Indian Roads Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jun 2012 14:26

fortunately the much needed Delhi-Agra yamuna expway which should have opened months ago might open in july per noises in the forest...
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/akhil ... th/960891/

UP needs two parallel expways one north of ganga and one south of ganga, with periodic spur connections at major points.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Jun 2012 19:40

^^^ 1+
Yes, ignore the negativist jacka$$es. Just pick ourselves up and try again and again. The Ganga expressway will be built.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Jun 2012 23:36

Theo_Fidel wrote:^^^ 1+
Yes, ignore the negativist jacka$$es. Just pick ourselves up and try again and again. The Ganga expressway will be built.

Well the people who stalled it's construction in the first place are now in power.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 26 Jun 2012 23:38

I don't agree with the equal-equal with Indian drivers and others. Yes, people from all countries love talking about their bad drivers -- you know how badly those cowboys in Texas drive, Californians always cut you off on the freeway, and don't get me started on those retirees down in Florida -- but those things are relative. The scale and consistency of bad driving in India is worse than anywhere else I've seen it.

I've been to poor places (although richer than India) like Thailand and Jamaica, and I haven't seen the thoughtlessness and disregard for other drivers that you come to expect here. Our driver on a full day tour in Thailand spent the whole day without once honking, tailgating, flashing his lights at someone, or trying to overtake dangerously. Here he'd do all of that within the first five minutes -- twice.

Of course a lot of this has to do with education (both driver education as well as general education -- most truck and cab drivers are semi-illiterate), incomes and road infrastructure.

Knowing the reason for the problem doesn't take away from the fact that it is a serious problem, though -- you are putting your life and that of your loved ones at almost unacceptable risk every time you drive on a high speed road in India. It truly is much worse here than almost anywhere else, barring (I'm assuming) Africa.

member_23626 · Post by **member_23626** » 27 Jun 2012 00:08

^^

yawn same old R&D and dhobi ghatisation of us boor uneducated SDREs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way I am a frequent visitor/lurker to SSCI (Skyscrapercity India), a lot of infra project especially roads,highways,tunnels etc. are coming up, many have already been completed... it seems as if suddenly some babu in deep sleep was visited by his/her crying ancestors for not doing anything about infra.... Mumbai itself has some 90-100 towers in planned phase... some 40% are already in construction which will be completed by 2015-2020 timeframe so maybe we should wait and watch

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 27 Jun 2012 00:10

Since we're making statements based on personal anecdotes here, in my case the only time I (and a few other locals) really came close to being hit by a car was by one of those red cabs pulling into a dropoff bay at high speed in TFTA Hong Kong (Kowloon though, not Island), which led to the driver being yelled at in very loud Cantonese...

Most of SE Asia *does* have much better roads than India, especially urban road infrastructure, and that was my point - the quality of the roads and the nature of the vehicles matters. Places like Indonesia or Philippines, which have incomes comparable to India (though the former has arguably better roads) have similar traffic issues as India does.

Comparing India to small countries with 3-4x the per capita incomes doesn't really amount to much of a meaningful comparison. While intercity road infrastructure has improved significantly in India in the past decade, intracity roads (except for cases like Delhi) have not kept pace with the huge increase in cars and two-wheelers.

Part of the reason is something we discussed in the economy thread - there's is no fiscal autonomy and decision making power at the city level in our system - the lowest authoritative level of power devolution is state level. Why would a state-level government spend on city roads instead of intercity connectivity that enhances their electoral chances ? Urban infrastructure is very poorly funded in India despite cities generating the revenues, and that includes the roads.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 27 Jun 2012 01:03

If you haven't come close to being hit by a car in India, then you are either very fortunate or have not driven much in India. More likely, your memories of India have a positive gloss from not actually living there.

Yes, yes, I understand all those reasons why things in India are worse -- my point is that the conditions exist, and they affect your safety *now* (or the next time you are there).

