Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Sanku
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Sanku » 20 Jun 2012 15:38

RajeshA wrote:Disclaimer: As I said, just some speculation. Take it for what it is. I don't have any evidence beyond what I have said here.


Brilliant.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 20 Jun 2012 15:53

Regarding horse, also how does one know which species Rg Veda was referring to? they insist caballus, because they might have found the remains in Steppes, hence the insistence, anything else will fall flat. It could be even an ass as Bji said. I think if they insist Caballus, then they have to prove irrevocably (because they insist on this everytime we give them evidence) that Rg Veda indeed mentioned this species and no other, else any horse species is fine.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 16:13

venug wrote:Regarding horse, also how does one know which species Rg Veda was referring to? they insist caballus, because they might have found the remains in Steppes, hence the insistence, anything else will fall flat. It could be even an ass as Bji said. I think if they insist Caballus, then they have to prove irrevocably (because they insist on this everytime we give them evidence) that Rg Veda indeed mentioned this species and no other, else any horse species is fine.


The way I see it is not to demand the fixing of the species, but to point out the lengths people have gone to disagree with anyone who expresses a shadow of doubt about the non Indian origins of the people who created the Rig Veda.

Is the Rig veda in india?
Yes. It was only compiled there

What about river names? What about Sapta Sindhu and saraswati.
Oh you are forgetting Haraxwati in Afghanistan and Hapta Handu. All outside India

What about the traditions, the gods the names?
India is from outside india? Where are the horses>

Oh horse remains are there in India.
No. We need caballus

OK we have caballus
Where is the evidence of domestication? Where are the chariots

Chariots were known to India in the Harappan civilization
Rubbish. They pulled oxen. They had solid wheels

You see the people who raise these objections will bring up new ones each time you play their game . And the horse species game is their game. it is a "You farted" game. They have the initiative.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 20 Jun 2012 16:20

What the AIT proponents cannot demand:
  1. That the words "Aśvaḥ" and "Ratha" need to have been coined before the 'PIE' dispersal started. Why is it required that after dispersal, people of geographically distant tribes cannot not meet or interact or trade?
  2. 'Indo-Aryans' along with other Aryans were responsible for the domestication of the horse. There is hardly any evidence of any Aryan literature speaking of the natural environment of the horse and they themselves cohabiting with it. The horse could have been traded like any other commodity, and have been brought in from Central Asia.
  3. That the horse need to have been in abundance from where ever the Rigvedic Aryans had migrated from (could be India) and were ostensibly carrying memories from that place. Horse was simply a privileged animal considering its attributes and the fact that only the royalty used to have any and not the whole army.
  4. That the horse spoken of Aśvaḥ spoken of in Rigveda was indeed equus caballus. It can be any horse or ass.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_20317 » 20 Jun 2012 16:27

Atri ji already discussed that

ManishH ji choose to highlight the 'not used for war'

I pasted the full quote which showed a picking and choosing of words.

Basically from 'no horse' stance the AIT/AMT has moved to 'no war horse' while we are adding a 'yet' to their new stance considering:
1) Bokonyi restricts his comment to the only sample shown to him; and
2) It is the AIT/AMT that keeps jumping about.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 16:29

Why do we not find remains of every dead tree or dead animal on the surface of the earth? It because dead organic matter rapidly eaten by animals, bacteria and fungi. Animals bacteria and fungi normally have three basic requirements

1. Oxygen
2. Water
3. Temperature high enough for living organisms

If you bury an object and the conditions of burial ensure the absence of one or more of the three above, there is a fair chance that the buried organic matter may survive for centuries, even millennia. Some parts of the world seem to have better preserved remains than others - like peat bogs and permafrost.

If you were lucky enough to bury your grandfather more than 5 years ago, your homework for today will be to go dig up his grave and check what is left of his body. if you are Hindu and you cremated your grandfather, write 1000 times "There is no horse but horse and caballus is his name"

The survival of wood or bones from 3000 or more years ago is pure chance. I would guess that not more than 1% of all organic remains can survive after 100 years, an after 3000 years I suspect that the percentage of remains is less than one in a million. Guessing the past from such small samples is just that. Guesswork. The presence of evidence is always thrilling. But the absence means nothing. If I dig beneath where I am now and find no human remains, it does not mean that no humans ever set foot before in the area where I now sit.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 20 Jun 2012 16:51

You see the people who raise these objections will bring up new ones each time you play their game . And the horse species game is their game. it is a "You farted" game. They have the initiative.


Hence it would be good to not give long ropes to oiropeans and white nazi type indologists (good indologists white or non-whites will always be respected). Never to give more than required respect. But.... uff... Atithi Devo Bhava:, wth, Indianness kills.

The next game is to
re-claim sulvasutra from pythagoras'. they have already 'farted' initiative

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 20 Jun 2012 17:11

Lets say we take for granted that horse domestication and chariot technology happened first in Steppes. So these pioneers came all the way riding their chariots into India. Now this can be in the form of invasion or migration. But where are the remains of these chariots in IVC? no proof of even that? so by the same logic they use to deny chariots horse remains weren't found in India hence no chariots and true horse in India, then lack of chariot remains in IVC also should mean AIT/AMT never happened? what makes them not make the same logical statements and be truthful to their own reason?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 17:27

Controversies in dating the Rig Veda
http://controversialhistory.blogspot.in ... -G7JOoexB0
Astronomy
Rigveda and all other ancient books contain several statements of astronomical significance like the position of Sun in the Zodiac on the two equinoxes, vernal or spring equinox and autumn equinox. Indian Astronomy is based on sidereal Zodiac. The Zodiac is divided into 27 roughly equal segments, all are measuring 130 20' of arc. The seventh mandala of the Rigveda records the vernal equinox in Mrigashira Constellation pointing to a date around 4000 BCE - a fact noted by Jacobi and Tilak. Again several Shulba Sūtrās declare that a pole star is visible. Since a visible pole star occurs only at certain epochs, such a citation gives a normal range of dates for that event. The astronomical dates put the dates before 4000BC.

Silver & Cotton
Again Rigveda does not mention either silver or cotton. Since the date of cotton is well established, again we get a lower bound on the Rig Vedic date.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 20 Jun 2012 17:28

It is difficult to prove to someone who has already made up his/her mind to not to listen. And like murugan ji and shiv ji said we are playing their game. Strange. I feel violated :). A thief comes to my house takes my things and claims them they belong to him and now it is my responsibility and headache to prove to 'him' they are mine. You tell me the thief should be a moron to first steal your things and then when you indeed muster the courage and prove to him that the things he stole are indeed yours, agrees that they are yours and returns them back?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 20 Jun 2012 17:44

There are people like Rajesh Kochchar and Romila Thapar who believe that the Vedic people migrated from the Haraxvati (Saraswati) region in Afghanistan and not the mythical Saraswati flowing underground through Rajasthan. It seems this replacing 's' with 'h' is prevalent in some parts of Rajasthan and Assam even today. One point of view is that it is not possible to find which one came first based on language traits.


From the article posted by shiv ji, this Kochar guy thinks that Kurukshetra is somewhere near Indus, imagine that. Anything for the sake of AIT/AMT. And supposedly he is also an astrophysicist. That puzzles me. He can reason much better than many, he sees evidence, so he knows the pulse of the culture, tradition and geography and yet he is not an Indian and looses all logic when it comes to AIT/AMT.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Jun 2012 17:57

venug wrote:Regarding horse, also how does one know which species Rg Veda was referring to? they insist caballus, because they might have found the remains in Steppes, hence the insistence, anything else will fall flat. It could be even an ass as Bji said. I think if they insist Caballus, then they have to prove irrevocably (because they insist on this everytime we give them evidence) that Rg Veda indeed mentioned this species and no other, else any horse species is fine.


We know the Aswa they sacrificed had an extra pair of ribs.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Jun 2012 18:08

rajeshji, nice hypotheses

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Jun 2012 18:08

The Pandavas had to burn down the jungle to build Indraprastha. Even as late as Babar, the region around Ayodhya was heavily forested. I surmise that in 1500 BC the Gangetic plain was heavily forested and am not sure what military value chariots would have had there. Warfare must have been rather ceremonial for the most part - you find a bare patch of land like Kurukshetra, transport your chariots to that place, and fight there. Whoever wins controls all the area, (where as a rule, the chariots cannot go). It is not clear to me why if there were indigenous versus immigrant battles, both sides would agree to these rules.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 20 Jun 2012 18:09

Gupta ji, strange part is there is nothing that will convince them, they now say two things about the rib count. a) rib count can vary in the same species b) 34 ribs could be a reference to Gods not ribs. Now you produce evidence they will trash it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 20 Jun 2012 18:19

If Steppe aryans were the pioneers of chariots and they were mobile because they had to cover long distances which horses and chariots alone can do the job and say Indian subcontinent had any, then logically you should be seeing lot of chariot remains because according to Manish ji wood doesn't necessarily decompose and disappear, so you should find lot of chariot and horse remains in Steppes, wonder what ratio of finds is between Steppes and India?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 20 Jun 2012 18:28

I am posting an article by David Frawley (Pandit Vamadeva)

Vedic Origins of the Europeans: The Children of Danu

This article shows how the Proto-European Aryans, like the Celts, were originally a Vedic people called the Danavas or Sudanavas (good Danavas) connected to Vedic kings, sages and yogis. It is adapated from Frawley's Rig Veda and the History of India.

Image

Many ancient European peoples, particularly the Celts and Germans, regarded themselves as children of Danu, with Danu meaning the Mother Goddess, who was also, like Sarasvati in the Rig Veda, a river Goddess. The Celts called themselves "Tuatha De Danaan", while the Germans had a similar name. Ancient European river names like the Danube and various rivers called Don in Russia, Scotland, England and France reflect this. The Danube which flows to the Black Sea is their most important river and could reflect their eastern origins.

In fact, the term Danu or Danava (the plural of Danu) appears to form the substratum of Indo-European identity at the base of the Hellenic, Illyro-Venetic, Italo-Celtic, Germanic and Balto-Slavic elements. The northern Greeks were also called Danuni. Therefore, the European Aryans could probably all be called Danavas.

According to Roman sources, Tacitus in his Annals and Histories, the Germans claimed to be descendants of the Mannus, the son of Tuisto. Tuisto relates to Vedic Tvasthar, the Vedic father-creator Sky God, who is also a name for the father of Manu (RV X.17.1-2). This makes the Rig Vedic people also descendants of Manu, the son of Tvashtar.

In the Rig Veda, Tvashtar appears as the father of Indra, who fashions his thunderbolt (vajra) for him (RV X.48.3). Yet Indra is sometimes at odds with Tvashtar because is compelled to surpass him (RV III.48.3-4). Elsewhere Tvashtar's son is Vishvarupa or Vritra, whom Indra kills, cutting off his three heads (RV X.8.8-9), (TS II.4.12, II.5.1). Indra slays the dragon, Vritra, who lays at the foot of the mountain withholding the waters, and releases the seven rivers to flow into the sea. In several instances, Vritra is called Danava, the son of the Goddess Danu who is connected to the sea (RV I.32.9; II.11.10; III.30.8; V.30.4; V.32).

In the Brahmanas Vishvarupa/Vritra is the son of Danu and Danayu, the names of his mother and father (SB I.6.3.1, 8, 9). Clearly Vritra is Vishvarupa, the son of the God Tvashtar and the Goddess Danu. Danava also means a serpent or a dragon (RV V.32.1-2), which is not only a symbol of wisdom but of power and both Vedic and ancient European lore have their good and bad dragons or serpents.

In this curious story both Indra and Vritra appear ultimately as brothers because both are sons of Tvashtar. We must also note that Tvashtar fashions the thunderbolt for Indra to slay Vritra (RV I.88.5). Indra and Vritra represent the forces of expansion and contraction or the dualities inherent in each one of us. They are both inherent in Tvashtar and represent the two sides of the Creator or of creation as knowledge and ignorance. As Vritra is also the son of Tvashtar and Danu, Indra must ultimately be a son of Danu as well. Both the Vedic Aryans and the Proto-European Aryans are sons of Tvashtar, who was sometimes not the supreme God but a demiurge that they must go beyond.

