LCA News and Discussions

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jun 2012 09:34

karan_mc wrote:
vic wrote:Guys, is LCA Mark-3 stealthy version true or DDM. Is seems to have caused no excitement at least on BRF here
Deep down every one is little disappointed what has been going on with Tejas Program , i remember has a kid watching on DD1 roll out of LCA TD-1 and for some reason it has stuck to my mind and after mind blogging years , it still in trials . Excitement will be there when in 2014-15 we see Tejas MK-2 take flight and Tejas MK-3 by 2017-18 . and speed in the production rate, current rate is slower then ferrari F12berlinetta rate of production .

Karan - when I was a kid I was told that by the year 2000 homes would be totally computer controlled and that the door would open after recognizing you and play music to suit your taste while the food cooked itself. Robots would do housework and that war would be fought with laser weapons and space travel would be commonplace with space stations and early settlements on the moon. This is one aspect of growing up, getting to middle age and beyond that offers you so many "disappointments" about the future that, at least for me, indicate that predictions of the future are always different from the real future. The robots of my childhood are there in microchips in my washing machine and car. The lasers are there in my communication, medicine and in data storage. I have things that were not predicted like ATMs, the internet and cellphones. The space part is also robots, as satellites in communication and weather prediction.

So I am definitely not disappointed. I am just more patient and less likely to believe time lines about technology.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 21 Jun 2012 09:38

pandyan - your point other than a personal attack is???

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2012 09:43

Tejas Mk3 is strictly ppt-ware at this point at most.
the Tejas mk2 has to enter service in numbers and be a distinguished performer before end user can contemplate a mk3.

time is not an issue. the basic F15A eagle entered service around 1974. and today F15SE,SK,SG are entering service ~40 years later, which means accounting for their 30 yr lifespan and assuming no further models the Eagle airframe design will have served for 70 years !! the B52 is expected to last until 2040...a 90 yr lifespan.

VLO platforms are not about to take over the world anytime soon. their astonishing cost and maintainence complexity ensures very low numbers and selective roles only for next few decades.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 21 Jun 2012 10:05

karan_mc wrote:
vic wrote:Guys, is LCA Mark-3 stealthy version true or DDM. Is seems to have caused no excitement at least on BRF here
Deep down every one is little disappointed what has been going on with Tejas Program , i remember has a kid watching on DD1 roll out of LCA TD-1 and for some reason it has stuck to my mind and after mind blogging years , it still in trials . Excitement will be there when in 2014-15 we see Tejas MK-2 take flight and Tejas MK-3 by 2017-18 . and speed in the production rate, current rate is slower then ferrari F12berlinetta rate of production .

Agree with you,i was in my early teens when i saw TD1 roll out with Hon.PM P.V Narasimha rao in the seat,i was very happy and excited at that time,down the years i lost half of my hair,world has changed so much,and even today we hear that LCA is not upto the mark

.

It may have happened with many successful aircraft's in the world,whether its true or paid DDM i don't know,but it definitely hurts to know that even today we are still far from reaching intial FOC.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 21 Jun 2012 11:27

pandyan wrote:
Vivek K wrote:pandyan - your point other than a personal attack is???
saar - my point was the LCA program was started to motivate youngsters...so, I am indirectly motivating him to directly contribute to the program in one way or the other (if he is an engineer, he could join drdo and do his part for the cause).

I am of the belief that we should worry only about the things that we can change...everything else, trust the people who are working on it.

Have you heard of democracy perhaps? He does have a right to his opinion and you can disagree without attacking him personally. One does not have to work for DRDO to be a "patriot" or work for the "cause". Everyone does his bit in his way. Criticism is essential to improve ourselves unless this is China where dissidence is not allowed.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jun 2012 17:14

shiv wrote:So I am definitely not disappointed. I am just more patient and less likely to believe time lines about technology.

that is a nice way to put., but we have to also consider that many will be converted to patients and no more docs to consult when milestones are not achieved in time. Time lines have a degree of tolerance too, and eventually it would be all just a push of a button, from the mostly unlikely crowd - politicians.

lca mk3 takes lower priority when one considers the core engine technology maturity. Kaveri is a must!.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 21 Jun 2012 20:25

pandyan wrote:OT:
my last post on this topic.

Mine too!

Perhaps I am exercising my democratic right to criticize his logic...

