Artillery Discussion Thread

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Jun 2012 10:32

While accidents do happen, one can not help wondering how these kind of things happen. Remember entire AWACS team of DRDO few years back.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Jun 2012 11:39

Singha wrote:a hit and run truck driver in delhi also killed the IN navy commander who had red flagged radar problems in INS talwar and refused to accept it until fixed.

the claws of the arms lobbies reach very deep indeed.

Is this also a hit and run case or has the truck driver been arrested?

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 18 Jun 2012 14:43

Tragic loss, The Arjun is inducted, not yet in large numbers but inshallah, army will be pleased with MK-2 enough to order around 1000 of these beasts after the trials.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Jun 2012 03:23

yeah sarabhai, homi bhabha, the in officer, the airavat team, the ISRO team, the nambi episode - RAW has given a free pass to all these people

gkriish · Post by **gkriish** » 19 Jun 2012 07:44

i have one question on artillery ..........if india can manufacture the guns for m77 indian version that means that they can mount it on wheeled tata or tracked arjun chassis and have a 45 caliber 155 mm mobile gun and can also revisit on bhim which has been stopped after daniel was blacklisted..... just change the gun and if i am not wrong the caliber represents the length of the barrel is it ...... some oldies please enlighten me on this.......

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Jun 2012 09:36

This tit-bit was buried in another headlined article.

...

Meanwhile, commenting on the assurance by the Indian Army to place an order for 140 numbers of 155 mm, 52 calibre howitzers — currently under development at city’s ARDE— if proven in field trials, Saraswat said, “The decision has come three days back. ARDE, Pune has been working on the design for the past one year. The designs are in a review stage and users as well as Quality Assurance agencies are being involved in the process. It is a national program and private industries will be involved in the development of sub systems and components. We are trying to bring in the best gun system. Two prototypes will be developed and tested. It should take about 6- 7 years for the development.”

...

So looks like the indigenous 155mm 52 calibre howitzers will be ready in 2018/19.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 19 Jun 2012 09:46

By that time some company from XYZ country will be ready to sell it to us and we will be back to square one...testing testing....more testing...even more testing...and they will ask for some capability that will take another few years to develop and test...so even by 2020 it wont be inducted

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 19 Jun 2012 13:42

Heavy Artillery battalion moved to LoC as Pak shells Poonch posts again
SOURCE: Tribune india

Pakistani troops today violated ceasefire for the fourth time in the last five days and pounded Indian posts along the Line of Control (LoC) with mortar shells in Poonch district, promoting the Army to move an artillery battalion to forward posts in Krishna Ghati (KG) sector.

Reliable sources told The Tribune that an artillery battalion has been moved from Mendhar to effectively check possible infiltration attempts by militants from across the border besides dealing with frequent “misadventures of a hostile neighbour.”

The fresh violation, 16th this year, resulted in injuries to Sepoy Kundan Singh of 3 Grenadiers.

“Last night, around 10.15 pm, Pakistani troops opened heavy fire on our posts in KG sector using mortars and automatic weapons. Initially, the intensity was low but from 11.15 onwards, they started firing mortars, forcing us to give them an effective response,” said an Army spokesperson. The exchange of fire continued till 12.30 am.

At least 12 Indian posts were targeted by 653 Mujahid Regiment of the Pak Rangers, who used rocket launchers, heavy machine gun and UBGL grenades, said official sources. “Pak Rangers opened fire from Daku, Battal, Roza and Pimple posts opposite KG sector,” they added. The Pakistani troops have so far violated the truce four times since June 13 resulting in killing of two soldiers Lance Naik Harvinder Singh and BSF jawan PK Mishra. Three soldiers have been injured.

“In the last five days, Pakistani troops have been continuously targeted our forward posts. Therefore, the Army, which exercised maximum restraint to de-escalate the situation, has now moved an artillery battalion from Mendhar to forward posts in KG sector,” revealed sources.

Yesterday, the Pak Rangers had refused to attend a crucial flag meeting at Chakan-da-Bagh trade point.

