Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 02 Jul 2012 21:19

ramana wrote:Shiv, Maybe Darius is named after 'Druhyus'


Note the Aramic spelling dryhwš !!!

RajeshA, What does Sanskrit Druhyus mean in English?


Hmm. Likely. Didn't think of that.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RamaY » 02 Jul 2012 21:25

द्रुह् druh adj. injuring
द्रुह् druh adj. hurtful
द्रुह् druh adj. hostile to
द्रुह् druh f. harm
द्रुह् druh f. offence
द्रुह् druh f. injury
द्रुह् druh m.f. fiend
द्रुह् druh m.f. demon
द्रुह् druh m.f. injurer
द्रुह् druh m.f. foe

Added Later: Probably meaning "Hostile to Enemies". And also indicates SD system where the names (given in a proper Namakaran) indicate personalty of that individual.

Yayati's curse to his son Druhyu

You, along with your progeny, will go to a place where there are no horses, chariots, elephants, palanquins, donkeys or cows etc., and where one has to travel by boats and ships. There you and your children will rule the place. They will be called "Bhoja" lineage.
Last edited by RamaY on 02 Jul 2012 22:02, edited 2 times in total.

ramana
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 02 Jul 2012 21:40

Why would one name his kid druh with all those negative meanings? Was it an acquired nick-name for Yayati's son?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Jul 2012 21:45

may be it was "druh" against some other foe originally, not just "druh"
but like amartya, or shatru-ghan, etc., ...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 02 Jul 2012 22:23

RamaY wrote:द्रुह् druh adj. injuring
द्रुह् druh adj. hurtful
द्रुह् druh adj. hostile to
द्रुह् druh f. harm
द्रुह् druh f. offence
द्रुह् druh f. injury
द्रुह् druh m.f. fiend
द्रुह् druh m.f. demon
द्रुह् druh m.f. injurer
द्रुह् druh m.f. foe

ramana wrote:Shiv, Maybe Darius is named after 'Druhyus'


Note the Aramic spelling dryhwš !!!

RajeshA, What does Sanskrit Druhyus mean in English?

ramana garu,

I too can't imagine somebody calling their son Druhyu, which should have the meanings as listed by RamaY ji. It is true that druj in Avestan have similar meanings.

So all I can speculate is that these meanings came to be associated with the stem druh only after the Druhyus came into conflict with the others, both with Purus as well Anus, and they started to be denigrated and cursed.

It seems Dārayava(h)uš could have meant "upholder of good"!

What I find fascinating is that the Achaemenid Empire didn't expand across the Indus, but expanded towards the Greek areas. The Persians and the Greeks have had a real rivalry running. India and Iran seemed to have some sort of pact.

Wikipedia writes (from Romila Thapar's A History of India Vol. 1)
By 520 BCE, during the reign of Darius I of Persia, much of the northwestern subcontinent (present-day eastern Afghanistan and Pakistan) came under the rule of the Persian Achaemenid Empire. The area remained under Persian control for two centuries. During this time India supplied mercenaries to the Persian army then fighting in Greece. Under Persian rule the famous city of Takshashila became a center where both Vedic and Iranian learning were mingled.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 02 Jul 2012 22:25

This is what Wiki has to say about the Behistun inscription, different from the previous posted inscription.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_trans ... nscription

1) I am Darius [Dâryavuš], the great king, king of kings, the king of Persia [Pârsa], the king of countries, the son of Hystaspes, the grandson of Arsames, the Achaemenid.

(2) King Darius says: My father is Hystaspes [Vištâspa]; the father of Hystaspes was Arsames [Aršâma]; the father of Arsames was Ariaramnes [Ariyâramna]; the father of Ariaramnes was Teispes [Cišpiš]; the father of Teispes was Achaemenes [Haxâmaniš].

(3) King Darius says: That is why we are called Achaemenids; from antiquity we have been noble; from antiquity has our dynasty been royal.

(4) King Darius says: Eight of my dynasty were kings before me; I am the ninth. Nine in succession we have been kings.

(5) King Darius says: By the grace of Ahuramazda am I king; Ahuramazda has granted me the kingdom.


