West Asia News and Discussions

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jun 2012 18:49

ShaymD ji

(1) They say even a book has a character and soul, often different from its own author. An erudite reader understands this and that is how s/he is able to learn more than an ordinary reader from the same book. It is interesting that you either do not know much about Islam or do not want to take it into consideration when interacting with and understanding an Islamic society and its overtly Islamic government. Without this awareness, you will understand hardly a minute percentage of the real message delivered by your insiders and worse might mis-interpret the message completely, ending up in the wrong jungle. Without a sufficient and proper understanding of Islam, you will hardly become a 3rd rate DDM reporter like some people who have special corners on this forum. They do not believe/understand in certain aspects of Bharatiyata (Indianness) and misunderstand that access to some military installations and photographs is what it requires to be a defense journalist. Just a friendly advise, you can take it or leave it.

(2) From the point above comes your misunderstanding of the incident in Qatar. A Qatari national NOT wearing a revealing dress represents their culture. A Qatari society foreboding a foreign national for wearing a shorts (which is that foreign nationals' normal culture) stems from their Islamic faith. A Qatari police official arresting said foreign national implies the state/Rashtra's forceful implementation of Islamism (not their culture). There is a ton of difference between these three aspects, ask your insiders. Without state/Rashtra support no religion can achieve the say that Islam has in that area. You may give 786 reasons, why they do it. But the fact remains that the said ruling system believes in and wants to use Islam as the prevailing faith in their subject countries and societies irrespective of that society's interest/will/preference.

Do you believe in any religion and understand it? Do you know Hinduism to understand Bharat's interests and its internal and external policy? Do you know the fact that in spite of overt Hindu bashing and constitutional secularism and socialism India heart still beats for Hinduism? Isn't it irony that majority of Indian Govt policies revolve around Hinduism - be it related to ~50% reservations to Hindu BC/SC/STs, Govt's handling of Hindu temples and properties, appeasement of religious minorities, religious subsidies and what not? Yes they are trying to undo hinduism but in the process they are revolving around that very structure but in -ve way? This is the power of religion in society, good or bad.

The famous Turkey did exactly what India is doing now. State sponsored policies against anything overtly Islamic. What happened in the end?

(3) Israel. If you read the map of 1947 markings of Israeli and Palestinian areas and current Gaza-strip and west-bank locations, I really do not understand how any individual with more than donkey level IQ (due apologies to the donkey) can think this is sustainable. Perhaps they didn't learn from East/West Pakistan story. Perhaps that is what they want. If this propaganda image to be believed aren't Israelis winning? After 20-30 years there exists no Palestinians. Perhaps Israel is following the Islamist strategy in Kashmir Valley, in terms of how they got rid of Kashmiri Pandits.

Coming to Israeli fears of Iranian bomb, how is it different from a Paki-Sunni bomb, if that exists in the first place. Are you implying that the sunni-block doesn't support Palestinian cause any more OR stopped believing in and supporting Palestinian terrorism as a foreign policy tool? How does that fit in to your Islamic extremism is a tool before and during war?

If you are saying that whatever Israel did convinced GCC that their strategic tool (Islamic extremism) is useless against Israel then what can India learn from that? After all we are facing a Sunni exported terrorism under nuke umbrella on our own borders.

W.r.t Iran What do your insiders say about Iranian strategy? Do they really think they can hurt Israel, another nuclear power, by giving Hezbollah a nuke cover?

(4) Indian Interests - This is my primary objective. What do your insiders say about the mixing of their political strategy of using Islamic extremism as pressure tactic with their other interactions with India? What is the mix per your observation (for example 5:95%) OR is it non-existing? What about their indirect contributions to Pakistani terrorism? Do you express this point of view in your interactions? For example by saying no matter what you guys do, your $5B support for Pakistan affects 0.5% of GDP growth amounting to $17B, so you must prepare to pay up the difference to India or reduce your support to Pakistan, or something like that?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Jun 2012 18:59

Lilo wrote:^^ Sankuji , can i know your opinion too ?

Lilo-ji, thanks for asking. Am still thinking about it. Don't have an opinion yet. Could possibly be related to domestic compulsions of UPA as well. But frankly a little premature for me to make a statement about it.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Jun 2012 21:02

Sanku wrote:Why did Saudi's help India with 26/11 handler? Serious question? B-ji others? (ShyamD-ji, I already know your answer and do not agree so if you wish to reply do keep it in mind)

They need to keep India neutral at least if not jumping entirely on to their side. But more interestingly, a 26/11 "handler" in Indian hands at this stage is a political help to the ruling setup while it is seen as somewhat struggling in political and financial arenas. It only points to regime based political understandings that have crystallized. The Saudis will not do something that will destabilize the UPA, or reduce its chances of returning to power - because the longer term interests, which in Saudi case combines both theological as well as financial interests - will be best served by a UPA type gov. In fact they may actually help out, and perhaps already are.

On the other hand, we don;t yet know what the "handler" yields : he might sing about saffron links in the Indian army, who handled the handlers. For this he may not even need the Pragya treatment if he has been coached well.