The Danavas in the Puranas (VaP II.7) are the sons of the Rishi Kashyapa, who there assumes the role of Tvashtar as the main father creator. Kashyapa is a great rishi connected to the Himalayas. He is the eighth or central Aditya (Sun God) that does not leave Mount Meru (Taittiriya Aranyaka I.7.20), the fabled world mountain. Kashyapa is associated with Kashmir (Kashyapa Mira or Kashyapa's lake) and other Himalayan regions (the Vedic lands of Sharyanavat and Arjika, RV IX.113.1-2), which connects the Danavas to the northwest. The Caspian Sea may be named after him as well. The Proto-Europeans, therefore, are the sons of Tvashtar or Kashyapa and Danu, through their son Manu. They are both Manavas and Danavas, as also Aryas.

In the Rig Veda, Danu like Dasyu refers to inimical people and is generally a term of denigration (RV I.32.9; III.30.8; V.30.4; V.32.1, 4, 7; X.120.6). The Danavas or descendants of Danu are generally enemies of the Vedic people and their Gods. Therefore, just as the Deva-Asura or Arya-Dasyu split is reflected in the split between the Vedic Hindus and the Persians, one can propose that the Deva-Danava split reflects another division in the Vedic people, including that between the Proto-Indian Aryans and the Proto-European Aryans. In this process the term Danu was adopted by the Proto-Europeans and became denigrated by later Vedic people.

We should also remember that in the Puranas (VaP II.7), as in the Vedas the term Danavas refer to a broad group of peoples, many inimical, but others friendly, as well as various mythical demons. In the Rig Veda, the Danavas are called amanusha or unhuman (RV II.11.10) as opposed to human, Manusha. The Europeans had similar negative beings like the Greek Titans or Celtic Formorii who correspond more to the mythical side of the Danavas as powers of darkness, the underworld or the undersea region like the Vedic Asuras and Rakshasas. Such mythical Danavas can hardly be reduced to the Proto-European Aryans or to any single group of people.

The Celtic scholar Peter Ellis notes, "Irish epic contains many episodes of the struggle between the Children of Domnu, representing darkness and evil, and the Children of Danu, representing light and good. Moreover, the Children of Domnu are never completely overcome or eradicated from the world. Symbolically, they are the world. The conflict is between the ‘waters of heaven' and the ‘world.'" The same thing could be said of the Vedic wars of Devas and Danavas or the Puranic/Brahmana wars of Devas and Asuras.

The Good Danavas (Sudanavas)

The Maruts in the Puranas (VaP II.6.90-135) are called the sons of Diti, a wife of Kashyapa, who is sometimes equated with Danu. Her children are called the Daityas which term we have found also connected to the Persians, as the name of the river in their original homeland (Vendidad Fargard I.3). While meant to be enemies of Indra, the Maruts came to be his companions and were great Gods in their own right, often referring to the Vedic rishis and yogis. As wind Gods they had control of Prana and other siddhis (occult powers). They are also the sons of Rudra-Shiva called Rudras, much like the Shaivite Yogis of later times. They were great sages (RV VI.49.11), men (manava) with tongues of fire and eyes of the Sun (RV I.89.7). They were free to travel all over the world and were not obstructed by mountains, rivers or seas (RV V.54.9; V.55.9).

The Rig Veda contains many instances where Danu has a positive meaning indicating abundance or even standing for divine in general. Danucitra, meaning the richness of light, occurs a few times (RV I.174.7; V.59.8 ). The Maruts are called Jira-danu or plural Jira-danava or quick to give or perhaps fast Danus or fast Gods (RV V.54.9). This term Jiradanu occurs elsewhere as the gift of the Maruts in the last line of most of the hymns of Agastya (RV I.165-169, 171-178, 180-186, 189, 190). Mitra and Varuna are said to be Sripra-danu or easy to give and their many gifts, danuni, are praised (RV VIII.25.5-6). The Ashvins are called lords of Danuna, Danunaspati (RV VIII.8.16). Soma is also called Danuda and Danupinva, giving Danu or overflowing with Danu (RV IX.97.23), connecting Danu with water or with rivers.

The Maruts are typically called Sudanavas, good to give or good (Su) Danus (RV I.85.10; I.172.1-3; II.34.8; V.41.16; V.52.5; V.53.6; VI.66.5; VIII.20.18, 23). Similarly, the Vishvedevas or universal gods are called Sudanavas (RV VIII.83.6, 8, 9), as are the Adityas (RV VIII.67.16), the Ashvins (RV I.117.10, 24) and Vishnu (RV VIII.24.12). The term also occurs in a hymn to Sarasavati (RV VII.96.4), where Sarasvati is called the friend or companion of the Maruts (Marutsakha; RV 96.2). Most importantly, there is a Goddess called Sudanu Devi (RV V.41.18 ), which is probably another name for the mother of the Maruts. The Maruts in particular or the Gods in general would therefore be the sons of Sudanu or Sudanavas. This suggests that perhaps Danu, like Asura, was earlier a positive word and meant divine. There was not only a bad Danu but a good or Sudanu. In the Rig Veda the references to the Sudanavas are much more than those to Danava as an inimical term.

The Maruts are called Sumaya (RV I.88.1), having a good (Su) or divine power of Maya, which stands for magical power, or Mayina (RV V.58.2), possessed of Maya power. Danu is probably, in some respects, a synonym of Maya, a power of abundance but also of illusion. Like the root Ma, the root Da means "to divide" or "to measure". Maya is the power of the Danavas (RV II.11.10). The Danavas, particularly Ahi-Vritra, are portrayed as serpents (RV V.32.8 ), particularly the serpent who dwells at the foot of the mountain holding back the heavenly waters, whom Indra must slay in order to release the waters. Maya itself is the serpent power.

The Maruts as wind gods are powers of lightning, which in Vedic as in most ancient thought was considered to be a serpent or a dragon. The Maruts are the good serpents, shining bright like serpents (RV I.171.2). The Maruts help Indra in slaying Vritra and are his main friends and companions. Indra is called Marutvan, or possessed of the Maruts. Their leader is Vishnu (RV V.87), who is called Evaya-Marut. With Rudra (Shiva) as their father and Prishni (Shakti) as their mother, they reflect all the Gods of later Hinduism. As Shiva's sons they are connected with Skanda, Ganesha and Hanuman.

Perhaps these Sudanavas or good Danus are the Maruts, who in their travels guided and led many peoples including the Celts and other European followers of Danu. As the sons of Rudra, we note various Rudra like figures such as Cernunos among the Celts, who like Rudra is the lord of the animals and is portrayed in a yoga posture, as on the Gundestrop Cauldron. If the Maruts were responsible for spreading Vedic culture, as I have proposed, they could have called their children, the children of Danu, in a positive sense. We could also argue that the Sudanavas were the Maruts, Druids and other Rishi classes, while the peoples they ruled over, particularly the unruly Kshatriyas or warrior classes could become Danavas in the negative sense when they refused to accept spiritual guidance.

We know from both Celtic and Vedic texts that the early Aryans, like other ancient people, were always fighting with each other in various local conflicts, particularly for supremacy in their particular region. This led to various divisions and migrations through the centuries, which we cannot always take in a major way, just as the warring princes of India or Ireland remained part of the same culture and continued to intermarry with one another. Therefore, whatever early conflict might have existed between the Proto-European Aryans and those in the interior of India, was just part of various clashes between the different princely families that occurred within these same groups as well. It was forgotten over time.

The European Aryans had Gods like Zeus, Thor and Jupiter that serve as the counterparts of Indra as the God of heaven, the God of the rains, the thunderbolt and the lightning. Therefore, we cannot read the divide between the Rig Vedic Aryans and the Danavas as a rejection of the God Indra by the Proto-Europeans. In addition, the Proto-European Aryans continue to use the term Deva as divine as in Latin Deus and Greek Theos, unlike the Persians who make Asura mean divine and Deva mean demon. They also know Manu, which the Persians seem to have forgotten and only mention Yima (Yama). Unlike the Persians, who developed an aniconic (anti-image) and almost monotheistic tradition, the Proto-European Aryans maintained a pluralistic tradition, using images, and worshipping many Gods and Goddesses, like the Vedic. This suggests that their division from the Rig Vedic people occurred long before that of the Persians or Iranians, and that they took a larger and older form of the Vedic religion with them.

Migrations Out of India or Central Asia

We have noted Danu or Danava as a term for an inimical people or even an anti-god, like Deva and Asura, probably reflects some split in the Aryan peoples. This could be the conflict the Purus, the main Rig Vedic people located on the Sarasvati river near Delhi, and the Druhyus, who were located in the northwest by Afganistan, who fought quite early in the Rig Vedic period.

Certainly we can only equate the Proto-Europeans with the northwest of India or greater India that extends into Afghanistan and Central Asia. If they can be connected to any group among the five Vedic peoples it must be the Druhyus.

However, we do find Druhyu kingdoms continuing for some time in India and giving names to regions like Gandhara (Afghanistan) and Aratta (Panjab) connected more with Iranian or Scythian people. Yet, we do note a connection between the Scythians and the Celts, whose Druid priests connect themselves with the Scythians at an early period. The Scythians also maintained a trade from India to Europe that continued for many centuries. In this regard the Proto-Europeans could have been a derivation of Aryan India by migration, cultural diffusion, or what is more likely, a combination of both.

Though the Druhyus and Proto-Europeans may be connected, it is difficult to confirm, particularly as the Europeans were a very different ethnic type (Nordic and Alpine) than most of the Indians and Iranians, who were of the Mediterranean branch of the Caucasian race.

However, it is possible that European ethnic types were living in ancient Afghanistan or Central Asia, even Kashmir, where we do find some of these types even today. The evidence of the Tokharians suggests this. The Tokharians (Tusharas) were a people speaking an Indo-European language closer to the European (a kentum-based language), and also demonstrate Nordic or Alpine, blond and red-haired ethnic traits. They lived in the Tarim Basin of western China that dominated the region to the Muslim invasion up to the eighth century AD, by which time they had become Buddhists. They may be related to the European featured mummies found in that area dating back to 1500 BCE. They were also present in Western China around Langchou in the early centuries BCE. The Tokharian language is possibly related to the Celtic and Italic branches, just as their physical features resemble northern Europeans. The Tarim Basin region was later regarded as the land of the Uttara Kurus and as a land of the gods. So such groups were not always censured as barbarians at the borders but were sometimes honored as highly advanced and spiritual.

The evidence does not show an Aryan invasion/migration into India in ancient times, certainly not after the Harappan era (c. 3000 BCE) and probably not before. No genetic or skeletal or other hard evidence has been found to prove this. Similarly, we do not find evidence of migration of interior Indic peoples West, the dark-skinned people that were prominent on the subcontinent to the northwest. But if the same ethnic types as the Europeans were present in Western China, Afghanistan or in northwest Iran, like the Fergana Valley (Sogdia), such a migration west would be possible, particularly given their familiarity with horses. In this case the commonality of Indo-European languages would not rest upon a common ethnicity with the interior Indo-Aryans but on a common ethnicity with peripheral Aryans on the northwest of India.

It is also possible that the European people derived their Aryan culture from the influence of Vedic peoples, probably mainly Druhyus but also Scythians (who might themselves be Druhyus), who migrated to Central Asia and brought their culture to larger groups of Europeans already living in Europe and Central Asia. The Europeans could have picked up an Aryan influence indirectly from the contact with various rishis, princes or merchants, without any significant genetic or familial linkage with Indic peoples. Or some combination may have existed. Such peoples with more Vedic cultures like the Celts could derive mainly from migration, while those others like the Germans might derive mainly from cultural diffusion. In any case, various means of Aryanization existed that can explain the spread of Vedic culture from the Himalayas to Europe, of which actual migration of people from the interior of India need not be the only or even primary factor.

