China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jun 2012 14:58

asymmetric response availibility is why the americans did not bother with developing big anti-ship missiles of the granit or yakhont type, they had enough subs armed with torps and harpoons for the job.

I am curious to know what kind of arctic CVBG exercises nato conducts...heard of upto 4 american carriers operating together north of the article circle and also in the Fjords of norway. what they do with 350m long ships in the confined waters of fjords is also something my curious mind wants to know.

wrdos · Post by **wrdos** » 16 Jun 2012 19:04

China puts its first woman astronaut into orbit

http://news.yahoo.com/china-puts-first- ... 54354.html

JIUQUAN, China (Reuters) - China put its first woman into orbit on Saturday, one of three astronauts to attempt a critical space docking in the latest challenge for the country's ambitious space programme.

A Long March rocket blasted off in the early evening from the remote Jiuquan Satellite Launch Centre in the northwestern Gobi Desert, carrying with it the Shenzhou 9 spacecraft and the three astronauts, including 33-year-old female fighter pilot Liu Yang.

This is China's fourth manned space mission since 2003 when astronaut Yang Liwei became the country's first person in orbit, and comes as the United States has curtailed manned launches over budget concerns and changing priorities.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Jun 2012 19:21

^^ Congrats to the Chinese...

They sure are making giant strides!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2012 20:30

It is an achievement indeed.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 16 Jun 2012 21:23

carrier derivative of a land-based Su-27 might not have all its theoretical advantages. Naval air battles are going to be more on what khan calls co-op engagement mode - ship based, helo and UAV based long-range sensors cueing crafts for taking BVR shots against incoming. Su-27 in that context is a curious animal. Large radar footprint, lesser fuel etc, unless it is able to sneak in closer for doing WVR abhyas.

Su-27 derivative on land is a beast and the naval one looks good on paper. But if you add in other params like fuel, loadout etc from a carrier, that thing seems like relic of the soviet era thinking of "going big". Suits Chicom's marchpast agenda too

But a cat will change that.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jun 2012 22:01

Congratulations are in order. Indeed great achievement.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 16 Jun 2012 22:07

wrdos wrote:China puts its first woman astronaut into orbit

http://news.yahoo.com/china-puts-first- ... 54354.html

JIUQUAN, China (Reuters) - China put its first woman into orbit on Saturday, one of three astronauts to attempt a critical space docking in the latest challenge for the country's ambitious space programme.

A Long March rocket blasted off in the early evening from the remote Jiuquan Satellite Launch Centre in the northwestern Gobi Desert, carrying with it the Shenzhou 9 spacecraft and the three astronauts, including 33-year-old female fighter pilot Liu Yang.

This is China's fourth manned space mission since 2003 when astronaut Yang Liwei became the country's first person in orbit, and comes as the United States has curtailed manned launches over budget concerns and changing priorities.

Congratulations to the Chinese people and its state. This is truly a remarkable achievement. Hope you keep up the tempo. I hope the Chinese are planning for a human-moon landing and have their eyes set on rocks beyond the moon.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2012 22:11

their eyes have set on h3 when once abdul kalamji talked about it.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Jun 2012 22:12

Even ISRO congratulated the Chinese:

Indian space scientists praise Chinese space feat

India's top space scientists praised China's maiden mission of manned docking of its space lab even as New Delhi's own human space flight programme seems to have lost momentum.

"It's a wonderful thing that has happened," ex-Chairman of Indian Space Research Organisation, U R Rao told PTI here. "Essentially, they are making sure that they are going ahead systematically with manned mission programme".

China today launched its longest and heaviest rocket to sent its first woman astronaut in space as part of a three- member team to conduct its maiden manned docking of its space lab being built to rival Russia's Mir International Space Station.

Another former ISRO Chairman, G Madhavan Nair said China is marching forward in manned space programme with a lot of aggression. ISRO first formally mooted the proposal on human space flight programme after about 80 senior scientists from across the country participated in a meeting to discuss the issues related to Indian manned space mission in 2006.

