Indian Education System

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jun 2012 22:39

If IITs want to have their version of entrance tests intact, so be it. Why not have an enlarged merit list and non-iits can pick from the same list.

If the idea is to reduce the number of exams a student has to sit for, then IIT-JEE can be left as is, and everyone who wants to do engg/science has to take it, and a 10,000+ merit list created. Dunno how, but it can be done.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jun 2012 08:39

given any exam, even a 'simpler' one like SAT wouldnt there always be a ranking?

if the idea is a common exam thats good, unless the IITs feel this exam would not id the right talent for them? imo as we all know a PCM super high candidate does not always end up as the best candidate...part of the reason why many cos take overall IQ and problem solving tests than domain area tests for freshers.

SAT seems to be doing ok in identifying entrants into the worlds best universities in khanate.

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Jun 2012 10:01

Kahnate is a land of plenty , education sector is no exception. They attract good students and faculty from all over the globe, their universities are resourceful and have endowment sum running into several hundred millions or even billions in case of the IVY league. Heck even the big dawgs in the Indian industry make huge donations to them. With a favourable faculty to student ratio and big industry to soak up all that knowledge it does not matter if SAT/GRE are not even half as tough as JEE or GATE.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 09 Jun 2012 10:06

Singha ji

SAT has no ranking. It is percentile based.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 09 Jun 2012 10:06

problem with iit jee is that questions tend to be clichéd (how many times has the total resistance/capacitance in an infinite ladder of capacitors/resistors been asked? )..practising the previous papers ,irodov , ml khanna and bansals test bank twice can ensure a rank in top 500 ...(also means that only 500 out of the 300k who sit for the exam manage to do as much..) ... so IMHO jee does not exactly test higher intelligence ability ,but tests the ability to work hard for a year or so ...

I d say simplified version of the olympiads would be a better test... selection for iits should be multi stage process..

first stage - A simplified single/multiple response mcq test that tests basic concept..this will screen out the untalented ones from the ones who know the concept...questions will be basic 11/12 standard level ...rankings from this test would also be utilized for non IIT instis ... A minimum 50% score would be necessary to seek admissions anywhere ...if the total number of such students don't match the total number of seats I d rather have the seats remain empty ...

a person who can't do cross product of vectors , calculate the electric field due to discrete point charges , do simple probability questions etc would be screened out of the above test..it can re apply next year however ...

second stage- miniature version of the olympiads ... questions would be scenario based multiple step type ,free response /problems ...

all those who make it in the above would be assured of a seat in IIT/NIT/elite instis..

third stage .. Interest cum aptitude test that will help the candidate decide the branch ..no preparation will be needed for these ...candidates will be given some basic exposure to the branch by preparing a DVD showing what each type of engineer does...that would be followed by aptitude questions and interviews...all fads ,misconceptions regarding a particular branch being good/bad should be removed in this stage..

.A guy with a potential to be a computer scientist may have messed some organic chemistry conversions in the written exam lowering his score ...but CS seats fill up first and chemical engineering seats fill much below CS..So it may happen that due to poor score in organic chemistry the guy ends up getting chemical engineering...that is a paradox...

a process similar to above can ensure that best talent goes to best places..

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Jun 2012 10:10

^ Well JEE has a screening test , which by itself is more tougher than SAT/GRE as for the questions being cliched well GRE takes top honours there, JEE mains is a completely different beast. As for the part about rigorous interview and selection process after the main exam, qualifying for IISC or ISI is even tougher.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 09 Jun 2012 10:12

^ that gone for 5 years...iit no longer has the mains test that was there in our times..

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Jun 2012 10:13

^ You mean JEE is back to single paper format ? In my time we had a screening and then the mains, in any case that does not change anything I have seen the papers when I was preparing for GRE at one time which imho content wise is closer to CAT. The problem is not only is JEE at a different level the number of applicants to seats ratio just kills you.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 09 Jun 2012 10:21

gre/sat are a walk in the park...can't be compared to jee ...

people often that applicant :seat ratio ,but the fact remains that the score distribution remains the same year after year ..