Not much will be extracted from this guy - not to the tune that it shows up any real, "concrete", and "actionable" intel or proof on Pakistani complicity or role. Its more a sop to the public, and more aimed at Maharashtra domestic voters.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jun 2012 21:10

RamaY< one has to look at current Middile East thru three prisms or lenses: Persian - rest, Shia-Sunni and Islam vs rest.

Currrent relations between Arab states and Iran are through the first two prisms.
Arab, Iran relations vs Israel are through third prism.

Then you have geo-politics and historical dominance baggage coloring the prespective.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Jun 2012 21:37

Johann,

It has got to be something more than Arab opinion. Syria has other neighbors. Jordan for instance has not allowed weapons transfers through its territory. Neither has the loose Iraqi grouping. Why has Trukey turned so pro-active in helping at a time when Arabs themselves are reluctant to do so.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Jun 2012 21:45

brihaspati wrote: Its more a sop to the public, and more aimed at Maharashtra domestic voters.

I thought as much myself, as you have no doubt seen in my reference above. Am glad to know I am not the only one thinking like that.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 26 Jun 2012 22:36

RamaY ji

1. Thanks. I think I have a decent understanding of the subject and whether something is deception or not - but I don't claim to have an expert knowledge of the entire topic of Islam - do you? If yes, let me know which Islamic scholar you have picked up your knowledge from.
My decision not to debate Islam with you is because I really can't be bothered at this moment in time as there are more pressing matters to discuss. Time not well spent

2. I find it interesting that a lot of people keep harping on about my sources for every trivial matter... What's up with that? Feels like a lot of hate and dislike of me making a contribution on current affairs in west Asia and India. Only thing I've received is a lot of hate. Happy to stop posting if people are unhappy with it.
I've told you alrEady that religion isn't a major consideration when they make a political decision, nothing more to add. You are mixing up culture and how they choose to live their lives into strategic decisions such as who to build relations with and what not. I told you how they see themselves - barely survive in a hostile environment

3. I already told you they will use the extremists against Israel. But, they also have the ability to pull them away. Of course the Sunni bomb is a threat and the Israelis did try and prevent it
But, what does it achieve for Israel? Nothing because Israel has the biggest military advantage in the middle east and as long as that exists GCC does not view war as a likelihood or a solution to the problems.

use of terror is a waste of time they have tried for 50 years. As for India - when we were hit in Indian embassy attack - we doubled our commitment in afghanistan. We are saying their tactic won't work.
Terror as a tactic against India won't work nor will it work against Israel - as was shown in the attack in Jerusalem by the Syrians to create a conflagration between them.

As for hezbollah - would Israel ring up hands and say I don't care?

(4) Things change - interests are aligned today, this governs relations between all parties. Morals don't exist in international politics. There are always areas where nations cooperate and areas where they have differences, but they try and get the best out of each other where they have an agreement. This is how relations have been for a long time. But of course things may change in the future for the better or worse. We prepare for worst case scenario always.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 26 Jun 2012 22:40

shyamd wrote:Feels like a lot of hate and dislike of me making a contribution on current affairs in west Asia and India. Only thing I've received is a lot of hate. Happy to stop posting if people are unhappy with it.

LOL shyamd ji, melodrama? Many of us look fwd to your posts!

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 26 Jun 2012 22:46

^^ thanks. But I know a lot of people on the forum resent it.
Lilo ji, just saw your post - its not true - bomb doesn't guarantee regime can survive - see soviets.
It removes or reduces chances of big wars perhaps.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 26 Jun 2012 22:58

Carl wrote:@Shyamd.. Many of us look fwd to your posts!

^^ +1 West asia thread has been interesting because of Shyamd ji's posts.
And my thinking is that in brf , one shouldn't begrudge the resenters - they are that way only because they are too strongly attached to "their ideas".
Best to think light of their resentments while giving out your views continuosly.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jun 2012 22:59

Well we can learn to critique the content of the post rather than the poster for starters.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jun 2012 23:00

ShyamD ji

Pls do not take things personally. People call me Yindu-funda-mentalist and fascist and genocider and what not and I am all fine posting away...

You are our window to your sources. We hope that you use our questions/sarcasms as tools to nudge your sources so they start understand Indian Interests (not some RamaY day dreams).

(2) I will say one thing on Islamism of GCC and will stop it. I have no problem with them covering up their wimmen and goats/camels or cutting hands or going on soosai orgys. In fact I love that aspect in them. Let them live how they want. I am talking about their "State" religions and "State sponsored" religion and "State sponsored" religious extremism and "State sponsored" terrorism in their enemy camps. There is much difference and I hope you see it. I also wonder if it is YOU who see only "secular" aspects of your surroundings or it is your sources that are truly secular in their outlook.

(4) If Israel has biggest military advantage then why are they worried about Iran, a small fly that is reeling under sanctions? You also said, earlier, that GCC has the worlds nth best air farse, so why are they so worried about Iran's capabilities, especially given their sunni-munna bum?

Or all the drama is it to keep the oil prices artificially high until the west recoups from their own fkups?