Back-to-back failure of India's Geosynchronous Space Launch Vehicle (GSLV) -- one with home-grown cryogenic engine and another Russian one -- in 2010, put brakes on India's proposed human space flight, which ISRO was eyeing in 2008-09 to undertake it in the 2015-16 time-frame.

ISRO officials in private now say they do not expect such a mission before 2020. Rao, meanwhile, also said China's defence and space programmes have lot of synergy. "Their largest missile has a 13,000 km reach. They can practically reach anybody on the earth".

He said India has not started any manned mission programme at all. "We have to have much larger and much more powerful launch vehicle," Rao said. Nair was more forthright.

Despite the failure of twin GSLV missions, he said ISRO should have taken up the human space programme parallel with other space programmes. "We had picked up momentum after the Chandrayaan mission. Precious three years have been lost. As far as India is concerned, we have missed a great opportunity. By this time, we would gone half-way through (if we started three years ago)," Nair said

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2012 22:14

I would like ISRO to send a team to dock with ISS. we have something to boast better than chinese.. get into the books right away on the mission statement.. time is ticking.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 16 Jun 2012 23:11

Hold on Sirs. We don't know how much is gimmick/photoshop and how much is stolen and how much is real.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2012 01:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR7wR0aUpuE

on you tube

excellent clean burn fuel

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 17 Jun 2012 07:03

Christopher Sidor wrote:
wrdos wrote:China puts its first woman astronaut into orbit

http://news.yahoo.com/china-puts-first- ... 54354.html

Congratulations to the Chinese people and its state. This is truly a remarkable achievement. Hope you keep up the tempo. I hope the Chinese are planning for a human-moon landing and have their eyes set on rocks beyond the moon.

Fair enough. Thats a quick return to space and put a woman in there.
Well done and Congrats to them

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 17 Jun 2012 07:07

Good pics of Vik out and inside. Check out the quarters etc.

http://jjamwal.in/blog/2012/05/ins-vikr ... rrier.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2012 09:56

if those quarters are for all crew and not just officers - look spacious and better than american carriers which tend to be quite cramped and have 3 tier bunks for crew and only officers get 2 tier bunks iirc.

http://www.militaryaircrafthistorian.co ... arters.jpg

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/22 ... 7-7008.jpg

I once visited a east german tarantul class missile boat docked in new haven MA maritime museum. for its length, it was a ship of broad beam and surprisingly very spacious inside the areas that were open to the tour.

Don · Post by **Don** » 19 Jun 2012 19:28

http://news.yahoo.com/china-conduct-aut ... EAvsKPIsF_
China in first automatic, manned space docking

China completed its first automatic space docking on a manned mission Monday, before the three astronauts on board enter an orbiting module -- a key step towards the nation's first space station

.

China aims to complete construction of a space station by 2020, a goal that requires it to perfect docking technology

The technique is hard to master because the two vessels, placed in the same orbit and revolving around the Earth at thousands of kilometres per hour, must come together very gently to avoid destroying each other.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 21 Jun 2012 00:00

India mulls joint military exercises with China

India is planning to propose joint military exercises with China which will also include army-to-army exercises, sources said.The armies of the two countries last held counter insurgency and counter terrorism wargames codenamed ‘Hand-in-Hand’ in 2009 in Belgaum in India and prior to that in China in 2007.

India and China had agreed to enhance defence exchanges and communications for better understanding and mutual trust during the fourth round of Annual Defence Dialogue (ADD) held here in December last year after a tumultuous two years for military ties.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 21 Jun 2012 00:10

SaiK wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR7wR0aUpuE

on you tube

excellent clean burn fuel

Indeed very impressive....

songfeihong · Post by **songfeihong** » 22 Jun 2012 14:18

http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=1677038148

It is being transported from Shenyang to Xi'an.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 22 Jun 2012 15:26

songfeihong wrote:http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=1677038148

It is being transported from Shenyang to Xi'an.

which aircraft is this?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 22 Jun 2012 17:03

adityadange wrote:
songfeihong wrote:http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=1677038148

It is being transported from Shenyang to Xi'an.
which aircraft is this?

L-15 Lead-In Fighter Trainer (LIFT).