We do note the names of rivers like the Don, Dneiper, Dneister, Donets and Danube to the north of the Black are largely cognate with Danu. This could reflect such a movement of peoples from West or Central Asia, including migrants originally from regions of greater India and Iran. At the end of the Ice Age, as Europe became warmer, it became a suitable land for agriculture. This would have made it a desirable place of migration for people from the east and the south, which were flooded or became jungles.

European and Iranian Peoples of Central Asia and Europe: Sycthians and Turanians

The northern Iranian peoples, called Turanians or Scythians, dominated the steppes of Central Asia from Mongolia to Eastern Europe. By the early centuries BC they had set up kingdoms from the Danube in the West to the Altai Mountains in the East. They were the main enemies of the Persians. Unlike the Persians, their religions had more Devic elements and affinities to the Vedic with a greater emphasis on Devas, Sun worship, drinking of Soma and a greater variety of deities like the Vedic. We could call these Turanians or Scythians the main Proto-European Aryans. Some would identify them with the original Slavic peoples as well, who were likely always the largest and dominant Indo-European group in Europe.

Curiously in the early centuries AD we find the Scythians entering into north India and creating some kingdoms there, with both Hindu and Buddhist influence. It is possible that such contacts with India were transmitted to Central Asia and West, much as from previous Vedic eras.

It is probable that the Danavas, Scythians and Turanians were largely the same group of people with Vedic affinities and connections to Vedic culture through various kings, rishis, traders and movements of both people and cultures. Later the Turks came into Central Asia and displaced the Scythian peoples driving them south and west.

Western Indo-European scholarship is obsessed with these eastern Scythian and other possible European elements. Some like Parpola even see the Vedic peoples of the Rig Veda as a migration of the Scythians into India. However, these Central Asian Vedic people were just one branch of a greater Vedic people that included several branches within India itse.f

Much of the search for a Proto-Indo-European language or PIE could be more correctly regarded as a search for the proto-European people. What has been reconstructed through it is more the homeland of the Danava-Druhyu branch of the Vedic people after their dispersal from India rather than all the Indo-European speakers. It is at best only a recontruction of the western branch of the Vedic peoples and even that in a limited and distorted manner.

Therefore, we need not stop short with reconstructing Scythian and Central Asian Aryan culture, we must take it into India itself, where other Vedic branches existed using many of the same cultural forms like Fire worship, Sun worship, the sacred plant or Soma cult, the cult of the sacred cow and horse, symbols like the sacred tree and swastika, worship of rivers as Goddesses. The philosophical, medical and astronomical knowledge that we find in European peoples like the Celts and the Greeks also mirrors that of India such as we find in the Upanishads, Ayurvedic medicine and Vedic astrology.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 20 Jun 2012 18:43

Horse Riding: Maruts

The Maruts are mentioned in the Rig Veda and ManishH ji was kind enough to inform me that they are horse riders, so horse riding is not completely unknown in the Rig Veda. It was supposed to be an evidence in support of Rig Vedic memory of a place with horses.

The issue is:

Maruts are known to the Vedic Aryans, i.e. the PUrus, as Sudanavas, i.e. they were Danava, born of Danu. So even as the Vedic Aryans denigrated the Danavas (Druhyus), much like they did Asuras (Anus), they did give respect to those in the opposing camp, whom they considered as favorable towards them. Or maybe such references are from a time when the PUrus, Anus and Druhyus as well as Yadus and Turvashas, were one tribe - the Lunar Dynasty.

So when Vedic Aryans are making reference to Maruts, they are not speaking of themselves but of another tribe - the Druhyus/Danavas.

As we know after the Druhyus were pushed out of Sapta-Sindhu and Anus came to inhabit the land, the Druhyus/Danavas moved to Afghanistan and further into Central Asia. So much so that later on, one part of the Druhyus - the Sakas (Scythians) came to be the dominant power in Central Asia and they even moved back into India.

So the Druhyus/Danavas once in Afghanistan had access to Central Asia and the Steppes.

As such the only example we see of horse-riding in Rigveda is really by people belonging to the Danavas - the Maruts, which is not all too surprising.

So it can well be that the Sudanavas of Rigveda were the horse traders bringing in horses for the Vedic Aryans, the PUrus, and later on for others.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 20 Jun 2012 18:52

Sanku ji, Lalmohan ji,

thanks for your appreciation.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 18:56

RajeshA wrote:Sanku ji, Lalmohan ji,

thanks for your appreciation.


Add mine to that. I like the hypothesis.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 20 Jun 2012 19:29

shiv saar,

thanks.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 20 Jun 2012 19:30

The Chronology of the Mandalas of Rig Veda

Image

Image
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 20 Jun 2012 19:36

Rajesh garu nice hypothesis. It would be good if we can develop it, we need to have our own version which seems more promising than AIT. And also chronology of madalas is very disputed, we also need to say why the above is true chronology of mandalas (or just stick with Talageri's proposal anyway your hypothesis is based on his chronology I guess.). Nice flow chart very clear.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Jun 2012 19:43

If Book VI is the oldest, please note (Griffith translation, VI.3)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv06003.htm

4 Fierce is his gait and vast his wondrous body: he champeth like a horse with bit and bridle,
And, darting forth his tongue, as ’twere a hatchet, burning the woods, smelteth them like a smelter.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 19:44

Here is an interesting pdf about onagers and horse domestication - from some Central Asian/Russian territory/Georgia maybe
http://www.agt.si.edu/_images/uncover_m ... ge_ENG.pdf
The Jinisi horse: and some thoughts on the role of the
onager in the Bronze Age - Oleg Bendukidze


Quotes of parts that I found interesting

Onager domestication
While asses and horses remain domestic animals today, onagers were domesticated only from the end
of the Eneolithic to the end of the Early Bronze Age. By the beginning of the historical epoch only wild ona-
gers remained; although they had been a domestic animal in vast areas of Europe and the Middle East, these
animals were now wild. One kind of domestic onager (Equus hemionus pumpellii Duerst) was widespread
in many regions of Near East in the 4th-2nd millennia BC: in Mesopotamia (Uruk, Ur), Iran (Shakhre-Sukhte),
Caucasus and also, presumably, in Turkmenistan (Anau). The domestic onager is likely to have been wide-
spread in Georgia as well. The study of osteological material of onagers excavated from Early Bronze Age
settlements, Orchosani (Samtskhe), Kvatskhelebi (Shida Katli), Damtsvari Gora (Kakheti), showed that they
belonged to a domesticated form.
Furthermore, archaeological sites studied in the Caucasus (Azerbaijan,
Daghestan and Chechenya), where the Uruk cultural strata are also attested (or, at least, strata of a culture
close to the Uruk) allow us to assume onager bones, which occur throughout Caucasia at Early Bronze age
sites, belong to domesticated onagers. We can thus estimate the period in which the domesticated onager
was present in Caucasia and Georgia. But because domesticated onagers and domesticated horses have
not yet been found together, it would be logical to assume that domesticated horses emerged in Georgia
and neighbouring regions later than domesticated onagers, approximately at the beginning of the 2nd
millennium BC. It is quite possible that horses replaced onagers as the stronger animal (for example, four
onagers were harnessed to a chariot, while two horses were sufficient
).


About Chariots
In antiquity, fast animals were harnessed to military chariots, which were mainly used to break through
an enemy’s line. The ancient Sumerian (Ur) military chariot was extremely primitive, rough and inconve-
nient. It had four heavy wheels and four onagers were harnessed to it. All this is perfectly illustrated on the
so-called “standard from Ur” and on a lid of a box also discovered in Ur (Woolley 1961). In my opinion, the
later Assyrian-Babylonian military two-wheeled chariots were more advanced than the Sumerian ones.
Although these chariots also had very rough and massive wheels, can be seen in images, they were pulled
by two horses. The same type of chariot, with huge wheels, was used in Urartu as well, as shown on the
representations on King Argishti’s armour.

Another type of chariot was used by the Greeks, the Etruscans, the Romans and, probably, the Achae-
menids, who had nearly the same type of military chariots. Such chariots were usually decorated with rep-
resentations in relief. Furthermore, the ends of the axle between the wheels of Greek and Persian chariots
were pointed and served a useful belligerent purpose in themselves.

Major changes in chariot manufacture were initiated by the ancient Aryans of India and Afghanistan.
They made chariots from a particularly strong wood, which meant that the chariot was light and a man
could lift it with one hand.
This type of a chariot first emerged in Asia. Then the Egyptians adopted it from
the Hyksos having appreciated its military qualities. The Hittites also had such chariots.


More on chariots
In conclusion, we can trace the evolution of the chariot as follows: from the military four-wheeled
chariot of Sumerians and Assyrian-Babylonians, and then to the chariot of the Aryans, which was more
advanced and much lighter.

I believe that it would be useful in this context to analyze different types of chariots of Europe and Asia.
It is likely that systematization of these data may enable us to define several main horse-breeding centres
existing at the prehistoric stage of development.

In my opinion, the diffusion of two different types of chariots indicates the existence of two main cen-
tres of horse-breeding. One of them was probably in the Near East; this is where the domesticated horse
emerged, from Babylon, Assyria and Urartu. The second was probably in Central Asia, in the area of distribu-
tion of Aryan peoples.

As we know from ancient sources, in ancient times Hurrians, particularly Mitannians, were the most
skilled at horse breeding; it was Mitannians who taught the Hittites this art. In a treatise by Kikuli, a Mitan-
nian, recovered in the Boghazkoi cuneiform archives, we find methods of horse training which hardly differ
from modern ones.



The onager is a very fast animal. An adult male can run at 60-70 km/h over a distance of 10 km, while at
a lower speed it can run 20-25 km without rest. This animal is also rather big: about 200-260 cm in length,
height at the base of neck 1.5 m, and weight up to 350 kilos. Onager meat had a high price in olden times,
while its skin was used for producing shagreen leather.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 20:10

http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifa ... horse.html
Sir John Marshall, Director General of the Archaeological Survey when Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro were being excavated, recorded the presence of what he called the 'Mohenjo-daro horse'. Giving salient measurements, comparing it to other known specimens, he wrote: "It will be seen that there is a considerable degree of similarity between these various examples, and it is probable the Anau horse, the Mohenjo-daro horse, and the example of Equus caballus of the Zoological Survey of India, are all of the type of the 'Indian country bred', a small breed of horse, the Anau horse being slightly smaller than the others." ( Mohenjo-Daro and the Indus Civilization, volume II, page 654.) It is important to recognize that this is much stronger evidence than mere artifacts, which are artists' reproductions and not anatomical specimens that can be subjected to scientific examination.

Actually, the Harappans not only knew the horse, the whole issue of the 'Harappan horse' is irrelevant. In order to prove that the Vedas are of foreign origin, (and the horse came from Central Asia) one must produce positive evidence: it should be possible to show that the horse described in the Rigveda was brought from Central Asia. This is contradicted by the Rigveda itself. In verse I.162.18, the Rigveda describes the horse as having 34 ribs (17 pairs), while the Central Asian horse has 18 pairs (36) of ribs. We find a similar description in the Yajurveda also.

This means that the horse described in the Vedas is the native Indian breed (with 34 ribs) and not the Central Asian variety. Fossil remains of Equus Sivalensis (the 'Siwalik horse') show that the 34-ribbed horse has been known in India going back tens of thousands of years. This makes the whole argument based on "No horse at Harappa" irrelevant. The Vedic horse is a native Indian breed and not the Central Asian horse. As a result, far from supporting any Aryan invasion, the horse evidence furnishes one of its strongest refutations.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2012 20:11

rajesha, for your research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhimbetka_rock_shelters


Image Some of the Stone Age rock paintings found among the Bhimbetka rock shelters are approximately 30,000 years old (Paleolithic Age).[3]
Image Bhimbetka rock painting showing man riding on horse.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 20:16

In the same paper mentioned above, Witzel declares the Onager "untamable".
Even more importantly, the only true native equid of South Asia is the untamable khur (Equus hemionus, onager/half-ass) that still tenuously survives in the Rann of Kutch. Both share a common ancestor which is now put at ca. 1.72 million years ago (while the first Equus specimen is attested already 3.7 mya.). The differences between a half-ass skeleton and that of a horse are so small that one needs a trained specialist plus the lucky find of the lower forelegs of a horse/onager to determine which is which, for "bones of a larger khur will overlap in size with those of a small horse, and bones of a small khur will overlap in size with those of a donkey." (Meadow 1996: 406).