According to sources, the Pakistan Army and the ISI have moved militants very close to the LoC with an aim to help them cross over to the Indian side. However, they have not succeeded and were targeting forward Indian posts in sheer frustration.

wilson_th · Post by **wilson_th** » 19 Jun 2012 14:16

Is it just a coincidence , Paki's have started this firing after the meeting on Siachin failed(india didn't give any concession to Pakis)

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 19 Jun 2012 14:51

wilson_th wrote:Is it just a coincidence , Paki's have started this firing after the meeting on Siachin failed(india didn't give any concession to Pakis)

No it is not! They are plain desperate, the window for pushing in militants is closing fast without any success so far. And getting Siachen on a platter for free has also been illusive, so in frustration, the pigs are doing such things. Heavy handed response to such incidents would teach them a lesson not to repeat it, but the govt of today is in no mood to escalate with their peace dreams! So the IA has to give only prompt/effective response and hope for deescalation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2012 15:11

why do u say the window is closing. the snows would have melted in higher reaches only in last week of may...there is time until september for sure...

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 19 Jun 2012 17:26

Singha,

Traditionally, the infiltration attempts concentrate through June-July-August, or so I had learned, because the militants would be waiting patiently for the snow to melt and then try rushing in. Already July has come with no major successes and all is calm in Kashmir. Desperation is mounting. Anyways, off topic for here, I guess we can move this to another thread.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 19 Jun 2012 20:22

Why is Krishna Ghati SS always the focal point in LoC ceasefire violation?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Jun 2012 20:45

^^^

The other explanation might be that the TSPA wants a bogy of IA to the east in order to rally the faith fools.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Jun 2012 10:30

...

Meanwhile, commenting on the assurance by the Indian Army to place an order for 140 numbers of 155 mm, 52 calibre howitzers — currently under development at city’s ARDE— if proven in field trials, Saraswat said, “The decision has come three days back. ARDE, Pune has been working on the design for the past one year. The designs are in a review stage and users as well as Quality Assurance agencies are being involved in the process. It is a national program and private industries will be involved in the development of sub systems and components. We are trying to bring in the best gun system. Two prototypes will be developed and tested. It should take about 6- 7 years for the development.”

...

So If DRDO proves its gun after hundrreds of trials then it will get order for 140 guns out of requirement of 5000 guns, great!

jai · Post by **jai** » 20 Jun 2012 11:25

The merry go round continues ..def min needs 6 sigma and lean

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 20 Jun 2012 19:13

The procurement mafia will not allow any local products to succeed in IA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jun 2012 21:21

each project must also employ Agile, have a daily scrum, monthly iterative demos to users starting with the wheels and working up to the barrel, have a failsafe datacenter for development data, and employ big data analytics to identify synergies and opportunities for phased QIP.
summarized here http://professionalsuperhero.com/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jun 2012 22:17

vic, The low number(140) is to setup the tooling and proofing the fabrication process. The two prototypes are for development and testing. Then comes the factory production batch. After that the regular production. Note the low number is contingent on successful trials.

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Jun 2012 08:35

After successful trials order of 140 does not make sense. I can understand 140 before trials but after trials it has to be something like 2000

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jun 2012 21:36

No. The trials are with development units. If successful a small number is ordered to set up the tooling and factory production line. Sort of production qualification orders. After that comes the full scale production orders. And it might be an annual qty and not for the full numbers at one fell swoop.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 21 Jun 2012 23:33

krishnan wrote:By that time some company from XYZ country will be ready to sell it to us and we will be back to square one...testing testing....more testing...even more testing...and they will ask for some capability that will take another few years to develop and test...so even by 2020 it wont be inducted

Probable! If we can guess how the 'system' going to react, then those who intimately associated with such developments can take certain steps to mitigate such outcome.

Three years back, chaiwalla news is that they can come up with a gun in short possible time. Once OFB start making progress, just a wild guess, such a long development time could mean, the system in development will be futuristic.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 Jun 2012 10:57

Its not whether OFB can come out with a good product ...its whether the user is willing to accept it....

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jun 2012 11:22

krishnan wrote:Its not whether OFB can come out with a good product ...its whether the user is willing to accept it....

Why is the production capability of OFB not an issue here?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Jun 2012 12:44

Advantages of large order are forgotten in Indian defence set up. When we know we need 200 plus systems, what is rational about a 140 system order with out commitment for 2000 units provided required parameters are met. Same kinds of small orders are given for LCA, arjun or even for naval ships. What is the use of talk for long terms planing?

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 24 Jun 2012 21:29

hope not posted before but slightly old.

THE INDIAN ARMY AND ITS ARTILLERY by DEBALINA CHATTERJEE

added later :

Artillery Modernisation : The Time for Action is Now - By Lt Gen B S Pawar (Retd)

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 10 Jul 2012 10:19

DRDO, Army working on futuristic artillery gun

We are proposing to develop a futuristic gun in consultation with the Army. We are in dialogue with the Army for some of the new technologies we are proposing to introduce into this gun, for example a special coating for the barrel to enhance its life, the smart recoil system with rheological fluid or an electrical drive to elevate and traverse the gun. We are in dialogue with the Army to finalise the Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQR) hopefully in the next couple of months. We have already started design work and will modify the design to suit the PSQR.