Well you could have listed the achievments of LCA and how far it has come for a country/industry that could not even support the HPT32 properly. Personal attack IMHO falls outside democratic privilege. Sorry for the OT. Cloak on!!

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Jun 2012 09:56

I am excited about LCA mark-3 as it keeps LCA family going, less ambitious then AMCA as it more like EADS MAKO, evolutionary design etc and can use Kaveri JV engine.
I expect LCA MK2 to fly around 2017 hence MK 3 should fly around 2025. To bridge the gap we must order for 20-60 more LCA MK-1

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Jun 2012 10:15

Actually for me, it is unfair to dream about Kaveri in LCA. We are setting an yardstick which Kaveri cannot fulfill. And then we would say that it failed. LCA is going to get heavier and people would want better TWR (natural progression of a fighter) ... Kaveri even with 90 kN is not going to make the cut.

Kaveri and it's spinoffs will have many applications, and it will be a stepping stone for many successful engine programs. Let us keep the expectations right. JMT.

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Jun 2012 11:58

I think that kaveri jv needs to be the drop in size of F414 and target 120 kn

Will · Post by **Will** » 22 Jun 2012 12:08

vic wrote:I think that kaveri jv needs to be the drop in size of F414 and target 120 kn

Wasnt there news that there was not going to be any JV?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 22 Jun 2012 13:34

LCA-Tejas has completed 1899 Test Flights successfully. (21-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-220,PV5-36,LSP3-62,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1891 Test Flights successfully. (16-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-217,PV5-36,LSP3-57,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Jun 2012 13:42

Are LSP-2 and LSP-3 in Pokran doing the bombing runs??

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 22 Jun 2012 13:58

It would seem so. A little bird told me that the LSPs are all being upgraded to the latest EC (engineering Change) levels. That may also explain the reason why the PVs are not flying. Ofcourse, EC levels would keep changing even after the A/C are handed over to the IAF. Idea would be to do what is necessary for IOC 2 and then keep changing when required, incorporating user feedback.

They are also supposed to go to Leh.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jun 2012 14:07

For aeons one has been saying that there should be synergy with our aerospace ambitions,esp. fighter aircraft.When we are investing very heavily into the FGFA/5th-gen Indo-Russian bird,there should be a spn-off into any on-going projects,for cost-effectiveness and leveraging the tech acquiired.That the LCA is still to deliver in the avatar that the IAF wants,thanks to the underperforming engine and still-born Kaveri,developing a UCAV out of Tejas should be a definite option.Perhaps our classified UCAV project has already gone in this direction.However,there are miles to go before MK-2 even flies and any results might be expected only by the decade,s end.By then we will have the FGFA in service and who knows what the IAF,s thinking will be at that time,except that UCAVs are the flavour of the decade.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 22 Jun 2012 18:36

DEBEL develops life support system for fighter aircraft

Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory (DEBEL) has almost completed the development of onboard oxygen generation system centric integrated life support system (ILSS) for India’s Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas).

“…now, nearing completion is integrated life support system based on onboard oxygen generation to provide unlimited flight endurance for our fighter aircraft”, DEBEL’s Director V C Padaki said at the inauguration of a new technical facility of DEBEL here.

DEBEL officials said the ILSS is expected to undergo flight trials by the year-end.

It was noted that the Tejas aircraft, with its multi-role capabilities and high manoeuvrability, would expose its pilot to extreme physiological stresses. The possibility of mid-air refuelling of Tejas enhances the mission endurance of the aircraft thus, necessitating the onboard generation of oxygen rather than depending on the conventional Gaseous oxygen (Gas-Ox) or Liquid Oxygen (LOX) systems.

In order to effectively counter the stresses and to meet the requirement of breathing oxygen in long duration missions, the aircraft has to be integrated with the critical ILSS, said officials of DEBEL, a life sciences lab of DRDO.

Chief Controller R&D (Life Sciences & International Collaboration), W Selvamurthy said the Army has ordered 700 units of Combat Free Fall (CFF) system for paratroopers,(which has been developed successfully by DEBEL for use by the special forces of Indian Army who undertake jumps from altitudes of 30,000 feet to sneak into enemy territory stealthily).

“Now, we are expecting thousands (of CFF system) to be ordered. This can be used by commandos, paramilitary for various counter-insurgency operations….), he said.