Compare to the previously posted:

By: M. Sadeq Nazmi-Afshar
The Origins of Aryan People: Iran Chamber Society

I am Darius, the great king, the king of kings
The king of many countries and many people
The king of this expansive land,
The son of Wishtaspa of Achaemenid,
Persian, the son of a Persian,
'Aryan', from the Aryan race
"From the Darius the Great's Inscription in Naqshe-e-Rostam"


here is another translation for that:
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/dari ... rostam.php

II. I am Darius the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage.


"An Aryan, having Aryan lineage" could simply mean "A Noble, having Noble lineage".
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 02 Jul 2012 22:27

ramana wrote:Why would one name his kid druh with all those negative meanings? Was it an acquired nick-name for Yayati's son?


Ramana. It may not be dhruh. It may be dhru + hyus

Dhru means "to keep/hold/preserve" and is the root of the word Dharm= dhru+man

Dhru + hyus could conceivably mean one who preserves the past (hyus - yesterday)
Last edited by shiv on 02 Jul 2012 22:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 02 Jul 2012 22:31

Proves I am no PIE nor Sanskrit scholar!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 02 Jul 2012 22:35

The inscription and transliteration are here:
http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DNa.html

baga must be god (same root as bhagavaan)
Ariya might be Arya
Notice "Gadâra \ Hiduš" for what we have today as Gandhara\Hindu.
(Is it the transliteration is lacking, or did the 'n' come later?)

"Sakâ \ haumavargâ" are the "hoama-drinking Shakas", hoama is I suppose cognate to the word "soma" in the Veda; though may not refer the same physical substance.

"Yauna" are greeks, compare to "Yavana"

baga \ vazraka \ Auramazdâ \ hya \ im
âm \ bumâm \ adâ \ hya \ avam \ asm
ânam \ adâ \ hya \ martiyam \ adâ \ h
ya \ šiyâtim \ adâ \ martiyahyâ
\ hya \ Dârayavaum \ xšâyathiyam \ ak
unauš \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ xšâyath
iyam \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ framâtâ
ram \ adam \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ va
zraka \ xšâyathiya \ xšâyathiyânâm
\ xšâyathiya \ dahyûnâm \ vispazanâ
nâm \ xšâyathiya \ ahyâyâ \ bûmi
yâ \ vazrakâyâ \ dûraiapiy \ Vištâs
pahyâ \ puça \ Haxâmanišiya \ Pârsa \ P
ârsahyâ \ puça \ Ariya \ Ariya \ ci
ça \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ xšâya
thiya \ vašnâ \ Auramazdâhâ \ imâ \
dahyâva \ tyâ \ adam \ agarbâyam \
apataram \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ adamšâm \
patiyaxšayaiy \ manâ \ bâjim \ abara
ha \ tvašâm \ hacâma \ athahya \ ava \ a
kunava \ dâtam \ tya \ manâ \ avadiš \
adâraiya \ Mâda \ Ûvja \ Parthava \ Harai
va \ Bâxtriš \ Suguda \ Uvârazm
iš \ Zraka \ Harauvatiš \ Thataguš \ Ga
dâra \ Hiduš \ Sakâ \ haumavargâ \ Sa
kâ \ tigraxaudâ \ Bâbiruš \ A
thurâ \ Arabâya \ Mudrâya \ Armina
\ Katpatuka \ Sparda \ Yauna \ Sakâ \ tyaiy \ pa
radraya \ Skudra \ Yaunâ \ takabarâ \ Putây
â \ Kûšiyâ \ Maciyâ \ Karkâ \ thâtiy \ D

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 03 Jul 2012 01:21

would n't dhru->dhruva ->naksatra?

--

coming back to horse:
Found so many hits in online Sanskrit dictionary.


Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results
1 abhidhA 1 %{-dadhAti} , to surrender any one to (dat. ; aor. Subj. 2. du. %{-dhAtam}) RV. i , 120 , 8 ; to bring upon (dat.) RV. ii , 23 , 6: A1. (rarely P.) to put on or round , put on the furniture of a horse (cf. %{abhi4-hIta} below) RV. &c. ; to cover (a country) with an army MBh. ii , 1090 ; to cover , protect RV. viii , 67 , 5 (aor. Pot. 2. pl. %{-dhetana}) , &c. ; (in classical Sanskr2it generally) to set forth , explain , tell , speak to , address , say , name (cf. %{abhi4-hita} below): Pass. %{-dhIyate} , to be named or called: Caus. %{-dhApayate} , to cause to name A1s3vGr2.: Desid. A1. %{-dhi4tsate} , to intend to cover one's self RV. x , 85 , 30.
2 abhihita mfn. ( %{dhA}) , harnessed or put to (as a horse) RV. AV. S3Br. ; named , called Mn. iii , 141 , &c. ; held forth , said , declared , spoken MBh. Mn. &c. ; spoken to Kum. &c. ; m. N. of a chief L. ; (%{am}) n. a name , expression , word.
3 abhikSip (only P. Pa1n2. 1-3 , 80 ; pr. p. %{-kSipa4t}) to fling at (as the lash of a whip at a horse) RV. v , 83 , 3 ; to excel Bhat2t2.
4 Acchurita mfn. ( %{chur}) , covered , clothed with (instr.) Katha1s. ; (%{am}) n. making a noise with the finger-nails by rubbing them on one another L. ; a horse-laugh L.
5 Acchuritaka n. a scratch with a fingernail L. ; a horse-laugh L.
6 AdAna 2 n. binding on or to , fettering AV. ; horse-trappings L. ; (for 3. %{A-dAna} see below under %{A-do}.)
7 Adhibhoga m. enjoyment or use of a deposit (use of a horse , cow , &c. when pledged) Gaut. xii , 35.
8 adhipraSTiyuga n. yoke for attaching a fourth horse laid upon the %{praSTi} , or foremost of three horses (used on sacrificial occasions) S3Br.
9 adhozvam ind. under the horse Ka1tyS3r.
10 aghAzva mfn. having a bad or vicious horse RV. i , 116 , 6 ; (%{a4s}) [according to NBD. fr. %{agha} + %{zvas}] m. N. of a snake AV.
11 aGkasa n. the flanks or the trappings of a horse RV. iv , 40 , 3.
12 agnipada m. whose foot has stepped on the sacrificial fire place "'N. of a horse La1t2y. Vait.
13 AjAneya mf(%{I4})n. of noble origin , of good breed (as a horse) Ka1tyS3r. MBh. ; originating or descending from (in comp.) Buddh. ; m. a well-bred horse MBh. iii , 15704.
14 akSAnah (the vowel lengthened as in %{upA-na4h} , &c.) , mfn. tied to the axle of a car RV. x , 53 , 7 ; (horse Sa1y. ; trace attached to the horse's collar Gmn.)
15 akSauhiNI f. an army consisting of ten anikinis , or 21 , 870 elephants , 21 , 870 chariots , 65 , 610 horse , and 109 , 350 foot. (Since an anikini consists of 27 va1hinis , and 27 is the cube of 3 , %{akSauhiNI} may be a compound of 2. %{akSa} and %{vAhini} ; or it may possibly be connected with 1. %{akSa} , axle , car.)
16 alpavayas mfn. young in age (as a horse) L.
17 amoghabala mfn. of never-failing strength (said of the horse Uccaih2sravas).
18 amRtabandhu (%{amRta-}) m. friend or keeper of immortality RV. x , 72 , 5 ; `" friend of Nectar "' , a horse (so called because produced from the ocean along with the Nectar) L.
19 amRtasahodara m. `" brother of Nectar "' , a horse (cf. %{-bandhu}) L.
20 anazva mfn. having no horse or horses RV. [cf. $] ; m. something that is not a horse Pan5cat.
21 AnIla mf(%{A})n. darkish Ragh. Vikr. ; slightly dark or blue ; m. a black horse L. ; (%{I}) f. a black mare T. ; tin L.
22 apAvRtta mfn. (for %{apa8-} , the vowel being metrically lengthened in the antepenultimate of a s3loka) , (with abl.) turned away from R. ; abstaining from , rejecting MBh. ; (%{am}) n. the rolling on the ground (of a horse) L.
23 apratidhura mfn. without a match in going at the pole of a carriage (as a horse) S3Br.
24 arAvan 2 %{A} m. = %{arvan} , a steed , horse [NBD. ; = %{ara-vat} , having spokes or wheels , a cart "' , Ludwig. = %{gamana-vat} , moving Sa1y] RV. vii 68 , 7.