(4) I am not moral by any standard (if you want I can send you the board warnings I have received). I want Bharat to brutally suppress adharmic regions and bring all these regions under its direct control and bring their populations back into its dharmic fold. With that clear objective I see your projection of GCC morals (soft-islam in your opinion) as nothing but a virus that needs to be cured for everyone's benefit.

Added Later: Ramanaji - didnt see your post... will delete my post if you want. I think as the medium of communication, ShyamDji's perspectives are equally important in the discussion.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 26 Jun 2012 23:02

OT shyamd, as someone who has clashed with you in debate, allow me to tip my hat to you for your knowledgeability, information, and patience, civility and intelligence in debate.

It is worth reminding ourselves from time to time that we are on the same side, and our strength is in taking different perspectives on board and relentlessly applying our intellects. At the end of the day, this is why India will prevail. shyamd, if you sense rancor, try and take it lightly, forgive it if possible, it is just the intensity of passion for the motherland.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 26 Jun 2012 23:13

Can we get a little deeper insight into what is the problem with the Iranians? I mean, they could pursue nukes without necessarily throwing in the crazy talk about wiping out Israel, it seems to me. Especially since they don't even admit that they are pursuing nukes. They are not pakistupid people, so what is going on with them? Is it some kind of unavoidable Islamic meme that addles their collective brain or is there a rationale to it, albeit twisted?

Contrast with Chinese who will do the most aggressive and threatening things, all the time chanting, "peaceful rise."

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Jun 2012 23:21

KLNMurthy wrote:Can we get a little deeper insight into what is the problem with the Iranians? I mean, they could pursue nukes without necessarily throwing in the crazy talk about wiping out Israel, it seems to me. Especially since they don't even admit that they are pursuing nukes. They are not pakistupid people, so what is going on with them?

It's a bit too late for them now. The US and Israel are not going to get off their backs even if Ahmadinejad converts to Judaism tomorrow. There are other issues at play. The americans are worried about the Arabs following suit if Iran tests a nuke. The pakis will probably sell them nukes off the shelf in return for oil or money.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jun 2012 23:23

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 26 Jun 2012 23:45

Theo_Fidel wrote:Johann,

It has got to be something more than Arab opinion. Syria has other neighbors. Jordan for instance has not allowed weapons transfers through its territory. Neither has the loose Iraqi grouping. Why has Trukey turned so pro-active in helping at a time when Arabs themselves are reluctant to do so.

Thats not entirely true. Jordan is just keeping its head low officially. They are backing the operations in anbar and are giving support from their borders. US is preparing for the downfall of Asad from Jordan - particularly the CIA

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Jun 2012 00:06

Carl wrote:
shyamd wrote:Feels like a lot of hate and dislike of me making a contribution on current affairs in west Asia and India. Only thing I've received is a lot of hate. Happy to stop posting if people are unhappy with it.
LOL shyamd ji, melodrama? Many of us look fwd to your posts!

ShyamD-ji -- please stay around so that we can continue learning from your sources about their thought process (through you) -- we also do not wish to lose a chance to scowl at them either. Unfortunately that ends up going through you too.

Hang around. Debate is good.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 27 Jun 2012 00:12

Thanks Lilo ji, KLNM et al. I am happy to debate without making things personal and name calling and what not. I am entitled to my opinion and so are you. I cant be bothered to add a disclaimer for every statement that my source makes. Its the way they see things - dont mistake it to be mine <--- here lies the problem.

----------

RamaY wrote:ShyamD ji

Pls do not take things personally. People call me Yindu-funda-mentalist and fascist and genocider and what not and I am all fine posting away...

I don't at all, but its very irritating when people say you are regime lacky, receiving money from xyz nation haha! And please, I don't want to indulge in name calling or anything of that sort, what does that say about us and our etiquette?

You are our window to your sources. We hope that you use our questions/sarcasms as tools to nudge your sources so they start understand Indian Interests (not some RamaY day dreams).

I can't lecture a powerful/knowledgable person - people don't like it. I can only listen and politely suggest.

(2) I will say one thing on Islamism of GCC and will stop it. I have no problem with them covering up their wimmen and goats/camels or cutting hands or going on soosai orgys. In fact I love that aspect in them. Let them live how they want. I am talking about their "State" religions and "State sponsored" religion and "State sponsored" religious extremism and "State sponsored" terrorism in their enemy camps. There is much difference and I hope you see it. I also wonder if it is YOU who see only "secular" aspects of your surroundings or it is your sources that are truly secular in their outlook.

I dislike their use of this ideology and tactic as at the end of the day they need to find a punchbag - that punchbag can be themselves as history tells us! I am not defending it at all! Only a weak state uses terror and such tactics - which they think of themselves as!

(4) If Israel has biggest military advantage then why are they worried about Iran, a small fly that is reeling under sanctions? You also said, earlier, that GCC has the worlds nth best air farse, so why are they so worried about Iran's capabilities, especially given their sunni-munna bum?

They are worried about Iran because they don't want to go to war (who does?! especially with a country with nukes) as every war they fight means taking risks and they have a small population - so every war they fight could be their last!