DEBEL officials said the system provides adequate breathing support to counter the effects of rarefied atmosphere and protection against intense cold experienced at high altitudes.

DEBEL developed the combat free fall oxygen system, protective clothing and equipment for paratroopers consisting of pre-breather console, personal bailout oxygen system, dilution demand oxygen regulator, oxygen mask, helmet, jumpsuit, gloves, boots, goggles and jack-knife.

Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister and Director General of DRDO, V K Saraswat, inaugurated the new technical facility with advanced test facilities and analytical equipment for its research and development programmes on cutting edge technologies in life support systems and biomedical devices.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 22 Jun 2012 19:48

pandyan wrote:karan_mc - if you had studied properly and had become an aero engineer, you could have helped the program reach its goals. Tejas might have entered in big numbers by now. Unfortunately, all you can do now is sit here and whine

Well sorry to disappoint you , my parents and my countrymen , i could not be Tony Stark of DRDO, and singly handedly fixed all the ills that Tejas has been facing

, and i also blame my countrymen like you , who never even encouraged me to be come aero engineer at first place

Any ways are you a Aero Engineer in the first place ?? , there are thousands of things on which i will have my personnel opinion on , yeh my country has democracy and every one is a whiner including you , don't tell me you never whine

, when some one says , Why there are potholes in road ? , go become a PWD engineer or a contractor ,i m motivating you. is not the answer.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 22 Jun 2012 20:17

shiv wrote: Karan - when I was a kid I was told that by the year 2000 homes would be totally computer controlled and that the door would open after recognizing you and play music to suit your taste while the food cooked itself. Robots would do housework and that war would be fought with laser weapons and space travel would be commonplace with space stations and early settlements on the moon. This is one aspect of growing up, getting to middle age and beyond that offers you so many "disappointments" about the future that, at least for me, indicate that predictions of the future are always different from the real future. The robots of my childhood are there in microchips in my washing machine and car. The lasers are there in my communication, medicine and in data storage. I have things that were not predicted like ATMs, the internet and cellphones. The space part is also robots, as satellites in communication and weather prediction.

So I am definitely not disappointed. I am just more patient and less likely to believe time lines about technology.

Shiv. When I was a kid (you were an elder kid) I used to read MECCANO MAGAZINE, which had Air News as a regular feature. One of the issues was devoted to the latest guided missiles like Bloodhound, Thundrbird, Red Top, Fire Streak, Blue Steel etc. The article said that the English Electric Lightening P1 would be the last manned aircraft. Soon missiles would do all the tasks.

But I still think that truth is stranger than fiction. Say about 15 years ago anybody thought you could get a phone connection within a day, in India ? He would be branded a lunatic of worse. But today.....

This was in late 1950s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers !

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jun 2012 20:33

Kersi D wrote:The article said that the English Electric Lightening P1 would be the last manned aircraft. Soon missiles would do all the tasks.

Even the mijjile of the man making the prediction would have stopped working now but it is an illustration of how magazines of that era did the job that Discovery/History channel does today. Highlight tech and make tall claims occasionally.

In India our people just don't have the knack. Even in Bengaluru it should be possible for one guy with a flair for writing to do a Discovery type program on the Metro project. 3857 piers, 13 million tons of concrete, 10,000 tons of steel, 270,000 truck trips, 18 million man hours blah blah blah. It's not difficult to state facts and trivia about things around you like "The big tree in Lalbagh is 749 years old and weights 376 tons" or "86 million tons of water wash up as waves on Juhu beach every hour"

We guys have been lapping it up in the 60s and our kids are doing that on Discovery today. Where are the people who can present simple facts and achievements in an attractive way. It really isn't difficult. But all we do is curse and rant while some guy comes and says 600 million indians shit out in the open"

manum · Post by **manum** » 22 Jun 2012 20:49

Well its not easy to work in India, When we are working on something with great intent, it takes up so much energy (specially here because its India) that only focus remains is success of goals and no extra...The basic gap of doing so many things is so large..with policies which don't encourage nor the politicians...you know you are on your own, believe at your own risk...