25 Aroha m. one who mounts or ascends , a rider (on a horse &c.) , one who is seated in a carriage R. ; ascent , rising , creeping up , mounting S3ak. Katha1s. R. ; haughtiness , pride Katha1s. ; elevation , elevated place , altitude R. ; a heap , mountain R. ; increase Sa1h. ; a woman's waist , the swell of the body R. BrahmaP. S3is3. ; length L. ; a particular measure L. ; descending (= %{ava-roha} ?) L.
26 ArUDha mfn. mounted , ascended , bestridden (as a horse &c.) MBh. Hariv. BhP. ; risen ; raised up , elevated on high VarBr2S. Pan5cat. Hit. Katha1s. &c. ; undertaken ; reached , brought to (often used in compounds e.g. %{indriyA7rUDha} , brought under the cognizance of the senses , perceived) BhP. ; having reached or attained , come into (a state) BhP. Prab. S3ak. Katha1s. &c. ; (%{am}) n. the mounting , arising.
27 arvan mfn. running , quick (said of Agni and Indra) RV. ; low , inferior , vile Un2. ; (%{A}) m. a courser , horse RV. AV. S3Br. N. of Indra (see before) L. ; one of the ten horses of the moon L. ; a short span L. (cf. %{a4rAvan}.)
28 arvat mfn. running , hasting RV. v , 54 , 14 and AV. iv , 9 , 2 ; low , inferior , vile Un2. ; (%{An}) m. a courser , horse RV. VS. AV. BhP. ; the driver of a horse RV. x , 40 , 5 and 74 , 1 ; N. of a part of the sacrificial action RV. ii , 33 , i and viii , 71 , 12 , (%{a4rvati}) f. a mare RV. AV. ; a bawd , procuress. L.
29 Askandita mfn. subject to or burdened with ; (%{am}) and (%{-akam}) n. a horse's gallop L.
30 aSTamaGgala n. a collection of eight lucky things (for certain great occasions , such as a coronation &c.) e.g. a lion , a bull , an elephant , a water-jar , a fan , a flag , a trumpet , and a lamp ; (or , according to others , a Bra1hman , a cow , fire , gold , ghee , the sun , water , and a king) ; m. a horse with a white face , tail , mane , breast , and hoofs L.
31 atiruc 2 m. a horse's fetlock or knee VS.
32 aTTahasita n. loud laughter , a horse-laugh.
33 aTTahAsya n. loud laughter ; a horse-laugh.
34 auccaihzravasa m. (fr. %{uccaiH-zravas})N. of Indra's horse AV. xx , 128 , 15 ; 16 ; a horse Nigh.
35 aurva 1 m. a descendant of U1rvaN. of a R2ishi RV. viii , 102 , 4 TS. vii AitBr. MBh. &c. ; (in later mythology he is called Aurva Bha1rgava as son of Cyavana and grandson of Bhr2igu ; he is the subject of a legend told in MBh. i , 6802 ; there it is said that the sons of Kr2itavi1rya , wishing to destroy the descendants of Bhr2igu in order to recover the wealth left them by their father , slew even the children in the womb ; one of the women of the family of Bhr2igu , in order to preserve her embryo , secreted it in her thigh [%{Uru}] , whence the child at its birth was named Aurva ; on beholding whom , the sons of Kr2itavi1rya were struck with blindness , and from whose wrath proceeded a flame that threatened to destroy the world , had not Aurva at the persuasion of the Bha1rgavas cast it into the ocean , where it remained concealed , and having the face of a horse ; Aurva was afterwards preceptor to Sagara and gave him the A1gneya7stram , with which he conquered the barbarians who invaded his possessions ; cf. %{vaDavA-mukha} , %{vaDavA7gni}) ; N. of a son of Vasisht2ha Hariv. ; (%{As}) m. pl.N. of a class of Pitr2is Ta1n2d2yaBr. La1t2y. ; (%{I}) f. a female descendant of U1rva Ka1s3. on Pa1n2. 4-1 , 73 ; (mfn.) produced by or relating to the R2ishi Aurva MBh. i , 387 , &c. ; m. the submarine fire (cast into the ocean by Aurva Bha1rgava cf. above).