This contradicts the earlier pdf I have posted which speaks of domesticated onagers.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ShauryaT » 20 Jun 2012 20:24

shiv wrote:Controversies in dating the Rig Veda
http://controversialhistory.blogspot.in ... -G7JOoexB0
Astronomy
Rigveda and all other ancient books contain several statements of astronomical significance like the position of Sun in the Zodiac on the two equinoxes, vernal or spring equinox and autumn equinox. Indian Astronomy is based on sidereal Zodiac. The Zodiac is divided into 27 roughly equal segments, all are measuring 130 20' of arc. The seventh mandala of the Rigveda records the vernal equinox in Mrigashira Constellation pointing to a date around 4000 BCE - a fact noted by Jacobi and Tilak. Again several Shulba Sūtrās declare that a pole star is visible. Since a visible pole star occurs only at certain epochs, such a citation gives a normal range of dates for that event. The astronomical dates put the dates before 4000BC.

Silver & Cotton
Again Rigveda does not mention either silver or cotton. Since the date of cotton is well established, again we get a lower bound on the Rig Vedic date.
There are some, who quote a date of 8000 BC, based on astronomical evidences, IIRC. I can look it up, if there is interest.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 20:29

ShauryaT wrote:There are some, who quote a date of 8000 BC, based on astronomical evidences, IIRC. I can look it up, if there is interest.


Please do. I would be grateful to see what there is. To me it appears that the dating of the Rig Veda has been carefully adjusted to suit other theories and I am beginning to feel that the recognized dates are wrong.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 20:33

SaiK wrote:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... mbetka.JPG
Bhimbetka rock painting showing man riding on horse.


1. Dating is wrong
2. Drawn from memory of events that took place centuries ago in some other place
3. Where is the archaeological evidence for bows?
4. That is not a horse. It is a Centaur
(edited to add smiley indicating sarcasm)
:)
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby brihaspati » 20 Jun 2012 20:36

ManishH wrote:
brihaspati wrote:I think when people talk of migration, they do not understand how migration in the absence of passport control worked in historical reality. There as not been substantial research to understand possible/claimed/documented/narrative records of migration. It was not even diffusion - most likely. It was like extension of communities over space and time. Each generation perhaps not moving that far away, and not all of them either, from the parental population. People are simply exploring resources of fresh areas without necessarily having planned and conscious migration programmes. In the short time window, there will always be genetic flow in both spatial and time directions. Its the gradual long term trend that needs to be studied.


The effect of climate and quest for resources is quite well known. But add to these, the crucial technological edge that horse domestication gives. That makes all the difference.

Not very different from how Chola naval technology resulted in the outreach of hinduism to SE Asia.



Bringing in the Chola's only further complicates things - more so - in the domain of naval technology and its supposed superiority. On a very first count - this naval technology seems to be oh-so-poor then in the western IOR domain and oh-so-strong in the eastern sector, through which though the "strong" western component flows through too [Simhala, Chinese and Arab]. OT.

However, the original issue was about "steppe" horsites drifting through and filling up "ruins" of abandoned "urban centres". Linguists have a tendency of sidestepping this problem by sort of muttering under the breath about "climate" change. They don't spell out that it is not just any climate change - but dehydration, and aridification. For xxx's sake, it is about less and less water. Herds need water, horses need water. Anyone riding or keeping horses knows - that even more than food, they need water on continuous use. They also need not just any grass but grasses or fodder rich in protein. This is why, you will find horses rarely on their own out in the deserts. In CAR, the traditional hotspots where horses could be maintained were along the river valleys. This is the route through which so-called horde-armies moved.

When the CAR urban centres went dry - it is unlikely to have been found as an attractive grazing spot for horsites.

In fact, if the few remains of object YYYY in Saraswati basin denotes attribute XXXX declared to be connected to YYYY to have been absent, then the same argument holds for the romantic drifting notion of steppe horsites colonizing and filling up ruins. There simply isn't any sufficient archeological evidence if we go by the negating argument class applied to Saraswati basin.

Most of it is speculation, proposed hypothesis - put in a way that makes it part of a conclusion.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2012 20:38

shiv, then someone knowledgeable please correct the wiki.

btw, the second pic resembles horse - I edited - my bad.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jun 2012 20:44

SaiK wrote:shiv, then someone knowledgeable please correct the wiki.

btw, the second pic resembles horse - I edited - my bad.


Gosh saik - I was making a sarcastic joke about what will be said. Sorry I did not put a smiley. That is surely a horse and it looks like a rider. I think the image wa posted earlier in this thread and the first doubt raised was "How was it dated?" Valid doubt maybe but that is the same doubt I have about Rig Veda dating.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Atri » 20 Jun 2012 20:47

the earliest rigvedic date I have read is 21000 BC.. it is based on beginning of monsoon in jyeshtha nakshatra.. it begins in jyeshtha in modern times. In kalidasa's time, monsoon began in ashadh nakshatra (meghdootam first verse is one of the indicators). there are some verses in RV which say that varshaa rutu (again a hallmark of Indian subcontinent, there is no particular monsoon period elsewhere) begins in jyeshtha.. that one entire cycle behind.. approximately 23000 years ago. Will try to locate if this is available online.

Even tilak showed that some verses were written when monsoon began in mriga nakshatra (today's december-january).. There are other indicators apart from vedas.. birth of krishna happened in Shravana month. In modern times, it is in monsoon. But Harivansa does not describe monsoon. Instead, it talks about dried cow dung everywhere. Bhishma died when uttarayan began on Bhishma-ashtami. according to english solar calender, date of this is fixed (22 dcember). But according to indian lunisolar calender, the bhishma ashtami has now moved in february. Just like Makar sankranti has been moving ahead. (third battle of panipat happened on 10th january, vivekananda was born on 12th january, today makar sankranti is on 14th january)..

then there is famous MBH verse about fall of "Vega" star. Its called abhijit nakshatra in sanskrit. it was a nakshatra (one which does not fall), yet it is described how vega ceased to be a nakshatra and became pole-star instead. this is roughly 12000 years ago. THis is when krittika ascended into nakshatriya belt (akash ganga OR the milky way). This appears so due to precession of earth's axis. many such pointers.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2012 20:48

--
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/925

The site complex was discovered by V. S. Wakankar in 1957. Almost 100 years earlier, in 1867, rock paintings had been discovered in Uttar Pradesh and the first scientific article on Indian rock paintings was published by J. Cockburn in 1883. Bhimbetka was first mentioned in 1888 as a Buddhist site, from information obtained from local adivasis. Two shelters were excavated in 1971 by Bajpai, Pandey and Gour.


So far excavations have been limited to Bhimbetka. Between 1972 and 1977 excavation undertaken by Wakanakar, Misra and Hass revealed a continuous sequence of Stone Age cultures from the late Acheulian to the late Mesolithic and also some of the world's oldest stone walls and floors. Wakanakar revealed stratified deposits including Chalcolithic pottery, which indicated contact with Chalcolithic man on the neighbouring plains




and downloading...

whc.unesco.org/uploads/nominations/925.pdf

dunno, what this doc has.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2012 20:50

that doc is 233 pages.. ton of good info and pics.

Primary sites
are rare, and of the Old World those of the Pleistocene Age (28,00,000 BP to 10,000 BP)
constitute less than 1 per cent of all discovered sites.
Bhimbetka is one such rare primary site.


The site complex is a magnificent repository of rock paintings within natural rock shelters
with archaeological evidences of habitation and lithic industry, from the Palaeolithic
and Mesolithic periods through the Chalcolithic to the Mediaeval period.

The paintings, largely in white and red, are essentially a record of the varied animal life
which shared the forest environment with the prehistoric people, and of the various facets -
economic and social - of the peoples’ lives. Representations of flora are few. Sizes range from
five centimetres to a faded impression of an animal on the ceiling of shelter III C-6 nearly
five metres in length and two metres in breadth. Pictorial narratives of events such as large
processions of men on caparisoned horses and elephants, battle scenes depicting spears,
bows, arrows, shields and swords highlight the Historical period. Inscriptions painted in
white and red, and engraved on the rock surface in Sunga Brahmi (second century BC),
post-Gupta Brahmi and Sankha Lipi (first century BC - seventh century AD) and later paintings,
also bear testimony to the use of the shelters in the Historical and Mediaeval periods.




Evidence of a very long cultural continuity: In at least
one of the excavated shelters, it is said in the nomination
that continued occupation is demonstrable from
100,000 BCE (Late Acheulian) to 1000 AD


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 20 Jun 2012 20:55

By inciting and inviting others in bakwasi arguments the PIE walas and their ilk knowingly or unknowingly dont allow the others to pursue anything more fruitful. though the arguments give stimulus to brain and help understanding other useful things, ghoda gadha arguments will keep many other important issues in back burner.

We also have to reclaim our position on numbers, mathematics including sulvasutras, calculus (according gaverhese joseph it is gift of kerala mathematicians to the world), geometry, astronomy, medical systems, vis a vis oit. Our work, our seers, scientists and astronomers have been insulted many times.

The gadha ghoda chariot wood coffin cremation arguments have eaten up many pages. there will be no significant change in the behaviour even if their arguments sound absurd to a third grader. a significant change will come only when these guys will have to remain dependent on aid from third world BRIC, sa, nz and other insignificant donors. but this will take time. the arrogance is because of misplaced white superiority over sons of ham

By the time the day will come, accordimg to my european friends, there will be very few
PIE wala left. all the research done on PIE will be useful only to Indos and no europeans because of increasingly dwindling population of europeans. according to wiki by 2050 the european population will be only 7% of world population. we need to find out whether it is ait amt or oit for our knowledge. E in PIE is insignificant anyways

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 20 Jun 2012 21:00

Shiv, I think you theory that the Rig Veda is prior to Harappa is most likely. However Harappa does have deities mentioned in Rig Veda: pasupati or mulabandana asana figureine with forest animals. Could be a yogi in the forest the begining of the sanyasi/aghori orders of latter day Hinduism.

RajeshA, Very good hypothesis to fit the out of India expulsions mentioned in ancient works.
Funeral customs are invariant over time and record beliefs even for secualrs. JLN decreed he was to be cremated!

Murugan, If the OI/PIE debate didn't come up would we all have been as aware as we are now?

Atriji, RamaY was telling me about a former director of NPL, India who worte a book in Telugu about astronomical dating of the Vedas. He makes a case for very ancient date of 31000BC for the War.

Will let RamaY fill in the details.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 20 Jun 2012 21:13

Since we are discussing the references of horse in Rig veda, let's see how many of those references are in connection with Maruts and how many connections are with Indra.

So Maruts seem to be central to understanding the requirements of horse evidence.

My understanding is that Maruts were Danavas/Druhyus who had established themselves in Afghanistan and Central Asia after being driven out of Sapta-Sindhu by the Anus. They were allies of Indra, whom I consider in some contexts as the symbol for PUru regal power.

So the hypothesis is that Maruts, who were allied with the Bharatas (PUrus) used to deliver horses to them at regular intervals. They used to come from the North, possibly through Afghanistan when the PUrus shifted to Sapta-Sindhu displacing the Anu Confederacy after the Battle of the Ten Kings and trade with with Maruts became possible, however trade may have started in advance of this event.