GCC - worried because it means they will get surrounded by Iran and swallowed up which is what was slowly happening for the last 15 years. So they are breaking out and stopping the "crescent" in the region. And war is not bieng used by GCC even though they can - because it strengthens the iranian regime and no one wants that - they are happy to wait it out. But nuclear is a red line because Iran could meddle easily and GCC won't be able to do much about it. Not only that GCC have a small population - Iran has bodies and they can afford to take casualties.

(4) I am not moral by any standard (if you want I can send you the board warnings I have received). I want Bharat to brutally suppress adharmic regions and bring all these regions under its direct control and bring their populations back into its dharmic fold. With that clear objective I see your projection of GCC morals (soft-islam in your opinion) as nothing but a virus that needs to be cured for everyone's benefit.

GCC morals? They have no morals and no one else does either! Only Ombaba these days sounds like he is using a bit of morals. Morals is just a tool to keep public opinion happy! Like this thing in Syria now - they are selling it to their people as - oh we are helping our Syrian birathers, come give us money for charity and humanitarian aid! Not really - They are defending their geopolitical interests with Syrian blood!

I say to you, what I said to Sanku - we need people like you in our national system - be it military, police, MEA and intel agencies!! Come join us!!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 27 Jun 2012 00:17

>> Its the way they see things - dont mistake it to be mine <--- here lies the problem.

Then why do *you* provide justifications/explanations for them? If you defend their views, why shouldn't anyone assume that you agree with them?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2012 00:22

He is giving insight into his interlocutors thinking. Its not defending them.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 27 Jun 2012 00:29

shyamd wrote: I cant be bothered to add a disclaimer for every statement that my source makes.

Given the statement shown below, maybe you should add a disclaimer when you are "giving insights into your interlocutors thinking". I have not been able to understand the boundaries between "their" and "your" views.

ramana wrote:He is giving insight into his interlocutors thinking. Its not defending them.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 27 Jun 2012 01:04

Ansari arrest outcome of 7-year India-Saudi intel embrace

THE prize catch of Syed Zabiuddin Ansari, suspected to be a key player in orchestrating the 26/11 Mumbai terror attack, is the result of a covert seven-year Indian effort to appease Saudi Arabia, including an exclusive arrangement to allow Riyadh to set up a “listening post” here comprising agents from its internal intelligence agency.

In return, Saudi Arabia agreed to cooperate and send back Indian fugitives, but made it clear that it would not apprehend Pakistani nationals wanted in Indian terror cases. In fact, one of the pre-conditions for Saudi Arabia to be able to deport any terror suspect to India was that the suspect’s Indian nationality must be proven first.

As a result, Indian agencies keep a close watch on Indian terror suspects moving in and out of Saudi Arabia and activate channels whenever a suspect shows up on their radar. It is learnt that lists are regularly shared with Saudi intelligence to ensure better results. The intelligence cooperation has provided India a credible channel to prompt Saudi officials to act on any tip-off, sources said.

Despite such a system being in place, there are regular setbacks. While India could nab Ansari this time, officials rue the fact that about a year ago two known terrorists managed to flee back to Pakistan because Saudi Arabian authorities stonewalled Indian requests to seize them. At that time, sources said, Pakistani intelligence managed to leverage its considerable influence in the Saudi intelligence setup to beat the Indians.

A senior official familiar with the Saudi files said the success rate is about “one in every four”, although present results are “encouraging”.

The bilateral arrangement also allowed the Intelligence Bureau to station its officials in Riyadh but that has not materialised in reality so far due to inter-agency turf battles and also visa issues with Saudi Arabia. This has meant that India is represented only by the RAW in Riyadh to play the “cat-and-mouse game” with other agencies operating in Saudi Arabia, including a formidable Pakistani set-up.

On this occasion, Indian authorities managed to carry the day after Ansari’s identification had been confirmed. One of the reasons for this was the recent progress made on the bilateral front, especially on meeting Saudi requests on counter-terrorism cooperation after the 2009 assassination attempt on Prince Mohammed bin Nayef, the then Deputy Interior Minister.

With al Qaeda targeting the royal family, the Saudi intelligence stepped up their surveillance and presence in other countries. This added urgency to the conversation started in 2005 by the then National Security Advisor M.K. Narayanan with his Saudi counterpart, Prince Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdul Aziz Al-Saud.

From 2009, the number of quiet visits within the intelligence community of both countries increased resulting in a more solid bilateral cooperation framework which allowed Saudi intelligence to monitor activities of Islamist militant groups active in India.

Among the other influencing factors has been the United States, which has leaned on Saudi Arabia to be more responsive to India given the larger security situation in the Middle-East and the “growing threat” from Iran. Official sources, however, cautioned that none of these factors have dramatically changed the Saudi approach to Pakistan in the context of Indian interests. “At best, there is a more calibrated version of a so-called equidistant policy,” said an official.

