China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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Johann
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Johann »

Heres a very useful resource (chapters 2 & 4 are very useful as references);

China’s Defense Industry on the Path of Reform

Prepared for
The US-China Economic and Security Review Commission
October 2009
Executive Summary
Key Findings
• With some notable exceptions (missiles and space), the Chinese defense-industrial base through the 1980s and most of the 1990s uniformly suffered from chronic shortages of capital, technology, and production know-how;
• The purchases of Russian military technology in the early to mid 1990s, such as Su-27 FLANKERs, Kilo-class submarines, and Sovremenny-class destroyers, were meant to fill critical mission-related gaps in Chinese military modernization, and should therefore be seen as a scathing indictment of the failures of the PRC defense-industrial base to fulfill its long-standing promises to the People’s
Liberation Army (PLA);
• Since the reforms of 1998, the Chinese defense industries have undergone a dramatic and successful transformation, surpassing the expectations of even the most forward-leaning analyst;
• There is now significant variation across the various sectors (aviation, aerospace, ordnance, shipbuilding, defense electronics) of the Chinese defense-industrial base;
• The relative progress of an individual defense-industrial sector appears to be best explained by its relative integration into the globalized production and R&D chain, which provides access to the latest production and manufacturing technologies and know-how;
• While missiles and aerospace have always been a “pocket of excellence,” the greatest progress appears to have been made in the shipbuilding and defense electronics sectors, both of which have benefited greatly from China’s current position as a leading producer of commercial ships and information technologies;
• Those sectors that have lagged in relative terms (aviation and ordnance) have been hurt by a lack of similar spin-on benefits from partnerships between multinational corporations and domestic industry, though the defense-industrial reforms of 1998 and diffusion of innovation in the system have improved their performance;
• Integration with the global production and R&D chain has facilitated dramatic improvements in Chinese defense-industrial production and PLA modernization since the late 1990s;
• China’s emergence as the world’s IT workshop has played an important role in the PLA’s C4I revolution, particularly the elements of the C4I system that rely on COTS (commercial off-the-shelf). This C4I revolution has significantly improved the Chinese military’s operational and communications security.
CHAPTER ONE: Organizational Infrastructure and Relationships among Major Players at Government and Enterprise Levels

Summary
The structural changes and developments in each sector of China’s defense industry illustrate a broad process of consolidation and reform at both the government ministerial and defense enterprise levels. Through these changes, the leadership in Beijing aims to
build a modern military industrial base capable of competing in the world market for weapons sales and meeting the force requirements of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) as it assumes a more forward military posture.

Specifically, the reforms and consolidation process represents a new model for success built on the principle of Yujun Yumin and the concept of injecting the “Four Mechanisms” into the military industrial base. At the government level, the most significant change is the creation of the new “super ministry,” with the Ministry of Industry and Informatization (MIIT) and the elevated position of the General Armaments Department (GAD). Developments at the level of enterprises and subsidiaries manifest these strategies in expanded autonomy and competition for the enterprises and their subsidiaries, and increased opportunities for commercial business in the global market.

The following chapter will assess each sector to gauge which ones are benefiting from these structural changes and to evaluate their relative strengths and weaknesses
CHAPTER TWO: Net Assessment of China’s Defense-Industrial Sectors

The Chinese defense industry has undergone a broad-based transformation since the late 1990s. Historically, China’s defense industry has been plagued by a lack of capital, technology, and incentives. Redundant personnel, lack of R&D experts, limited knowhow and communist management practices impeded innovation and attempts to manufacture “leap-frog” technologies. The moribund nature of China’s defense industry resulted in backward weapon systems and an overreliance on foreign technologies.

