Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Jun 2012 17:58

In the period before the war there were 4 people who does " rayabharam" - 2 for each side. It starts with the purohitha of Drupada, Sanjaya, Lord Sri Krishna and lastly Uluooka ( Shakuni's son) and then there is war. Each person behaves in a particular way from which we all can learn a lot. It is truely said there is nothing which is not there in Mahabharatha as for as learning goes.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 09 Jun 2012 20:35

I need some help from the learned people here. Which is the best English translation of Vedas (all 4 of them) which is closer to the Sanskrit version and not witzel/doniger type ? I have read in other threads that Griffith's is also not recommended.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 12 Jun 2012 01:12

I am going to be cross-posting this in a few forums. Please see this appeal for monetary support from the "Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute" in Mylapore, Chennai - to revive Sanskrit. Forwarding it from Rajeev Srinivasan's tweet. Mylapore is also the home of the Sanskrit College, a renowned institution.

http://rajeev.posterous.com/an-appeal-f ... i-research

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Jun 2012 04:56

Continuing something from Indian Interests thread.

RamaY wrote:they ignore the fact that Buddha indeed took many sishyas to propagate his world-view, which happened to deny Veda-pramaana.

Buddha did not deny the Vedas but did not accept its supremacy either. Why this was done by the Buddha, for that you will have to go back to the times he lived in. By this logic, why should someone accept the Arya Samaj for it denies the Sagun Brahman - the most dominant mode of worship. You can now take the teachings of every guru and find objection. No one book or method or guru is supreme is a core idea. This is why I am opposed to even some of the sem church like institutions we have (will not name them). This varied and liberal co-existence of thoughts and processes has always been the case. The question always was can it be assimilated?

Also, another aspect was Buddha’s message was strictly in the practical and realistic but spiritual realm as he saw them, not in the realm of the Agamas or Shastras, which are codified laws for a certain era. In that sense, these were not world views but his expositions on Adhyatma Vidya.

By this logic what is wrong with some one declaring Muhammed being the 10th avataara, after all Islam is codified ~200 after Muhammed and it has better historical proof (by being closer in history). Perhaps this way we can make WANA part of Bharata Varsha.

The lack of homogeneity in SD may be admitted. But this lack is not, however, the main problem. SD allows a unity in which the principle of diversity finds full place. In SD, different eras and communities followed their own customs and usages. True, there are certain dominant ideas and values and it is these dominant ideas and values that shall be used to demarcate SD from other but there was no forced conformity. In SD, the problem has never been of diverse thought streams and customs. But after the advent of Islam, the problem has been and is of inassimilable elements.

There is a lot of difference (hastimaSakAntara bhEdam = like an elephant and mosquito) between accepting Buddhism as Indic-dharma and making it the foundation of Bharat as BR/JLN duo did with Constitution of Independent India in 1947. That hasn't helped Bharat in the past 60 years and will not in the future. If and when Bharat will develop its next constitution, it is in the interests of Bharat and the world that the new constitution is based on Sanatana Dharmic principles and not some Indic-faith, however Indic it may be.

This is actually a far simpler task (relative to a theological process) with many, many agamas to guide us in this venture. All we have to do is dust off a few of them, remove our deracinations and adapt these to our current needs. We should not let a western influenced understanding of Buddhism vis-à-vis Hinduism win. This way, someone will now way Sikhism is a different religion. You can debate many ways on the matter of being a “religion” but SD adherents should recognize that even if Sikhism does not recognize the supremacy of ANYTHING, it is something that can be assimilated in the common thoughts and ideals of SD. Nastika (those who do not recognize the supremacy of the Vedas) are as much a part of SD as Aastika traditions.

Below is my understanding on the matter written a couple of months back, maybe others can provide their views.

(1) All the schools emphasize that the philosophy must have a positive impact on life of man. The schools have a general agreement on the importance of the Purushartha. All the schools agree that the philosophy should help man in realizing the main ends of human life: the purusharthas, i.e. artha, kama, dharma and moksha. (2) All the systems reflect that the philosophy should lead a man from darkness and ignorance to light and knowledge. (3) There is a general agreement among the systems that the truth and reality should be verifiable. They should be substantiated with reasoning and experience. An experience may be sensory, conceptual or intuitional. (4) It is accepted by all the schools that man’s suffering results from his ignorance. Man can conquer ignorance and attain total freedom (moksha) in this bodily existence. (5) There is a general agreement on man’s essential spirituality.

Now if someone can make a case that the composite of the Koran, Sunnah or any such core aheres to the above, I have no issues making Muhammad the 10th Avatar. But I suspect, I shall not be convinced in this life at least.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jun 2012 05:17

shauryaTji

Do you want to believe that Buddhism (I do not Understand how/why you want to separate Buddha from Buddhism) is Vedic in thought, approach and sampradaya?

That is a good stretch of imagination I would say and will leave it that. There is little one can do in matters of belief and faith.

The problem I see on this forum is that everyone feels very comfortable to use Islam, Christianity, Budhism, secularism, communism and what not as a social, political and cultural tool but not SD.

That in my humble opinion is indication of underlying prejudice.

Assuming all religions are equally dogmatic, suppressive and genocidal why not be proud of our Hindu culture, history and origins?

I do not want to debate on this much at this point. Thanks.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Jun 2012 05:26

RamaY wrote:
The problem I see on this forum is that everyone feels very comfortable to use Islam, Christianity, Budhism, secularism, communism and what not as a social, political and cultural tool but not SD.

That in my humble opinion is indication of underlying prejudice.

I am trying to figure this out.
I have some clues that the Indian text books after 1960s have been slowly injected with hate SD/indian social order.

Indian media is also been affected.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Jun 2012 07:05

RamaY ji: On the question of Buddhism, we can discuss some other time. On the rest of the matter, there is a new thread that RajeshA ji has started, maybe you should contribute there. One thing to expound on is, what is this social and political hinduism like? I believe, there is ignorance on the matter and all can benefit from your views on them.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jun 2012 07:16

Will check that ShauryTji.

Watching Babruwahana movie. Few notes

1. Arjuna went to Manipura (today's Manipur or Burma) during his tirthayatras. His son with Chitrangada is Babruwahana.
2. Few kingdoms stood away from MB war. Key characters are Balarama, Rukmi (rukmini's brother) and Babruwahana.
3. Note to self - need to read Aswamedha Parva to know the kingdoms that survived MB war.
4. Dharmaraja had another son - Vrushakesi who survived MB war.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 13 Jun 2012 01:45

Is there a version of Mahabharatha that has the original text, prati-padartha, and prose transaltion in English?

I know there is one from BORI but it is very large (21 volumes each around 1200 pages). It gives all the different versions with copious amount of notes - too detailed for me - probably good for scholars who are doing research. If nothing is available, I might go for that, but I am not sure whether that is still being published though.

TIA

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Jun 2012 01:48

^ If you can read telugu, I found Kappagantula Laxmana Sastry's version on Archive.org good. They dont have all Parvas. Each Parva goes 3-500 pages.

I highly recommend reading it in your mother tongue.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jun 2012 02:10

RamaY, In MCS commentary he makes some remarks about Draupadi. Can you elaborate for the sake of members here?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 13 Jun 2012 06:47

RamaY wrote:^ If you can read telugu, I found Kappagantula Laxmana Sastry's version on Archive.org good. They dont have all Parvas. Each Parva goes 3-500 pages.

I highly recommend reading it in your mother tongue.

