PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

[vina]

It is interesting to hear people here worrying about the safety issue of Shanghai Metro, despite the fact that railways in Bombay are killing innocents on today more than the Shanghai Metro did during the past 10 years and combined.

Whatever deaths that happen on the Bombay Suburban system is a true factual number. While the deaths that happen on the Shanghai metro system is probably 1) Never reported in it's entirety and 2) It is probably a "state secret" and anyone giving out the true number will face a long time in prison /le-ejjucashun camp/be executed.

[Suraj]

It is interesting to hear people here worrying about the safety issue of Shanghai Metro, despite the fact that railways in Bombay are killing innocents on today more than the Shanghai Metro did during the past 10 years and combined.

Asymmetry of information. Everything that happens in India, good and bad, gets press. The bad gets far more press because sensationalism sells in a free system with a free and competitive press needing to attract advertising dollars. The Chinese system enables it to project itself in the best possible light to the world, controlling information release in a manner no open society can, and project its good side while also controlling the discourse over its bad side. Therefore we will search for the bad and debate it on our terms, not the way China would like to ensure bad things about itself are discussed.

[Theo_Fidel]

I can tell you for sure that the construction fatalities in Pandaland alone are quite staggering. My colleague installs heavy roof top equipment and he worked on a 80 storey building complex where in a 6 month period he observed 17 fatalities. All on a single building complex. There was one particular day when a jig on a crane boom let go due to hurried mounting and the entire 20 ton unit crashed sideways and knocked 3 poor souls clear off the 60th floor. Injured 2 more as well. He was truly shaken up and left Panda for the USA thinking there would be a major inquiry and construction would be shut down for months. Yet the next day there was no mention of it in the press and the PM frantically called him demanding he report immediately to work as construction had only stopped for 2 hours to clean some of the blood and clear the bodies. My colleague still shakes his head over the PM's pride in dispatching the 'debris' so quickly. BTW I read one report on a construction site that had over 200 fatalities over 3 years. One can only imagine the carnage is when the unreported total is added up.

[wong]

Like I said, it's computer controlled. The computer drove off. That's why they had to notify the station attendant lady at the end. Teething problems. That train is still nicer than any American subway train.

Do you even understand what you are talking about ? For instance , the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) has been "driverless" and "computer controlled" ever since the day it rolled out and that wasn't 10 years ago , but nearly a full 40 years ago. The ATS/ATP/ATC kind of things go back nearly a 100 years and fully electronic modern versions go back some 50 years. Just because Panda managed to clone/steal some of those recently, doesn't mean it is some new hot sh*t.

For instance, all the metros in India (including the latest one in Bangalore) , have state of the art train signalling and control systems , that probably are better than anything anywhere in the world (yeah, they are brand new, the other systems in other parts of the world would have been in operation for some time, some going back decades) and yes, the doors do actually close before the trains run.

In fact, this "new signalling" kind of thing is the kind of root cause factors that enable economies like China, india and earlier S.Korea, S.E Asia to 'leap frog" and grow faster than more developed economies. You get the benefit of importing and using the stuff developed and someone else's learning curve and experience.

For eg, if you were to set up an airline today, you would buy A320 /B737 and that too the latest vintage, with latest engines, not the Puss Moth or Ford Trimotor kind of thing they started off with in 1910 /whenever. The fact with the kind of safety culture on display on the Shanghai metro, I would be mortally scared of flying any airline in PRC.

I was discussing the Washington Metro and comparing it to the Beijing Metro, capital to capital. It just so happens I lived in the east bay for many years, so I'm very familiar with the BART trains. They are the exact same 1970's Bombardier trains as the DC Metro. Even the ticketing system is exactly the same. No, they are NOT driverless. They are not fully automated like the Shanghai/Beijing subway system. They jerk, crash, breakdown and have fires just like the DC Metro.

This is a BART driver, sticking his head out and checking the doors closing just like a DC Metro driver. Who's the 3rd world here??

[wong]

And this is their ATS/ATP/ATC at work...
Did the updated 1970's code get outsourced overseas??