After reforms began in the late 1990s, China’s defense industry started to shed this historical legacy, resulting in substantial improvement. In fact, then head of the General Armaments Department Li Jinai stated in 2003 that “there has been a marked improvement in national defense scientific research and in building weapons and equipment. The past five years has been the best period of development in the country’s history.” Reforms included shedding thousands of jobs, increasing funding, and bifurcating each defense industrial ministry into two independent enterprises to foster competition. This was followed by a directive to commercialize and reform the business practices of the defense industry to make it competitive in a market economy. Defense industrial executives now had to respond to profit and loss statements and seek new ways to make their companies profitable outside of the defense sector. Moreover, as the civilian economy, especially the electronics sector, began to improve, the defense industry was able to exploit the “spin-on” benefits of civilian technologies. Indeed, the opening of the Chinese economy to foreign investment and technology provided new opportunities, legal and illegal, to transfer technology and know-how to Chinese weapon programs.

The result of these ongoing reforms is that analysts can no longer make blanket claims about China’s defense industry across the board but instead must evaluate each sector individually. Each sector has responded in different ways to these reforms and has faced different challenges. While China’s pockets of excellence continues in the space, missile, and nuclear fields, the relative success of other sectors appears to depend greatly on the extent to which the sector is integrated into the global R&D and production chain. Those sectors that are well-integrated, such as shipbuilding, have made enormous strides. Those sectors that are not well-integrated, such as ordnance and aviation, have lagged world standards. And at least one sector, defense electronics, appears to be a hybrid, exhibiting significant improvement in capability areas that can exploit China’s emergence as the world’s information technology workshop, such as COTS systems like switches and routers, but continuing to lag in other areas, such as radiation-hardened mil-spec electronics with no commercial analog.

The New Defense-Industrial Spectrum

Traditional “Pockets of Excellence”
Nuclear weapons and missiles, including the derivative capabilities in space launch, have long been so-called “pockets of excellence” in the Chinese system, enjoying a string of programmatic successes even during the chaos and irrationality of the Mao era.
...
Globalized Defense-Industrial Sectors (“Leaders of the Pack”)
Shipbuilding
China’s shipbuilding industry is the exemplar of the globalized defense-industrial sectors, reflecting the progress possible when a sector is fully integrated into the global R&D and production chain and can take advantage of the full range of foreign technology and know-how.

Unglobalized Defense-Industrial Sectors (“Laggards”)
Aviation

Bifurcated Sectors (“The Hybrids”)
Defense Electronics and Information Technologies

The Chinese defense electronics and IT sector has always been a special case, reflecting both the successes of the shipbuilding sector and the problems plaguing other sectors. On the one hand, the sector has benefited greatly from China’s status as the world’s IT workshop, reaping the best of the state-of-the-art commercial technologies, such as switches and routers, to support the COTS elements of the PLA’s C4ISR modernization.

On the other hand, the lack of a commercial analogue for high-end military defense electronics, such as radiation-hardened electronics components with wide temperature ranges, has driven the Chinese to aggressively pursue illegal technology acquisition around the world.

...the Chinese military is in the midst of a C4I revolution, characterized by the wholesale shift to digital, secure communications via fiber optic cable, satellite, microwave, and encrypted high-frequency radio. The pace and depth of these advances cannot be explained by traditional Chinese defense-industrial dynamics, but instead spring from a paradigm shift known as the “digital triangle,” which resembles a classic techno-nationalist strategy, with high-level bureaucratic coordination and significant state funding. The three vertices of the “digital triangle” are (1) China’s booming commercial information technology companies, (2) the state R&D institute and funding infrastructure, and (3) the military.
CHAPTER THREE: Role of Western and U.S. Companies in Contributing to Improvements in the Capabilities of the PRC Defense Industry

Summary
The examples of partnerships and exchanges that can facilitate transfers of technology, know-how, and capital from Western and U.S. companies to China’s defense industry are meant to be representative rather than exhaustive lists. They indicate the complexity of the challenges U.S. policy makers face in regulating and monitoring U.S. commercial involvement with Chinese firms. Western and U.S. companies have tremendous incentives to invest and collaborate with their Chinese partners. This is particularly evident in aviation, where safety standards must be a priority. Capital incentives also exert a strong pull, as exhibited by the U.S. software companies that agreed to transfer technology in exchange for market position. But the structure of the Chinese defense industry makes it difficult to restrict transfers of technology, know-how, and capital to Chinese military entities without crippling U.S. business with commercial firms. Under the Yujun Yumin system, and the often gray line separating civilian and military entities, it is exceedingly difficult to distinguish between commercial partnerships that are benign and those that may contribute to strengthening PRC military capabilities.
 