RamaY garu
Yes I can read in Telugu. I will try that.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 13 Jun 2012 10:18

TTD ushasri mahabarathan is small one and ok. I have one english one i do not know who wrote it. some 5000 pages. If you want I can email it to you. Pls let me know.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jun 2012 19:29

Whats the title? I would like to have an email copy.

ramana

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Jun 2012 21:19

Narayana Rao wrote:TTD ushasri mahabarathan is small one and ok. I have one english one i do not know who wrote it. some 5000 pages. If you want I can email it to you. Pls let me know.

Ushasri MB is useful only to learn the story. It is very diluted one.

I recommend people to pick a version they want from this list - http://www.avkf.org/BookLink/view_subje ... ?cat_id=30

For a sincere reader, it is always recommended to read verbatim translation of Vyasa Bharatam. Kavitrayam (Nannaya, Tikkana, Errana) diluted it a little bit based on their contemporary cliches.

JMHO

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 13 Jun 2012 23:03

Narayana Rao wrote:TTD ushasri mahabarathan is small one and ok. I have one english one i do not know who wrote it. some 5000 pages. If you want I can email it to you. Pls let me know.

NR garu

If the English one is by Ganguly, I have that on my kindle. What I am really after is a verbatim translation of vEda vyAsa's original (or a recension (sic)) there off. Since I don't know sanskrit other than the words that are in telugu, and since I already know the story in some detail through Rajaji's MB, and another prose translation in Telugu I read sometime back (plus all the old Telugu movies

), I would like to read a side-by-side translation so that I can pick up more Sanskrit as well as the story as close to original (?) as possible.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jun 2012 01:19

Was listening to a commentary on Ramayana in Telugu. The commentator points out that Hanuman and his troupe was told the direction to look for Sita by a large bird Sampat. Sampat was the elder brother of Jatayu. When Jatayu tried to reach for the sun (recall Hanuman also did), he spread his wings to protect him and thus got his wings burnt up. he is instrumental in pointing out the direction of that Ravana took Sita. In this manner both the birds served Rama.

This birds flying to reach the sun and getting the wings burnt is repeated in Greek myhology of Dadaelus and Icarus the father-son pair who are trapped in an island tower and make a pair of wings to escape from their prison. Icarus likes his flying power and reaches for the sun and gets the wax melted and falls from the sky.

In Greek mythology the moral is don't reach too high lest you get your wings burnt.

In Hinduism its not.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 16 Jun 2012 17:41

108 Again

Men's average height = 6 feet = 108 anguls (Old unit of measure, generally the breadth of middle finger)

6 feet is height of Dhanus (bow) = 108 Anguls

108 times happens to be the distance betwen the sun and the earth in terms of the sun's diameter...

Sun's Diameter
1380000 km * 108 = 149040000 km

(Google Chaha = 92,960,000 miles (149,600,000 km) Sun, Distance to Earth)

Also in moon's case.

Dia 3476 km * 108 = 375408

Average distance of Moon from earth = 381550 (average of nearest and farthest)

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Jun 2012 01:28

I saw this 8-volume book in the library:

The author, Manu Sharma, has also written other books like:

Draupadi ki Aatma-katha
Karna ki Aatma-katha
Narad ki Bhavisyavaani, etc.

---

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Jun 2012 10:48

Ramanaji, Chaganti has good series on Ramauanam. You can download and hear it in full.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 19 Jun 2012 20:25

Going back to a previous topic on this thread...

ManishH wrote:RV 1.162:

eṣa chāgaḥ puro aśvena vājinā pūṣṇo bhāgo nīyate viśvadevyaḥ

This she-goat who is Pusan's share is led towards the steed.
[...]

I've been taking a second look at the Veda and Brahmana verses and their interpretations from a linguistic standpoint, especially with a focus on the veg versus non-veg debate. The idea of Sanskrit roots having meanings that are not obect-oriented but rather property-metadata oriented has been brought up on the OIT thread in the Main forum. This derivation and usage of the meanings of Sanskrit words is deeply cross-referenced with the effective states and intention of the speaker and listener. I thought it would be interesting to bring that to bear on this debate also, since it is about the ethics scale of Indic society.

That there were meat-eaters is a fair comment, I think. But I am not yet convinced whether the practice of animal slaughter and meat-eating formed a part of the higher Vedic tradition in that society's ethic scale.

Came across this resource:
http://cdn.agniveer.com/wp-content/uplo ... riasim.pdf

Vedas and Vegetarianism
An excerpt from the preface:

Look at the following translation of Rgveta 6, 17, 11 by Ralph T.H. Griffith:
The theory of violence crept into Vedic studies with the western scholars who has a motive. Listen to Monier Williams, author of Sanskrit English Dictionary: The purpose of the Boden grant for Boden Chaisat Oxford and of the Dictionary and Sanskrit studies.

"He (Agni) dressed, i.e, cooked, a hundred buffaloes, O Indra, for thee whom all accordant Maruts strengthen. He, Pushan Vishnu, poured forth three great vessels to him, the juice that cheers, that slaughters vrtra."

Now the translation in the spirit of Swami Dayanand in Nirukta style:

"O Indra, ruler of the world, let all vibrant creative forces of nature and humanity join in unison and exalt you, ripening and maturing a hundred mightly gifts of vitality in your service. May Vishnu, all pervasive sustaining power of universal nourishment, ever active, fill the three spaces of heaven, earth and the middle regions with life giving nectar of bliss and exhilaration for this Indra who breaks down the strongholds of darkness and evil."

As in the interpretation of this mantra you have to choose between Indra, the carnivorous agre, and Indra the refulgent ruler, so in the matter of yajna you will have to choose between the blood stained altar and the ‘grassy vedi’ of fragrant flowers. In an age of science and reason, freedom and democracy, global unity of diversity and telecommunication, it is the reader’s choice to know the way you want to know, freely without prejudice : the mantra is :

vardhan yam vishve marutah sajoshah pacatchatam mahisan Indra tubhyam I
Pusha vishnus trini saransi dhavan vrtrahanam madiram ansum ashmai II

The mischief lies in the verb ‘pachat’ and the noun ‘mahishan’ which is the object of pachat. Pachat is from the root ‘pach’ which in Monier Williams’ Dictionary means “to cook, bake, roast, boil”, and also ‘to ripen, mature, bring to perfection or completion’. ‘Mahishan’ is the accusative plural of ‘mahisha’ which means “great, powerful, a great priest, a sage,” and also “ a buffalo”. The choice of the meaning in the translation reflects the faith and motive of the translator. The reader should decide whether we should honour and rightfully exalt the Vedas, in fact all Scriptures of the world, and the rituals, provisions and injunctions prescribed by them on merit with reason and honesty or play with them.

We may still thank to Professor Griffiths for the has translated ‘madiram’ as juice that cheers’ and not as ‘Whiskey’ !

I am looking to find alternative Nirukti-based interpretations of some of the verses ManishH ji brought to our attention as explicit descriptions of slaughter and consumption.

Clearly, the derivation and interpretation of meaning is based on the effective state, intention and method that forms the subjective context of the conversationbetween speaker and listener. Therefore, multiple methodological interpretations may be extracted from Vedas as shakhas. However, are all of these equal-equal? I doubt it; there is an ethical scale. We need to see whether this veg versus non-veg debate corresponds to different grades on that scale, or whether it is an artificial dichotomy that occurred later due to sectarian conflict.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Jun 2012 23:30

Carl wrote:The idea of Sanskrit roots having meanings that are not obect-oriented but rather property-metadata oriented has been brought up on the OIT thread in the Main forum.

A comment I too was thinking of making.

Very true and very remarkable!

However it seems our thinking in the modern age has become extremely object-oriented using classifiers.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 21 Jun 2012 09:59

RajeshA ji, we think alike.