It looks like it has fallen to the right and broken it's wing.

songfeihong · Post by **songfeihong** » 22 Jun 2012 17:17

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/read.php?tid=707 ... d=&page=11

SAC F-60

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 22 Jun 2012 19:22

^^ is China perusing 2 projects for 5th Gen fighters

if yes then we should speed up our AMCA project and PAKFA testing & induction. These Chinese cutting down the technology gap between them and US very fast, either by stealing or copying.

If once they success in making fighter comparable to 5th Gen then Pakistan will also have it. I don't want that to happen in next 20 years.

GeorgeM · Post by **GeorgeM** » 22 Jun 2012 20:01

SaiK wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR7wR0aUpuE

on you tube

excellent clean burn fuel

That could be because the Chinese didnt use a million gallons of water to dampen the sound. The launch pad appears to be in the middle of nowhere. So unlike the US launch they may not have sound dampening requirements. Check google and you will see that there a huge water tank right under the US shuttle launch pads, plus they pump in many more.

Another factor is the fuel used. When you say clean burn, one would think less polluting as it burns clean with no soot, CO, NOx etc. I think you meant no smoke, hence clean burn. It is a case of different fuel here. Chinese use UDMH which is highly toxic/polluting, but appears clear, unlike Space Shuttle with H2 and O2. But some of the US rocket core still use UDMH (Titan ?)

Nothing on fuel that they invented new. Great effort. Only if they could reduce their belligerence and focus more on Asia axis

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jun 2012 10:00

songfeihong wrote:http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/read.php?tid=707 ... d=&page=11

SAC F-60

I doubt those are any thing beyond Full Scale Mock Up or some wind tunnel model of what appears to be some fighter aircraft may be new type.

Looking at the way Chinese has maintained a cover on J-20 and J-10 program for a long time , it would be too liberal of them to show any thing even a mockup of new fighter.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jun 2012 13:10

Spy sub had China target
by: Paul Lampathakis

From: The Sunday Times

June 16, 2012

A WA submarine was spying on Chinese war vessels at the time of a
high-profile accident that saw five sailors washed overboard.

In revelations set to cause fresh tensions between Canberra and
Beijing, The Sunday Times has learnt that HMAS Farncomb was "keeping an
eye on the Chinese submarine fleet", including activities such as
decoding communications systems, when fishing line tangled in its
propeller in March 2007.

Sources said Farncomb - which is based at Perth's HMAS Stirling base -
had to wait for the cover of night before surfacing for repairs because
it was in a "strategically sensitive" area.

The claims are the latest to shake Australian-Chinese relations after
details emerged that the Rudd Government's 2009 defence planning
reportedly canvassed a scenario of war with China where Australian
submarines would help US forces blockade China's trade routes.

End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.

Farncomb's accident was made public only in 2009 when the Royal
Australian Navy announced bravery medals would be awarded to three crew
members who rescued the five swept off the top of the surfaced
submarine on March 19, 2007, while trying to repair the propeller.

Focusing on the sailors' heroism, media reports said the Farncomb was
in international waters on a spy mission as part of a five-month
deployment in South-East Asia, including Thailand, and the western
Pacific.

But well-placed naval sources told The Sunday Times: "They were keeping
an eye on the Chinese submarine fleet. They were decoding
communications systems.

"They were determining capabilities (of Chinese submarines). (The area)
was so strategically sensitive that they couldn't surface the boat in
the middle of the day.

"It had to secretly surface in the night and risk people's (crew
members') lives because where they were, they couldn't risk making
noise."

The sources said a "massive Chinese submarine base" at Hainan Island in
the South China Sea had become a major concern for Australian and US
forces, and that a reason Australia was important to the US-Australian
alliance was because of its submarine activities.

Responding to the spying claims and questions about other Australian
covert missions regarding China, a Department of Defence spokeswoman
said: "The Chief of Navy has made it clear that we do not talk about
submarine operations for reasons of national security."