The Maruts used to bring herds of horses, they themselves either riding them or riding chariots. As mentioned they used to come from the North over the Himalaya passes, and as such are referred to as children of Rudra. When they used to bring their horses to the PUrus, the herd of horses used to make the earth tremble and their hoofs used to make a lot of noise, blowing up the soil, and from afar it used to appear as if they are the harbingers of clouds.

There is a lot of talk of treasure, etc., so one could think of them being traders, who used to bring herds of horses and used to receive gratitude, much praise, and goods in return as could be expected from a fertile region of the PUrus.

Basically I think that the Danavas or Sudanavas like Maruts started doing this when they shifted their base from Sapta-Sindhu (Punjab) into Afghanistan. It could also be that this alliance came about after the Druhyus were pissed off with Anus (Iranians), and so the Druhyus/Danavas started helping PUrus in their conflict with Anus, even though earlier Danavas and PUrus didn't used to see eye to eye.

We see that the only hymn that chronologically stands out is in Mandala VI, one of the earliest Mandalas, according to Talageri. In Mandala III there are no references to Maruts. In Mandala VII, they are introduced, and the priests of the PUrus, the Vashishtas now, speak of them as if they are not very familiar with the antecedents or even intentions of the Maruts.

BTW, Vashishtas become the priests of PUrus, when SudAs is the king and he starts his drive against the Anus in the Battle of the Ten Kings. It seems it is then that the Maruts really ally with SudAs. That is the time depicted in Mandala VII, not just the Battle of the 10 Kings but also a proper introduction of the Maruts.

This is just my preliminary reading of it all.
Just speculating.

From Wikipedia
In Hinduism the Marutas (Sanskrit: मरुत), also known as the Marutagana and sometimes identified with Rudras, are storm deities and sons of Rudra and Prisni and attendants of Indra, an ancient Vedic deity who later came to be identified withe Shiva. The number of Maruts varies from 27 to sixty (three times sixty in RV 8.96.8). They are very violent and aggressive, described as armed with golden weapons i.e. lightning and thunderbolts, as having iron teeth and roaring like lions, as residing in the north, as riding in golden chariots drawn by ruddy horses.

Hymn 66 of Mandala VI of the Rig Veda is an eloquent account of how a natural phenomenon of a rain-storm metamorphose into storm deities.

In the Vedic mythology, the Marutas, a troop of young warriors, are Indra's companions. According to French comparative mythologist Georges Dumézil, they are cognate to the Einherjar and the Wild hunt.

To the Rig Veda, the ancient collection of sacred hymns, the wore golden helmets and breastplates, and used their axes to split the clouds so that rain could fall. They were widely regarded as clouds, capable to shaking mountains and destroying forests.

According to later tradition, the Maruts were born from the broken womb of the goddess Diti, after Indra hurled a thunderbolt at her to prevent her from giving birth to too powerful a son. The goddess had intended to remain pregnant for a century before giving birth to a son who would threaten Indra.



Hymns to the Maruts in the Rig Veda (Translation by Ralph T.H. Griffith)


Mandala VI

HYMN LXVI. Maruts.

  1. E'EN to the wise let that be still a wonder to which the general name of Cow is given.
    The one hath swelled among mankind for milking: Pṛśni hath drained but once her fair bright udder.
  2. They who like kindled flames of fire are glowing,. the Maruts, twice and thrice have waxen mighty.
    Golden and dustless were their cars, invested with their great strength and their heroic vigour.
  3. They who are Sons of the rain-pouring Rudra, whom the long-lasting One had power to foster:
    The Mighty Ones whose germ great Mother Pṛśni is known to have received for man's advantage.
  4. They shrink not from the birth; in this same manner still resting there they purge away reproaches.
    When they have streamed forth, brilliant, at their pleasure, with their own splendour they bedew their bodies.
  5. Even those who bear the brave bold name of Maruts, whom not the active quickly wins for milking.
    Even the liberal wards not off those fierce ones, those who are light and agile in their greatness.
  6. When, strong in strength and armed with potent weapons, they had united wellformed earth and heaven,
    Rodasl stood among these furious Heroes like splendour shining with her native brightness.
  7. No team of goats shall draw your car, O Maruts, no horse no charioteer be he who drives it.
    Halting not, reinless, through the air it travels, speeding alone its paths through earth and heaven.
  8. None may obstruct, none overtake, O Maruts, him whom ye succour in the strife of battle
    For sons and progeny, for kine and waters: he bursts the cow-stall on the day of trial.
  9. Bring a bright hymn to praise the band of Maruts, the Singers, rapid, strong in native vigour,
    Who conquer mighty strength with strength more mighty: earth shakes in terror at their wars, O Agni.
  10. Bright like the flashing flames of sacrifices, like tongues of fire impetuous in their onset,
    Chanting their psalm, singing aloud, like heroes, splendid from birth, invincible, the Maruts.
  11. That swelling band I call with invocation, the brood of Rudra, armed with glittering lances.
    Pure hymns are meet for that celestial army: like floods and mountains have the Strong Ones battled.


Mandala III

No Hymn on Maruts


Mandala VII

HYMN LVI. Maruts.

  1. Wno are these radiant men in serried rank, Rudra's young heroes borne by noble steeds?
  2. Verily no one knoweth whence they sprang: they, and they only, know each other's birth.
  3. They strew each other with their blasts, these Hawks: they strove together, roaring like the wind.
  4. A sage was he who knew these mysteries, what in her udder mighty Pṛśni bore.
  5. Ever victorious, through the Maruts, be this band of Heroes, nursing manly strength,
  6. Most bright in splendour, flectest on their way, close-knit to glory, strong with varied power.
  7. Yea, mighty is your power and firm your strength: so, potent, with the Maruts, be the band.
  8. Bright is your spirit, wrathful are your minds: your bold troop's minstrel is like one inspired.
  9. Ever avert your blazing shaft from us, and let not your displeasure reach us here
  10. Your dear names, conquering Maruts, we invoke, calling aloud till we are satisfied.
  11. Well-armed, impetuous in their haste, they deck themselves, their forms, with oblations: to you, the pure, ornaments made of gold.
  12. Pure, Maruts, pure yourselves, are your oblations: to you, the pure, pure sacrifice I offer.
    By Law they came to truth, the Law's observers, bright by their birth, and pure, and sanctifying.
  13. Your rings, O Maruts, rest upon your shoulders, and chains of gold are twined upon your bosoms.
    Gleaming with drops of rain, like lightning-flashes, after your wont ye whirl about your weapons.
  14. Wide in the depth of air spread forth your glories, far, most adorable, ye bear your titles.
    Maruts, accept this thousandfold allotment of household sacrifice and household treasure.
  15. If, Maruts, ye regard the praise recited here at this mighty singer invocation,
    Vouchsafe us quickly wealth with noble heroes, wealth which no man uho hateth us may injure.
  16. The Maruts, fleet as coursers, while they deck them like youths spectators of a festal meeting,
    Linger, like beauteous colts, about the dwelling, like frisking calves, these who pour down the water.
  17. So may the Maruts help us and be gracious, bringing free room to lovely Earth and Heaven.
    Far be your bolt that slayeth men and cattle. Ye Vasus, turn yourselves to us with blessings.
  18. The priest, when seated, loudly calls you, Maruts, praising in song your universal bounty.
    He, Bulls! who hath so much in his possession, free from duplicity, with hymns invokes you.
  19. These Maruts bring the swift man to a stand-still, and strength with mightier strength they break and humble
    These guard the singer from the man who hates him and lay their sore displeasure on the wicked.
  20. These Maruts rouse even the poor and needy: the Vasus love him as an active champion.
    Drive to a distance, O ye Bulls, the darkness: give us full store of children and descendants.
  21. Never, O Maruts, may we lose your bounty, nor, car-borne Lords! be hitidmost when ye deal it.
    Give us a share in that delightful treasure, the genuine wealth that, Bulls! is your possession.
  22. What time the men in fury rush together for running streams, for pastures, and for houses.
    Then, O ye Maruts, ye who spring from Rudra, be our protectors in the strife with foemen.
  23. Full many a deed ye did for our forefathers worthy of lauds which, even of old, they sang you.
    lle strong man, with the Maruts, wins in battle, the charger, with the Maruts, gains the booty.
  24. Ours, O ye Maruts, be the vigorous Hero, the Lord Divine of men, the strong Sustainer,
    With whom to fair lands we may cross the waters, and dwell in our own home with you beside us.
  25. May Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa and Agni, Waters, and Plants, and Trees accept our praises.
    May we find shelter in the Marut's bosom. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.

HYMN LVII. Maruts.

  1. YEA, through the power of your sweet juice, ye Holy! the Marut host is glad at sacrifices.
    They cause even spacious heaven and earth to tremble, they make the spring flow when they come, the Mighty.
  2. The Maruts watch the man who sings their praises, promoters of the thought of him who worships.
    Seat you on sacred grass in our assembly, this day, with friendly minds, to share the banquet.
  3. No others gleam so brightly as these Maruts with their own forms, their golden gauds, their weapons.
    With all adornments, decking earth and heaven, they heighten, for bright show, their common splendour.
  4. Far from us be your blazing dart, O Maruts, when we, through human frailty, sin against you.
    Let us not he exposed to that, ye Holy! May your most loving favour still attend us.
  5. May even what we have done delight the Maruts, the blameless Ones, the bright, the purifying.
    Further us, O ye Holy, with your kindness: advance us mightily that we may prosper.
  6. And may the Maruts, praised by all their titles, Heroes, enjoy the taste of our oblations.
    Give us of Amṛta for the sake of offspring: awake the excellent fair stores of riches.
  7. Hither, ye Maruts, praised, with all your succours, with all felicity come to our princes,
    Who, of themselves, a hundredfold increase us. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.

HYMN LVIII. Maruts.

  1. SING to the troop that pours down rain in common, the Mighty Company of celestial nature.
    They make the world-halves tremble with their greatness: from depths of earth and sky they reach to heaven.
  2. Yea, your birth, Maruts, was with wild commotion, ye who move swiftly, fierce in wrath, terrific.
    Ye all-surpassing in your might and vigour, each looker on the light fears at your coming.
  3. Give ample vital power unto our princes let our fair praises gratify the Maruts.
    As the way travelled helpeth people onward, so further us with your delightful succours.
  4. Your favoured singer counts his wealth by hundreds: the strong steed whom ye favour wins a thousand.
    The Sovran whom ye aid destroys the foeman. May this your gift, ye Shakers, be distinguished.
  5. I call, as such, the Sons of bounteous Rudra: will not the Maruts turn again to us-ward?
    What secret sin or open stirs their anger, that we implore the Swift Ones to forgive us.
  6. This eulogy of the Bounteous hath been spoken: accept, ye Maruts, this our hymn of praises.
    Ye Bulls, keep those who hate us at a distance. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.


HYMN LIX. Maruts.

  1. WHOMSO ye rescue here and there, whomso ye guide, O Deities,
    To him give shelter, Agni, Mitra, Varuṇa, ye Maruts, and thou Aryaman.
  2. Through your kind favour, Gods, on some auspicious day, the worshipper subdues his foes.
    That man increases home and strengthening ample food who brings you offerings as ye list.
  3. Vasiṣṭha will not overlook the lowliest one among you all.
    O Maruts, of our Soma juice effused to-day drink all of you with eager haste.
  4. Your succour in the battle injures not the man to whom ye, Heroes, grant your gifts.
    May your most recent favour turn to us again. Come quickly, ye who fain would drink.
  5. Come hitherward to drink the juice, O ye whose bounties give you joy.
    These offerings are for you, these, Maruts, I present. Go not to any place but this.
  6. Sit on our sacred grass, be graciously inclined to give the wealth for which we long,
    To take delight, ye Maruts, Friends of all, with Svāhā, in sweet Soma juice.
  7. Decking the beauty of their forms in secret the Swans with purple backs have flown down hither.
    Around me all the Company hath settled, like joyous Heroes glad in our libation.
  8. Maruts, the man whose wrath is hard to master, he who would slay us ere we think, O Vasus,
    May he be tangled in the toils of mischief; smite ye him down with your most flaming weapon.
  9. O Maruts, ye consuming Gods, enjoy this offering brought for you,
    To help us, ye who slay the foe.
  10. Sharers of household sacrifice, come, Maruts, stay not far away,
    That ye may help us, Bounteous Ones.
  11. Here, Self-strong Maruts, yea, even here. ye Sages with your sunbright skins
    I dedicate your sacrifice.
  12. Tryambaka we worship, sweet augmenter of prosperity.
    As from its stem the cucumber, so may I be released from death, not reft of immortality.