Nobody is claiming that the reasons behind the situation are a mystery -- we could write pages about it, and do -- but the situation exists, and it is definitely not equal-equal with that in other countries.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 27 Jun 2012 01:23

Abhijeet, I've lived in India for over two decades and am an annual visitor to Kerala, which has among the craziest drivers around (admittedly at least one within my own extended family too). And yes, I drive and take the bus around there too when I visit, both around the city and between cities. There's no need to get personal with an RI vs NRI debate here; I merely quoted my own anecdote since you and others have provided their own. We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not it's worse in India than other comparable places in Asia or elsewhere.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Jun 2012 15:46

Anther case of MTC driver pushing the limits?

Over 30 injured as bus falls off flyover in Chennai

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jun 2012 17:37

well generally speaking being run over by a car or any vehicle is more when people density is more on the roads. quite logical to think at that. by the nature of traffic, it is difficult to imagine speeding in crowded places.. but what is appalling is the fact that India, though a born walking nation, advent of vehicles has given more respect to the man on wheels than man on foot. This may not be the case on incidents that cause the man on foot to be taken to haspataal in few minutes or he dies. If there is no one to look around, it would be a sure case of hit and run - 100% guaranteed. /sorry.. my experiences, and I was an extreme user of Indian roads - cycling 20kms per day min during school days itself.

respect to traffic, ordained by laws, etc.. awareness are increasing as education level increases.. but, in general speak, people disregard who walk on the road, and at the same time our road infrastructure is largely used by walkers and carts, rather motorized wheels on road. We have not improved our road structures to respect walkers by building infrastructure for wheels separately or in an augmented way.

Our requirements are unique, and no single soul in the billion really cares, what is the real problem and how to do it. common sense.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jun 2012 18:48

no road or structure can be safe for such driving
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... epage=true

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Jun 2012 19:57

Our tax base can not support good design and engineering at the moment. Maybe as we get richer our tax base will have the money to slowly fix these problems.

BTW the ANNA flyover is a bad bad obsolete design. I suspect that is the south bound loop down to Cathedral road which is a well known death trap. I know of at least 3 deaths on that loop. IMHO even the new Kathipara flyover is a horrible horrible design guaranteed to cause deaths and traffic mayhem but cheap....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jun 2012 20:19

We will never get richer for usability. We want something, we need to work towards it.

That is the only way to get richer.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Jun 2012 20:22

I dunno. IME you want something you pay cash for it....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jun 2012 20:55

^that anna crash was due to cell phone use by the driver.

well it did highlight on the quality of life from the quality of our infrastructure and especially the public transport bus qualities [dabbas].

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Jun 2012 02:03

1. It is too easy to get a driver's license in India.

2. Children are not taught about road or safety rules in school, this is a compulsory subject in USA High schools along with fire drills.

3. Indian drivers think that learning about gears and clutches is what driving is all about. i.e. once I know that I can steer and move forward a vehicle I am a DRIVER. TOTALLY WRONG approach!! Driver needs to know and follow lot more about things like

a. letting pedestrians cross the road.
b. driving without beam lights.
c. fixed brake and tail lights (too many trucks, tractors do not have brake lights in India)
d. unnecessary overtaking.
e. overloading.
f. seat belts.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 29 Jun 2012 12:31

SBajwa wrote:c. fixed brake and tail lights (too many trucks, tractors do not have brake lights in India)

This just struck my mind yesterday. The trailers (especially fixed onto tractors) do NOT have any provision for a brake light. It is not even a case of bad-wiring or fused bulbs. There is no provision at all !! And in a dark night it is very difficult to know that you have this slow moving vehicle ahead of you, with 99% chances that an illiterate or semi-literate person is at the wheels

. I think this also is a "It only happens in India" kind of a thing.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Jun 2012 14:27

Yesterday while driving in Egmore- Pantheon road Chennai, I arrived a few minutes after a major accident, Reason overtaking in a 2 lane bridge- and best part when I arrived after the accident traffic was queing up in lineon the bridge, so many bozzos when on the wrong side and tried to cut back in line.