I don't remember the actual distribution ,but lets say topper may get about 80% and 500 ranker may get 70% in the exam ..that varies little year by year ...and question aper pattern and difficulty are similar year after year..

so coaching classes base there strategy on the above fact ...

same is of course true for sat/gre based coaching classes (kaplan etc) ..but as these exams are a lot easier they need much less preparation..jee might need 6-8 hours * 2 years ..sat can be done in 4 hours *2 months ...

>>^ You mean JEE is back to single paper format ?

yup , the change was introduced 3 batches after my class 12th when my brother appeared...courtesy arjun singh i believe ..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Jun 2012 12:53

iitk has declared it will go with its own format and not the new format common to IITs and NITs.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 09 Jun 2012 17:43

gakakkad wrote: A guy with a potential to be a computer scientist may have messed some organic chemistry conversions in the written exam lowering his score ...but CS seats fill up first and chemical engineering seats fill much below CS..So it may happen that due to poor score in organic chemistry the guy ends up getting chemical engineering...that is a paradox...

have to laugh at this...This is exactly what happened to a good friend of mine. He was OK in chemistry and very good at Math, and quite good in physics. His CBSE XII class score in chemistry was his lowest in PCM&B subjects (mid-60s out of 100). He got a JEE rank and ended up doing Chemical Engg. in ITBHU!

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 09 Jun 2012 17:52

It is a pity to see that institutions like IIT's had to depend on the so called "creamy layer" to hold their reputation. Seriously, can't IITs think of shaping an fair student (not essentially bright) into a good academic?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 09 Jun 2012 18:15

>>have to laugh at this...This is exactly what happened to a good friend of mine. He was OK in chemistry and very good at Math, and quite good in physics. His CBSE XII class score in chemistry was his lowest in PCM&B subjects (mid-60s out of 100). He got a JEE rank and ended up doing Chemical Engg. in ITBHU!

it so happens that I was not really that good at biology in my +2 days ..But I was extremely good at physics/math and chemistry ...being a compooter freak on one hand ,and having both parents as doctors made life of this apdool miserable...

it so happens that the all india PMT paper in my time had extremely difficult physics questions (jee level) .. now many medical aspirants don't even take math at +2 level .. They found the physics questions extremely difficult...I was able to answer all of them correctly ...that more than compensated for some biology questions i could not get ...I ended up within first 200 all india ...the girl from my class who was olympiad level at biology did badly and ended up in dentistry...

i made some careless errors in iit jee and my rank was 800+ effectively ruling out any possibility of getting cs/ee ..

generous incentives from dad ensured that I selected medicine ..besides the fact that my school time crush opted for medicine..so.a series of weird coincidences and kaanspiracy from oopar wallah made me a doctor...
this pretty much describes the Yindian admission system...

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 09 Jun 2012 18:58

negi wrote:Kahnate is a land of plenty , education sector is no exception. They attract good students and faculty from all over the globe, their universities are resourceful and have endowment sum running into several hundred millions or even billions in case of the IVY league. Heck even the big dawgs in the Indian industry make huge donations to them. With a favourable faculty to student ratio and big industry to soak up all that knowledge it does not matter if SAT/GRE are not even half as tough as JEE or GATE.

Negi ji, that is absolutely correct. Even the Yale Madrassa in unkil land was funded by the brit turds with huge sums of money robbed at the time while they were deliberately engineering famine in many provinces in India. Lot of that loot, was diverted towards that madrassa, while people were starving . But that apart, there is culture of funding and patronage that sorely lacks in India.

kasthuri wrote:It is a pity to see that institutions like IIT's had to depend on the so called "creamy layer" to hold their reputation. Seriously, can't IITs think of shaping an fair student (not essentially bright) into a good academic?

IITs are sarkari institutions and are monopolies and they do not have effective competition. Their operation is mostly incestuous where they do not spin off other quality educational institutes. To avoid the obvious incestuous nature, they mostly play musical chair by rotating between different IITs and other premier sarkari institutes.