CHAPTER FOUR: Access to International Capital Markets

Summary
After a slow start, Chinese defense-industrial companies are gaining more funding from international capital markets. An emerging trend reveals that more companies are offering H shares on the Hong Kong market, which are favorable to foreign investors. While most companies still have A shares on Chinese domestic markets, a 2002 regulation enables foreign investment in A shares through QFIIs.

In the aviation sector, AVIC is expanding its access to international capital markets and foreign investment relative to the other sectors. It is in the sectoral leader in H-share offerings (3) and total listed subsidiaries (22). This additional capital is primarily used to support development of the indigenous commercial jet project. China’s shipbuilding industry also is a major player in the international capital markets through mammoth holding companies and at least one subsidiary offering H shares.
CHAPTER FIVE: China’s Defense-Industrial Reforms As a Path to True Independence? Entering the “Critical Stage” of Defense-Industrial Reforms

The Chinese defense industry since the late 1970s has undergone a profound transformation, evolving from a relatively inefficient and backward set of legacy organizations from the Mao period to a relatively dynamic and capable network of R&D and production units increasingly integrated into the global economy. Looking to the future, however, China’s senior political, industrial, and military leaders have called the next 20 years the “critical stage” (关键阶段) in China’s modernization of its defenseindustrial base.

A key feature of this “critical stage” involves increasing the relative independence of defense industry. Though domestic innovation is playing a larger role in the industry’s successes, major policy documents and speeches by senior S&T and industry sector leaders make clear that China’s level of dependence on foreign technology and know-how is still too high. To achieve this independence and to progress to a higher level of production sophistication, Beijing is pursuing a multi-pronged reform and modernization strategy.
...
• Significant contract awards to nontraditional suppliers, including non-state enterprises
• Divestures and acquisitions driven by decisions taken by enterprise management, not ministries
• Privatization of defense manufacturers
• Substitution of domestic production for imports

...analysis of procurement patterns suggests that the competitive bid process has become the norm. This revolutionary change will likely be aided by the March 1998 subordination of COSTIND under the Ministry of Industry and Informatization and the corresponding empowerment of the General Armaments Department, which is responsible for running the competitive bid process.

...In terms of significant contract awards to nontraditional suppliers, including non-state enterprises, the biannual China Defense Logistics Exhibition was notable for the number of non-state enterprises in attendance, strongly suggesting the proliferation of a network of new private sector enterprises supporting the defense establishment. Divestitures and acquisitions driven by decisions taken by enterprise management, not ministries are a major focus of SASAC’s reform efforts within the defense-industrial base, particularly as it prepares individual defense-industrial corporations for possible foreign market listings and international capital investment.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Johann »

sum wrote:^^ Congrats to the Chinese...

They sure are making giant strides!!
The most ambitious goals of their manned programme will have to wait until Long March 5 rockets (currently under development) give them the payload capacity needed. Otherwise they'll be a midget version of the Soviet programme in 1977.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

What's that yellow stripe ??? Second prototype.

Image
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Austin
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Austin »

my first guess is it would be a bay for avionics with yellow paint over it marking danger or some radiation sign printed over it.

Its too small to have a patch AESA radar but i dont rule out telemetry patch antenna.

J-20 is looking good in the first photo , the Achilles heels of J-20 will be its engine , considering its a big fighter it would need atleast an engine of 14.5-15 T class to give justice to its flight performance specially during air combat .....now how to get the engine from Russian or if they develop a reliable one is their problem.