I really can't figure it out why isit so difficult to figure out that driving on wrong side on a bridge is not worth saving 20 seconds of time??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2012 16:10

tractors dont have it, but the 20ft and 40ft container truck trailers do I think...there is usually a thick coil of telephone type wire going from the cab to the trailer ..... its another matter if the driver checks it periodically for proper working.

in many trucks the brake lights are broken...and nobody seems to care about fixing it...the police also dont seem to care.

this is even common in the older city buses.

vivek_v · Post by **vivek_v** » 29 Jun 2012 17:04

SBajwa wrote:1. It is too easy to get a driver's license in India.

2. Children are not taught about road or safety rules in school, this is a compulsory subject in USA High schools along with fire drills.

3. Indian drivers think that learning about gears and clutches is what driving is all about. i.e. once I know that I can steer and move forward a vehicle I am a DRIVER. TOTALLY WRONG approach!! Driver needs to know and follow lot more about things like

a. letting pedestrians cross the road.
b. driving without beam lights.
c. fixed brake and tail lights (too many trucks, tractors do not have brake lights in India)
d. unnecessary overtaking.
e. overloading.
f. seat belts.

In India if i drive my car like what is mentioned it would take one full day just to reach office and back.

For (a) it is agreed if people cross only at pedestian crossing (or) use a over-bridge like in massaland then one can slowdown and proceed. What happens here is that everyone does kamikaze raids in the middle of a divider of a fast road and darts across. If you slow down probably you would end up hitting the guy who is crossing or be rear ended. Only option to keep the car in high beam and honk such that they don't do a kamikaze raid on your car.

For (b) most cars in India have poor throw for low beam lights. Also considering that most roads look like the face of the moon there is no option but to switch to high beam.

I agree with (c) though there is a chance that cycles and other methods of transport would use the middle of the road and would not even have reflectors let alone lights.

For (d), it is difficult to define what constitutes a "necessary overtaking" and an un-necessary overtaking. it is very relative term. If there is a empty space before you, either you take (or) one by one would try to squeeze inside the space pushing your average speeds to negatives.

For (e) blame that on the cost of fuel and the toll charges of our highways. Everyone wants the items at the lowest rates and not many would actually wonder if his cabbage truck was overloaded or not.

For (f) inside city limits where the average speed is close to one kms per hour seat beats are not really needed. They are probably more useful in highways but in most cars and vehicles it is actually very difficult to figure out where the rear seatbelt connectors are.

Anyways , my point is that when in Rome , be a Roman. Considering our road conditions, education and density this is best which can be achieved.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Jun 2012 17:07

Singha wrote:tractors dont have it, but the 20ft and 40ft container truck trailers do I think...there is usually a thick coil of telephone type wire going from the cab to the trailer ..... its another matter if the driver checks it periodically for proper working.

in many trucks the brake lights are broken...and nobody seems to care about fixing it...the police also dont seem to care.

this is even common in the older city buses.

My own damn bike has brake lights not working.

Got it changed 5 times in 2 years and manages to conk everytime . Cant believe that Suzuki makes such el-cheapo brake switches and no one even replies on their helpdesk ID. So, currently, even me without brake lights as got tired of replacing it every few months!

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 29 Jun 2012 17:56

Sachin, the Toll agitation for the NH-47 segment is in a way justified. The toll system is one of the most moronic, ass backward, stupid use of the "sauce for goose == sauce for gander" logic!!

See, you placed a toll booth right at the location where the main southward trunk from the city of Trichur joins the NH, and collect Rs 50 for one way/85 for both, for a stretch of road extending 58 kilometre southward, through a mostly urbanized region. Take a look at the map marked up:

There are roads branching off left and right for the first 10 km, and people, thanx to the economy of SRK, have cars there. They will end up paying Rs 50 to use 10KM of the highway. All those people need to go to Trichur for stuff, and end up paying toll. no wonder they riot!!