36 av cl. I .P. %{a4vati} (Imper. 2. sg. %{ava} sg. %{tAt} RV. viii , 2 , 3 , p. %{a4vat} impf. a4vat , 2. sg. 1. %{A4vaH} [for 2. %{A4vaH} see %{vR}] ; perf. 3. sg. %{Ava} , 2. pl. %{Ava4} RV. viii , 7 , 18 , 2.sg. %{A4vitha} ; aor. %{a4vit} , 2. sg. %{AvIs} , %{avIs} and %{aviSas} , Imper. %{aviSTu} , 2. sg. %{aviDDhi4} [once RV. ii , 17 , 8] or %{aviDDh} [six times in RV.] , 2. du. %{aviSTam} , 3. du. , 2. pl. %{aviSTa4nA} RV. vii , 18 , 25 Prec. 3. sg. %{avyAs} , Inf. %{a4vitave} RV. vii , 33 , 1 ; Ved. ind. p. %{AvyA} RV. i , 166 , 13) to drive , impel , animate (as a car or horse) RV. ; Ved.to promote , favour , (chiefly Ved.) to satisfy , refresh ; to offer (as a hymn to the gods) "' RV. iv , 44 , 6 ; to lead or bring to (dat.: %{Uta4ye} , %{vA4ja-sAtaye} , %{kSatrA4ya} , %{svasta4ye}) RV. ; (said of the gods) to be pleased with , like , accept favourably (as sacrifices , prayers or hymns) RV. , (chiefly said of kings or princes) to guard , defend , protect , govern BhP. Ragh. ix , 1 VarBr2S. &c.: Caus. (only impf. %{avayat} , 2. sg. %{Avayas}) to consume , devour RV. AV. VS. S3Br. [cf. Gk. $ Lat. {aveo}?]. &29765[96 ,1]
37 avacchurita or %{-taka} n. a horse-laugh L.
38 avAjin %{I} m. a bad horse RV. iii , 53 , 23.
39 avamArjana n. an instrument (or `" water "' Sa1y.) for rubbing down (a horse) , a curry-comb [Gmn. Transl.] RV. i , 163 , 5 [`" that which is rubbed off "' NBD.] ; wipings MBh. iii , 13373.
40 avanIyamAna mfn. (Pass. p.) being led down into water (as a horse) Ka1tyS3r.
41 Avarta m. turning , winding , turning round , revolving R. Sa1h. Sus3r. ; whirl , gulf , whirlpool S3Br. Megh. MBh. Ragh. &c. ; deliberation , revolving (in the mind) L. ; a lock of hair that curls backwards (especially on a horse considered lucky) , a curl R. S3is3. &c. [156,2] ; the two depressions of the forehead above the eyebrows Sus3r. ; a crowded place where many men live close together ; a kind of jewel L. ; N. of a form of cloud personified ; (%{A}) f. N. of a river L. ; (%{am}) n. a mineral substance , pyrites , marcasite L.
42 Avartin mfn. whirling or turning upon itself ; returning ; (%{I}) m. a horse having curls of hair on various parts of his body (considered as a lucky mark) ; (%{inI}) f. a whirlpool ; N. of the plant Odina Pinnata &c. ; (%{i}) n. N. of particular Stotras La1t2y.
43 azrupAta m. = %{-nipAta} q.v. MBh. xiv , 1638 Sa1h. ; N. of a particular part of a horse's head VarBr2S.
44 Azu mfn. (1. %{az} Un2. i , 1) , fast , quick , going quickly RV. AV. S3Br. &c. ; (%{us}) m. Ved. the quick one , a horse RV. AV. ; (%{us} , or %{u}) m. n. rice ripening quickly in the rainy season S3Br. Ka1tyS3r. L. ; (%{u}) n. N. of a Sa1man ; (%{u}) ind. quickly , quick , immediately , directly Sus3r. Megh. Pan5cat. &c. (cf. Gk. $ , $ ; Lat. {acu} in {acupedius} , &49452[157 ,3] {o7cissimus}: of the same origin may be the Lat. {aquila} and {accipiter}.)
45 Azuzravas m. N. of a mythical horse Katha1s.
46 azva 1 (2. rarely 3 RV.) m. (1. %{az} Un2.) ifc. f. %{A} , a horse , stallion RV. &c. ; the , horse (in the game of chess) ; the number `" seven "' (that being the number of the horses of the sun) ; the archer (in the zodiac) VarBr2. ; a particular kind of lover (horse-like in strength) L. ; N. of a teacher (with the patron. Sa1mudri) S3Br. xiii ; of a son of Citraka Hariv. 1921 ; of a Da1nava MBh. i , 2532 ; (%{A}) f. (g. %{ajA7di} q.v.) a mare RV. &c. [Zd. {aspa} ; Lat. {equus} ; Gk. $ , &c.]
47 azva 2 Nom. P. %{azvati} , to behave like a horse Pa1n2. 3-1 , 11 Sch.
48 Azva mf(%{I})n. (fr. %{azva}) , belonging to a horse , equestrian Nir. Sus3r. ; drawn by horses (as a chariot) Comm. on Pa1n2. ; (%{am}) n. a number of horses Pa1n2. ; the state or action of a horse Comm. on Pa1n2. ; N. of several Sa1mans.
49 azvabhAra m. the load of a horse , (g. %{vaMzA7di} , q.v.)
50 AzvabhArika mfn. (fr. %{azva-bhAra}) , carrying a horse-load Pa1n2.
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 01:24