ManishH ji, where are you? Need your comments to the previous post, and now this one. I am taking a previous post of yours on this thread, and juxtaposing the translations you provided with those provided by Swami Dayananda and other disciples of the Arya Samaj (taken from his RigVeda Bhashya). These are all from RgVeda 1.162, a chapter that talks about men, horses, diet, training, implements and weapons, etc. Arya Samaj gives their padArtha and then bhAvArtha or shrAvArtha.

The people that you are quoting think the whole chapter is one long description of men killing their horses and eating them. Words like "yUpa" are taken to mean a a very specific and limited object - the sacrificial post to which the animal is tied, etc. But it doesn't have to mean something so limited and specific at all. People like Sayana, etc may have surveyed the contemporary ritual scene around them and given the Veda such specific meanings. A lot of the translations in this view are plausible, but don't really make any sense whatsoever, nor do they do justice to the Sanskrit language. In Dayananda's translation, they seems to make some sense, are supported by fact, and are plausible too. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

ManishH wrote:verse 3:
eṣa chāgaḥ puro aśvena vājinā pūṣṇo bhāgo nīyate viśvadevyaḥ

This she-goat who is Pusan’s share is led towards the steed.

Here is Sw. Dayananda's bhAvArtha (my translations from Hindi):
"The knowledgeable man who feeds his horses goat's milk and who partakes of well-cooked food is always peaceful."

Those who rear and show horses know that, especially prior to a horse show, they feed their horses goat-milk. This is supposed to calm down the horses, reduce their nervousness and anxiety, and make them stable, peaceful and alert, especially before a significant event (like a sacrifice perhaps? or maybe any other event). (a source). So, the verse refers to that part of a man's peace and happiness that depends on what he feeds himself and his domesticated animals. (My only question about Dayananda's translation is that "chAga" is masculine, no?)

ManishH wrote:verse 4:
yad dhaviṣyam ṛtuśo devayānaṃ trirmānuṣāḥ paryaśvaṃ nayanti

Thrice the men lead the horse around as it goes to the Gods.

Dayananda's shrAvartha: "Those who create vehicles that can adapt and thrive in all seasons, and who raise horses and goats for the benefit of the world, they attain to all three - physical, spoken and mental peace and health."

ManishH wrote:verse 8:
ad vājino dāma sundānamarvato yā śīrṣaṇyā …
… tṛṇaṃ sarvā tā te api deveṣvastu

May the steed’s reins etc. grass in the mouth be among the Gods.

What does it mean for the grass in a horse's mouth to "be among the gods"?

Dayananda's bhAvArtha: "Those men of awareness who maintain their horses securely, their senses reined in, and adorned with the best equipments, and who then feed them well and get them to execute mighty tasks, such people can accomplish the highest behaviors such as victory, etc."

ManishH wrote:verse 9:
yadaśvasya kraviṣo makṣikāśa …
yad dhastayoḥ śamituryan nakheṣu sarvā tā te api deveṣvastu

What horse’s flesh the fly ate, …
… what was stuck to the hands and nails of the slayer, may this too be amongst the Gods

Is "shamitR" translated as "slayer"? Why? Clearly its not proceeding from the Sanskrit roots, where it means "one who keeps his mind calm; tranquillized , relieved , quelled , quenched, etc.". Clearly, the word "slayer" is used only because the translator above is proceeding from the assumption that the scene is one of animal slaughter.

Dayananda also derives "kraviShaH" as "kramaNa-shIla" - one that advances step by step; "riptaM" as that which is smeared; "nakheShu" as those nails in which there is no AkAsha element, etc.

His bhAvArtha: "Attendants should maintain the horses so that they are not troubled by malodorous smears on their body, and the flies, mosquitoes and their stings that it attracts. With their hands, nails and ropes, etc they must create a fine harness and goad, so that the beast learns to move according to human will. By doing so, the horse becomes restrained, focused and obedient and can do great works."

ManishH wrote:verse 10:
yadūvadhyamudarasyāpavāti ya āmasya kraviṣo gandho asti

What undigested food is in it’s stomach and the smell of the flesh

…medhaṃ śṛtapākaṃ pacantu

May the sacrifice be nicely cooked

Here, Dayananda translates "kraviShaH" as those types of nourishments that are to be extracted gradually; "apavAti" as that which is borne and excreted by the apAna-vAyu; "UvadhyaM" as that which is fit to be struck away (note that the etymology for "undigested grass in the stomach of a slaughtered animal" as a primary meaning is admitted as doubtful even by Sayana, etc); "kRNvatu" as cut; "medhaM" as that which is obtained (not "meat"); "shRtapAkaM" as those ingredients that are ripe andmature rather than raw, etc.

Dayananda's bhAvArtha: "Men are relieved from stomach diseases and problems with the apAna-vAyu by eating well-cooked and medicinal foods."

Note again that the padArtha and bhAvArtha given above finds correspondence in well known sAttvika diets and kapha-vAta-pitta theories, etc. that most Hindus even today are familiar with.

verse 11:
yat te gātrādagninā pacyamānādabhi …

That from your limbs which is cooked by fire

mā tad bhūmyāmā śriṣan mā tṛṇeṣu devebhyastaduśadbhyo

May that left on the ground or grass be willingly offered to the Gods.

"That from your limbs which is cooked by fire"? It seems really and truly contrived, or a particularly macabre sense of "poetic" description. Good for goths and heavy metal lyricists. But a fascinating interpretation nevertheless. Please note, I do consider all the translations you provided plausible; they're just not the most meaningful or the most edifying.

But Dayananda translates "agninA" as from the fire of anger (krodhAgni); "pacyamAnAt" as heated by exertion; "mA -A - shriyat" as not touching or falling; "ushadbhyaH" as he who envies and desires what you have, burning intensely with such desire; "devebhyaH" as that enemy who also possesses divine qualities, etc.

His bhAvArtha: "Able bodied men of awareness ought to know that in battle they must wield their weapons thoughtfully and not in frenzied rage, clinically intending only to kill the enemy - for a weapon wielded in rage may fall onto the ground, etc. (and therefore defeat the purpose)."

Simple and meaningful.

verse 12:
ye vājinaṃ paripaśyanti pakvaṃ ya īmāhuḥ surabhirnirhareti
ye cārvato māṃsabhikṣāmupāsata uto teṣāmabhigūrtirna invatu

They who look out for the cooked (or ready) steed, say the smell is good
They who await the distribution of meat, their approval strengthen this

Dayananda's padArtha does this: "vAjinaM" as that in which there are a lot of nutritious ingredients; "Im" as the water for that which is to be cooked; "arvataH" as the courser that is obtained; "mAMsa-bhikShAm uta upAsate" as those who by consideration and compensation (tarka-vitarka) do not include meat in what they eat (as you know, sometimes the indeclinable "uta" is used to mean "rather" or "how much less on the contrary"); "abhigUrttiH" as those who have perseverance; "surabhiH" as fragrant, etc.

His bhAvArtha: "Those people who know how to purify, cook and consume food and water, and who abjure meat and consume well cooked diets that compensates for all nutrients, such people are active and blessed with perseverance."

verse 14:
nikramaṇaṃ niṣadanaṃ vivartanaṃ yacca paḍbīśamarvataḥ
yacca papau yacca ghāsiṃ jaghāsa sarvā tā te api deveṣvastu

Where it walked, where it rested and paced around ropes that bound its feet
What it drank, what it masticated, all these are among Gods

This translation takes no account of words like "tE", etc. It takes no account of who is being addressed, and the substance of the conversation. Its just a raving, propitiatory action to "gods".

Dayananda's translation: "Oh knowledgeable trainer, just as a beautifully trained steed walks and jumps obediently and majestically, in the same way people who are taught by those with high knowingness become civilized; just as horses eat and drink their fill and digest it fully, so also may there be men radiant with such trained knowledge."