For the NHAI Babus, it is "One India, One people, One System", but what works in other states, with isolated towns and long stretches of highway, will not work here in Kerala. I gladly pay the toll at that place, because I use the entire stretch of the highway, but I totally understand the problem of someone, say from Varandarapilly.

I blame on the stoopidity by NHAI.

Right now, the people opened a bypass route for the toll. They take a U-turn before the toll, and get to the old NH. Most of the cars take that route. Good for them!!

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Jun 2012 18:40

^^^^
Am I the only one who thinks this is a cop out.

You want better roads but only want to pay for your part of it.

Something similar happens all over TN. The entire East coast road is surrounded by houses both sides and I have never heard such socialistic complaints. That too from self described 'car' owners.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 29 Jun 2012 20:02

Well you will start hearing such complaints in TN too when a great majority of local users become car drivers, right now they are just mass transportation users. My guess is car owners in TN today have income levels at multiples of what car owners in KL will have. Yes there is more socialism in KL, when TN achieves the same level of equity the complaints will follow.

Here in DC suburbs, people complain about the dulles tollway too.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 30 Jun 2012 02:46

Put a state-level cess on petrol, lube, coolant et al and be done with. At least it will increase the usage of public transport and reduce medical bills caused by fat-ass syndrome. So the more roads that are build in a particular state, the more cess they need to levy.

But then

will increase in other areas.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Jun 2012 03:21

We need both. Cess and toll. India needs the money, as it is we don't spend enough on roads. Also toll pays the private company bills. By avoiding said toll you doom your state as no private company will come again. What kinda tamasha is this and folks are being called 'smart' for doing it. If you don't like the toll, move. But that is impossible right.

Bade,

How can you say that Ayya. Chennai folk have every bit as many cars as SRK.

Esp. on the East coast (rich coast) drive. They complain plenty but don't stop or undermine the project. And how can you say TN has less social equity. Economic inequality maybe, but not social. I'll leave it at that...

vivek_v · Post by **vivek_v** » 30 Jun 2012 08:44

Theo_Fidel wrote:We need both. Cess and toll. India needs the money, as it is we don't spend enough on roads. Also toll pays the private company bills. By avoiding said toll you doom your state as no private company will come again. What kinda tamasha is this and folks are being called 'smart' for doing it. If you don't like the toll, move. But that is impossible right.

Bade,

How can you say that Ayya. Chennai folk have every bit as many cars as SRK. Esp. on the East coast (rich coast) drive. They complain plenty but don't stop or undermine the project. And how can you say TN has less social equity. Economic inequality maybe, but not social. I'll leave it at that...

In Chennai one would have seen the toll costs on OMR which costs something like Rs.19 one way and Rs.35 return. It was actually increased from Rs.15 and Rs 30 to these rates (not sure when it was increased). Considering this road is right inside City limits and almost always congested with hardly 10 to 15kms of actual distance, why would anyone want to pay toll for that road if he/she could avoid it by taking some sub roads ? Given a choice, i would avoid that road but where exactly one would move since there are hardly any other approaches into OMR, hence subroads which can bypass the Toll is probably the only option.

I am not against toll roads but there has to trade off and compromise between the toll rates and the position of the Toll roads.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 30 Jun 2012 13:03

Theo_Fidel wrote:^^^^
Am I the only one who thinks this is a cop out.

You want better roads but only want to pay for your part of it.

Something similar happens all over TN. The entire East coast road is surrounded by houses both sides and I have never heard such socialistic complaints. That too from self described 'car' owners.

Maybe you are..

I don't know about the locations of toll booths in the EC road. The only highway I have seen in TN is NH-47 and NH-7. I see very little on/off ramps to that, at more than 10km distance. The toll/km is reasonable.

The problem with the Trichur-angamaly stretch is that there are a lot of roads that merge to the highway, like one every km or so. Also, a majority of population to the east of the highway have no road access to the city other than via the highway for a few km.