Yemen and Oman hunt al Qaeda infiltrators

by FP Staff Jun 26, 2012

SANAA (Reuters) – Up to five al Qaeda members escaped a Yemeni prison on Tuesday as Omani and Yemeni security forces hunted for several other militants fleeing a military offensive in southern Yemen who crossed into Oman, Yemeni security sources said.

The infiltration into Oman, which sits on one side of the Strait of Hormuz, a conduit for one third of the world’s seaborne oil exports, fuelled fears that Islamist militants may try to set up a base in a region of strategic importance for the United States.

“A limited number of al Qaeda elements managed to cross the border line to Oman in recent days,” the Yemeni source told Reuters. “Both sides are coordinating at the level of the border guards and the intelligence service to pursue and capture them.”

An Omani foreign ministry official, Badr bin Hamad al-Busaidi, told the newspaper “Oman” that his country was hunting infiltrators from Yemen, but he said no arrests had been made.

The small oil and gas exporter is an ally of the United States and Britain.

Separately, in the northern Yemeni province of Hodeidah, at least 23 inmates, including a number of al Qaeda operatives, fled prison, a security official told Reuters.

“They dug a tunnel from their cell leading to a nearby grave yard,” the official, who asked not to be named, said. Saba state news agency said five militants had fled the prison.

Saudi Arabia fought a militant insurgency from 2003 to 2006 in which al Qaeda members killed dozens of people in attacks on foreign workers and on government facilities.

Many of the militants fled the Saudi crackdown and regrouped to set up a base in Yemen.

Ansar al Sharia, an offshoot of al Qaeda, last year exploited political turmoil to capture several cities in southern Yemen, before being driven out by government forces this month who now appear to have the rebels on the run.

Yemeni officials have said some militants have fled towards a province bordering Oman.

Last year, the sultanate was rocked by mass protests against corruption and unemployment, which appeared to have been inspired by the Arab Spring uprisings.

Those protests have now subsided, largely giving way to sporadic labour protests in the oil, health and education sectors.

(Reporting by Sami Aboudi and Mohammed Ghobari in Sanaa; Editing by Kevin Liffey and Andrew Osborn)

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 27 Jun 2012 01:06

ramana wrote:He is giving insight into his interlocutors thinking. Its not defending them.

Even defending GOI is ok; a cogent defence of policies that many of us are struggling to make head or tail of, is always useful.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 27 Jun 2012 01:15

Krishna confirms Saudi Arabia's help behind Abu Jundal's arrest

India got cooperation from Saudi Arabia in netting one of the key conspirators of 26/11 Mumbai terror attack, Sayed Zabiuddin Ansari, alias Abu Jundal alias Abu Hamza, External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna confirmed to Headlines Today on Tuesday.

Jundal was arrested from Delhiâs Indira Gandhi International Airport last week. He was traced to Saudi a year ago, but the authorities in the Middle East nation were not forthcoming as he had travelled there on a Pakistani passport.

India was in touch with Pakistan to ascertain how Jundal reached Saudi. He was nabbed after a nearly year long operation by the Indian intelligence. Some very intense bargaining and a DNA test led Saudi authorities to cooperate.

What made matters difficult for India was pressure mounted on Saudi authorities by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). New Delhi produced several documents to establish that Jundal was an Indian citizen from Beed in Maharashtra.

The tables were turned following a DNA test. Authorities in India obtained a sample from Jundal's family and sent it to Saudi and won its support.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 02430.html

So this article ties in with above article. We proved he was indian so they handed him over. Didnt realise Ministry of Interior is in Dilli to monitor islamists here.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jun 2012 01:22

Ansari arrest outcome of 7-year India-Saudi intel embrace

Assuming the relationship nurtured since 2005 (7yrs ago) I wish they, KSA, helped nabbing him prior to 11/26.

THE prize catch of Syed Zabiuddin Ansari, suspected to be a key player in orchestrating the 26/11 Mumbai terror attack, is the result of a covert seven-year Indian effort to appease Saudi Arabia, including an exclusive arrangement to allow Riyadh to set up a “listening post” here comprising agents from its internal intelligence agency.

Can someone help me understand this?
(1) What appeasement India has to give to KSA to get this access?
(2) Who allowed Riyadh to setup a listening post here, where?

After reading this news item, I am convinced with Bji's perspective...

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 27 Jun 2012 01:27

Would not be a bad idea to cultivate some non state actors for the benefit of the royal saudi degenerates.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2012 01:29

Also does one swallow herald the summer?

I think now if D-comapny rivals are allowed to make hell for them in KSA they will beg to be arrested by India and eat biryani in govt lodges sorry jails.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Jun 2012 01:34

RamaY wrote:Can someone help me understand this?
(1) What appeasement India has to give to KSA to get this access?
(2) Who allowed Riyadh to setup a listening post here, where?
After reading this news item, I am convinced with Bji's perspective...

RamYa,
Go by the history,Its the deal between INC and "them". Bharat Sarkar, Bharat mulk have no say. The day Inc gone from power, the cooperation will stop. MMS statement and the rise of certain section in Sonia Secular power circle in last 7-8 years will provide a good hint.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 27 Jun 2012 01:38

>> In return, Saudi Arabia agreed to cooperate and send back Indian fugitives, but made it clear that it would not apprehend Pakistani nationals wanted in Indian terror cases.

