to have reached where they are right now and probably hundred of billions of dollars that was sunk including building many unique test submarines.

According to Adm Arun Prakash in his recent article in force , mentioned that it would take India around 50 years to build end to end capability in designing and building N submarines and all its components to catch up with the West/East

quieting is one thing, the turbulence generated by a blunt boxy object going through water at high speed is unlikely to be less than a proper streamlined shape. the structural strength and stress mitigation is best given by a round or oval shape without sharp corners probably. with milsats looking for submerged wake turbulence, every advantage of stealth counts.

Its true that a boxy design would affect the flow noise due to high speed contributing to its over all broadband noise but at low speed those effects are minimal and for an SSBN high speed is not a high priority for them unlike an SSN , they will have to move at slower tactical speed while on deterrent patrol which is fine compromise for SSBN as being discrete is more important for them , the soviets never bothered about having a boxy hump as it evolved frrom Delta 1 to Delta 4 but rather focused on improving its acoustic quality of these subs built over generations and developed accurate SLBM with better throw up weight ...a good compromise and it continues to remain a key part of detterent for next 15 years inspite of newer Borei being available.

Another good reason why China newest Jin class SSBN according to ONI estimates have far worse broadband detectability even compared to Delta 3 SSBN even though Jin has a much curvy hump compared to boxy of Delta 4 , it shows how much has the West/Russia progressed even though they dont have elegant looking subs specially the latter.

http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/i ... bsound.jpg

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 06 Jun 2012 14:31

sum wrote:^^ For a second, thought that another fire broke out on Vik going by the pic!!!

On the Vik's black smoke as per Snake65 (SNaik

) :

"Heat insulation burning, no open fire.

Leaving on 8th June, 2 am."

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jun 2012 15:08

Indian aircraft carrier to go on sailing trial оvernight to June 8

ARKHANGELSK, June 6 (Itar-Tass) —— The aircraft carrier Vikramaditya of the Indian Navy (the former Russian cruiser Admiral Gorshkov), which was modernized at the military shipyard Sevmash in Severodvinsk, will go on a full-scale sailing trial overnight to June 8, spokesperson of the shipyard Anastasia Nikitinskaya told Itar-Tass on Wednesday.

“The program of the sailing trial is intended for 120 days,” she said. “However, this does not mean that the warship will sail in the sea all this time. If some flaws are found she can arrive to the shipyards in Murmansk and Severodvinsk for their elimination,” the Sevmash spokesperson said.

It was reported before that a team of Indian and 350 Russian naval sailors, as well as shipbuilders will conduct the sailing trial. The team will total over 2,000 people. Some 2,350 cabins and other premises are prepared for them onboard the warship. The warship will go on sailing trials in the Barents Sea for first 2-3 weeks. Then the trials of the deck aviation will begin. The trials will take 3.5 months. The aircraft carrier is to be commissioned on December 4, 2012.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2012 16:52

well amazing. did they just take some waste material and burn them in the furnace to clean up the ship for sea trials, warm up some chicken tandoori and vodka ?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Jun 2012 19:57

Austin wrote:Israel using German modified T-209 submarine for nuclear deterrence purpose was a known fact for more than a decade , magazines like Naval Forces have carried out many write up on the subject , most professional watcher would know the reasons for having modified 650 mm TT on conventional subs for reasons other than special ops.

Not sure what is the purpose of SPIEGEL carrying out these details now .....perhaps pressurize Israel on Iran issue to keep awake from any strike ?

Are'nt using a modified Popeye from these 650 mm TT ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jun 2012 21:10

Kersi D wrote:Are'nt using a modified Popeye from these 650 mm TT ?

Kersi , Yes that was hinted by Naval Forces and other magazine that a modified Popeye with range of 1500 km was tested in Indian Ocean region couple of years back.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Jun 2012 21:52

NightWatch

For the Night of 5 June 2012

Japan-India: For the record. India and Japan will hold a two-day joint naval exercise off Tokyo's coast starting 9 June. Indian Navy ships INS Rana, INS Shakti and INS Shivalik are in Tokyo and will join exercises with the Japanese Self-Defense Forces, unnamed Indian navy officials said.

Comment: The Indian Navy's exercises in northeast Asia are part of India's Look East policy developed 20 years ago. The navies of India and the northeast Asian democracies are among the most capable in the world and they regularly exercise together.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 06 Jun 2012 21:58

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2959541.stm

INS Shivalik was built at a cost of $140m and will be commissioned in December 2005.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 06 Jun 2012 22:18

AbhiJ wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2959541.stm

INS Shivalik was built at a cost of $140m and will be commissioned in December 2005.

That article is from 2003, not sure why you dug up an old article!!!

John · Post by **John** » 06 Jun 2012 22:21

Fyi Shivalik cost around 600 million.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 06 Jun 2012 22:41

Ivanev wrote: That article is from 2003, not sure why you dug up an old article!!!

In 2003 - Commissioning Date - 2005

When did it really happen? Wondering About the Planning, Forecast and Management Capabilities?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jun 2012 08:03

The "S-5" pic shows a far more streamlined hull/hump/turtleback than the PLANs SSBNs or Soviet era Deltas.If an entirely smooth hull is required for VL silos,than the hull diameter must also be the same as the length of the missile,or as in the double-hulled Oscars,in inclined position outside the pressure hull.This would significantly increase both the tonnage and the size of powerplant required,not to mention tonnage and costs.The NPOL design shows that a lot of hydrodynamic studies have been done to streamline the hull,sail,etc.

arun · Post by **arun** » 08 Jun 2012 07:00

INS Teg at Hamburg, May 2012. Photographs by Arki Wagner on Ship Spotting.

Can some kind soul post the large pictures as I have only managed to access the middle sized ones?

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