Paying Rs 50 for a few km is indeed a problem. Show me a marked up map for a similar situation in TN please.

NHAI could have placed the toll booth further north, between the north and south links to the city. Then, the city access folk could avoid toll and the through users would be charged.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Jun 2012 20:08

Dileep saar,

Like people have pointed out you may visit OMR/East Coast, both toll roads, bang inside Chennai no less, at your leisure. Does not even have service lane BTW like NH47. As you yourself say all of them are going to Thrissur using the Thrissur-Angamaly highway. Whats is the problem with paying toll? Old disruptive attitude onlee.

Those who go in between pay no toll at all. This is NHAI 50 km booth policy all over India. Now you put toll booths every 10 km, traffic comes to screeching halt, pay toll 5 times and all the in-between folks pay as well. Only in SRK.

Shot yourself in foot and everyone stands around and applauds.

I'm curious to know how else this road might be paid for? Better roads are friggin expensive to build. I'm curious to know where the money is going to come from.

vivek_v · Post by **vivek_v** » 01 Jul 2012 14:37

Theo saar, The problem is not the tools per se, it is more to do with the cost of Toll which is very expensive. I mean Rs.35 in just OMR just to come to office and return is costly for a road which is bang inside city limits (or at-least the greater chennai) with no other approaches.

Also i really do not buy the argument that the Toll gates are just placed as per mathematics of 50kms radius , what i see is that the toll booths are strategically placed , for example the toll just before the new Bangalore airport, or the OMR approaches via ECR/Medavakam where if one has to go to Siruseri IT park coming via ECR still needs to pay the full toll for traveling some 4kms in the road (and the IT park is just located a few meters after the Toll booth).

Regarding paying for roads last time i bought a car , i had to pay something like 27% excise duty , on top of VAT/other stuff and in Tamilnadu i paid close to 15% as road tax (i guess in 2004 when i had bought a vehicle it was something like 12% excise duty and 5% road tax). Basically it is something like 30% of the cost of the vehicle just as "Taxes" to improve the roads and now everyday just to reach office and back , one to pay 35 rupees per day.....well it really wouldn't really fly without everyone trying to find some sub roads.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Jul 2012 19:20

Tolling a greenfield expressway or brand new bridge which did not exist before would have lesser opposition. Most of 2 lane bridges from almost 30 years ago are still tolled at Rs 10 for r/t even in KL. So it is not like people do not pay any tolls at all. The stretch of NH-47 bypass (sic) passes right through the most development happening in expanding Cochin. Tolling that part will have some amount of opposition.

Even on the stretch to Coimbatore of NH-47 I did find lot of two-wheelers not paying any toll and getting by the last time I took that stretch. Only cars and big vehicles were getting tolled as I recall. Maybe, things are different now.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Jul 2012 08:08

Theo, the problem is paying Rs 50 for <10KM usage.

I checked out the ECR toll booths on google (I apologize for not being able to come over to chennai, just to verify the tolls). I find from the TNRDC site that you pay Rs 24 at the (Uthandi plaza) till Mahabalipuram. and another Rs 35 to Puducherry. I find that there is no toll booth near Mahabalipuram, so you can go till the toll gate of Koonimedu for Rs 24. If you cross over that toll gate, you pay an extra Rs 35.

Glad to be corrected on this, BTW.

The only local people who are badly affected by the toll at Uthandi would be those who live in the sliver of land, around 1km wide and 8km long till Covelong. Even this place is sparsely populated. Further down, I see very little habitation for the next 18km till Mahabalipuram.

And you are comparing this with the Rs 50 toll at Trichur. Look for yourself!! At 2km from the toll, you have the Amballoor Jn, from where the road to Varandapappilly branches off. At 3km you have road to Mupliyam. At 10km, you have Kodakara, where the road to Kodali branches off. Please look at the Google earth imagery and see how dense that region is populated. All those people are forced to pay Rs 50 for the use of the highway.