So much for the great cooperation.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 27 Jun 2012 02:32

Saar, they are like that onlee, the custodians of the holy fugitives will only give aam ki gutli ..take it or leave it. We must accept that mai baap gives us with grace and not push our luck asking for more lest they change their mind and make Sri Lanka/Philippines/ Bakistan the next super power instead of us

member_23626 · Post by **member_23626** » 27 Jun 2012 02:42

RamaY wrote:Ansari arrest outcome of 7-year India-Saudi intel embrace

Assuming the relationship nurtured since 2005 (7yrs ago) I wish they, KSA, helped nabbing him prior to 11/26.

THE prize catch of Syed Zabiuddin Ansari, suspected to be a key player in orchestrating the 26/11 Mumbai terror attack, is the result of a covert seven-year Indian effort to appease Saudi Arabia, including an exclusive arrangement to allow Riyadh to set up a “listening post” here comprising agents from its internal intelligence agency.
Can someone help me understand this?
(1) What appeasement India has to give to KSA to get this access?
(2) Who allowed Riyadh to setup a listening post here, where?

After reading this news item, I am convinced with Bji's perspective...

Notice the timeline- 7 years = Approx. time INC came to power... the muslim appeasement and anti hindu approach of INC is now becoming a little more clear... i wonder what kind of intelligence is being put in our country??

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jun 2012 02:48

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> In return, Saudi Arabia agreed to cooperate and send back Indian fugitives, but made it clear that it would not apprehend Pakistani nationals wanted in Indian terror cases.

So much for the great cooperation.

Not just that...

1. We do not know what appeasement India did to KSA before they got a opening.
2. They also allowed a "listening post" somewhere. This is to track AQ operatives against KSA regime
3. KSA would not deport any Paki national. Why specific mention of Pakis? Why not just say non-Indians? So they DO KNOW that KSA has been used by Pakis to hurt Indian Interests

4. India has to prove the suspect's Indian nationality. What if Pakis produce a Paki passport and provide details, as soon as India ear marks a suspect?

Whatever cooperation KSA was giving, it started only after 2009 (after assassination attempt on Prince Mohammed bin Nayef) and that when United States, which has leaned on Saudi Arabia, {to avoid pressure on David Heady matter?} and Just a year ago two known terrorists managed to flee back to Pakistan because Saudi Arabian authorities stonewalled Indian requests to seize them

We should pull the GCC cooperation propaganda from 1yr ago posts/news items.

Even with all this, the success rate is only 25%. We are told that this is strategic cooperation, alliance and what not

What this means -
KSA will sell only used-up suspects, that too on Paki approval (there is no 3rd way about this). All this cooperation is for INC's internal consumption only (the same way "we are told" GCC uses Islam for internal consumption)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2012 03:33

Even then it should be widely advertised that this happened with TSP cooperation by deporting the abu chidiya to KSA and onwards to India. From now on the abus want only kanadian vizas.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 27 Jun 2012 04:43

With Saudi help, India nails Pak lies

Dalip Singh and Anirban Bhaumik, New Delhi, June 26, 2012, DHNS:

Islamabad claimed falsely that Jundal was their citizen

Pakistan’s double-talk on fighting terror stands exposed with Saudi Arabia deporting 26/11 terror accused Syed Zabiuddin alias Abu Jundal.

A day after the news broke out that Jundal who was present in the Lashkar-e-Toiba-run Karachi-based control room to supervise and dictate through mobile phone the Mumbai terror strike in 2008, the Pakistani high commission here issued a statement that their government has “renewed its offer of cooperation in this domain”.

“As agreed at the highest level between Pakistan and India, terrorism is a common concern and counter-terrorism cooperation is in the mutual interest of both countries,” the statement, rarely issued at the time of a suspected terrorist arrest, by the high commission read.

This goes contrary to the dubious role Zardari government played while opposing for almost a year Jundal alias Zabiuddin Ansari’s deportation to New Delhi on the grounds that the suspected Lashkar terrorist was a Pakistani since he was travelling on a passport issued by them. Government sources said Jundal, a resident of Beed district in Maharashtra, was detained by Saudi authorities almost a year ago on an intelligence input country’s external spy agency Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) got. Armed with a dossier prepared by the RAW, the matter was taken up with the Saudi authorities in Riyadh who in turn sought the Pakistan government’s view as Jundal had become a Pakistani by then.

Jundal married a Pakistani woman in Muzaffarabad in 2009, another piece of evidence Islamabad used, during behind-the-scene hard diplomacy that followed for months, to impress that he was not an Indian but their citizen.

But, the UPA government decided to confront Pakistan with the DNA profiling of Jundal with the help of RAW and Intelligence Bureau (IB).

After taking DNA sample from him and his family, it was matched in a laboratory in the US with the help of the FBI which proved that Jundal was an Indian.

In between the cat fight to get Jundal, India also sought the help of the American government to influence Saudis to hand him over. It is learnt that the American government intervened and asked the Saudis to accede New Delhi’s request given the strong case against the suspected terrorist.