For the rest like Weapons , Avionics , Sensors and Radars suite the chinese can do a decent job at it if not a world class one to make J-20 competitive fighter/bomber.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

Austin wrote:my first guess is it would be a bay for avionics with yellow paint over it marking danger or some radiation sign printed over it.

Its too small to have a patch AESA radar but i dont rule out telemetry patch antenna.

J-20 is looking good in the first photo , the Achilles heels of J-20 will be its engine , considering its a big fighter it would need atleast an engine of 14.5-15 T class to give justice to its flight performance specially during air combat .....now how to get the engine from Russian or if they develop a reliable one is their problem.

For the rest like Weapons , Avionics , Sensors and Radars suite the chinese can do a decent job at it if not a world class one to make J-20 competitive fighter/bomber.
OK Thanks for the suggestion and your input. : )
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Austin »

Oh just thinking over it , since those yellow marking are over the radome very close to where the main radar Antenna should be , I am wondering if the Chinese have added the radar and are flight testing it with the prototype.

Even PAK-FA 3rd prototype is flying with the new AESA radar.

A pitot tube on the front of radome with some caliberating instrument would indicate it has no actual working radar , could just be antenna that is not radiating or ballast.

I have seen similar yellow marking on Tejas

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dHO8Qs-JPgo/T ... CA+-+1.JPG
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by SKrishna »

^^^^^

Those yellow strips on the J-20 and on the Tejas are illuminated (fluorescent?) strips used for formation flying. Was discussed some eons ago on the LCA thread...
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

One more interesting picture

Image
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by aditp »

Already smoking heh heh
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by wong »

It's a fuel dump.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Austin »

The J-20 design might not look supremely stealthy right now but it has tremendous potential for growth , they would perhaps develop in A/B/C model like they are doing with J-10 and can progressively add higher thrust engine , 3D TVC , Elimination of Canards and Ventral fins for better LO properties , twin seater , more composite etc ....the chinese seems to be conservative in their approach like the Russians get the basic aircraft up in the air and then progressively fiddle with A,B,C model.

Is there any official specs released on J-20 ?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

Russia Looking at China S-400 Deliveries in 2017

© RIA Novosti. Artem Jitenev
11:47 27/06/2012
ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow region), June 27 (RIA Novosti)

Russia will start exports of the S-400 Triumph air defense missile systems to China no earlier than 2017, a source in the defense industry told RIA Novosti on the condition of anonymity.
“An export version of the S-400 Triumph air defense missile will have been developed by 2017 with the Chinese to be the first clients,” the source said.
Russia currently has four S-400 regiments - two in the Moscow region, one in the Baltic Fleet and one in the Eastern Military District.

By 2020, Russia is to have 28 S-400 regiments, each comprised of two battalions, mainly in maritime and border areas.

In early June, Russian Defense Ministry said there were no plans to export the S-400, which will be produced only for the Russian Armed Forces.

The S-400 Triumph, which succeeds the Soviet-era S-300, is a medium- to long-range surface-to-air missile system that can effectively engage any aerial target, including aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles, and cruise and ballistic missiles at up to 400 kilometers and an altitude of up to 30 kilometers.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20120627/174264185.html
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

looks like in 2017 they will cease production for local use and convert it as a cash cow product.
by that time the S-500 should be done with development.
nice plan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-500_(missile)
In 2011 it was announced that the S-500 program was at least two years behind schedule, with the planned date of introduction to service now set to 2017. Production of prototypes and the testing programme are expected to be completed in 2015
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

New corvette type 56 launched 4 being built for Hong Kong garrison ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by alexis »

^^^
nice looking ships
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by SaiK »

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by SaiK »

j20 does look stealthy. As Austin pointed, they might have gotten ahead with the engine tie-ups from russkies.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by yantra »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/ ... 7J20120629

United Technologies sent military copter tech to China
United Technologies Corp on Thursday admitted selling China software that helped Beijing develop its first modern military attack helicopter, one of hundreds of export control violations over nearly two decades.