India's private education sector needs to take off in a big way and that will be the way forward. Else education will be like worshiping royalty and VIP culture. Currently there is artificial scarcity and restriction due to rigorous process of elimination rather than true selection. This will only ease up when private education dominates at higher levels. Else, it will lead to comical situation such as: where a premier sarkari institution like ISRO bemoans they now have to venture into education so they can produce graduates who are best fit for their purpose. Just like "kapil sibal's me too device option of "me too educational institutions by sarkari initiative".

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 09 Jun 2012 19:30

JwalaMukhi wrote: IITs are sarkari institutions and are monopolies and they do not have effective competition. Their operation is mostly incestuous where they do not spin off other quality educational institutes. To avoid the obvious incestuous nature, they mostly play musical chair by rotating between different IITs and other premier sarkari institutes.

India's private education sector needs to take off in a big way and that will be the way forward. Else education will be like worshiping royalty and VIP culture. Currently there is artificial scarcity and restriction due to rigorous process of elimination rather than true selection. This will only ease up when private education dominates at higher levels. Else, it will lead to comical situation such as: where a premier sarkari institution like ISRO bemoans they now have to venture into education so they can produce graduates who are best fit for their purpose. Just like "kapil sibal's me too device option of "me too educational institutions by sarkari initiative".

Apart from private sector role, philanthropy and endowments need to take shape. Billions of Rs. are donated to temples annually. I only wish people give them to good research schools (like ISI, IMSc for instance) instead.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 09 Jun 2012 19:45

kasthuri wrote:
Apart from private sector role, philanthropy and endowments need to take shape. Billions of Rs. are donated to temples annually. I only wish people give them to good research schools (like ISI, IMSc for instance) instead.

When the role of the government really becomes entrenched in governance and facilitation then good money can be thrown at other government institutes. The government machinery runs on populist measures with generous catering to special interest groups. There is special treatment to special groups and all the support is provided by the government to cater to such, while placing severe restrictions on natural process of good governance.

Many a temples have survived and thrive because of private enterprise with clearly assigned ownership and roles. Else if it becomes a government administered initiative, they will crumble in time. Public ownership is like no one really owns and is responsible for it. So diverting such donations to any government initiative is like throwing good money on the bad. Government has its own funding mechanism and it should continue.

But private enterprises need avenues where their initiatives (including donating money to other private enterprises) and goals are not stifled by bad governance and interference. What is the shelf life of any government scheme? Could it run for generations?

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 09 Jun 2012 19:53

JwalaMukhi wrote: Many a temples have survived and thrive because of private enterprise with clearly assigned ownership and roles.

Quite true. But there are temples (like tirupati) for instance, which are over and above self-sufficiency and the money gets accumulated only there. It is best if those temples takes initiatives. I know TTD has colleges, but they operate as keep-sake educational system. TTD has a potential to start a prolific research institution (and nobody can stop them, being autonomous), but they will not do so...

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 09 Jun 2012 20:01

GOI spends $ 150 billion+ on socialistic dole schemes ..at the rate the cumulative spending over the next 10 years on subsidies/nrega/commie schemes would be >5 Trillion USD...that would be 15 times the total endowment of all american universities combined ...if GOI got its priorities right it could easily fund its instis properly ...

a decent hr mantree would privatise iits ,but regulate them sufficiently to prevent malpractice ... we need to permit FDI from american univs in India ..it has to be ensured however that only decent amreeki instis are given a share of the indian marker..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Jun 2012 21:25

kasthuri ji, RKM's Vivekananda University is a step in that direction. one of their faculty monks got the maths bhatnagar award last year.

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 09 Jun 2012 21:45

Rahul M wrote:kasthuri ji, RKM's Vivekananda University is a step in that direction. one of their faculty monks got the maths bhatnagar award last year.