Mandala IV

No Hymn On Maruts


Mandala II

HYMN XXXIV. Maruts

  1. THE Maruts of resistless might who love the rain, resplendent, terrible like wild beasts in their strength,
    Glowing like flames of fire, impetuous in career, blowing the wandering rain-cloud, have disclosed the kine.
  2. They gleam with armlets as the heavens are decked with stars, like cloud-born lightnings shine the torrents of their rain.
    Since the strong Rudra, O Maruts with brilliant chests, sprang into life for you in Pṛśni's radiant lap.
  3. They drip like horses in the racings of swift steeds; with the stream's rapid cars they hasten on their way.
    Maruts with helms of gold, ye who make all things shake, come with your spotted deer, one-minded, to our food.
  4. They have bestowed of Mitra all that live, to feed, they who for evermore cause their swift drops to flow;
    Whose steeds are spotted deer, whose riches never fail, like horses in full speed, bound to the pole in work.
  5. With brightly-flaming kine whose udders swell with milk, with glittering lances on your unobstructed paths,
    O Maruts, of one mind, like swans who seek their nests, come to the rapturous enjoyment of the meath.
  6. To these our prayers, O Maruts, come unanimous, come ye to our libations like the praise of men.
    Make it swell like a mare, in udder like a cow, and for the singer grace the song with plenteous strength.
  7. Give us a steed, O Maruts mighty in the car; prevailing prayer that brings remembrance day by day;
    Food to your praisers, to your bard in deeds of might give winning wisdom, power uninjured, unsurpassed.
  8. When the bright-chested Maruts, lavish of their gifts, bind at the time bliss their horses to the cars,
    Then, as the milch-cow feeds her calf within the stalls, they pour forth food for all oblation-bringing men.
  9. Save us, O Maruts, Vasus, from the injurer, the mortal foe who makes us looked upon as wolves.
    With chariot all aflame compass him round about: O Rudras, cast away the foeman's deadly bolt.
  10. Well-known, ye Maruts, is that wondrous course of yours, when they milked Pṛśni's udder, close akin to her.
    Or when to shame the bard who lauded, Rudra's Sons, ye O infallible brought Trita to decay.
  11. We call you such, great Maruts, following wonted ways, to the oblation paid to Viṣṇu Speeder-on.
    With ladles lifted up, with prayer, we seek of them preeminent, golden-hued, the wealth which all extol.
  12. They, the Daśagvas, first of all brought sacrifice: they at the break of mornings shall inspirit us.
    Dawn with her purple beams uncovereth the nights, with great light glowing like a billowy sea of milk.
  13. The Rudras have rejoiced them in the gathered bands at seats of worship as in purple ornaments.
    They with impetuous vigour sending down the rain have taken to themselves a bright and lovely hue.
  14. Soliciting their high protection for our help, with this our adoration we sing praise to them,
    Whom, for assistance, like the five terrestrial priests. Trita hath brought to aid us hither on his car.
  15. So may your favouring help be turned to us-ward, your kindness like a lowing cow approach us,
    Wherewith ye bear your servant over trouble, and free your worshipper from scoff and scorning.


Mandala V

HYMN LII Maruts.

  1. SING boldly forth, Śyāvāśva, with the Maruts who are loud in song,
    Who, holy, as their wont is, joy in glory that is free from guile.
  2. For in their boldness they are friends of firm and sure heroic strength.
    They in their course, bold-spirited, guard all men of their own accord.
  3. Like steers in rapid motion they advance and overtake the nights;
    And thus the Maruts’ power in heaven and on the earth we celebrate.
  4. With boldness to your Maruts let us offer laud and sacrifice:
    Who all, through ages of mankind, guard mortal man from injury.
  5. Praiseworthy, givers of good gifts, Heroes with full and perfect strength -
    To Maruts, Holy Ones of heaven, will I extol the sacrifice.
  6. The lofty Heroes cast their spears and weapons bright with gleaming gold.
    After these Maruts followed close, like laughing lightning from the sky, a splendour of its own accord.
  7. They who waxed mighty, of the earth, they who are in the wide mid-air,
    Or in the rivers’ compass, or in the abode of ample heaven.
  8. Praise thou the Maruts’ company, the valorous and truly strong,
    The Heroes, hasting, by themselves have yoked their deer for victory.
  9. Fair-gleaming, on Paruṣṇī they have clothed themselves in robes of wool,
    And with their chariot tires they cleave the rock asunder in their might.
  10. Whether as wanderers from the way or speeders on or to the path,
    Under these names the spreading band tend well the sacrifice for me.
  11. To this the Heroes well attend, well do their teams attend to this.
    Visible are their varied forms. Behold, they are Paravatas.
  12. Hymn-singing, seeking water, they, praising, have danced about the spring.
    What are they unto me? No thieves, but helpers, splendid to behold.
  13. Sublime, with lightnings for their spears, Sages and Orderers are they.
    Ṛṣi, adore that Marut host, and make them happy with thy song.
  14. Ṛṣi, invite the Marut band with offerings, as a maid her friend.
    From heaven, too, Bold Ones, in your might haste hither glorified with songs.
  15. Thinking of these now let him come, as with the escort of the Gods,
    And with the splendid Princes, famed for rapid courses, to the gifts.
  16. Princes, who, when I asked their kin, named Pṛśni as their Mother-cow,
    And the impetuous Rudra they, the Mighty Ones, declared their Sire.
  17. The mighty ones, the seven times seven, have singly given me hundred gifts.
    I have obtained on Yamuna famed wealth in kine and wealth in steeds.

HYMN LIII. Maruts.

  1. Who knows the birth of these, or who lived in the Maruts’ favour in the days of old
    What time their spotted deer were yoked?
  2. Who, when they stood upon their cars, hath heard them tell the way they went?
    Who was the bounteous man to whom their kindred rains flowed down with food of sacrifice?
  3. To me they told it, and they came with winged steeds radiant to the draught,
    Youths, Heroes free from spot or stain: Behold us here and praise thou us;
  4. Who shine self-luminous with ornaments and swords, with breastplates, armlets, and with wreaths,
    Arrayed on chariots and with bows.
  5. O swift to pour your bounties down, ye Maruts, with delight I look upon your cars,
    Like splendours coming through the rain.
  6. Munificent Heroes, they have cast heaven's treasury down for the worshipper's behoof:
    They set the storm-cloud free to stream through both the worlds, and rainfloods flow o’er desert spots.
  7. The bursting streams m billowy flood have spread abroad, like milch-kine, o’er the firmament.
    Like swift steeds hasting to their journey's resting-place, to every side run glittering brooks.
  8. Hither, O Maruts, come from heaven, from mid-air, or from near at hand
    Tarry not far away from us.
  9. So let not Rasā, Krumu, or Anitabha, Kubha, or Sindhu hold you back.
    Let not the watery Sarayti obstruct your way. With us be all the bliss ye give.
  10. That brilliant gathering of your cars, the company of Maruts, of the Youthful Ones,
    The rain-showers, speeding on, attend.
  11. With eulogies and hymns may we follow your army, troop by troop, and band by band,
    And company by company.
  12. To what oblation-giver, sprung of noble ancestry, have sped
    The Maruts on this course to-day?
  13. Vouchsafe to us the bounty, that which we implore, through which, for child and progeny,
    Ye give the seed of corn that wasteth not away, and bliss that reacheth to all life.
  14. May we in safety pass by those who slander us, leaving behind disgrace and hate.
    Maruts, may we be there when ye, at dawn, in rest and toil, rain waters down and balm.
  15. Favoured by Gods shall he the man, O Heroes, Marutr! and possessed of noble sons,
    Whom ye protect. Such may we be.
  16. Praise the Free-givers. At this liberal patron's rite they joy like cattle in the mead.
    So call thou unto them who come as ancient Friends: hymn those who love thee with a song.

HYMN LIV. Maruts.

  1. THIS hymn will I make for the Marut host who bright in native splendour cast the mountains down.
    Sing the great strength of those illustrious in renown, who stay the heat, who sacrifice on heights of heaven.
  2. O Maruts, rich in water, strengtheners of life are your strong bands with harnessed steeds, that wander far.
    Trita roars out at him who aims the lightning-flash. The waters sweeping round are thundering on their way.
  3. They gleam with lightning, Heroes, Casters of the Stone, wind-rapid Maruts, overthrowers of the bills,
    Oft through desire to rain coming with storm of hail, roaring in onset, violent and exceeding strong.
  4. When, mighty Rudras, through the nights and through the days, when through the sky and realms of air, shakers of all,
    When over the broad fields ye drive along like ships, e’en to strongholds ye come, Maruts, but are not harmed.
  5. Maruts, this hero strength and majesty of yours hath, like the Sun, extended o’er a lengthened way,
    When in your course like deer with splendour unsubdued ye bowed the hill that gives imperishable rain.
  6. Bright shone your host, ye Sages, Maruts, when ye smote the waving tree as when the worm consumeth it.
    Accordant, as the eye guides him who walks, have ye led our devotion onward by an easy path.
  7. Never is he, O Maruts, slain or overcome, never doth he decay ne’er is distressed or harmed;
    His treasures, his resources, never waste away, whom. whether he be prince or Ṛṣi, ye direct.
  8. With harnessed team like heroes overcoming troops, the friendly Maruts, laden with their water-casks,
    Let the spring flow, and when impetuous' they roar they inundate the earth with floods of pleasant meath.
  9. Free for the Maruts is the earth with sloping ways, free for the rushing Ones is heaven with steep descents.
    The paths of air's mid-region are precipitous, precipitous the mountains with their running streams.
  10. When, as the Sun hath risen up, ye take delight, O bounteous radiant Maruts, Heroes of the sky,
    Your coursers weary not when speeding onṭheir way, and rapidly ye reach the end of this your path.
  11. Lances are on your shoulders, anklets on your feet, gold chains are on your breasts, gems, Maruts, on your car.
    Lightnings aglow with flame are flashing in your hands, and visors wroughtof gold are laid upon your heads.
  12. Maruts, in eager stir ye shake the vault of heaven, splendid beyond conception, for its shining fruit.
    They gathered when they let their deeds of might flash forth. The Pious Ones send forth a far-resounding shout.
  13. Sage Maruts, may we be the drivers of the car of riches ful I of life that have been given by you.
    O Maruts, let that wealth in thousands dwell with us which never vanishes like Tisya from the sky.
  14. Maruts, ye further wealth with longedfor heroes, further the Ṛṣi skilled in chanted verses.
    Ye give the Bhārata as his strength, a charger, and ye bestow a king who quickly listens.
  15. Of you, most swift to succour! I solicit wealth wherewith we may spread forth mid men like as the Sun.
    Accept, O Maruts, graciously this hymn of mine that we may live a hundred winters through its power.

HYMN LV. Maruts.