DC Metro 2009 (see the "M" Logo for DC Metro)

[vina]

It just so happens I lived in the east bay for many years, so I'm very familiar with the BART trains. They are the exact same 1970's Bombardier trains as the DC Metro. Even the ticketing system is exactly the same. No, they are NOT driverless.

Shows how aware of the world around you, you are ! Probably rode BART hundreds of times and didn't realize that BART is really "driverless" and the driver in the cab is for more safety /back up reasons!

They are not fully automated like the Shanghai/Beijing subway system. They jerk, crash, breakdown and have fires just like the DC Metro.

Ok. The "fully automated" trains in Shanghai and Beijing run with their doors open, but the attendent in the Bart train always makes sure that the doors close!

This is a BART driver, sticking his head out and checking the doors closing just like a DC Metro driver. Who's the 3rd world here??

You! They atleast have the sense to check that the doors close and ensure safety, while you run with open doors!

[wong]

^^^^^

Nope, that driver on the DC Metro is definitely driving, jerky starts/stops and all.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/dc/ ... ars/114683

[Theo_Fidel]

The driver on the BART is actually more of an attendant. I have seen him/her take the metro off-line to help a particularly slow moving handicapped/wheelchair individual get on. They then help secure the vehicle and help while getting off. On the DC metro they stick their heads out to make eye contact with the platform attendant. I think they are required to do this per operating procedures before departure. It would never be my case that the BART or DC metro are the pinnacle of achievement. But even 30 years ago they have a keen sense of not operating under fault mode.

It never fails to baffle me the twisting thinking that goes on inside the Panda brain.

- Chinese owns the world because people owe it some money.
- Panda can print all the money it wants because borrowing from yourself is the best practice.
- We are the 'leading' nation on this planet for 30 years.
- Foxconn worker in Panda & Chennai earn similar amounts but Panda is Super power. Super power I tell you. Silence.
- Operating a metro with open door is sign of first world efficiency. Not having the sensor to tell you it is open is sign of technological prowess.
- Stealing technology and making it work shoddily is glorious.
- Installing a machine that was SOP in the west 40 years ago is a sign the Panda is now far far ahead.
- Bright shiny buildings means that you must now be in a first world country.
- USA beat up Japan to 'revenge' Panda tail getting crushed.
- No.Ko is brilliant victory for Panda. Defeated USA & world....
- Beginning to catch up is winning the race, etc...

[wong]

^^^^

And the Indian brain never ceases to amaze my Panda brain. Mao never wrote about the human wave. The PLA denies ever using the human wave. US Army historian denies the existence of human wave attacks in Korea. But somehow, Indians just know even though they weren't even there. Amazing. One open door malfunction means all Chinese trains operate with open doors. Amazing.

[ashi]

BYD Wins European Electric Bus Orders for Netherlands Schiermonnikoog

The BYD buses are comparable to the buses now servicing Schiermonnikoog in terms of size – they are 40 feet long and can accommodate 60-70 passengers. However, the BYD electric bus can be charged at night and with a range of around 180 miles per charge it allows them to provide service all day without needing another charge.

[Theo_Fidel]

Add another.

- Admitting Pandaland is less than TFTA and admitting any error is strictly prohibited. Peachy!

[Yogi_G]

As for Soko vs. Noko. Noko was ahead economically until the late 1970's despite the US pumping billions into Soko. Soviet Union collapsed. The Kims are crazy and refuse economic reforms and the rest is history. Indians should be happy about Noko refusing reforms, because if they ever do, that giant sucking sounding is US, Japanese and Soko FDI leaving India for Noko. So, you are very welcome.

I just couldn't resist. Now I get it, India gets its FDI because the North Koreans are not democratic and have a cuckoo for a "dear" leader. Thank you deal fliend Wong, that nugget of information was somehow lost on our government, and we all along were fools to think India got FDI for the spirit, hard work and determination of our people.

This is a blow for Narendra Modi, the FDI coming into Gujarat is because of the "secular" deal leader of North Korea. Time to get all of us Indians in a line and cry for our being fools not to realize the obvious.