At a federal court hearing in Bridgeport, Connecticut, United Technologies and its two subsidiaries, Pratt & Whitney Canada and Hamilton Sundstrand Corp, agreed to pay more than $75 million to the U.S. government to settle criminal and administrative charges related to the violations.

As part of the settlement, Pratt & Whitney Canada pleaded guilty to two federal criminal charges - violating a U.S. export control law and making false statements.

Federal prosecutors said the company knew that its export of modified software to China would allow Beijing to test and develop its new military helicopter, called the Z-10, using 10 engines that had been legally exported as commercial items.

They said the company harmed national security while trying to gain access to China's lucrative civilian helicopter marketl
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by yantra »

^^^ Interesting comments section there too!
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Gurneesh »

yantra wrote:
At a federal court hearing in Bridgeport, Connecticut, United Technologies and its two subsidiaries, Pratt & Whitney Canada and Hamilton Sundstrand Corp, agreed to pay more than $75 million to the U.S. government to settle criminal and administrative charges related to the violations.
So United tech has to pay around 100 mil penalty for something that they might have received much more money ...
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

so what engine is the WZ-10 using for production run?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by svinayak »

yantra wrote:^^^ Interesting comments section there too!
Does ANYBODY actually believe that advanced technology given for “peaceful purposes” won’t make it into “military projects” in countries like China or Russia (or a dozen others)? UTC is getting off with the smallest of penalties, but what about the govt agencies and employees that granted the export licenses? Speaking of which, in a couple of years we’ll be reading about how the Chinese have made huge advances in aircraft jet engines following the joint business venture between GE (President Marxist’s buddy Immelt) and the CIVILIAN Chinese aircraft industry. But hey, who could see it coming years in advance?
So is it another method to transfer mil tech to PRC to make sure that it is at par with its rivals.
PRC is being helped openly to keep up its tech
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

Singha wrote:so what engine is the WZ-10 using for production run?
Domestically produced uprated WZ-9 engines.

They will Codevelop a new engine called WZ 60 with the help of Turbomeca which can also be used on Z-10

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... d=blogDest
Fabre said Turbomeca and China will codevelop a version of the 1,800 shp Ardiden engine that will have 15% better fuel burn than the P&WC engine it will replace. Called the WZ60, it should enter service in 2014.
The move to develop an engine in China would spare the Z-15 from U.S. embargoes on its engines should it enter service with the Chinese armed forces.

Fabre said it would be no surprise if the helicopter turned out to be dual use, and Turbomeca engines have already been licensed by the French government for such purposes.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Acharya wrote:
yantra wrote:^^^ Interesting comments section there too!
Does ANYBODY actually believe that advanced technology given for “peaceful purposes” won’t make it into “military projects” in countries like China or Russia (or a dozen others)? UTC is getting off with the smallest of penalties, but what about the govt agencies and employees that granted the export licenses? Speaking of which, in a couple of years we’ll be reading about how the Chinese have made huge advances in aircraft jet engines following the joint business venture between GE (President Marxist’s buddy Immelt) and the CIVILIAN Chinese aircraft industry. But hey, who could see it coming years in advance?
So is it another method to transfer mil tech to PRC to make sure that it is at par with its rivals.
PRC is being helped openly to keep up its tech
While US had denied us 'LHTEC T800' engine for Dhruv & LCH that's why we had to go for less powerful french engine.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by eklavya »

Would be good to see J-20 etc flying in Iranian Air Force colours. Maybe if the Iranians hold off for another 10-12 years before nuclearising, and then defend their airspace with J-20s, etc, there could be a first class Israel vs Iran match worth watching. :mrgreen:

If they 'sell' a couple to Pakistan, the match may start sooner rather than later.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_22906 »

^^
and what is good in Iran getting the J20? Iran has had a nasty habit of supporting TSP whenever the crunch time comes
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by eklavya »

Oh no! What a scary thought
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Multatuli »

This export of advanced helicopter engines to China reminds me of the nuclear" espionage case with A. Q. Khan.