Skipping a few verses you next quoted -

ManishH wrote:verse 18:
catustriṃśad vājino devabandhorvaṅkrīraśvasya svadhitiḥsameti
The axe falls upon the 34-ribbed steed who is Gods’ own

His padArtha: "devabandhO" are all that is related to the illumined earth and its ecology; "ashvasya" is (the swiftness of) Agni; "svadhitiH" is electricity; "sameti" is that which goes nicely and increases; "catustriMshat" is 34 types of; "vankrI" is crooked paths or ways; "vi shasta" meaning beat them so as to straighten them out; "puruShparuH" meaning in each and every sensitive ganglion; "anughuShya" meaning to give shape to a mechanism that is suitable to one's purpose; "vayunA" refers to the best of knowledge and deeds, etc.

Dayananda's translation: "Oh men! That cause from which electric lightening is produced (in the sky), that cause actually pervades everything here on earth too. Try to bring that much of this lightening into your use as does not hurt or endanger life and limb. For those who know the properties of Agni (elemental Fire) and suitably by experiment make use of its properties, for them what work cannot be accomplished, i.e. all is made possible!"

However, I do admit that the number "34" is interesting. Most horses have 36 ribs, though some Arabian steeds have 34, and so this number in this verse is certainly interesting. In comparison, the above translation doesn't tell what "34 properties" are.

If you have time I would like to hear your comments on these translations and why they are less acceptable to academics than the ones you posted. I will post some more alternatives to other verses you cited tomorrow.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 21 Jun 2012 20:11

...continuing from above with other verses quoted by ManishH ji in his previous post:

ManishH wrote:from verse 19:
yā te gātrāṇām ṛtuthā kṛṇomi tā-tā piṇḍanāṃ pra juhomyagnau

Of these limbs, I set in order, make balls and to fire I offer

Dayananda's interpretation: "For that knowledgeable one who can analyze and splits all elements, who uses the different forms of electric charge as per the seasonal mode, availability and creative potential, and who accomplishes mighty tasks by knowing the praised properties of Agni and feeding the flames with masses of wood and other materials that posses concentrated parts ('samghAton ke ang'), how can such a man not be the knower of shilpavidyA (art of constructive activity and translating Idea into Form)?"

ManishH wrote:verse 20:
mā tvā tapat priya ātmāpiyantaṃ mā svadhitistanva ātiṣṭhipat te

Let not your dear soul heat up, let not the axe remain (stuck) in you

Again here Dayananda translates "svadhiti" as the bioelectric current in our own bodies -- well known and used in some of the 32 Brahma-vidyas; "gRdhnuH" as those bodily beings that have hankering desires; "mithU" as mutual oneness, etc.

Dayananda's take: "Those men who practice yoga and oneness, death does not trouble them by fatal diseases, and even other diseases do not trouble them during life as they do to men with material hankerings."

ManishH wrote:verse 21:
na vā u etan mriyase na riṣyasi devānideṣi pathibhiḥ sugebhiḥ

No you (the sacrificed horse) aren't dead or injured, you go to Gods on good roads

Dayananda's take: "Those men who consolidate their minds by the practice of yoga, especially those divine yogis who find Dharmic pathways of executing yoga, they link their Souls with the Supersoul, and are said to have obtained freedom (moksha)."

ManishH wrote:verse 22:
sugavyaṃ no vājī svaśvyaṃ puṃsaḥ putrānuta viśvāpuṣaṃ rayim

May this steed give us good cattle, manly sons, nourishing riches

Dayananda says that this verse has a vAcaka-luptOpamA-alankAra..a broken simile that omits the particle of comparison. So his translation is: "Those who use the knowledge of the elemental Earth and other elements in order to raise and nourish cattle, horses and human children with strength, and who accumulate capital and then use the speed of Agni element to expand the rashtra and yet remain without corruption and peaceful, such men should try to make others also like this."

Dayananda adds: "This sUkta of the RigVeda manifests the ashvarUpa aspect of Agni, and by understanding it in this way it is coherent with the previous sUkta. It is important to observe this significant point."

In conclusion, I feel that this coherence is important. Throughout the Arya Samaj treatment of this sUkta, the subject is the Agni element and its manifestations and uses in, both, the macrocosm and the microcosm - as lightening in the sky, as energy forms on earth, and as bioelectricity in the human nervous system. The advice of the sUkta urges the human to realise the best with all three, in the realm of society and politics, personal physical and mental health, and spiritual salvation. OTOH, taking a purely "ritual sacrifice" view is hardly coherent with other sUktas, much less within its own verses. It truly does look savage and superstitious. It is difficult to imagine how the Upanishads could be derived from such an interpretation of the Veda, whereas in Dayananda's commentary it is easy to see.

So perhaps Sayana andother medieval commentators who wrote on the Vedas (all pretty recent) were giving a very specific and limited exegesis of the Veda. Is there any compelling reason for modern Indologists to take the limited meanings they assigned and fix them as the primary meanings? OTOH, other medieval commentators of much greature stature as all-rounders, such as Madhvacharya, also wrote RgBhashyas. Why is his exegetical key not given precedence over that of others? This ought to be explained by the Indologists, linguists, etc.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Jun 2012 08:11

Daksha

Daksha waited outside looking at the sky, waiting for the sun to set. He loved the moment when the stars started twinkling into existence, at first one by one and later several at a time as daylight faded. He loved to look at the sky. There was nothing as beautiful and as precise and predictable as the sun and the moon and the stars.

He was young, strong, handsome and very fond of his lovely wife, Prasuti. They called him Daksha, the dexterous! They said he was born of the thumb of Brahma. Daksha laughed., they just said any old thing. What if some fool were to take them literally?Brahma worried about that laughter. ‘This one is just too confident of himself’, he thought. ‘They will think he is arrogant”.

“And who is “they”? father,’ he would ask. ” ‘They’, that think things and label people.. I have no time for such vague people or vague statements.”

“Must be brother Manu,” he thought. “I have never seen another being with views so rigid. He and Bhrgu! Always talking of ethics and purity and rules. So sure that they were better than everyone else! Actually, one had to concede that Bhrgu was a wizard of sorts.. he could cure people of anything and was not in the least scared of the muck that people had under their skin or the icky stuff that oozed out. And Manu was a legal wizard, and expert at sociology and principles that governed the behaviour of people. Sometimes though, he didn’t see people as .. well human people!”

Prasuti laughed. “Careful when you criticise my father,” she said warningly. “You are no bundle of humility!”

“Send my darling little Sati to me, I want to show her something”, he told his wife. Daksha thought that his daughter Sati was the Devi herself. Brilliant, beautiful, insightful, gentle, brave and proud! None of that timid deference that other women were given to. She was fearlessness personified.
...

Read it all at http://ancientindians.wordpress.com/anc ... nanasanam/

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Jun 2012 22:24

X-Posting for the retain the beauty of Daksha story

I understand that we all want to destroy the AIT/AMT and pursue the OIT for various reasons - pursuit of Truth, Self-Pride, Geopolitics, Colonization, revenge, whatever...

But in the process we are reading Vedas as some dry text-book/novel and doing word searches and word counts etc.,

I am sure most of the active participants as well-versed in Sanskrit language, but Vedic sanskrit is slightly different and sometimes the Panini Grammer doesn't stand (I heard that is because the Vedas predate Panini hence do not follow his grammar strictly). This is called Chandasa where the intended meaning of Vedas holds primary even if it is grammatically incorrect w.r.t Panini.

I think it is appropriate to post this, so people understand Vedas correctly

Ancient Indians: Hidden in Plain View – The Vedas

For centuries people have been complaining that Vedas have been the prerogative of male brahmins and they did/do not share these with other genders and castes.