Finally, the Saudis decided to hand him over to India. A team of officials, including from the IB, went to get him to New Delhi and handed him over to the Delhi police’s special cell. New Delhi on Tuesday acknowledged the security and counter-terrorism cooperation Saudi Arabia had extended in Jundal’s episode. “Issues of this nature are rather new in the relationship between the two countries. I would like to share with you that our relationship with Saudi Arabia is expanding in a variety of ways,” official spokesperson and Joint Secretary (External Publicity), Syed Akbaruddin, told journalists.

Riyadh has been hesitant to step up its security or defence cooperation with New Delhi, primarily due to its close ties with Pakistan — the country that was blamed as the principal source of terror to India.

More terror suspects under detention in Saudi Arabia, confirm sources

Tags: 26/11 terrorists | Abu Hamza | terrorists | Saudi Arabia

After acknowledging the arrest of suspected Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) terrorist Sayed Zabiuddin Ansari alias Abu Jundal alias Abu Hamza , government sources on Tuesday also confirmed reports of more terror operatives' detention in Saudi Arabia.

Suspected Indian Mujahideen (IM) operative Fasih Mohammad was one of those detained in Saudi, sources said. He is known to have been with Jundal for last 45 days in the oil-rich Middle East nation.

However, Fasih's family has claimed that he was being illegally detained by the Saudi authorities.

Sources told Headlines Today that Saudi Arabia has now emerged as the new refuge and platform for Indian terror modules. The suspected IM operatives get detailed briefing from their mentors about their missions while staying in Saudi Arabia.

According to sources, Haj and Umrah pilgrimage is used as the excuse to take IM undercover agents from India to Saudi. They are then introduced to Pakistani agents to plot terror attacks against India.

The modus operandi allows Pakistan to brief IM agents without them travelling to the neighbouring country. IM agents then return to India without Pak visa on their passports to avoid suspicion.

Earlier in the day Krishna confirmed that Jundal, a key player in the 26/11 Mumbai terror operation, was arrested with the help of Saudi authorities. He was arrested from Delhi airport on June 21 after India gave crucial evidence against him.

Read more at:

There are now many versions of this story doing the rounds - one saying US, Praveen Swami says US played diplomatic role and IB chief was dealing with head of KSA intel GIP and not Ministry of Interior - then another saying it is RAW that did the talking... One is saying Zabiuddin was confirmed as Indian in Aurangabad 2006 case and passed onto saudi. The intel organisation run by MoI is the GSS not the GIP as Praveen Swami claims. It is GIP that leads all external operations, GSS only deal with Yemen and extremist groups and led the crackdown on AQ.
"Listening post" sounds like DDM - by that definition we have a listening post in every country where RAW/IB/MI are posted. Basically they view LeT and AQ as one so they prbably sent some Saudi here to do standard weekly "intel" exchange that we do with every intel agency.
BRaman asks if it was US who put pressure on KSA and if ISI sold him out and media has used that too as fact.

DNA test, voice sample convinced Saudi of Jundal’s nationality

Deeptimaan Tiwary, TNN | Jun 27, 2012, 03.40AM IST

6
NEW DELHI: Mumbai attacks handler and LeT operative Syed Zabiuddin Ansari alias Abu Jundal was arrested by Saudi Arabian authorities in May last year in a case of alleged forged passport. He was arrested on the insistence of the US and was in a Saudi jail ever since even as India and Pakistan fought over his citizenship and custody.

The claim was finally settled in favour of India when it provided voice samples from 26/11 intercepts that matched with those of Jundal's voice. India also sent his father's blood sample for a DNA test which proved he was the son of Maharashtra-based insurance agent Syed Zakiuddin Ansari.

Most importantly, it was the alertness of US authorities, the growing cooperation between Indian and US security agencies post-26/11 attacks and the Americans' good offices with Saudi Arabia that helped India bring Jundal home.

After ascertaining Jundal's real identity as Zabiuddin Ansari in early 2010, India had shared details with US authorities to put pressure on Pakistan to get him. However, by the end of 2010, Jundal fled to Saudi Arabia on the insistence of his bosses in LeT and the Pakistani intelligence establishment.

In 2011, US authorities intercepted some calls that revealed Jundal's presence in Saudi Arabia. Having located him, US authorities then put pressure on the Saudis and got Jundal arrested in an alleged forged passport case in May 2011.

However, the real battle was yet to begin as Saudi Arabia, having good relations with Pakistan, refused to give Jundal to India as he was living in that country as Riyasat Ali on a Pakistani passport. Meanwhile, Pakistan staked claim to Jundal as its citizen and pushed Saudi Arabia to release him. At that time, Saudi Arabia was at best inclined to allow Indian authorities limited access to Jundal. India, on the other hand, wanted his custody.

