Acharya wrote:Murugan wrote:Ravi_g,
There is no evidence E in PIE as far as numbers are concerned. till late 400 AD they used M, I, X etc to denote numbers. Now they are MIXin E in PI to feel good.
Indians by that time invented the value of PI
wiki says
In India around 600 BC, the Shulba Sutras (Sanskrit texts that are rich in mathematical contents) treat π as (9785/5568)2 ≈ 3.088.[27] In 150 BC, or perhaps earlier, Indian sources treat π as ≈ 3.1622.[28]
E is insignificant. Whenever you read PIE, think about scam
This is the single biggest evidence to show the falsehood of PIE and how IVC had independent culture and languages without outside inputs. This should be quoted to show how disconnected AIT are from the facts.
Acharya ji namaskar,
The way I see it the history makes sense only when viewed from the Prism of the Mahasankalpa mantra because only then can you explain the relationship between India, Iran, Mittanis and Polytheistic and Sun worshiping Egypt. Without this we will require as may assumptions as there are observations. When you say IVC you know you should have said SIVC. But the reality does not end there.
And in such a scenario an independent culture becomes a rather difficult idea. More like a shared culture across passport boundaries. More like culture of Jumbhudwipa, Bharatvarsha (not just Bharatkhand) that was later subverted by various Malechas and to the subversion of which some of the people within took an active part. With the outsiders (Malechas) of varying times trying to usurp the few treasures that have fallen to the ground away from the owner. Uropeans being the most recent of these.
Allow me to elaborate. Surely Indians have been amongst the most accomplished traders. Indians have had a respect for a good ‘idea’ from very ancient times. Just about every trader would have recognized a great idea the moment he saw one.
I also believe that all this business of AIT/AMT/PIE is really to conjure up some history more specifically a ‘pride worthy history’ for the Uropains esp. those amongst them who are still living in their colonialist past. This becomes important in later part of my write up. Kindly bookmark it for now.
It is purported to be a singular band of warrior poets that created the underlying philosophy of RV and seeded everything in the ‘known world’. The problem with this is it requires the presence of supermen to do that. We may as well believe in 6 ft. dicks instead of the more SDRE 6 in. one that is quite conspicuous by its invisibility and the size of the pants.
More likely explanation is that the people who build up the framework of RV proper build it upon a big body of existing but probably an orally transmitted knowledge and that too of different lineages. Instead of being purely oral it could even have been transmitted via temporarily written medium, like on sand or even by way of using wet chalk/ink/khalli on a wooden board/Paati, used by the kind of people who sit on durries/boris/hessian bags basically everybody in the Indic tradition. Only in such a scenario can you explain the strange sitting together of so many ideas. For this even if you are unable to figure a trading and urban society in RV you still have the crutches of the practicing Sanyaasi or travelling monks to rely upon. Seems to me a pretty valid crutch in the absence of any direct evidence.
Now while a smart work can only result from other smart works, this has one more corollary to it and a very verifiable effect. Such thought process has to get carried into newer works that in turn are based on philosophy extended in and by RV. From ‘not this not this’ to ‘what the **** is it’ to ‘huh nothing’ is a short hop.
The moment you say ‘nothing’ you can experience escape if you are a dumb idiot but not so if you are any good. Because now you have to show how and when to use ‘nothing’. You basically need a whole new philosophy that needs to explain ‘nothing’. The Sagun part is easy. You see and you can experiment with what you observe and convince yourself as to the validity of a system based on it. ‘Nothing’ is not as easy as Sienfeld would have you believe. A complete new alternative is what is required.
Now you need to build up practical maths around ‘nothing’ to be able to make use of it. Only then are people going to be convinced of ‘nothing’. Now ‘nothing’ can be contorted into a ‘blank’ or a ‘zero’. If you substitute your one cow with say a symbol ‘1’ you can live with this observation. You would not be any worse if your ten cows are accounted for as a symbol ‘||||||||||’ (basically tally marks) or even ‘#$@#’ (symbols) or even ‘1_’ or even (1’) (actually used). Zero is really not needed for so much. Ask the Romans. You need it only if you want to some smarter stuff. So Ten/Dus/Deka does not necessarily imply existence of zero. Unfortunately by comparing the existing decimal value terminology with so called PIE numerical terminology the ‘Peer Reviewed Scientific Linguists’ have committed themselves to a new concept. They have left philosophy and poetry behind and embraced maths. Now they ought to know what they are writing and they ought to explain whether Deka means any of the above or if it means ‘10’. Then they should bloody well know whether 10+10 gives ‘20’ or does it give ‘||||||||||||||||||||’ or even ‘#$@##$@#’ or even ‘1_1_’ or even (1’1’) and so on a so forth after every addition of 10.