The nationalist leaders of the freedom movement fixed that problem and now Vedas are available to all.. books, recordings, translations, training.. what have you!

And yet .. the recordings deviate wildly from the Veda Swaras (of any Indian state) and violate Siksha Vedanga (which incidentally is taught very rarely)..

The training is non-rigourous and does not demand any anushthana (practice/discipline).

The translations are superficial, fanciful, loaded with vested interests, inconsistent .. rigid.. and so on.. basically inaccurate.

Ayyo! (Oh father! Oh Sir!)

Many people quote the Veda – Meanings as if the translations are absolute and accurate even though the translators do not know more than 1or 2 of the 6 vedangas .. Other people happily listen to the old syllables set to new notes.. thus changing the sounds preserved over thousands of years.

So now everyone has the Vedas or anyone can have the Vedas .. only very, very few people actually do have the Vedas, the s’abda!

Those people in search of that s’abda still undergo the anusthana and learn from a regular sacred guru the original “sounds” with swaras and uccharana (pronunciation) as it was in the days of the yore.

These gurus are remote and must be sought out.. the discipline is severe and the process is long drawn. For all this.. no one has any “time” anymore.

So in the midst of all this Vedic proliferation everywhere.. hidden in plain view is the “right sound” the Veda and you can have it only if you know which is right and how to lay your hearing and speech on it, pouring into that sacred yagnya, the ghee of the time and effort of your well-regulated mind.

And one who doesn’t know, doesn’t know even if he is told. “Teliyani vaadiki cheppinaa teliyadu!”

Ayyo! Once the Vedas were hidden from view and now they are hidden in plain sight! Hidden by the ignorance, pride and/or laziness in the mind of the observer. Far better hidden now, than ever, becoz’ a bloke who’s happy he’s found the treasure.. isn’t going to search anymore…

Another article related to this dhaaga...

Ancient Indians: Daksha : He named the fixed stars!

Authorship and Copyright Notice : All Rights Reserved : Satya Sarada Kandula

Daksha waited outside looking at the sky, waiting for the sun to set. He loved the moment when the stars started twinkling into existence, at first one by one and later several at a time as daylight faded. He loved to look at the sky. There was nothing as beautiful and as precise and predictable as the sun and the moon and the stars.

He was young, strong, handsome and very fond of his lovely wife, Prasuti. They called him Daksha, the dexterous! They said he was born of the thumb of Brahma. Daksha laughed., they just said any old thing. What if some fool were to take them literally?Brahma worried about that laughter. ‘This one is just too confident of himself’, he thought. ‘They will think he is arrogant”.

“And who is “they”? father,’ he would ask. ” ‘They’, that think things and label people.. I have no time for such vague people or vague statements.”

“Must be brother Manu,” he thought. “I have never seen another being with views so rigid. He and Bhrgu! Always talking of ethics and purity and rules. So sure that they were better than everyone else! Actually, one had to concede that Bhrgu was a wizard of sorts.. he could cure people of anything and was not in the least scared of the muck that people had under their skin or the icky stuff that oozed out. And Manu was a legal wizard, and expert at sociology and principles that governed the behaviour of people. Sometimes though, he didn’t see people as .. well human people!”

Prasuti laughed. “Careful when you criticise my father,” she said warningly. “You are no bundle of humility!”

“Send my darling little Sati to me, I want to show her something”, he told his wife. Daksha thought that his daughter Sati was the Devi herself. Brilliant, beautiful, insightful, gentle, brave and proud! None of that timid deference that other women were given to. She was fearlessness personified.

“Father, here I am”, she said. ‘Are you going to show me the stars again?” she asked happily. Daksha smiled a ‘yes’ at her.

“That there in the east is where the stars, sun and moon rise”, he said, “and there in the west is where they set. And your grandfather Brahma showed me how the sun and the moon rise a little more towards the north every day for half the time and a little more to the south every day for half the time.”

“I know!” yelled Sati. “And that there is Thatha’s favorite star – Shravista (now called Dhanishta) towards the south”. Daksha put on a serious expression. “I need your help to do a little project young lady!” he said. “First, for a whole month we are going to watch the moon, and we are going to watch which stars he is near and how much time he spends with each one. And we’ll number them.”

“No, we’ll give them names” Sati said. “Alright, and we’ll make a little model out of bamboo strips bent into perfect circles and stick little bits of clay to mark the special stars” said Daksha. “If I name the stars ‘they’ will call them my daughters”, he sighed.

“But ‘we’ don’t care what ‘they’ think, do we father?”, she asked. “No, we don’t”, he said. Their project ran into several months as they made their model more and more accurate. The stars had to be bright, easy to distinguish and equally spaced along the north-south as well as along the east-west axes. Some stars were a little closer together and some were a little further apart. On some nights Bhrgu joined them. When her uncle Bhrgu came over, Sati used to point out the patterns she saw in the sky. “Do you see that goat’s head? That star there is Asvini” she said. “And do you see that bull? It is my Siva who rides it, we call that star aRudra, because it is reddish..”

Bhrgu turned to Daksha. “What is this talk of ‘my Siva’ ?” he demanded. “She’s a child,” Daksha replied.

“Manu says that a girl is a young lady at 8 years” said Bhrgu. “You just made that up, you are the one who does all that biology stuff. Not Manu!” said Daksha.

Prasuti intervened, “Whoever said it, Sati is a young lady and you are not raising her like a girl. You keep her up late and fill her head with stars and numbers. She takes no interest in dressing and housework. How long do you plan to do this?’

Daksha said “Sati is Devi herself. When she sits next to me the heavens light up and so does my brain. I can think clearly and understand perfectly. Narry a cloud blocks my vision. Stars or no stars, she is not an ordinary girl”.

After Bhrgu left, Prasuti spoke to Daksha, “When she is not talking stars and numbers to you, she is talking about Siva to everyone else, she has decided to marry him.”

Daksha was in a dilemna. While he did not technically believe in jathis or races, he did not actually think his daughter would choose someone whose parentage was unknown and unknowable. What a headache! Manu would give him an earful. Manu and Bhrgu wanted what they called racial purity. They believed that the descendants of Brahma should keep together and marry only within the clan. There was no use to talking to them.

Daksha called on Vasishtha. ” ‘They’ say you are born from the mind of our father Brahma”, he said. Vasishtha laughed, ” ‘They’ should be careful, some folks might take them literally,” he said. “What they really mean to say is that I have understood his thought and wisdom in its essence, but ‘they’ like shortcuts, it makes it more poetic!”

Daksha spoke “I have a real issue. My daughter Sati has set her heart on Siva. They say that he has three eyes and lives in a cremation ground with snakes and other animals. He is definitely not one of us, not a brahmana. Manu won’t like this.”

Vasishtha said,”It is not Manu’s life. It is Sati’s. You know that I am going to marry Arundhati. She is not a brahman either. Manu understands sociology – how most people can be made to conform to rules that will benefit the society as he understands it. But he does not appear to get psychology, how individuals feel and behave. We are not here to create a pure race. We are here to understand the divine.”

He paused, then continued “By the way your little girl has been telling me all about your project. I think that if people aligned their life events to the stars, then life would be orderly, dates would be easy to remember and we would know which dates are luckier than others.”

Daksha groaned, ” Not you too. Our genius brother Bhrgu has started mapping out thousands of combinations of what he calls ‘horoscopes’, based on these star positions that I am working out. He is gathering data of everyone he knows and making predictions for everyone that may ever be born at any time. He says his daughter Sridevi is helping him with this”.

The next day, there was a family debate. “Individual freedom and Aspirations Vs Social Order and racial purity.” No one would grant the other’s point. When Bhrgu tried to say something, they shushed him saying – “You believe in destiny and fate. What right do you have to debate when you don’t even believe in free will?”