Notre Dame University political analyst Martin Drum said the issue
would raise more questions for Defence Minister Stephen Smith about the
extent of spying activities against China and create further tensions
between the two countries.sAustralia and China at a time when Chinese
investment in Australia had become a "significant political issue".

songfeihong · Post by **songfeihong** » 23 Jun 2012 14:22

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 3B/page301

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jun 2012 21:42

^^ Kindly provide a one liner as to what is being pointed to in the link. Will help the forumite to decide if it is worth clicking the link or not.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jun 2012 12:18

From mp.net pics , this seems to be a twin engine bird but smaller than J-20 so likely powered by two 80-90 Kn engine ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jun 2012 12:19

Chinese Submersible Dives Below Record 7,000 Meters

Don · Post by **Don** » 24 Jun 2012 13:25

Austin wrote:From mp.net pics , this seems to be a twin engine bird but smaller than J-20 so likely powered by two 80-90 Kn engine ?

Check out the bottom part J -21
http://cnair.top81.cn/J-20_J-21.htm#J-21

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2012 13:32

if its real, this would be the A2A oriented bird in the stable.

Don · Post by **Don** » 24 Jun 2012 13:39

Singha wrote:if its real, this would be the A2A oriented bird in the stable.

We shall see soon enough, apparently this will be rolled out around September in Shenyang. Your guess is as good as mine.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jun 2012 14:37

Don wrote:
Austin wrote:From mp.net pics , this seems to be a twin engine bird but smaller than J-20 so likely powered by two 80-90 Kn engine ?

Check out the bottom part J -21
http://cnair.top81.cn/J-20_J-21.htm#J-21

Looks fine with huge conventional control surfaces and big vertical stabiliser like the F-22 , can see shades of F-22 and F-35 in J-21 design.

As i guessed it it has 95 Kn engine each , should end up being a mid range fighter with J-20 is the top end , likely swing role fighter with Air Superiority in mind.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 24 Jun 2012 14:41

^^

this is serious

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2012 14:59

well a mid sized A2A bird based around same technologies was inevitable. the J20 will likely be a long range PLANAF strike fighter and cruise missile bird. this one will be the successor to the Su30/J10 in due course.

its hard to argue the case of the J20 as a nimble fighter because it isnt.

Don · Post by **Don** » 24 Jun 2012 16:58

Singha wrote:well a mid sized A2A bird based around same technologies was inevitable. the J20 will likely be a long range PLANAF strike fighter and cruise missile bird.

I don't disagree with what you said, however, I think the J20 is probably capable of doing MIG 31 style air defense patrol with its big radar and large missile payload.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2012 18:06

true. meteor/amos type missiles in long range mode will work good.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 24 Jun 2012 18:54

Don wrote:
Singha wrote:well a mid sized A2A bird based around same technologies was inevitable. the J20 will likely be a long range PLANAF strike fighter and cruise missile bird.
I don't disagree with what you said, however, I think the J20 is probably capable of doing MIG 31 style air defense patrol with its big radar and large missile payload.

There is some element of truth in what both of you said. The Soviets designed Mig-31 for intercepting hostile aircraft over their vast airspace. Due to the sheer size of Soviet Union, it was not possible to ring their entire boundary with fighters. Hence the need for Mig-31 which could track multiple targets and had a massive range.

China faces a similar problem with respect to US and its allies in Western Pacific and to a certain degree with respect to India in Tibet too. Due to high altitude and other reasons, it is not feasible to station fighters to take on IAF on Tibetan highlands. They have to depend primarily on Air-defense networks. But a J-20, that to with its speculated "range" could be used effectively against Indian forces in north east and possible north-west too.

But a lot depends on what they configure the massive bays of J-20 with, either armaments or fuel. With air-to-air refueling, it would make sense to configure the fighter with armaments, but it would impact the combat radius of the fighter.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 24 Jun 2012 21:30

Here's a very broad question for those in the business - are the Chinese anywhere as good at reverse engineering code as they are at reproducing hardware? Modern aircraft have millions of lines of code, and the emerging generation of autonomous optional man in the loop UAVs are that much more sophisticated. How much catching up does the Chinese software industry have to do to even make use of success in say hacking through to Lockheed Martin's secure servers and downloading everything that runs on a UCAV and its ground support terminal?