So you see you cannot really challenge the ‘Peer Reviewed Scientific Linguists’ on Deka with the idea of ‘sunya’. But you can with the idea of notation and system thereof.
OTOH, for the real world of earlier times. They have to prove the validity of their initial ideation by moving on to more complex ideas. It is this, that is sought to be controlled by the ‘Peer Reviewed Scientific Linguists’ and cabalists. You see Acharya ji, not just the RV but every single body of Indian tradition has been ante-dated mostly with entirely zero evidence or the type of evidence that sought to establish some book of RV as being later and some as earlier. Basically by linguistics (to account for SN_Ranjan ji’s sensitivities historical linguistics). When in fact linguistics itself is such a sorry idea that the less said about it the better. Then once you have established the count of ‘nothing’ you also have to establish the shape of ‘nothing’. Shapes are something you see. So you basically cannot avoid it. And slowly and gradually you arrive at other ideas like angles and decimals. Almost everything being intimately interrelated. Now if you observe carefully about the only people who have canonised these works or used them in their religious rituals or ascribed meanings to them are the Buddhists, Jains and Hindus. The rest basically sought to control it and its meaning. I suspect because it was foreign to their equally mature cities and systems of governance.
When I see this rationing of ideas and controlling of thoughts you can rest assured somebody is upto no good. But here in also lies the catch for such people. You see all the controlling and rationing is sought to be done by obfuscating the obvious, under the belief of ‘ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny’. The belief is that if you control the origin you control the future. There are some subsets of people in general who wanted to control the origin in various ways. Sometimes the control was sought by way of ‘The Book’ which stated that the origin was on phalaan-phalaan date. Sometimes it took the form of witch hunts. At times it was manipulation of the books and philosophy of others, a kind of cognoscenti cussing. The ante dating is just one of the ilk.
Unfortunate part for such people is that when you come up with any body of knowledge, it helps you understand yourself too. It basically changes you. You now no longer are the one you were even if you probably were of the same group as the believers of ‘ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny’ to begin with. And once you are changed your offsprings will obviously carry your mutation/meme. So now on the one hand you have a system based on ‘peer review system’ that simply cannot provide for the vagabonds like the average BRF member. OTOH you have an ‘open integrative system’ which implies you pretty much do what you want to and know well that what goes around comes around. Lets call them ‘Lineage M’ and ‘Lineage O’ respectively. This kind of system can easily accommodate the ‘peer review system’ without getting overwhelmed by it and yet spawn new variants of every idea that it accepts, new ideas being essential for the process of integration to grow bigger. The distinction is really more profound in the way each of these systems behaves in the real world. So you have different types of focus in the polity, sciences, laws, mathematics. Basically different ends for different people, that need to be justified by different means. This kind of system will necessarily not get overwhelmed by the continuous process of a differing origin and will not create any anxiety while at the same time people will fight for their unique system, since it is born out of their unique needs. So you see both subsets will create more of their own kind and further their own kind.
Taking if further it implies that if you have a certain kind of maths at one place it is because you had a need for that kind of maths and if you have that kind of maths you will spawn new ideas of the same kind. So that set me thinking. If we place RV before 1900 BC, by the Saraswati River drying up evidence, then surely it should provide new knowledge afterwards that in turn will need to be falsified because the two different lineages would have grown differently by that time. Sure enough you see that. Later on in the story of Pythagoras Theorem you will see just that. Also we have the philosophy of RV we need certain kind of maths for the rituals established by that philosophy which will be different from the rituals of the other kind of philosophy. Sure enough you see that too. Hell you should also see different kinds of meanings ascribed to these rituals. Well that has happened too (evident in the OIT thread between Shiv ji and ManishH ji).
Ok now how does Pythagoras comes in. Well, when you think of shapes you think of bricks for city construction, design of buildings, design of ritual altars. Surely the brick suppliers would have been looking for a ‘cheaper’ brick and the head of the ritual would have been looking for the ‘bestest’ brick. And if complex rituals like Agnicayana / Agnisyena, requiring complex altars like the falcon altar with different kinds of ‘ordinary’ and ‘special’ bricks are any indication then the Pythagoras could easily have been discovered by the Vedics proper because such fire rituals are based on RV hymns and the exposition I believe comes in Satapata Brahmana (1000 BC by Lineage M dating). Now look how the Pythagoras is sought to be hidden.