Prasuti spoke,”Racial purity will require controlling women … and men for that matter. If a father has the ultimate right to gift his daughter to a worthy man, then she forfeits her right to marry the penniless man that she loves. It is against free choice”.

Manu said, “Na Stri Svatantram Arhati – A woman does not deserve freedom”. Prasuti got upset but did not wish to contradict her father. Then Sati spoke laughingly, “Yaa Stri Svatantram Chahati, Saa stri Svatantram Arhati! – That woman who desires freedom, deserves it!” Manu looked at Sati. When she spoke it wasn’t like a human debating a rule. It was like a divine decree. She was like the Devi herself.

Daksa said, “Father, in a short time the sun will set and Sati and I have to work on our project. Prasuti won’t let us work on an empty stomach. Let’s discuss this some other time”. Vasisihtha and Sridevi, Bhrgu’s daughter, also wanted to go with Daksha.

Bhrgu and Manu stayed back with Brahma. “They will think you are a bigot, Manu, you have to ease up a little.” said Brahma.

Manu spoke, “But father, that is because ‘they’ never hear me out completely. Daksha does not even treat sociology like a proper subject. I am not talking of racial purity as they try to project. ‘They’ claim that I am talking about racial purity and then they force me to defend a stand that they project on me. Some fool might believe them.”

He continued, “What I am talking if high specialisations, in mathematics, science, philosophy and engineering that will come if families dedicate themselves to a profession. Look at Daksha, he learnt Astronomical Siddhantam (it is now called Pitamaha Siddhantam) from you, his father and he is teaching his daughter now. Bhrgu and Vasishtha are learning from his observations and enhancing their work. That is community, family and clans working, whether are not Daksha and Vasishtha agree. Viswakarma and his family are brilliant with architecture, goldsmithy and city planning. I hear that he has made a bow for Vishnu, that has to bee seen to be believed. If you allow our country to specialise in their professions on family lines, this will be the greatest of all countries. No one will hold back their knowledge from their darling children.”

Brahma said, “I understand you. By the way, I have seen your work on time measurement. That is excellent. And your piece on ethics and law is brilliant. It is just the rules that you have made which curtail individual freedom that people resent. Happiness lies in self-determination. People want choice.”

Manu said, “I don’t care much for all that psychology stuff, Vasishtha goes ON about it, so. Individuals must restrain themselves and follow rules for the benefit of society. The well-being of an individual lies in the well-being of the country.” Bhrgu looked at Manu with great admiration. He said, “I guarantee that my children and their children remember every word you say. I will train them to make any sacrifice for the well-being of this country.”

At Daksha’s place, Sati had taken upon herself the role of the official spokesperson of their project. She showed Sridevi, the pole star that had never moved in all their months of observation. “We call it Dhruva, the firm”, she said. “Uncle Vasishtha says that it can be attained only by a person of great and unflinching resolve to a noble cause.”

As the stars appeared at different times on different nights, she would point them out. One day she pointed at Auriga. “We name that one after Thatha, our grandfather, Brahma.” she said. “Uncle Vasishtha!”, she called, “Can you see those seven stars? The second one there, we named after you. We have named one after Arundhati aunty as well, there near the kruthika cluster (Pleiades)”.

After the ‘project time’ was over, Sridevi and Sati would go off by themselves. “My father is going to give me to Vishnu in marriage,” said Sridevi delightedly, “What about your story? Any luck?”

Sati said, “Easy! From tomorrow, I don’t eat, till I get my way. If I so much as skip breakfast, mother will bring more pressure to bear on father than he can handle. He will land up at Siva’s door and offer my hand in marriage”.

It was as Sati said. Daksha found himself asking Nandi for a meeting with Siva. As Siva came up to greet him, Daksha was struck by his brilliant good looks and radiance, that no amount of ash or snakes could hide. “If I was this good looking, I would not care about a bath or ornaments either, he thought. “Where is that ‘third eye’ they talk about? The one that shoots fire?” he asked directly, without any preamble.

Siva laughed heartily. That wondrous, joyous laughter rang around the hills and valleys. The sun shone brighter and gentler, the winds became fragrant and Daksha was transfixed by Siva’s twinkling eyes. At that minute, he knew, deep in his heart, without really knowing why, that Siva was the right one for Sati. Nature herself reflected their moods. This was no ordinary man. It was an insult, an an anachronism to ask such a man about his parentage or his eligibility.

Siva spoke, “The third eye they speak about is my gnyananethram – eye of knowledge. I am an expert in Yoga and detached from the duality. So I can think clearly and can accept the truth, which is there for all to see. ‘They’ are blinded by their preferences and so do not accept the truth which their eyes and mind reveal. So rather than calling themselves prejudiced, they like to say that I have a third eye.”

“Please marry my daughter”, Daksha said urgently. “She is fasting and is adamant about marrying you. She will have none other. I am helpless against her will. And now that I have seen you, I know she is right.”

“I will come with you right away,” said Siva.

At Daksha’s place, Siva saw the model they had made and understood what they were trying to do.

Sati came out and said directly, ” ‘They’ call this the DakshaYajna. Everyone one I know has been to see it. In my family any long and difficult task is called a Yajnam. And we have been doing it for months”. Siva smiled at Sati, “I see your father is right about you, anyone would be helpless against your will. And I can see where you would not give importance to the same things that other girls give importance to.” Sati smiled back, ” ‘They’ see the form and not the substance, I see both.” “Will you have me for your wife?”. Siva laughed his wondrous laugh again. “So, I am not to be allowed the privilege of asking your father for you. Yes, of course I will marry you. I have never met a woman, who wished to live near cremation grounds, covered with ash and surrounded by animals and hill-folk, who spends most of his time in Yogic Dhyana (contemplation).”

Vasishtha heard about Siva’s visit and rushed to Daksha’s place, touched his feet and sought his blessings. “I hear that you have accepted my brother’s daughter. We are blessed for eternity.” Daksha was surprised. Vasishtha as oblivious to Daksha’s mood, “I am planning to compose a work called the Yoga Vasishtham. I am composing some Veda Mantras, which not only praise the Sun and the Ocean, but which also encode all the astronomical discoveries of my brother Daksha and my father, Brahma. I am working on a system of auspicious muhurtams or lucky times. Anyone who commences his work at those instants of celestial alignments will be sure to succeed in their endeavours. I am talking to Agni and others and learning all the histories of times past. All I needed was a darshan (sight) of you, to untangle all my ideas, into clear streams of thought and expression. They say that not only do you have all the answers, but you are all the answers. I and all my descendants are forever blessed”.

Daksha was surprised,”Does one bow to one who is younger? Or to the one who gifts his daughter in marriage?”. He shook his head, ” I am thinking like Manu now. If Vasishtha does it, it must be right, though I can’t understand half the things he says”.

“O Sati, what will happen to our project, now that you are off getting married?” Daksha said sadly. “Manu does say it is a waste educating girls. When they get married, they go away, unlike sons who stay on”. Sati laughed, “I believe that the girl going away is a also a rule made by the boys. Don’t worry, my uncles Vasishtha and Bhrgu, want us to wait till UttaraPhalguni Nakshatram (Denebola/Zavijaya). Siva will help us finish the project by then.” Daksha gave a smile and said,”Vasishtha thinks that we should order our lives as per celestial movements. Bhrgu thinks that our lives are already ordered as per celestial movements. But they joyfully work together without appearing to see the essential, logical contradictions in their views.”