Thank you Rahulji. I didn't know such a mission existed. RKM is such an extraordinary institution. I really hope the university reaches international acclaim as time goes by.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 09 Jun 2012 23:20

RKM was at one time trying to get classified as minority institution to deal with the sarkari nonsense and interference. Currently, do not have idea what their status is. If they continue to operate as majority institution then there is a good role model. Else, did they have to reinvent themselves to be classified as minority run instituion?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Jun 2012 23:25

there was major interference by GoWB who tried to put in commie teachers and ABTA union nonsense. I know the issue quite well. at one time WB board threatened to withdraw recognition. RKM applied to CBSE and got an official positive response the very next day. this was in NDA era. WB board realised their mistake and quashed that move.

a minority institution is protected from such monkey business.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 11 Jun 2012 05:36

Analysis on the benefits of a 2-stage selection for IITs. Apparently this was the case a while back and that allowed non MCQ items in the second stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK5zdEFpDYQ

Also see: http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj/jee/

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Jun 2012 02:18

Very nice touching read:

How the JEE Made me

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 13 Jun 2012 20:24

I was looking for something regarding total number of engg graduates and found this.

India awarded about 2.3 lakhs engineering degrees, 20000
engineering masters degrees and about 1000 engineering Ph.Ds in 2006. India’s doctorate
degrees are less than 1% of graduate engineering degrees. The percentages of doctorate
degrees to engineering degrees is much higher for most of the other countries studied (9%
USA, 10% UK, 8% Germany, 3% Korea).

http://casi.sas.upenn.edu/system/files/ ... 1608-1.pdf

Though a bit dated (2008) all numbers will be true largely for today. IITs graduate 10,000 each year or even less. In light of the numbers Sibal for now should just focus on 2 lakh graduates instead of IITs to have a common entrance test. Maybe they already do in AIEEE. Bring these to some common standards as a first course.

IITs should be pressured to do better with their PG/PhD ratios and relevance to Indian needs instead. let them decide whatever they want for an entrance test. IMO, all this is wasted energy in fighting the wrong battles for setting IITs to be on path of true excellence, rather than just a quality UG factory.

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 13 Jun 2012 20:35

^^^ And how many PhD. engineers enter into academia? The goal should be to strengthen the academic profile of the country as a whole. One of the ways is to have a credit based system in undergraduate education which is flexible enough for the students to get used to other streams. Adequate breadth is necessary to sustain interest in acad.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 14 Jun 2012 04:53

Has anybody seen the results of Google Code Jam contest? Not a very good showing from India. Even though the largest number entered into the Qualifying Round the drop off rate is from round to round has been phenomenal leaving nobody in the final round of 25. China entered with 2/3 of India and has 3 and Russia entered with 700 odd and ended with the highest - 6, in the final round. Very interesting stats, if somebody is interested to take a look. The problems are not to be scoffed at.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jun 2012 02:46

www.thehindu.com/education/issues/artic ... epage=true

High on the list of such innovations was the option to develop universities based in cyberspace, Mr. Sibal argued, as it was not feasible to develop U.S.-style graduate colleges that charged $120,000 or more per year.

why do we need to look at $120K types? is it money that drives innovation or applied studies?

what difference does it make when online courses are getting to be free now from yumit and hairbird?

what happened to our own hubs and spokes?> ISRO and EDU setup????

and..

Mr. Pitroda made a plea for “a little patience” as his government grappled with the imperatives of coalition politics in a bid to get India back to a higher growth path.

so, now I see why this is all stage played by con-angrez folks being moles and traitors dealing with moody and s&p to down grade desh credit ratings.. gov is grappling with coalition politics., and what they learned from brits was the only thing they keep doing in every sphere - divide and rule.

why is that we need to pitch, when we can ask ourselves,,, where are we going wrong???

do we need to keep on licking firang foot for this?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Jun 2012 15:52

Commerce /Arts colleges in this country are rated based on Farticles like these.

'St Stephen's College is like a medallion on the chest'

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Jun 2012 22:02

harbans wrote:Very nice touching read:

How the JEE Made me

Beautiful one..Thanks for psoting, Harbans-ji.

Amazing as to the kind of high-powered friends circle these guys must be having ( each of the guy referenced in the blog seems to be a honcho).