  1. WITH gleaming lances, with their breasts adorned with gold, the Maruts, rushing onward, hold high power of life.
    They hasten with swift steeds easy to be controlled. Their cars moved onward as they went to victory.
  2. Ye, as ye wist, have gained of your own selves your power: high, O ye Mighty Ones, and wide ye shine abroad.
    They with their strength have even measured out the sky.
    Their cars moved onward as they went to victory.
  3. Strong, born together, they together have waxed great: the Heroes more and more have grown to majesty
    Resplendent as the Sun's beams in their light are they. Their cars moved onward as they went to victory.
  4. Maruts, your mightiness deserves to be adored, sight to be longed for like the shining of the Sun.
    So lead us with your aid to immortality.
    Their cars moved onward as they went to victory.
  5. O Maruts, from the Ocean ye uplift the rain, and fraught with vaporous moisture pour the torrents down.
    Never, ye Wonder-Workers, are your Milch-kine dry. Their cars moved onward as they went to victory.
  6. When to your car-poles ye have yoked your spotted deer to be your steeds, and put your golden mantles on,
    O Maruts, ye disperse all enemies abroad. Their cars moved onward as they went to victory.
    7 Neither the mountains nor the rivers keep you back: whither ye have resolved thither ye, Maruts, go.
    Ye compass round about even the heaven and earth. Their cars moved onward as they went to victory.
    Whate’er is ancient, Maruts, what of recent time, whate’er is spoken, Vasus, what is chanted forth,
    They who take cognizance of all of this are ye. Their cars moved onward as they went to victory.
  7. Be gracious unto us, ye Maruts, slay us not extend ye unto us shelter of many a sort.
    Pay due regard unto our friendship and our praise. Their cars moved onward as they went to victory.
  8. O Maruts, lead us on to higher fortune deliver us, when lauded, from afflictions.
    Accept, ye Holy Ones, the gifts we bring you. May we be masters of abundant riches.

HYMN LVI. Maruts.

  1. AGNI, that valorous company adorned with ornaments of gold,
    The people of the Maruts, I call down to-day even from the luminous realm of heaven.
  2. Even as thou thinkest in thy heart, thither my wishes also tend.
    Those who have come most near to thine invoking calls, strengthen them fearful to behold.
  3. Earth, like a bounteous lady, liberal of her gifts, struck down and shaken, yet exultant, comes to us.
    Impetuous as a bear, O Maruts, is youi rush terrible as a dreadful bull..
  4. They who with mighty strength o’erthrow like oxen difficult to yoke,
    Cause e’en the heavenly stone to shake ' yea, shake the rocky mountain as they race along.
  5. Rise up! even now with lauds I call the very numerous company,
    Unequalled, of these Maruts, like a herd of kine, grown up together in their strength.
  6. Bind to your car the bright red mares, yoke the red coursers to your car.
    Bind to the pole, to draw, the fleet-foot tawny steeds, the best at drawing, to the pole.
  7. Yea, and this loudly-neighing bright red vigorous horse who hath been sutioned, fair to see,
    Let him not cause delay, O Maruts,, in your course, urge ye him onward in your cars.
  8. The Maruts’ chariot, ever fain to gather glory, we invoke,
    Which Rodasī hath mounted, bringing pleasant gifts, with Maruts in her company.
  9. I call that brilliant band of yours, adorable, rapid on the car
    Whereon the bounteous Dame, auspicious, nobly born, shows glorious with the Marut host.

HYMN LVII. Maruts.

  1. OF one accord, with Indra, O ye Rudras, come borne on your golden car for our prosperity.
    An offering from us, this hymn is brought to you, as, unto one who th irsts for water, heavenly springs.
  2. Armed with your daggers, full of wisdom, armed with spears, armed with your quivers, armed with arrows, with good bows,
    Good horses and good cars have ye, O Pṛśni's Sons: ye, Maruts, with good weapons go to victory.
  3. From hills and heaven ye shake wealth for the worshipper: in terror at your coming low the woods bow down.
    Ye make the earth to tremble, Sons of Pṛśni, when for victory ye have yoked, fierce Ones! your spotted deer.
  4. Bright with the blasts of wind, wrapped in their robes of rain, like twins of noble aspect and of lovely form,
    The Maruts, spotless, with steeds tawnyhued and red, strong in their mightiness and spreading wide like heaven.
  5. Rich in adornment, rich in drops, munificent, bright in their aspect, yielding bounties that endure,
    Noble by birth, adorned with gold upon their breasts, the Singers of the sky have won immortal fame.
  6. Borne on both shoulders, O ye Maruts, are your spears: within your arms is laid your energy and strength.
    Bold thoughts are in your heads, your weapons in your cars, all glorious majesty is moulded on your forms.
  7. Vouchsafe to us, O Maruts, splendid bounty in cattle and in steeds, in cars and heroes.
    Children of Rudra, give us high distinction: may I enjoy your Godlike help and favour.
  8. Ho! Maruts, Heroes, skilled in Law, immortal, be gracious unto us, ye rich in treasures,
    Ye hearers of the truth, ye sage and youthful, grown mighty, dwelling on the lofty mountains.

HYMN LVIII. Maruts.

  1. Now do I glorify their mighty cohort, the company of these the youthful Maruts,
    Who ride impetuous on with rapid horses, and radiant in themselves, are Lords of Amṛta.
  2. The mighty glittering band, arm-bound with bracelets, givers of bliss, unmeasured in their greatness,
    With magical powers, bountiful, ever-roaring,—these, liberal Heroes, venerate thou singer.
  3. This day may all your water-bringers, Maruts, they who impel the falling rain, approach us.
    This fire, O Maruts, hath been duly kindled; let it find favour with you, youthful Sages.
  4. Ye raise up for the folk an active ruler whom, Holy Ones! a Master's hand hath fashioned.
    Ye send the fighter hand to hand, armmighty, and the brave hero, Maruts with good horses.
  5. They spring forth more and more, strong in their glories, like days, like spokes where none are last in order.
    Highest and mightiest are the Sons of Pṛśni. Firm to their own intention cling the Maruts.
  6. When ye have hastened on with spotted coursers, O Maruts, on your cars with strong-wrought fellies,
    The waters are disturbed, the woods are shattered. Let Dyaus the Red Steer send his thunder downward.
  7. Even Earth hath spread herself wide at their coming, and they as husbands have with power impregned her.
    They to the pole have yoked the winds for coursers: their sweat have they made rain, these Sons of Rudra.
  8. Ho! Maruts, Heroes, skilled in Law, immortal, be gracious unto us, ye rich in treasures,
    Ye hearers of the truth, ye sage and youthful, grown mighty, dwelling on the lofty mountains.

HYMN LIX. Maruts.

  1. YOUR spy hath called to you to give prosperity. I sing to Heaven and Earth and offer sacrifice.
    They bathe their steeds and hasten through the firmament: they spread abroad their radiance through the sea of cloud.
  2. Earth shakes and reels in terror at their onward rush, like a full ship which, quivering, lets the water in.
    Marked on their ways are they, visible from afar: the Heroes press between in mighty armament.
  3. As the exalted horn of bulls for splendid might, as the Sun's eye set in the firmament's expanse,
    Like vigorous horses ye are beauteous to behold, and for your glory show like bridegrooms, O ye Men.
  4. Who, O ye Maruts, may attain the mighty lore of you the mighty, who may reach your manly deeds?
    Ye, verily, make earth tremble like a ray of light what time ye bring your boons to give prosperity,
  5. Like steeds of ruddy colour, scions of one race, as foremost champions they have battled in the van.
    The Heroes have waxed strong like we.1grown manly youths; with floods of rain they make the Sun's eye fade away,
  6. Having no eldest and no youngest in their band, no middlomost, preeminent they have waxed in might,
    These Sons of Pṛśni, sprung of noble ancestry: come hitberward to us, ye bridegrooms of the sky.
  7. Like birds of air they flew with might in lengthened lines from heaven's high ridges to the borders of the sky.
    The steeds who carry them, as Gods and mortals know, have caused the waters of the mounuains to desGend.
  8. May Dyaus, the Infinite, roar for our banquet: may Dawns toil for us, glittering with moisture.
    Lauded by thee, these Maruts, Sons o Rudra, O Ṛṣi, have sent down the heavenly treasure.

HYMN LX. Maruts.

  1. I LAUD with reverence the gracious Agni: here may he sit and part our meed among us.
    As with spoil-seeking cars I bring oblation: turned rightward I will swell the Marut's, praise-song.
  2. The Maruts, yea, the Rudras, who have mounted their famous spotted deer and cars swift-moving,—
    Before you, fierce Ones! woods bow down in terror: Earth, even the mountain, trembles at your coming.
  3. Though vast and tall, the mountain is affrighted, the height of heaven is shaken at your roaring
    When, armed with lances, ye are sporting, Maruts, and rush along together like the waters.
  4. They, like young suitors, sons of wealthy houses, have with their golden natures decked their bodies.
    Strong on their cars, the lordly Ones, for glory, have set their splendours on their forms for ever.
  5. None being eldest, none among them youngest, as brothers they have grown to happy fortune.
    May their Sire Rudra, young and deft, and Pṛśni pouring much milk, bring fair days to the Maruts.
  6. Whether, O blessed Maruts, ye be dwelling in highest, midmost, or in lowest heaven,
    Thence, O ye Rudras, and thou also, Agni, notice the sacrificial food we offer.
  7. O Maruts, Lords of all, when Agni and when ye drive downward from sublimest heaven along the heights,
    Shakers of all, rejoicing, slayers of the foe, give riches to the Soma-pressing worshipper.
  8. O Agni, with the Maruts as they gleam and sing, gathered in troop, rejoicing drink the Soma juice;
    With these the living ones who cleanse and further all, joined with thy banner, O Vaiśvānara, from of old.

HYMN LXI. Maruts.

  1. O HEROES lordliest of all, who are ye that have singly come
    Forth from a region most remote?
  2. Where are your horses, where the reins? How came ye? how had ye the power?
    Rein was on nose and seat on back.
  3. The whip is laid upon the flank. The heroes stretch their thighs apart,
    Like women when the babe is born.
  4. Go ye, O Heroes, far away, ye bridegrooms with a lovely Spouse
    That ye may warm you at the fire.
  5. May she gain cattle for her meed, hundreds of sheep and steeds and kine,
    Who threw embracing arms around the hero whom gyavaiva praised.
  6. Yea, many a woman is more firm and better than the man who turns
    Away from Gods, andoffers not.
  7. She who discerns the weak and worn, the man who thirsts and is in want
    She sets her mind upon the Gods.
  8. And yet full many a one, unpraised, mean niggard, is entitled man:
    Only in weregild is he such.
  9. And she, the young, the joyous-spirited, divulged the path to Śyāva, yea, to me.
    Two red steeds carried me to Purumīlha's side, that sage of far-extended fame,
  10. Him who, like Vaidadasvi, like Taranta, hath bestowed on me
    A hundred cows in liberal gift.
  11. They who are borne by rapid steeds, drinking the meath that gives delight,
    They have attained high glories here.
  12. They by whose splendour both the worlds are over-spread they shine on cars
    As the gold gleams above in heaven.
  13. That Marut band is ever young, borne on bright cars, unblamable,
    Moving to victory, checked by none.
  14. Who knoweth, verily, of these where the All-shakers take delight,
    Born, spotless, after sacred Law?
  15. Guides are ye, lovers of the song to mortal man through holy hymn,
    And hearers when he cries for help.
  16. Do ye, destroyers of the foe, worshipful and exceeding bright,
    Send down the treasures that we crave.
  17. OUrmya, bear thou far away to Darbhya this my hymn of praise,
    Songs, Goddess, as if chariot-borne.
  18. From me to Rathaviti say, when he hath pressed the Soma juice,
    The wish I had departeth not.
  19. This wealthy Rathaviti dwells among the people rich in kine,
    Among the mountains, far withdrawn.


Mandala VIII

HYMN VII. Maruts.