Since these are new technologies, we expect in about four to five years time we should be ready with a prototype for user trials, followed by summer and winter trials. Production could commence in about nine to 10 years' time. So the development cycle is 5-7 years including evaluation by the Army.

We want to try new technology in the area of recoil. The standard recoil systems are hydro-pneumatic but we are looking at an electro rheological liquid which has adaptive viscosity characteristics. So it will have adaptive damping, you will get a smooth consistent recoil no matter what the weight of the shell and what range you are firing at. That makes for a more reliable recoil system. The PSQRs demand new technology such as barrel coating. So the plan is to first build the barrel using current technologies and then try coating. Once that barrel development technology has matured, we can add new technologies and improve its performance. A number of foreign firms are willing to offer the coating technology. We are in dialogue but nothing has been firmed up yet. In order to cut down on time, we may get the technology from abroad, especially about the barrel coating and the recoilless system.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 12 Jul 2012 08:54

New Delhi. The Indian Army has finally initiated its long desired plans to modernise its artillery with the recent announcement of 145 M777 Howitzers, after a lull of twenty six years.

The primary application of these Howitzers will be mountainous, remote and environmentally hostile terrain and will be critical to incorporate munitions that provide an extended range and precision capability.

Raytheon has offered the Excalibur 155mm Precision Guided Extended Range Artillery Projectile for this gun. Also known as the M982 ER DPICM (Extended Range Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions) Projectile, is a fire and forget, smart munition. It is intended to provide the Army with a capability to attack all three key target sets, soft and armored vehicles, and reinforced bunkers, out to ranges exceeding current 155mm family of artillery munitions.

Excalibur for limiting collateral damage and giving unprecedented precision capability

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 12 Jul 2012 12:06

^^^ Why 45 caliber? I thought the IA had finally settled on 155 mm and 52 caliber as being std? ( Light artillery for Mtn. areas being an exception).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2012 12:08

less project risk.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 13 Jul 2012 14:03

From twitter. TIFWIW

>>@sisir_gupta Gen V K declared PNG. Was told that Ind Embassy had discouraged ppl, think tanks 2 meet him during his US trip

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 13 Jul 2012 22:53

Can you translate that from "twittery" to english for twitterially chellanged, pl?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Jul 2012 23:06

PNG => Persona non Grata, 2=> to, ppl => people, TIFWFW => Take it for what it's worth

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 13 Jul 2012 23:47

That's strange.. Any other source to authenticate this tweet?? if legitimate, Why has he been declared Persona Non Grata??

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Jul 2012 23:49

The PNG thing is figurative. The Indian embassy cannot declare anyone an actual PNG in the US.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2012 07:40

MOD has scrapped the BEML + Zuzana 155mm product deal after finding that ravi rishi of tatra sipox fame was also in this new venture.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jul 2012 08:29

^these lessons should actually act as basis to fix the underlying loopholes. if these happens again, then we have to acknowledge something more serious problem.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jul 2012 08:39

Singha wrote:MOD has scrapped the BEML + Zuzana 155mm product deal after finding that ravi rishi of tatra sipox fame was also in this new venture.

And the saga continues ( just the year this happens keeps changing cyclically)

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 18 Jul 2012 09:20

sum wrote:
Singha wrote:MOD has scrapped the BEML + Zuzana 155mm product deal after finding that ravi rishi of tatra sipox fame was also in this new venture.

And the saga continues ( just the year this happens keeps changing cyclically)

As part of confidence building with China and Pakistan the Indian MoD is committed to stalling any and all overmatch programs with respect to those two countries. This means that arty will never get done until those countries are significantly overmatching us.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2012 09:53

afaik this was one of the JVs in the works. BEML by virtue of being a well fed Munna was apparently hoping to get this deal on a non-tender basis but it seems IA wants a tender based competition in which the others like M&M, OFB who have tied up with global vendors will also compete.
so it may not be a huge loss - in any case, the way BEML operates the cost would have been high, payoffs all over the place and TOT would be zero to minimal into domestic industry (ie beml itself).
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 023923.cms

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ctra-group

its good this thing got scrapped now, rather than go ahead, believe in the cause , only to have it fall apart under scams and mishandling 3 yrs from now.