If you net search for Pythagoras in India. You will find that the reference to Susa tablet 1600 BC is made, which puts the Pythagoras in south Iraq/Iran (Susa to be precise). You will not find anything mentioned after that. Now I strongly doubt if there ever was a real need for measurement of angles in that part of the world. They had cities but then you can have that kinds of cities without need for Pythagoras theorem. You will need a ritualistic & tradition minded people to insist on measurement of angles. But that means Susa and India should have something to do with each other, which is not mentioned in the most obvious net searches. But on deeper net searches you will find the following.
Statement of Pythagoras' theorem (attributed to Pythagoras, 5th Century B.C.) already occurs in the Susa tablet ( 1600 B.C.)
Susa was a slam bang Elamite city (El Kapital). Elamites are polytheistic republicans. Elamites find mention in histories or Greeks, Assyrians, Persians. Seems like even Puranic references to it too. But this seems out of place no? Obviously considering the presentation of the history as several silos that can easily by dealt with (as in digested / propagandized) separately. But the truth is any Indian sitting in Elam (supposedly black Iran) or Iran (supposedly white Iran) would have felt entirely at home, exactly like in he would have felt in any other part of India till the injection of the new culture of ‘Master and slave’ in the Elam and Iranic cultures. In fact to de-personalise the scenario the situation of Elam was the way it was for Tibet. There could actually in essence be 3 different ways of this dissolution:
1) Like the Tibetans who have lost their country to an Imperial force. Elamites were this kind of case and just the way Tibetans got scattered all around so did the Elamities. And just as the majority of Tibetans still live within the Chinese Imperialist occupation till either of the two give up so did the Elamites; or
2) It could even be lile the Jews, who were forced out of their choosen homes in Uro-pee and now contribute to US civilization or Zion; or
3) It could even be like the Germans, who were blackmailed or kidnapped into the US and Soviet systems.
However the last two are not applicable to Elam.
An evidence of such a scenario as the (1) above is the fact that there is even a village by the name of Elam, I think in the Saharanpur Highway established/populated by Jaats. I have seen at least one claim by a Lohana Jaat that his origins are in Iran. Lohana surname could easily have been taken up in remembrance of Luhi-Ishan of the Awan dynasty. We have to this day a Jaati in north India called ‘Awana’ within Jaats that remind us of the Awan dynasty of the 2400 BC in the Elamite area. Assyria could easily by the origin of ‘Asur’ epithet. The people who broke up their neighbours with their propaganda and imperialistic tendencies. See the map below how the Assyrian were right in the middle of the Mittani and Elam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Amarnamap.png
In current times you know how denied you feel by the creation of Pakistan. Pakistan was the land on which our Rishi Munis would teach and work at. Now it is just madrassa culture. The case is the same with Iran, Elam and Tibet. These were culturally the cognates. Any Indic could easily have lived and done business in any of these cultures. But for the injection of the new idea of ‘Master and slave’ in these cultures at various times. Now these cultures are gone even though the majority actually just stayed put. This majority cannot be called the real cultural off springs of their forefathers. These are just the digested residue who just allowed themselves to be digested and never really bothered to save the salvageable part of their own history.
In fact it is for this reason that the Scythians, Parsis, Iranis, Afghans, Sri Lankan Tamils, Tibetans, Chakmas all come into India. These people just think of India as the second Home. These people are more comfortable here than in what was their original home once it got taken over by the Occupation forces. To this day the remaining population of Hindu Pakistan is essentially the so called lower caste Hindus. And they want desperately to leave their homes for India but for the Dhimmi attitude of the Indian Government.
It is in this light that I say that the job of us Indians is not limited to preserving Sanskrit. That is just the beginning. Because Sanskrit is the link language between Puratan & Nutan India that will help us free up our history. But if we just assume like you did in your response that the Deka will kill PIE or IVC independent then I am afraid we will never fight for our tomorrow.
Now I hope Acharya ji I have been successful in bringing to your attention how the history of SIVC extends far beyond and how the Uropeans are the latest of the kind famously potrayed in bollywood by Prem Chopra. Both situations being linked in space and time.
But that too can change over a few generations.