[wong]

^^^^

Yes, a North Korea that is free or reforming would be a giant capital vacuum. For South Koreans and Japanese (and Japan's huge Korean population), it's a no-brainer to give the money to North Korea vs. India. For the US, well, the US doesn't really even like India. It always sided with Pakistan. The number 1 India evangelist in the US is probably headed for jail as soon as tomorrow. Once Romney is elected, US-India relations should be back to historical norms.

[sha]

^ dear sha,

Looks like forum jingoes have deeply hurt your feelings. solly about that.

In any case, why do you expect accolades and to be feted and lauded on here anyway? That is something I don't understand. Is someone forcing you to come here? Else why bother unless CCP pays you an allowance to come and troll about

Dear Hari Seldon, .I'm baffled and have no idea what you were talking about. Sound you were barking up the wrong tree.

I visited the forum for the first time two years ago. No one forced me to the forum. It's my curiosity.
1. I saw some Indian movies then and I liked them very much. I wanted to know some culture background.
2. There were many eye-catching news about "India economy miracle" in the media, especiall in IT. I read a report on which a CEO from an India IT company said India was at least 20 years ahead of China in IT field, which left me in awe. I worked in IT field and I wanted to learn from India's success story.
3. I happened to read a post about India on Tianya( one of the most popular forum site in China) which said "Never and ever argue with India guys on India BR forum. They will take your IQ and insight down to their level and beat you down just on the level". I thought it must be a very interesting place( and it is indeed!).

So I came, I saw, I post.
Two years passed,
1. I still crazy about the fiscanating India movies.
2. I came to form an opinion that there was no "India miracle" and there will be no such thing, at least in near future.
3. I totally disagreen with the Tianya poster. India guys here are evry smart, well-informed and eloquent. I bileive no one can deny it. I have a growing admire for your guys.

We Indians for all the noise we make are fairly transparent. We berate & criticize our own government and society and shortcomings quite a lot. We praise what we see is genuine, sincere, sustainable progress made elsewhere. That's how we are and we owe that in no small measure to living in an open society and having to build consensus to get almost anything done.

Thanks for enlightening me. Democracy is great indeed. You're so lucky and how I envy you!

[Suraj]

What does the US liking or not liking India have to do with business ? We make a business case and we get money. Same for China. You guys have ICBMs pointed at each other and Chinese grunts still make the consumer electronics gadgets that Americans fall over each other to grab. Coulda/shoulda/would NoKo hypotheticals are just that. Fact remains that the place is a godforsaken mess run by a succession of megalomanic little fatsos.

[hnair]

Fact remains that the place is a godforsaken mess run by a succession of megalomanic little fatsos.

And china is run by soulless engineer geeks who never had to listen to public opinion. The older revolutionary generation at least had to fight for survival and learned something.

lovely couple of countries

[wong]

What does the US liking or not liking India have to do with business ? We make a business case and we get money. Same for China. You guys have ICBMs pointed at each other and Chinese grunts still make the consumer electronics gadgets that Americans fall over each other to grab. Coulda/shoulda/would NoKo hypotheticals are just that. Fact remains that the place is a godforsaken mess run by a succession of megalomanic little fatsos.

I don't profess to know the American psyche, but the trends are clear. Take the Philippines vs. Taiwan. Both are islands. Philippines was a former American colony. People there speak English and love American culture. Hosted all its major military bases. Supplied all the entertainment for its soldiers. Yet, Taiwan essentially got all the US FDI. Philippines got nothing. Why? This is even after Marcos took his cut, because Chiang Kai-shek took his cut too.

Korea and Japan has a long, long history of American FDI. North Korea as an American beachhead against China is just irresistible to Americans. The American money borrowed from
China will flow like mighty Mississippi into North Korea. Hey, I don't make the rules. The trends are just easy enough to spot.

[Suraj]

FDI != American FDI. Americans will invest where they want to invest, based on what suits them. They aren't the largest source of FDI into India. They're not even in the top 3.

I find both Japan and Korea's economic profile to be largely organic; their historical exports came from their own companies - the keiretsus and chaebols. China is a different creature in the sense that it's export engine was created using FDI money from the west and other PacRim tigers.

China welcoming American influence in NoKo presumes no one remembers the reason for the Korean War - China did NOT want US influence right at their border. I see no reason to presume that's changed.