  1. O MARUTS, when the sage hath poured the Tṛṣṭup forth as food for you,
    Ye shine amid the mountain-clouds.
  2. When, Bright Ones, fain to show your might ye have determined on your course,
    The mountain-clouds have bent them down.
  3. Loud roaring with the winds the Sons of Pṛśni have upraised themselves:
    They have poured out the streaming food.
  4. The Maruts spread the mist abroad and make mountains rock and reel,
    When with the winds they go their way
  5. What time the rivers and the hills before your coming bowed them down,
    So to sustain your mighty force.
  6. We call on you for aid by night, on you for succour in the day,
    On you while sacrifice proceeds.
  7. These, verily, wondrous, red of hue, speed on their courses with a roar
    Over the ridges of the sky.
  8. With might they drop the loosened rein so that the Sun may run his course,
    And spread themselves with beams of light.
  9. Accept, ye Maruts, this my song, accept ye this mine hymn of praise,
    Accept, Ṛbhukṣans, this my call.
  10. The dappled Cows have poured three lakes, meath for the Thunder-wielding God,
    From the great cask, the watery cloud.
  11. O Maruts, quickly come to us when, longing for felicity,
    We call you hither from the sky.
  12. For, Rudras and Ṛbhukṣans, ye, Most Bountiful, are in the house,
    Wise when the gladdening draught is drunk.
  13. O Maruts, send us down from heaven riches distilling rapturous joy,
    With plenteous food, sustaining all.
  14. When, Bright Ones, hither from the hills ye have resolved to take your way,
    Ye revel in the drops effused.
  15. Man should solicit with his lauds happiness which belongs to them,
    So great a band invincible.
  16. They who like fiery sparks with showers of rain blow through the heaven and earth,
    Milking the spring that never fails.
  17. With chariots and tumultuous roar, with tempests and with hymns of praise
    The Sons of Pṛśni hurry forth.
  18. For wealth, we think of that whereby ye aided Yadu, Turvaśa,
    And KanVa who obtained the spoil.
  19. May these our viands Bounteous Ones I that flow in streams like holy oil,
    With Kaṇva's hymns, increase your might.
  20. Where, Bounteous Lords for whom the grass is trimmed, are ye rejoicing now?
    What Brahman is adoring you?
  21. Is it not there where ye of old, supplied with sacred grass, for lauds
    Inspired the strong in sacrifice?
  22. They brought together both the worlds, the mighty waters, and the Sun,
    And, joint by joint, the thunderbolt.
  23. They sundered Vṛtra limb from limb and split the gloomy mountain-clouds,
    Performing a heroic deed.
  24. They reinforced the power and strength of Trita as he fought, and helped
    Indra in battle with the foe.
  25. They deck themselves for glory, bright, celestial, lightning in their hands,
    And helms of gold upon their heads.
  26. When eagerly ye from far away came to the cavern of the Bull,
    He bellowed in his fear like Heaven.
  27. Borne by your golden-footed steeds, O Gods, come hither to receive
    The sacrifice we offer you.
  28. When the red leader draws along their spotted deer yoked to the car.
    The Bright Ones come, and shed the rain.
  29. Susoma, Saryakiavan, and Arjika full of homes, have they.
    These Heroes, sought with downward car.
  30. When, Maruts, ye come to him, the singer who invokes you thus,
    With favours to your suppliant?
  31. What now? where have ye still a friend since ye left Indra all alone?
    Who counteth on your friendship now?
  32. The Kaṇvas sing forth Agni's praise together with our Maruts’ who
    Wield thunder and wear swords of gold.
  33. Hither for new felicity may I attract the Impetuous Ones,
    The Heroes with their wondrous strength
  34. Before them sink the very hills deerning themseives abysses: yea,
    Even the mountains bend them down.
  35. Steeds flying on their tortuous path through mid-air carry them, and give
    The man who lauds them strength and life.
  36. Agni was born the first of all, like Sūrya lovely with his light:
    With lustre these have spread abroad.

HYMN XX Maruts.

  1. LET none, Swift Travellers! check you: come hither, like-spirited, stay not far away,
    Ye benders even of what is firm.
  2. Maruts, Ṛbhukṣans, Rudras come ye with your cars strong-fellied and exceeding bright.
    Come, ye for whom we long, with food, to sacrifice, come ye with love to Sobbari.
  3. For well we know the vigorous might of Rudra's Sons, the Martits, who are passing strong,
    Swift Viṣṇu's band, who send the rain.,
  4. Islands are bursting forth and misery is stayed: the heaven and earth are joined in one.
    Decked with bright rings, ye spread the broad expanses out, when ye, Self. luminous, stirred yourselves.
  5. Even things immovable shake and reel, the mountains and the forest trees at your approach,
    And the earth trembles as ye come.
  6. To lend free course, O Maruts, to your furious rush, heaven high and higher still gives way,
    Where they, the Heroes mighty with their arms, display their gleaming omaments on their forms.
  7. After their Godlike nature they, the bull. like Heroes, dazzling and impetuous, wear
    Great splendour as they show erect.
  8. The pivot of the Sobharis' chariot within the golden box is balmed with milk.
    May they the Well-born, Mighty, kindred of the Cow, aid us to food and to delight.
  9. Bring, ye who sprinkle balmy drops. oblations to your vigorous Marut company,
    To those whose leader is the Bull.
  10. Come hither, O ye Mares, on your stronghorsed car, solid in look, with solid naves.
    Lightly like winged falcons, O ye Heroes, come, come to enjoy our ofrerings.
  11. Their decoration is the same: their omaments of gold are bright upon their arms;
    Their lances glitter splendidly.
  12. They toil not to defend their bodies from attack, strong Heroes with their mighty arms.
    Strong are your bows and strong the weapons in your cars, and glory sits on every face.
  13. Whose name extendeth like a sea, alone, resplendent, so that all have joy in it,
    And life-power like ancestral might.
  14. Pay honour to these Maruts and sing praise to them, for of the wheel-spokes of the car
    Of these loud roarers none is last: this is their power, this moves them to give mighty gifts.
  15. Blest by your favouring help was he, O Maruts, at the earlier flushings of the morn,
    And even now shall he be blest.
  16. The strong man to whose sacrifice, O Heroes, ye approach that ye may taste thereof,
    With glories and with war that winneth spoil shall gain great bliss, ye Shakers of the world.
  17. Even as Rudra's Sons, the brood of the Creator Dyaus, the Asura, desire,
    O Youthful Ones, so shall it be:
  18. And these the bounteous, worthy of the Maruts who move onward pouring down the rain-
    Even for their sake, O Youthful Ones, with kindest heart take us to you to be your own.
  19. O Sobhari, with newest song sing out unto the youthful purifying Bulls,
    Even as a plougher to his steers.
  20. Who, like a celebrated boxer, overcome the challengers in every fight:
    They who, like shining bulls, are most illustrious-honour those Maruts with thy song.
  21. Allied by common ancestry, ye Maruts, even the Cows, alike in energy,
    Lick, all by turns, each other's head.
  22. Even mortal man, ye Dancers breast adorned with gold, attains to brotherhood with you.
    Mark ye and notice us, O Maruts; evermore your friendship is secured to us.
  23. O Maruts, rich in noble gifts, bring us a portion of the Maruts’ medicine,
    Ye Coursers who are Friends to us.
  24. Haters of those who serve you not, bliss-bringers, bring us bliss with those auspicious aids
    Wherewith ye are victorious and guard Sindhu well, and succour Krvi in his need.
  25. Maruts, who rest on fair trimmed grass, what balm soever Sindhu or Asikni hath,
    Or mountains or the seas contain.
  26. Ye carry on your bodies, ye who see it all: so bless us graciously therewith.
    Cast, Maruts, to the ground our sick man's malady: replace the dislocated limb.

HYMN LXXXIII. Maruts.

  1. THE Cow, the famous Mother of the wealthy Maruts, pours her milk:
    Both horses of the cars are yoked,—
  2. She in whose bosom all the Gods, and Sun and Moon for men to see,
    Maintain their everlasting Laws.
  3. This all the pious sing to us, and sacred poets evermore:
    The Maruts to the Soma-draught
  4. Here is the Soma ready pressed of this the Maruts drink, of this
    Self-luminous the Aśvins drink.
  5. Of this, moreover, purified, set in three places, procreant,
    Drink Varuṇa, Mitra, Aryaman.
  6. And Indra, like the Herald Priest, desirous of the milky juice,
    At early morn will quaff thereof.
  7. When have the Princes gleamed and shone through waters as through troops of foes'?
    When hasten they whose might ispure?
  8. What favour do I claim this day of you
    great Deities, you who are
    Wondrously splendid in yourselves?
  9. I call, to drink the Soma, those Maruts who spread all realms of earth
    And luminous regions of the sky.
  10. You, even such, pure in your might, you, O ye Maruts, I invoke
    From heaven to drink this Somajuice.
  11. The Maruts, those who have sustained and propped the heavens and earth apart,
    I call to drink this Soma juice.
  12. That vigorous band of Maruts that abidetb in the mountains, I
    Invoke to drink this Soma juice.

Mandala IX

No Hymn on Maruts

Mandala X

HYMN LXXVII. Maruts.

  1. As with their voice from cloud they sprinkle treasure so are the wise man's liberal sacrifices.
    I praise their Company that merits worship as the good Martits' priest to pay them honour.
  2. The youths have wrought their ornaments for glory through many nights,—this noble band of Maruts.
    Like stags the Sons of Dyatis have striven onward, the Sons of Aditi grown strong like pillars.
  3. They who extend beyond the earth and heaven, by their own mass, as from the cloud spreads Sūrya;
    Like mighty Heroes covetous of glory, like heavenly gallants who destroy the wicked.
  4. When ye come nigh, as in the depth of waters, the earth is loosened, as it were, and shaken.
    This your all-feedin sacrifice approaches: come all united, fraught, as ’twere with viands.
  5. Ye are like horses fastened to the chariot poles, luminous with your beams, with splendour as at dawn;
    Like self-bright falcons, punishers of wicked men, like hovering birds urged forward, scattering rain around.
  6. When ye come forth, O Maruts, from the distance, from the great treasury of rich possessions,
    Knowing, O Vasus, boons that should be granted, even from afar drive back the men who hate us.
  7. He who, engaged in the rite's final duty brings, as a man, oblation to the Maruts,
    Wins him life's wealthy fulness, blest with heroes: he shall be present, too, where Gods drink Soma.
  8. For these are helps adored at sacrifices, bringing good fortune by their name Ādityas.
    Speeding on cars let them protect our praises, delighting in our sacrifice and worship.

HYMN LXXVIII. Maruts.

  1. Ye by your hymns are like high-thoughted singers, skilful, inviting Gods with sacrifices;
    Fair to behold, like Kings, with bright adornment, like spotless gallants, leaders of the people:
  2. Like fire with flashing flame, breast-bound with chains of gold, like tempest-blasts, self-moving, swift to lend your aid;
    As best of all foreknowers, excellent to guide, like Somas, good to guard the man who follows Law.
  3. Shakers of all, like gales of wind they travel, like tongues of burning fires in their effulgence.
    Mighty are they as warriors clad in armour, and, like the Fathers' prayers, Most Bounteous Givers.
  4. Like spokes of car-wheels in one nave united, ever victorious like heavenly Heroes,
    Shedding their precious balm like youthful suitors, they raise their voice and chant their psalm as singers.
  5. They who are fleet to travel like the noblest steeds, long to obtain the prize like bounteous charioteers,
    Like waters speeding on with their precipitous floods, like omniform Aṅgirases with Sāma-hymns.
  6. Born from the stream, like press-stones are the Princes, for ever like the stones that crush in pieces;
    Sons of a beauteous Dame, like playful children, like a great host upon the march with splendour.
  7. Like rays of Dawn, the visitors of sacrifice, they shine with ornaments as eager to be bright.
    Like rivers hasting on, glittering with their spears, from far away they measure out the distances.
  8. Gods, send us happiness and make us wealthy, letting us singers prosper, O ye Maruts.
    Bethink you of our praise and of our friendship: ye from of old have riches to vouchsafe us.

Mandala I

16 Hymns on Maruts, 4 of them on their relationship with Indra
Last edited by RajeshA on 20 Jun 2012 21:33, edited 6 times in total.


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