Siva was a godsend as far as Daksha was concerned. He understood without speech. He helped make a more robust model, than what Sati and he had managed till them. He understood things like wheel balancing and centre of gravity. He suggested adding small paddles to the wheels so that the wheels could be turned by water. Manu’s time measurement devices were very useful in making a scaled model. They could quickly simulate, what would happen months, or even years down the line. He never needed to sleep and they could work through the night and day. He suggested that Daksha take Viswakarma’s model and get it made out of gold.

Everyone still called it Dakshayajna. Sati felt that Siva should get a share of the credit too and talked to her father. Siva sensed that Daksha wanted all the credit, it was “his” project from the beginning. Siva had only come in the end. It was not easy changing Sati’s mind. Finally, Siva said, “Let it go Sati, you and I know what all we deserve credit for. You never wanted any credit for yourself, then why for me? And your father is brilliant with his observations. I am just helping a little with the modelling. He has divided each nakshatra into 4 padas (quarters). He has added a circle for each pada. Now when the wheels turn you can see each pada of each star rise and set in turn. You can also see which nakshatra is rising when which nakshatra is setting. That really makes it easy for knowing daytime movements and positions.”

Sati said, “Yes, now if only, we could add some horizontal circles showing how the sun and the moon move… Have you told him that we will be leaving for the Himalayas as soon as we get married? My grandfather Brahma, thinks that we rely too much on the mountains and oceans to guard us and it will be good if we ‘manned’ our borders.”

“No one has the courage to tell your mother, that will be your job”, said Siva. “Himavantha and Menaka are very excited that you are coming, they look upon you as their own daughter, everyone their is waiting for their Parvathi Devi. The have heard and firmly believe that you are the Devi herself.”

Siva and Daksha were giving a final finish to the Dakshayajna project model. Vasishta came to watch. Daksha wanted to decide on a zero point. I have made a sort of imaginary star called Daksha (Abhijit) that overlaps with the end of Uttarashada. That can be the staring point he said. Siva did not agree. We’ll start with Aswini, the first star of Mesha, your “goat’s head”, he said. Daksha was said in mock anger. “My son-in-law, would you replace my head with a goats’s head?”

“Why, yes,” said Siva, “I would! It makes more seasonal sense. In fact, I would knock off your imaginary 28th Daksha Nakshatram completely and leave it at your original 27!”

Daksha shook his head,”Siva, you don’t care what ‘they’ will say. ‘They’ will say that my head has been replaced by a goat’s head. ‘They’ will draw morals from it and teach people not to be arrogant.” He threw a look at Vasishtha.

“And “they” will never forget you or your achievements!” said Vasishtha. “Now, no one can look at Mesha or any of the 27 stars, without thinking of you!”

Siva half closed his eyes, glanced at the future briefly and smiled at Daksha. “It will be as both of you say, but Sati will illuminate the minds of seekers of truth and “they” will know what really happened here today”, said He!

Authorship and Copyright Notice : All Rights Reserved : Satya Sarada Kandula

Notes :

In Sanskrit, the word Daksha means, right, skilled and south. When you face the east, south is to the right. That is why Daksha and Sati may be understood to be from the South. Daksha was also the name of a Prajapati, a son of Brahma appointed by Brahma to create Pra-jah (pro-creators). Daksha was a Prajapati. Praja means person and pati means lord. So Daksha was a lord of the people. Brahma made him a Prajapati along with some other Rishis. As per wikipedia, Daksha was called the father of the 27 stars, because he was the astronomer who named them.

Manu was the author of the Manusmriti. The narrator is Bhrgu. That is why in my story Daksha thinks that Bhrigu my have added in his own bits to manu smriti. One of Bhrgu’s descendants was Chanakya, the author of Kautilya ArthaSastra. The Artha Sastra has borrowed some parts from the ManuSmriti. Bhrgu authored the Bhrgu Samhita with includes sections on horoscopy as well as medicine. That explains the reference to Bhrgu’s medical skills

Siva was the God of the Asuras and Devas, the Devadeva.

Legends tell us that Bhrgu, Daksha and Manu were born of Brahma and that Vasishtha was his manasaputra. Vasishtha was skilled in Yoga as well as Astrology and was the RSi of many Veda Mantras into which much astronomy is encoded.

Legends tell us that Daksha’s daughter, Dakshayani, was called Sati. She was very fair, so she was also called Gauri. She fell in love with Siva and wished to marry him. The way to please Siva is through Tapas. So Sati did a very severe tapas, in which she did not eat as much as a leaf. So she was called Aparna. Siva was pleased eventually, but Daksha was not pleased at all. He performed the marriage, but then would have nothing to do with his divine daughter and son-in-law. When Daksha decided to perform a great Yajnam, he left Siva and Sati out on purpose. So Siva did not go and Brahma and Vishnu avoided the Yajnam as well. Daksha decided to go ahead any way. When Sati heard about this, she begged Siva for permission to go. She thought that daughters did not need invitations to go to fathers’ yajnas. Siva reluctantly let her go. Daksha was cold to Sati and said terrible things about Siva. Sati was very hurt and angry. She decided that she would be born again as the daughter of a father who loved Siva. She created a magic fire with her toe-nail and disappeared in it. When Siva heard what happened to Sati he was both sad and angry. He sent Virabhadra and Bhadrakali to destroy the Yajnam. And he replaced Daksha’s head with a goat’s head!

Daksha Smriti : http://www.urday.com/daksha.html

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 23 Jun 2012 02:16

RamaY wrote:I understand that we all want to destroy the AIT/AMT and pursue the OIT for various reasons - pursuit of Truth, Self-Pride, Geopolitics, Colonization, revenge, whatever...
...
I think it is appropriate to post this, so people understand Vedas correctly
Ancient Indians: Hidden in Plain View – The Vedas

The nationalist leaders of the freedom movement fixed that problem and now Vedas are available to all.. books, recordings, translations, training.. what have you!
...
The translations are superficial, fanciful, loaded with vested interests, inconsistent .. rigid.. and so on.. basically inaccurate.

RamaY ji, I agree with your point about the OIT debate. I also acknowledge the point made by the blogger above. However, Veda can yield knowledge and knowledge derivatives of all kinds. the primary goal should be to get the supreme knowledge, but sometimes to get to a situation where that is possible, personal and social reform is necessary. Certainly in India that is true, since we have a problem with ethics in many fields of life - social, family, professional, hygiene, etc. Therefore, those nationalist interpreters of Veda did do a significant service. OTOH, merely finding and approaching a guru who has spent his whole life with all the Vedanga, etc. also does not guarantee that one can have access to the meaning of Veda. IMHO one does need to live out one's dynamics in all aspects of life, and that includes the nation.

From the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 8th Brahmana:

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad wrote:vᾱcam dhenum upᾱsīta tasyᾱś catvᾱraḥ stanᾱḥ; svᾱhᾱ-kᾱro vaṣat-kᾱro hanta-kᾱraḥ svadhᾱ-kᾱraḥ; tasyai dvau stanau devᾱ upajīvanti, svᾱhᾱ-kᾱraṁ ca, vaṣat-kᾱraṁ ca; hanta-kᾱraṁ manuṣyᾱḥ, svadhᾱ-kᾱram pitaraḥ. tasyᾱḥ prᾱṇa ṛṣabhaḥ, mano vatsaḥ.

"The Veda is to be meditated upon as the cow. There are four udders to the Veda, like those of the cow. They are symbolized by the colophons swaha, vaSat, hanta, swadha. Two udders of this cow are connected with the gods, the celestials in heaven - swaha and vaSat. But when the offering is made to a human being, hanta is used. And if the offering is to the deceased ancestors or forefathers, then swadha. Its (i.e., the cowlike Veda's) bull is prana (the life force). The calf is the mind."