[Raja Bose]

And this is their ATS/ATP/ATC at work...
Did the updated 1970's code get outsourced overseas??

DC Metro 2009 (see the "M" Logo for DC Metro)

I guess their third world inefficiency didn't allow them to efficiently bury the entire train with still live people trapped inside. They need to learn from panda how to be efficient!

[zlin]

very interesting piece of news
China Is No.1 (Or So Many People Believe)

Interestingly, Asian rival India has the least confidence in China’s economy of any country, at just 17 percent, with the largest number, 37 percent, choosing the U.S.

That tells a lot about many India's psychology toward China here in this forum.
And

Chinese for their part aren’t anywhere close to convinced they now lead: Just 29 percent think their country is now the world’s economic leader, compared with 26 percent in 2011. And this year 48 percent of Chinese chose the U.S., down slightly from the one-half who did last year.

[sudarshan]

What does the US liking or not liking India have to do with business ? We make a business case and we get money. Same for China. You guys have ICBMs pointed at each other and Chinese grunts still make the consumer electronics gadgets that Americans fall over each other to grab. Coulda/shoulda/would NoKo hypotheticals are just that. Fact remains that the place is a godforsaken mess run by a succession of megalomanic little fatsos.

I don't profess to know the American psyche, but the trends are clear. Take the Philippines vs. Taiwan. Both are islands. Philippines was a former American colony. People there speak English and love American culture. Hosted all its major military bases. Supplied all the entertainment for its soldiers. Yet, Taiwan essentially got all the US FDI. Philippines got nothing. Why? This is even after Marcos took his cut, because Chiang Kai-shek took his cut too.

Korea and Japan has a long, long history of American FDI. North Korea as an American beachhead against China is just irresistible to Americans. The American money borrowed from
China will flow like mighty Mississippi into North Korea. Hey, I don't make the rules. The trends are just easy enough to spot.

And the point of this post is -- what, exactly? If NoKo turns a new leaf, the US will take away all its money invested in India and move it to NoKo? And if the cats grew wings, we'd all have to deal with birdless skies, I'm sure. Why don't we worry about that next? And you were the one who not too long ago was telling us dirty *umble *indoos that we "lo-o-ve strawmen."

NoKo is your (Chinese) cat's paw, one of the few countries on your side (out of necessity, not love) -- besides our friendly neighbor, Pakistan. And here you are, gloating that the US is going to enter NoKo and make a mighty Mississippi of money flow there. Your foreign policy would be shot if that happened.

[KLP Dubey]

Lastly, considering the Chinese government collects almost 8 times the tax revenue of the Indian government, I guarantee you the Beijing subway is more paid for than Bangalore.

PM1:

The fact that you are reduced to showing pictures of Metro developments as 'proof' of the chinese economic 'miracle' tells a lot about how desperate you are. I hardly need to point out the absurdity of connecting government tax revenues with the viability of the transportation system.

Again, I have no idea why you present these statements as good news. It all gels with the general chinese drone mindset: government revenues can be freely used to 'pay for' all sorts of things that in normal economies should be supported otherwise. This continuing "bailout culture" is central to the Ponzi scheme that you and your other drone colleagues are trying to defend.

KL

[KLP Dubey]

{Deleted}

Are you truly that stupid to believe that these posts that you are making somehow further China's cause or its image ? Do you really think you are "doing your bit" to make Indians look deluded and yourselves look great ? Over the years I have referred many people (mainly non-Indians) with interest in Indian military/geopolitics/economy to BRF. All of them have come away with respect for the quality of discourse here, and a better of appreciation of what India is and where it is headed. Make no mistake, nobody in their right mind gives much credence to your BS propaganda posts. You all come off as singularly insecure and stupid liars. You are not helping your country or your commie masters' cause at all by doing this. Are you really that dense ?

Now for a moment let me give you a benefit of doubt that you are NOT stupid or mentally ill. In that case, *why on earth* would you all stay here for years (literally) to endure the day-in-and-day-out insults/online thrashings you get from us Indians, ON TOP OF the continuous harassment/prejudice/discrimination/insults/jokes that you and your countrymen endure from your long-time exploiter the white man? The only alternative explanation is that you all are somehow paid or otherwise compensated for "clocking in your time" here. In that case, you're welcome to "earn your keep" off an Indian website. We do not mind throwing you those scraps, since you truly entertain us and help our cause.