It seems to me, from what I have read, that the GOTUS and Dutch government guided and assisted A.Q. Khans' efforts. Acharya is probably quite right in saying that this is a deliberate transfer of technology to China by the US government.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by SaiK »

what is frigging point in postmortem of stolen technologies? we all know that.. and still do not consider as a challenge to develop K. K is more important the moon mission in a certain scope of things. i don't really care about wz10.. but K.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by kit »

The US controls the flow of tech to both china and India esp the latter both covertly and overtly no matter what they say . That's why deals with them should never be at the expense of indigenous projects .
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by wong »

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

wong wrote:J-21/F-60 Caravan

http://www.youtube.com/embed/lS9GSVGO7yo
Stupid video. 2 minutes of nothing. 2 seconds of a cockeyed camoed plane shaped thing flashing past after which a pink finger is put over the lens. Waste of time.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

eklavya wrote:Oh no! What a scary thought
Why is it scaring you?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by DavidD »

shiv wrote:
wong wrote:J-21/F-60 Caravan

http://www.youtube.com/embed/lS9GSVGO7yo
Stupid video. 2 minutes of nothing. 2 seconds of a cockeyed camoed plane shaped thing flashing past after which a pink finger is put over the lens. Waste of time.

There are some clearer pics of the canopied plane around, rumored to be the medium-sized 5th gen fighter from SAC, supposedly around 17 meters in length and powered by two WS-13's with the first flight scheduled some time in August/September.

The 056 looks pretty modern, but it's really quite feeble, designed as a cheap, low-end, and somewhat mission-flexible coastal patrol ship.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

shiv wrote:
wong wrote:J-21/F-60 Caravan

http://www.youtube.com/embed/lS9GSVGO7yo
Stupid video. 2 minutes of nothing. 2 seconds of a cockeyed camoed plane shaped thing flashing past after which a pink finger is put over the lens. Waste of time.
Yeah agreed stupid video a waste of time.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

DavidD wrote:
shiv wrote:J-21/F-60 Caravan

http://www.youtube.com/embed/lS9GSVGO7yo

Stupid video. 2 minutes of nothing. 2 seconds of a cockeyed camoed plane shaped thing flashing past after which a pink finger is put over the lens. Waste of time.

There are some clearer pics of the canopied plane around, rumored to be the medium-sized 5th gen fighter from SAC, supposedly around 17 meters in length and powered by two WS-13's with the first flight scheduled some time in August/September.

.
Save the lecture just post the pictures when it shows up otherwise don't waste our time.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by eklavya »

shiv wrote:
eklavya wrote:Oh no! What a scary thought
Why is it scaring you?
It isn't scaring me! I should have added a smiley after my one liner. Everything about the Joke-20 is too funny.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by wong »

DavidD wrote:
There are some clearer pics of the canopied plane around, rumored to be the medium-sized 5th gen fighter from SAC, supposedly around 17 meters in length and powered by two WS-13's with the first flight scheduled some time in August/September.

The 056 looks pretty modern, but it's really quite feeble, designed as a cheap, low-end, and somewhat mission-flexible coastal patrol ship.
What's interesting is the size of that police escort for just a "plane shape thing".

Also, this wasn't the SAC design that went up against the CAC J-20 (specs would be all wrong), so there is another larger SAC design out there. The J-21/F-60 is for carrier and export (i.e. Pakistan).
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by nakul »

What's interesting is the size of that police escort for just a "plane shape thing".
What's even more interesting that they are attracting so much attention towards the plane. It is not a nuclear bomb that someone could run off with. :lol:

If secrecy is desired, transport in daylight is not the ideal method. Even Pakistanis are more discreet :mrgreen:
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