I am sure such persons, organization are not thinking of packaging...not now...We see great projection but mostly a lot of things crucial are "fill in the blanks" a lot of things are in corrective phase, which is so excruciating to even think about the clothes you wearing for years...India is still a very difficult country to dream...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jun 2012 07:17

LSP8 was supposed to fly this month, wondering if folks near airport are seeing some taxi trials, also there has been no news on LSP6; since AoA testing is for FOC has it been pushed out ?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 23 Jun 2012 08:27

shiv wrote: Even the mijjile of the man making the prediction would have stopped working now but it is an illustration of how magazines of that era did the job that Discovery/History channel does today. Highlight tech and make tall claims occasionally.

In India our people just don't have the knack. Even in Bengaluru it should be possible for one guy with a flair for writing to do a Discovery type program on the Metro project. 3857 piers, 13 million tons of concrete, 10,000 tons of steel, 270,000 truck trips, 18 million man hours blah blah blah. It's not difficult to state facts and trivia about things around you like "The big tree in Lalbagh is 749 years old and weights 376 tons" or "86 million tons of water wash up as waves on Juhu beach every hour"

We guys have been lapping it up in the 60s and our kids are doing that on Discovery today. Where are the people who can present simple facts and achievements in an attractive way. It really isn't difficult. But all we do is curse and rant while some guy comes and says 600 million indians shit out in the open"

+1 million

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jun 2012 09:45

suryag wrote:LSP8 was supposed to fly this month, wondering if folks near airport are seeing some taxi trials, also there has been no news on LSP6; since AoA testing is for FOC has it been pushed out ?

Per chaiwallahs, LSP-8 is still looong way from flying and advice was not to believe media reports about "almost ready to fly" etc.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jun 2012 09:50

i hope/pray your chaiwallah is wrong for a change

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Jun 2012 10:07

In absence of any reports of impending taxi trials, I would put LSP-8 around December hmmmmm 2012 for now!

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Jun 2012 10:14

TD1 & TD2, PV1 & 2 have not flown for a long time. Have they been scrapped?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 23 Jun 2012 10:14

suryag wrote: i hope/pray your chaiwallah is wrong for a change

Suryag

The current LCAs were each at a different level in terms of the bells & whistles they had.

The ongoing tests are now meant to re-evaluate the performance of the A/C with most major bells & whistles in place. Once the tests are over successfully on the full combination of bells & whistles, then these will be fitted into LSP7 and 8.

We would never be told about what these bells & whistles can actually do. it makes sense to me that they are now funneling all features into the A/C undergoing tests. They will be the complete pre-production version.

However, what perplexes me, as to the wake tests and the AoA. We can speculate about that. And hopefully we will get more news in the public domain. But I do suspect, that performance parameters will be under reported.

And I also expect that the first couple of A/C will be handed over to the IAF, this year. Not expecting any basic design flaws after about 1900 tests. Except for the fact that we expect that the LCA requires a more powerful engine.

Keep the faith. There are enough of our men and women who wear Bharat on their sleeves and who constantly strive to deliver the best in spite of the flaws in the PSU systems. I have had the pleasure of meeting some of them. Under paid but never lacking in patriotism and will to deliver. Sad about the flaws, but true.

As armchair Generals, Air Marshals and Admirals, we also wear Bharat on our sleeves.

Cheers.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 23 Jun 2012 10:16

suryag wrote: i hope/pray your chaiwallah is wrong for a change

I think there was a news report stating that LSP-8 would be ready by end of this year and SP-1 early next year!

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 23 Jun 2012 10:58

rajanb wrote:However, what perplexes me, as to the wake tests and the AoA. We can speculate about that. And hopefully we will get more news in the public domain. But I do suspect, that performance parameters will be under reported.

whether WAKE penetration tests have happened or not is unknown but atleast the CLAW team is ready for it and have accounted for it vis a vis simulation.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2012/06/cl ... rcame.html

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 23 Jun 2012 11:15

Pragnya,

Thanks a lot.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 23 Jun 2012 14:30

vic wrote:TD1 & TD2, PV1 & 2 have not flown for a long time. Have they been scrapped?

TD-1 and TD2 has been dismantled , and bare air frame will be moved soon to some where soon , PV1 is set to be converted into EW Variant , no info on PV-2

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jun 2012 02:50

vic wrote:I think that kaveri jv needs to be the drop in size of F414 and target 120 kn

there is something called RE (requirements engineering), which is actually has already emerged post 2005, has valuable processes and methods established to exactly know what is needed, how performance can be measured, how to break down the needs and wants, what are the real load factors, and MTOW, and T:W required, and even the super computing tasks, FADEC, etc all can be simulated and even design validated to feasibility.