Just don't expect much respect (we know that is what you and your handlers crave online from others to make up for your inferiority complex in real life), and don't take it personally since we understand you are nothing but "bodies for hire" to spread propaganda. It is for this reason that your azzes have recently been "numbered" as listed above. I will update the list if any more crawl out of the woodwork.

Good luck and Namaskar,
Kishen Lal

[vina]

Yawn... Back to Regular Programming folks.
Mercury laced milk powder recalled in China

Inner Mongolia Yili Industrial Group Co. (600887), China’s largest dairy producer by market value, recalled some baby formula after finding “abnormal” levels of mercury in some of its products.

The recalled milk products were made between November 2011 and May 2012, Yili, based in the northern Chinese city of Hohhot, said on its website. The company’s stock fell by the daily limit in Shanghai.

And we will have apologists posting here about how China is #X in milk production and how one Chinese cow produces 3X Indian cow and how China milk has more "proteins" than you can imagine (like melamine) and how it has other "minerals" that you dont have (like mercury).. etc.etc. and how China really doesn't need cows to produce milk or chickens to lay eggs etc.

[wrdos]

Hmmm, milk is maybe the only commidity that the super consumer economy power of India consumes more than China.

[vina]

Hmmm, milk is maybe the only commidity that the super consumer economy power of India consumes more than China.

True. But then things like "edible melamine" , "essential minerals like mercury" are probably better not "consumed".

[Aditya_V]

Hmmm, milk is maybe the only commidity that the super consumer economy power of India consumes more than China.

and Pulses, Fruits, different types of vegetables, sugar, Gold etc.

Pork CHina will consume more

[Singha]

who consumes more rice n fish ?

p.s. its a trick question because India cannot lose on this one. if we consume more, we are anyways the worlds designated rich n fish SDRE, while others are tall, fair,meaty, wheaty...if we consume less, we are the TFTA and cheen is the sdre.

[Aditya_V]

I think China consumes more rice, fish, beaf, pork, wheat, But per capita the figures for rice and wheat are consufsing as it is counted by Grain. Now we Kerala Boiled RIce grain is much bigger than Sona Masuri Raw rice

[Singha]

I have no issues with them consuming more meat...let them eat all the meat they want. meat simply isnt that efficient or healthy a food for tropical climes. we are not rich enough to produce foodgrains or soya in industrial scale to feed huge meat farms.
I doubt any country on earth barring perhaps a few regions of east africa and brazil have the diversity of vegetables, fruits and edible leaves and grains that India has. each country must play to its intrinsic strengths.

that is perhaps why over millenia the indian definition of non-veg is NOT meat daily but more like 1-2 times over 14 weekly meals. and wherever fish is available it is preferred over meat like in eastern india.

[KLP Dubey]

Last edited by Suraj on 15 Jun 2012 12:22, edited 1 time in total.
Please stop characterizing other posters as simians.

Suraj,

Point taken - perhaps "numbering" is a little too extreme, but just for clarification "propaganda monkey" is not referring to the species of "vAnara" but rather to someone hired for a mechanical/mindless task (e.g., "oh, yeah - go talk to our computer support monkey"). Slightly off-color, I agree - but you are being "too kind/gentlemanly" to these fellas. You're the boss here though, and it's not that difficult to get them all riled up in other ways.

Best Wishes,
KL

[Singha]

a interesting read on expat job opportunities in china
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... e-scant#p1

[KLP Dubey]

On innovation and creativity, a pre-req for sustaining a vibrant economy. From what I've seen, China's government has been busy spending through the nose to create a large quantity of scientific output that is however, not useful.

As for India, several interesting points and action items going forward are noted:

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2012/04/05 ... reativity/

While in quantitative terms India’s performance pales behind the scorching pace set by China, India does considerably better than China in quality terms (as measured by citations per article)....