Thus started negotiations involving US, Indian and Saudi authorities. The latter demanded each contesting country to produce evidence to prove that Jundal or Riyasat was their citizen. This is when India sent several documents including charge sheets filed against Jundal in India, details of the red corner notice (RCN) in the 2006 Aurangabad arms haul case, civic certificates of his family that showed he was the son of Syed Zakiuddin Ansari from Beed in Maharashtra; and finally, the voice samples of Jundal in the 26/11 attacks intercepts where he is heard directing terrorists in Nariman House in an unmistakable Indian accent.

The last one tilted the balance in favour of India as Jundal's voice matched that of the voice of the handler. To further bolster this evidence, about nine months ago, the home department asked Maharashtra ATS to collect blood samples from Jundal's father.

A team under DIG Sukhvinder Singh with men from ATS's Aurangabad unit visited Jundal's home in Hattikhana in Beed and collected the samples. Agencies were so secretive about this operation that ATS was not even informed about the actual purpose of this exercise and was told that the samples were being collected merely to update the RCN against Jundal.

These samples were then sent to Saudi Arabai where a DNA test confirmed parentage. "To counter all this evidence, all Pakistan had was a fake passport. Their case fell through and Saudis agreed to hand over Jundal.

--------------------------

Kanishka · Post by **Kanishka** » 27 Jun 2012 06:31

Arab Spring has produced new generation of British terrorists, warns MI5 chief

LONDON: The Arab Spring has spawned a new generation of British-born terrorists after al-Qaeda moved into unstable countries and began training potential bombers for possible attacks on Britain, the head of MI5 has warned.

Jonathan Evans said the terrorist network had taken advantage of the revolutions that began last year to spread its influence and create new bases for planning attacks.

British jihadis were known to be receiving training in countries such as Libya and Egypt, mirroring what has happened in the Yemen and Somalia, he claimed.

They could return to attack Britain in what was a ''new and worrying development'', he said.

Mr Evans, the director-general of MI5, warned of the emerging threats in a rare speech, his first in almost two years. He also said:

The intelligence services and police were preparing for potential threats from extremists and ''lone wolf'' terrorists should the eurozone collapse.

Cyber attacks were causing ''real world damage'', with one British company suffering estimated losses of £800 million after its computers were hacked.

There was a renewed threat of state-sponsored terrorism from Iran and associates such as Hezbollah.

It would be ''extraordinary and self-defeating'' if government proposals to give the security services greater powers to snoop on emails and phone calls were blocked.

The popular revolts in Arab nations won widespread acclaim, with Western leaders welcoming the demise of Hosni Mubarak's rule in Egypt and Muammar Gaddafi's regime in Libya, among others.

Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, described events at the time as ''incredibly exciting''. But in the inaugural Lord Mayor's Annual Defence and Security Lecture in London on Monday, Mr Evans warned that a new terrorist threat had emerged from an ''Arab world in radical transition''.

He said while events offered hope in the long term, there was a ''more immediate problem'' as al-Qaeda returned home.

Figures published last year suggested that more than 100 Britons had received training from terrorist groups in Somalia. It is feared that many are now attending al-Qaeda camps in Yemen, Egypt and Libya.

Mr Evans offered some reassurance by saying that the tactics and methods of the security services had improved over the years. ''You could say that we are near to reaching a form of stalemate - they haven't stopped trying but we have got better at stopping them.''

State-sponsored terrorism, coupled with Iran's nuclear intentions, raised the chilling prospect of a dirty bomb attack, he said.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jun 2012 07:09

Wow! A dumb non-IITian like moi could figure this out, but our wannabe noble laureate doesn't see this and went thru DNA & voice proofs, JK & Siachen nonsense, FBI & GOTUS and even Pakis to get ONE INDIAN born suspect in 11/26 case.

And we want to call this Indo-Herp strategic alliance in return for suspending 10% of our oil imports from Iran (what is the oil price change between Persian and Arap oil)?

Dal me something very very Kaala hain.

Why would UPA goes thru this much drama to get one Indian born suspect when they have the smoking gun Kasab in their house eating Pizza and honking the Mumbai whores?

This suspect is going to be 400% saffron terrorist onlee. His DNA will match the Aryan DNA.

Jai ho Sekkulah India.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 27 Jun 2012 09:07

the fact that we have these lengthy investigations after each and every attack itself is an indicator of where resources are thrown. the fact that even years after the event, we are still left to write pages of posts collecting news articles about DNA tests, and "intel cooperation" of mythical proportions, and the assorted stuff is kind of what's wrong with our outlook in this fight. seriously, after nearly 4 years, we are still discussing the finer points of DNA results somehow "nailing" Pak. speak of impotency at its height. even the impotent feels desire, but we are probably on a lower rung than that too...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Jun 2012 12:28

devesh wrote:even the impotent feels desire, but we are probably on a lower rung than that too...

Could not agree more. Pathetic would be a mild word for the current situation.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jun 2012 13:28

They would simply drag the 26/11 case long enough that most will forget it has ever happened or god forbid some new terrorist attack may place in India which will put the 26/11 case in backburner.

After all how many still pursue the 93 mumbai blast case or the many train blast that happened after that ....probably other than the long dragging court cases its out of most peoples and medias mind ....except the people who lost their dear ones suffer in silence.