Getting the turbine to specs has certain aspects that can be water-falled.. but taken in component based iterative approaches proving various aspects of needs. blades and engines alone could be tested out in a borrowed GE 414. or, FADEC micro-controller of GE 414 replaced with deshi ones.; there are 101 ways to validate needs.

we have come a big way in validating needs... we have learned lessons about T:w and MTWO with LCA, and hopefully get better with Mk2. JV is not necessary, and we continue the same way till we get the Kaveri - X version certified for higher kNs.

our process maturity has to be measured, and corrected. that is all. Just follow GE or PW, we can know how much of efforts they have put in.

All i ask is for IAF to freeze on its requirement for one product cycle. Any new needs and wants must be followed with a feedback from previous use, and not by new requirements. squadron based tranche approach will make it somewhat agile enough for kaveri to survive [meaning, couple of squadron is a must for proceeding to next version].

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Jun 2012 12:39

All indications are that LSP-8 is slipping towards Jan-Feb 2013 and SP-1 towards June 2013.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 24 Jun 2012 20:09

pandyan wrote:
karan_mc wrote: Well sorry to disappoint you ....
OT
my response here..pliss to take the discussion to this thread
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4631&start=1600

Please motivate me

, i m not interested in joining you there , enjoy u stay there

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 24 Jun 2012 20:13

Ivanev wrote:
suryag wrote: i hope/pray your chaiwallah is wrong for a change
I think there was a news report stating that LSP-8 would be ready by end of this year and SP-1 early next year!

LSP-8 and SP-1 will also have it first flight by end of this year and SP-2 will have first flight in 2013 ,

I think , you are referring to this article , hope they can squeeze LSP-8 and SP-1 by year end

Link

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 25 Jun 2012 15:50

Naval version of light combat aircraft
CSIO gadget for Tejas to be tested in July
Vijay Mohan/TNS

Chandigarh, June 24
The head-up display (HUD) for the naval version of the Tejas light combat aircraft is scheduled to be flight-tested next month. The naval version of the aircraft had undertaken its maiden test flight on April 27.

The HUD is an opto-electronic gadget installed above the cockpit’s instrument panel that superimposes vital flight parameters on the pilot’s vision of the outside world, giving him all requisite information at a glance and without having him to peer down inside the cockpit, thus enabling him to fly with his “head up”. Air speed, altitude, weapon status, rate of turn and angle of attack are among parameters displayed on the HUD.

Prototypes of the HUD’s naval version have been fabricated by the Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) here and one unit is being integrated into the naval fighter’s cockpit by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

A team of scientists from the CSIO are in Bangalore for the purpose.

The HUD for the naval version is a further development of the HUD produced for the air force version of the Tejas. The air force version has already been integrated into the cockpit and several units have been installed in the Tejas’ prototype and limited series production aircraft.

The HUD for the naval version is technologically more advanced and has different technical specifications than the air force version and the operating parameters, cockpit configuration and the pilot’s field of vision are different.

The naval version is also designed to withstand the impact of harder landings on the aircraft carrier’s deck vis-a-vis landing on runways.

The CSIO has transferred the technology to the Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) for commercial production of the air force version of the HUD. The Panchkula unit of the BEL has produced about 45 such units. In addition, two HUD units have also been fabricated by the CSIO for the HJT-36 trainer developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and a project is underway to develop an HUD for the HAL’s intermediate jet trainer.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jun 2012 16:58

X posting from PAK-FA thread..

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yv3-Nw0dZcg/T ... 0/1111.jpg

pl discuss..

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jun 2012 17:33

^ Is it not odd to see LCA which is termed as MiG-21++, three legged Chetah, is grouped with 5th gen fighters like AMCA and FGFA?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Jun 2012 19:43

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1903 Test Flights successfully. (22-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-223,PV5-36,LSP3-63,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1899 Test Flights successfully. (21-June-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-220,PV5-36,LSP3-62,LSP4-56,LSP5-95,LSP7-3,NP1-3)

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 25 Jun 2012 21:24

The HUD for the naval version is technologically more advanced and has different technical specifications than the air force version and the operating parameters, cockpit configuration and the pilot’s field of vision are different.

I don't get this!! does this assume that Air Force LCA will never have to attack through sea or ships, etc?

Why the HUD needs to be different between Naval and Air force versions?