Few Indian companies are perceived to have the capacity to innovate disruptive technologies.
....
In contrast to India’s lacklustre performance in conventional measures, other sources are almost breathless about the seemingly boundless creative energy in India. Headlines like ‘India the world’s secret silicon valley’ and ‘India’s innovation stimulus’ herald a new type of innovative activity popularised variously as ‘frugal innovation’ or ‘Gandhian innovation’.
....
These statements point to a certain dynamism and creativity that is distinct from conventional measures such as publications and patents. What is the nature of this creativity and innovation and what are its sources? Why is India doing well on some (less conventional) indicators of creativity but much less well on more conventional measures?

http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2011-10 ... 584943.htm

Cong Cao, an expert on China's science and technology, put it more bluntly in an article he wrote: "When the paper bubble bursts, which will happen sooner or later, one may find that the real situation of scientific research in China probably is not that rosy."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/07/world ... wanted=all

A Lack of Integrity

China devotes significant resources to building a world-class education system and pioneering research in competitive industries and sciences, and has had notable successes in network computing, clean energy, and military technology. But a lack of integrity among researchers is hindering China’s potential and harming collaboration between Chinese scholars and their international counterparts, scholars in China and abroad say.

“If we don’t change our ways, we will be excluded from the global academic community,” said Zhang Ming, a professor of international relations at Renmin University in Beijing. “We need to focus on seeking truth, not serving the agenda of some bureaucrat or satisfying the desire for personal profit.”

[wong]

^^^^

Yes, a North Korea that is free or reforming would be a giant capital vacuum. For South Koreans and Japanese (and Japan's huge Korean population), it's a no-brainer to give the money to North Korea vs. India. For the US, well, the US doesn't really even like India. It always sided with Pakistan. The number 1 India evangelist in the US is probably headed for jail as soon as tomorrow. Once Romney is elected, US-India relations should be back to historical norms.

The jury is already back with a guilty verdict in less than 24 hrs just as I predicted. Yes, I'm good. This is significant because the dude invented Indian outsourcing at McKinsey.

Just like for the mafia, that conspiracy charge is really gonna hurt.

[KLP Dubey]

Rajat Gupta is an American citizen, not an Indian. Whether he was convicted or not has nothing to do with the US liking India or not. If he was the architect of "Indian outsourcing" at McKinsey, he was doing so primarily as a US person in promotion of US elite interests, not because of a great love of India. So what is your point exactly? Is the US doing India a favor instead ?

[svinayak]

Rajat Gupta is an American citizen, not an Indian. Whether he was convicted or not has nothing to do with the US liking India or not. If he was the architect of "Indian outsourcing" at McKinsey, he was doing so primarily as a US person in promotion of US elite interests, not because of a great love of India. So what is your point exactly? Is the US doing India a favor instead ?

McKinsey is an american company with Indian branch.

[hnair]

celebrations over transparent legal systems in some other countries. charming.

Taking that joke about RG being the architect of outsourcing further. So in drone-speak, who is the architect of manufacturing shift to China? Dalai Llama?

"the Dalai-clique deviously made the chinese worker to die early to be reincarnated forever in sweatshops"

All US officials from Prez Obama keeps saying they 1) they don't like India 2) shower pakistan with daily dose of drone-missiles of love and hugs China by giving India those C17s, P8Is, carrier landing tech..... and the rest of the horrible stuff.

We desperately need PekingENIS thread to dissect these profundities

[sudarshan]

Rajat Gupta is an American citizen, not an Indian. Whether he was convicted or not has nothing to do with the US liking India or not. If he was the architect of "Indian outsourcing" at McKinsey, he was doing so primarily as a US person in promotion of US elite interests, not because of a great love of India. So what is your point exactly? Is the US doing India a favor instead ?

Haven't you figured it out yet? Wong doesn't have a point. His idea is simply to pour vitriol on India and Indians in any possible way.

Gloating about how the "US doesn't like India," like India is in some popularity contest. Is it the case that countries do business with each other because of some deep underlying love for each other? Some person of Indian origin is convicted in the US, and that gives comrade Wong his ammunition to use against India. Scoring cheap points is what it's all about, apparently. Anything to maintain Chinese face, eh, Wong?