Am guessing would be similar for for many BRF maulaners like RB, Anujan etc.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jun 2012 20:12

In maasa, this new system is getting wider support among many states. parents as triggers to fire under performing teachers. I am sure such powers would enable better dhoti and saadee shiver values. But our problems may be entirely to do with systemic failure aspects of looking at applied learning process.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 20 Jun 2012 04:40

Sibal has backed down from his idiotic proposal to muck up the IIT entrance system, but is still holding out for some kind of "reform".

http://in.news.yahoo.com/sibal-offers-t ... 42669.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jun 2012 09:23

it seems all india PMT results online councelling process was hacked or manipulated to award plum seats to selected lower level candidates. a girl with rank 692 did not get her first choice but was given a diploma course.

another new low in the system.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 21 Jun 2012 21:31

Kapil Sibal bares the secret to why he's fiddling with India's most successful brand - the IITs. He wants to change examination standards so more girls get in, the exam is less 'elitist' and the 'school system is strengthened' !!!!??

The old IIT entrance test format is for the rich: Kapil Sibal

Is there any institution in the country these jokers have not destroyed with their grubby paws ?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 21 Jun 2012 22:18

I cannot see it as an entirely bad move. If people in large numbers are running away to Kota to prepare for IIT entrance abandoning regular plus2 there is a point in that school system itself will get weakened.

During a recent conversation on US school system, someone who resides in California mentioned the public school system there is bad. But that could be because in urban areas the rich middle class have put their kids in private schools, the end result is a lowering of overall standards. It is a chicken and egg problem.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 22 Jun 2012 00:24

A current IIT-K undergraduate provides an incisive analysis of the MHRD proposal and the realities on the ground (as of today, IITK and IITD are set to go their own way)

http://goo.gl/6Yxgu (part 1) , http://goo.gl/zWEHd (part 2), and http://goo.gl/d48qV (part 3)

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 22 Jun 2012 08:27

What I'm seeing is that the top students are going for IIT-JEE or PMT exams and the basic sciences of physics, chemistry, and mathematics are getting 2nd or 3rd rate students. Engineering and medicine without advancement/research in the basic sciences is a disaster. It may explain why India can not progress on its heavy lift boosters and high speed jet turbine.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jun 2012 08:37

It may also explain difficulties we are facing with any precision engineering and production setup. How many Microsofts, Intels, Ciscos, GEs, etc our IITians created? to just list a few.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 Jun 2012 09:19

Bade wrote:I cannot see it as an entirely bad move. If people in large numbers are running away to Kota to prepare for IIT entrance abandoning regular plus2 there is a point in that school system itself will get weakened.

And lowering IIT Entrance standards is a solution you agree with to this issue ?? That's bizarre logic.

Presumably you are not from the IITs - but this move will destroy what is probably the only remaining Nehruvian success story.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 22 Jun 2012 19:28

Who is talking of lowering IIT standards. Your deduction of who is an IITian and not makes even less sense than what Sibal is attempting.

So how do you increase standards by filling up IITs with heavily coached students ? Bizzare to say the least !

Plus two attendance is important to keep overall standards high, which needs good students in the mix attending and participating in classes. It also raises the bar for the less talented. This is critical because the lesser talented who may not make it to the IITs (remember 2 lakh vs 10,000) is part of work force for the country, even more than the cream.

IITs are going to get their autonomous test (2nd one called advanced) so one can ask, isn't this just the JEE for the filtered 50,000 or so who are allowed to take it following the main exam in the proposed scheme. Of course, this means coaching will still be rampant and you did see in sibal's response, he gave a yes or no type answer to that question when queried.

Things that does not make sense are the following,
1) how girls can benefit necessarily from this scheme and why that is important beyond a point.
2) How exactly is the diverse grading/marking of various boards going to be used, as a threshold cut after sufficient weights added to make it more uniform or in the ranking itself. I would have objections to using it for final ranks to make it less biased, but no harm in using it for filtering initially.