So the Veda deals with celestial, terrestrial and the realm of the deceased. Just as the bull is responsible in some way for the secretion of milk from the cow, Prana is responsible for the secretion of the meaning of the Veda. Just as the connection of the calf with the udder of the cow becomes responsible for the secretion of the milk through the udder, so the thought generated in the mind at the time of the chant of the Mantras of the Veda becomes responsible for the manifestation of knowledge. If the mind is absent, knowledge will not manifest itself in spite of the chant.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jun 2012 06:21

^ Carl ji,

No disagreement on giving access to everyone, irrespective of their birth and what not. The question is why encouraging misinterpretation and misunderstanding of a science/philosophy when there exists an accurate interpretation, teaching method (tradition) and knowledgeable guru-parampara?

Which society opts the first approach, knowingly? Then why did the so-called nationalistic leadership (who happened to write the beautiful document called Indian Constitution a.k.a B R Ambedkar smriti) chose that option for a nation that finally got independence after hundreds if not thousands of years?

IMHO, this misinterpretation and misunderstanding is what lead Bharat to lose its spiritual, intellectual, social, economic and military super powerdom.

There exists no account of a power on the face of earth that could even look at Bharat disreespectfully before 1800BC.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jun 2012 07:49

Carl garu,

Please read the below blog post. Replace science/math with Vedas, board education with our nationalist approach to misinterpret Vedic knowledge and sampradaya guru parampara with IITs and contemplagr about the problem we got ourselves in to.

P.S: I do not think that Tanmay is right and am saddened with the intellectual clarity and social responsibility that kid shows. What a junk we are creating out of our IITs

nsriram wrote:A current IIT-K undergraduate provides an incisive analysis of the MHRD proposal and the realities on the ground (as of today, IITK and IITD are set to go their own way)

http://goo.gl/6Yxgu (part 1) , http://goo.gl/zWEHd (part 2), and http://goo.gl/d48qV (part 3)

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Jun 2012 06:49

RamaY wrote:No disagreement on giving access to everyone, irrespective of their birth and what not. The question is why encouraging misinterpretation and misunderstanding of a science/philosophy when there exists an accurate interpretation, teaching method (tradition) and knowledgeable guru-parampara?

RamaY ji, could you say more about this? Which particular Vedic interpretation, application and means of delivery is available to serve society at this point? From what I have observed, even if there were no conflicting interpretations, the means of full delivery that can span all of society do not seem to be there. It still remains largely esoteric, with administrative lines for social control. It is the latter part that has been rendered less relevant in modern times. Also, which particular nationalistic misinterpretations of Veda are you referring to?

It is one of my interests to find not just a practical application of Vedic philosophy, but a suitable means of delivery. India as a whole is the most challenging demographic for this because of the socio-cultural-economic diversity. But even taking, say, an urban setting, I am interested in claimants for effective delivery of the results of Vedic sAdhana.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jun 2012 07:35

ramana wrote:..
In Greek mythology the moral is don't reach too high lest you get your wings burnt.

In Hinduism its not.

interestingly both these flying brothers lost their wings at some point in the story, and both helped rama to find sita.

on the moral, how about this:

even if you lose your wings (freedom/authority), you can still help fight for the right cause (against crime/corruption).

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jun 2012 23:50

^ And after telling the Vanaras about Sita's whereabouts, Sampati gets his wings back and flies away to his loka.

Revisited this link (Ramanaji posted this a long time ago) today - Sri Yantra Project

From this site Is this theory of everything Video?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2012 21:59

RamaY, Nice creative writing with modern mind on Hindu puranas. However those are really gods and not humans made into gods and goddesses. Seeking a science based modern interpretation will not work. We are ancient or pracheen and that is what keeps us going.
The Greeks thought their gods were myths and ended up losing to Christianity.

Our gods are gods and not anything else. Others might have Son's of Gods (Perseus, Alexander what not), we have Gods(Vamana, Rama, Krishna) who took birth in our land and culture. We can be modern but can't distort the stories in our enthusiasm to backward project.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 29 Jun 2012 00:10

Carl wrote:
ManishH wrote:Basically on the lines of:
- This meat is needed only to beget a son who is well versed in atharva veda. Not a requirement for other vedas.
What is the traditional perception about the subject matter and spiritual level of the 4 Vedas and their branches? I have often heard the Atharva-Veda derogated, and even associated with "foreign" influences by some in the south.

ManishH wrote:Atharvaveda is considered lowly by many traditional priestly families in south. But I know of families in Nepal who follow it.

An interesting bit of research here:
Atharva Veda : The First Veda

For long the propagators of the Colonial Tradition (was it only colonial or something even before that?) have brainwashed Indian Readers who learn about our own culture through English language into thinking that the Atharva Veda is the last or most recent Veda.

For some time, clues have been popping into my knowledge space indicating that Atharva is the first or oldest Veda, exactly as tradition has been suggesting.
...
1.The RSis of the Atharva Veda include not only atharvan and angIrA but also Brahma himself. These rishis belong to the kRta yuga, which was the first of the 4 yuga cycle. Of course there are also some mantras of later RSis like s’aunaka in them. Saunaka Maharshi Was of the Dwapara and Kaliyugas.

2.Originally there was only one varna, then there were three and then there were four. We see that the Atharva Veda has reference to 3 varnas, whereas the Rg and Yajur Vedas have reference to 4 varnas.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Jun 2012 06:56

Carl ji,
many thanks for this. I am thinking along these lines now
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1303818

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jun 2012 20:34

http://indiatemple.blogspot.com/2006/11 ... nabhi.html
interesting read and comments.

from garuda puruna.. very few would have read.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Jul 2012 10:52

Samaveda Chanting - BrainMovie
[youtube]DX11bBpuKlU&feature=related[/youtube]

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jul 2012 19:56

http://www.philosophy.ru/library/asiati ... astra.html

Chanakya Niti Sastra

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jul 2012 02:22

India: A Sacred Geography By Diana L Eck

2012 | 576 Pages | ISBN: 0385531907 |

In India: A Sacred Geography, renowned Harvard scholar Diana Eck offers an extraordinary spiritual journey through the pilgrimage places of the world's most religiously vibrant culture and reveals that it is, in fact, through these sacred pilgrimages that India’s very sense of nation has emerged.

No matter where one goes in India, one will find a landscape in which mountains, rivers, forests, and villages are elaborately linked to the stories of the gods and heroes of Indian culture. Every place in this vast landscape has its story, and conversely, every story of Hindu myth and legend has its place. Likewise, these places are inextricably tied to one another—not simply in the past, but in the present—through the local, regional, and transregional practices of pilgrimage.

India: A Sacred Geography tells the story of the pilgrim’s India. In these pages, Diana Eck takes the reader on an extraordinary spiritual journey through the living landscape of this fascinating country –its mountains, rivers, and seacoasts, its ancient and powerful temples and shrines. Seeking to fully understand the sacred places of pilgrimage from the ground up, with their stories, connections and layers of meaning, she acutely examines Hindu religious ideas and narratives and shows how they have been deeply inscribed in the land itself. Ultimately, Eck shows us that from these networks of pilgrimage places, India’s very sense of region and nation has emerged. This is the astonishing and fascinating picture of a land linked for centuries not by the power of kings and governments, but by the footsteps of pilgrims.

India: A Sacred Geography offers a unique perspective on India, both as a complex religious culture and as a nation. Based on her extensive knowledge and her many decades of wide-ranging travel and research, Eck's piercing insights and a sweeping grasp of history ensure that this work will be in demand for many years to come.

When will an Indian write such a book?And will it get published in India!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 02 Jul 2012 11:03

This lady is the one who organised removal of S Swamy from Harward giruji. You can know her by that. Yes she wrote about religion, but not about indic political thought which obviously she hates.