And if you are still trying to equate the toll at ECR, then I have nothing to say, except shake my head.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Jul 2012 08:16

There are a number of alternate proposals for toll.

1. Use electronic toll on a charge per distance basis.
2. Levy a cess on fuel
3. Levy a cess on vehicle tax.
4. Levy special tax on the commercial establishments on the highway. Yes, there are plenty. Let those guys pay!!

What I tries to say was, the 50km rule is arrived at based on the habitation pattern of most of the states, yes, including TN. Since the habitation pattern of KL is drastically different (take a look at Google earth imagery), this rule is not applicable in KL. You need to derive a system that works here, rather than forcing the general rule.

It would be not unlike forcing hindi, wheat, vegetarianism etc.

BTW, Theo called Socialism. Is asking to be charged proportional to the benefit socialism? I didn't think so.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 02 Jul 2012 12:22

Dileep wrote: 1. Use electronic toll on a charge per distance basis.
2. Levy a cess on fuel
3. Levy a cess on vehicle tax.
4. Levy special tax on the commercial establishments on the highway. Yes, there are plenty. Let those guys pay!!

1. Can be done only once the automatic mechanism/RFID equipments are put in place. So this would take time.
2. If this is done, the protests would be at the state level and not at Thrissur Dt. level

.
3. Vehicle Tax would be applicable only for Kerala vehicles, right? The next whine would be that extra taxes would be levied on Kerala vehicles, but the road users would be people from other states

.
4. Th commercial establishments would not be happy here, and I expect strikes/harthals from these folks as well. The "Vyaapari..Vyavasaayi" teams would be up in arms.

I may sound really negative here. As I see for Kerala, it would be most prudent to take out an advertisement in the paper. The govt. or NHAI clearly tell the people that they will not have any four lane express high ways, any where in the state. The amount the people kept aside for Tolls can be now utilised better at the local BEVCO outlet

. They can go ahead and use the existing dual carriage way NH 47 and NH 17. Vehicle density would increase, and there is no point in organising harthals for that or start whining. Major port projects like Vallarpadam etc. will also go for a six (Tuticorin will score better here), as huge trucks etc. would find entry/exit to the port a big problem. There is only a single railway line leading to the port. But the railway lines leading to Kerala are also saturated. Forget putting a third new line, as this also requires new land to be acquired. What these socialists are really looking for is good roads, with some body else paying the money. I think it is time to call their bluff

.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 02 Jul 2012 15:12

The cost of building roads are taken care of in the initial bidding so that cost is recovered as per the agreement. It is clarified and nothing is hidden.

However the people are unaware of this and continue paying toll.

Normally, after recovering costs no more toll is collected. But if toll is collected after the specified period as per agreement it is unusual.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Jul 2012 15:18

Perungudi toll gate has been there for 5 years now....and another one in rajiv gandhi road , just 2 km down

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Jul 2012 19:07

Sachin, the NH47 bypass section with a toll would not work anywhere in the world

even in capitalist havens. I am not against tollways for inter city connectors, but I fully get what Dileep is trying to say here. The only way you can have a 4+4 lane carriageway with tolls going through the denser parts of Kerala is on stilts and completely access controlled.

I do request you to visit Hawaii where a fair comparison with KL can be done in all matters of terrain and density.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2012 19:49

If people are averse to pay tolls, then we have to ensure the infrastructure use such that there is no escape..by way of construction design. If the terrain does not allow that, then the menace can be only worked out by responsible citizens.

There is no other way to get a legal binding..without responsibility.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Jul 2012 19:52

^^ ??

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 02 Jul 2012 19:53

If people are averse to pay tolls, then we have to ensure the infrastructure use such that there is no escape..by way of construction design. If the terrain does not allow that, then the menace can be only worked out by responsible citizens.

There is no other way to get a legal binding..without responsibility.

Most people get pissed off because this toll business never ends. Even years after the road has been built, toll booths do not shut down.

In addition, the road tax while purchasing new vehicles and the high amount of tax on fuels ensures that road transport remains costly.