Indian posters make genuine posts (or what we believe to be genuine posts, based on the information we have) on the state of the Chinese economy. Melamine- and mercury-laced milk is a genuine concern, but we dirty Indians are not supposed to point those out - how dare we uppity *indoos talk back against the glorious PRC? We are all supposed to uniformly admire the PRC, or rather the great Communist Party in charge there. If we don't, the comrades will come out with whatever dirt they can find on India, and try to rub our noses in it. Dirt on India is easy to find - very few people in India try to hide our shortcomings. Indians will be the first to bad-mouth India. But that point will be lost on our comrades.

Here's a hint for you comrades - not that I expect you to take it. In India, we're aware of the smelly, beggar-infested streets and our crumbly infrastructure. We're also aware of the progress that's happening in spite of all this, and we do try to identify our shortcomings and deal with them. We don't go into denial like you folks do, and we don't think it's our patriotic duty to defend our ruling party at any cost.

This is a China-related thread, and Indian posters here *are* concerned about the way you use half the world's resources (literally, half the cement and the copper) just to keep your growth rates up. And the growth rates are kept up, because to not do so would spell disaster for your Communist Party - not out of any concern for the poor Chinese people. We do admire the great achievements you guys have made so far, but we don't think it's sustainable.

The China-related news that's posted here mostly has a negative slant to it, but that is only to be expected, given the policy that your government has been following to date, which is, to arm India's neighbors with nuclear and missile technology, to try and surround India and box her into the Indian ocean, to recklessly claim and annex territory from each of your neighbors (let alone India), to walk into neutral countries (Tibet/Uighurstan) and to threaten to walk into more (Taiwan). Not to mention inciting and arming Maoist rebellions in India and Nepal, and making every attempt to interfere in the democratic process of neighbors, wherever possible. If your government were to behave in a more mature way, you'd see a lot of Indian antagonism melt away right there. If Indian posters are reflexively hostile to you guys, then you have nobody else to blame, but your greedy, inhuman government.

But feel free to ignore all this and go into a diatribe on how some slum worker in Mumbai couldn't find a proper toilet, and had to take a leak on the airport runway instead.

[KLP Dubey]

celebrations over transparent legal systems in some other countries. charming.

Nair,

Perfectly correct.

Drones,

You forgot to mention that the Manhattan US attroney who staked his reputation on convicting Gupta is a "dude" named Preet Bharara, another "Indian" (from da Poon-jab) who made it his mission to "find and prosecute graft in the US financial system". So extending your perverted logic further, this should be a "Indian versus Indian" case, yes ?

As a matter of fact, it is nothing of the sort. It is in fact a cause for admiration of two things:

(1) The US legal system actually works and delivers justice, unlike the joke of a legal system in China where CPC/PLA goons do whatever they feel like and the common man is summarily shafted.

(2) "Indians" have no qualms in rapping other "Indians" if it involves pursuing fairness and justice. I know only too well how much "loss of face" the chinese community would feel if one "chinese" publicly targeted another in the US. It's a pathetic cultural shortcoming to say the least.

Your posts claiming that this is a "loss for India" are obviously pure BS and nonsense. Nobody in their right mind reading this thread gives any credence to your claims. Again, you are hurting (and not helping) your country's nefarious causes by your presence here.

On the other hand, some real examples of "Chinese" with the same "help-China-by-cheating-and-lying " mentality as the drones here getting a taste of the "white man's justice":

http://phys.org/news/2012-01-scientist- ... inese.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/0 ... 74396.html

A victory for the US legal system and a national shame indeed for China!

Good day and Namaskar,
KL

[Theo_Fidel]

Guys,

You are talking to the CPC. Just to remind people, BRF is banned in Panda land. Has been for a looong time.

Actual Chinese people are some of the most simple and self effacing types one can meet, both in China & Abroad. They detest the CPC with a venom Indians can never match. I would hate for Indians to get the wrong impression of China & the Chinese based on the twisted paid for drones who post here. We have no issue with China & the Chinese, our problems are with Panda wonderland and the dark overlords.

We love yanking their tail and lack of humor and they love beating the party line, atleast that has been the rules recently, the post Jyang period.....