Yasna 12: the Fravarane (the Zoroastrian creed)

I curse the Daevas.

I declare myself a Mazda-worshipper, a supporter of Zarathustra, hostile to the Daevas, fond of Ahura's teaching, a praiser of the Amesha Spentas, a worshipper of the Amesha Spentas. I ascribe all good to Ahuramazda, 'and all the best,' Asha-endowed, splendid, xwarena-endowed, whose is the cow, whose is Asha, whose is the light, 'may whose blissful areas be filled with light'.

I choose the good Spenta Armaiti for myself; let her be mine. I renounce the theft and robbery of the cow, and the damaging and plundering of the Mazdayasnian settlements. I want freedom of movement and freedom of dwelling for those with homesteads, to those who dwell upon this earth with their cattle. With reverence for Asha, and (offerings) offered up, I vow this: I shall nevermore damage or plunder the Mazdayasnian settlements, even if I have to risk life and limb.


Interesting that stealing the cow is considered as a severe sin!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 03 Jul 2012 02:32

Also interesting that the last refuge in the Old World for the Zarathustrans is the land of the Aryas, who are deva worshippers.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 02:58

A_Gupta wrote:Also interesting that the last refuge in the Old World for the Zarathustrans is the land of the Aryas, who are deva worshippers.

We Yindoos create so much cognitive dissonance in the world! :)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 03 Jul 2012 03:24

I am thinking... people in desh have always found a bit exaggerated story line when it comes to remarkable people in the myth, with magical twists to it.. I think this is normal in most cultures, like Jesus resurrection, Golden gooseberries of Shankara etc. What lies underneath is the real fact, that these projections are actually the impact of the culture or adapters or proxies to the real events.

So, for example: Shiva's flame could be equated to Volcanic eruption. Saraswati's took the flame to the sea.. describing the event by form of stories... and easy to remember, when there is no way to document them by way of writing. all mental!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SandeepA » 03 Jul 2012 03:38


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 04:03

Books @openlibrary.org, one can read online

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Publication Date: 1888
Author: Hermann Oldenberg
Die Hymne des Rigvedas, Band 1: Metrische und textgeschichtliche Prolegomena
Prolegomena on metre and textual history of the R̥gveda

This is a book often cited by the AIT-Nazis, and scholars like Talageri are asked to justify any deviations from the conclusions made by this author in this book.

Oldenberg made a distinction between the original text of the Rgveda the form in which the rsis composed and recited their hymns and the `traditional text` which in a fixed form, has been handed down to us by the oral tradition. Oldenberg made a thorough critical study of all aspects of the traditional text in order to present to the world of scholars the original text in the form and arrangement discovered by him. The materials that are now being published in this volume were intended by Oldenberg to serve as a Preface to his proposed edition of the Rgveda.


Here is a longer review of the book.

If somebody can find an online copy of the said book, it would be appreciated if he could link it here.

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Publication Date: 1894
Author: Hermann Oldenberg
Die Religion des Veda


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Publication Date: 1896
Author: Hermann Oldenberg
Ancient India: its language and religions


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Publication Date: 1899
Author: Hermann Oldenberg
Aus Indien und Iran (German)
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 04:25

SaiK wrote:So, for example: Shiva's flame could be equated to Volcanic eruption. Saraswati's took the flame to the sea.. describing the event by form of stories... and easy to remember, when there is no way to document them by way of writing. all mental!


Saik ji,

very much true.

Just imagine one has to explain astronomical sky and various astronomical events to people, and the tradition of narrating those events has to be promulgated over 7-8 thousand years, it would be nearly impossible. Nobody really has any interest in dry numbers. But by weaving all those events into interesting stories, they were able to record such events in the civilizational memory. over several millennia - a terrific achievement.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 03 Jul 2012 04:45

RajeshA and SaiK, Now relate the story of the Ikshvakus Bhagiratha praying to Shiv to bring Ganga to Earth and the drying of the Saraswati river. The key facts are that during the time of the ikshvakus ie before the Ramayana was composed, Ganga river became more prevalent and led to the GV civilization. By time of Mahabharata, the Ganga was very strong motif and Saraswati a distant memory.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 05:01

Books @openlibrary.org, one can read online

Sympathetic writer!
In one of his letters, Max Müller writes
'the author seems to have been taken in by the Brahmins of India'


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Published 1870
Author: Louis Jacolliot
Translated from La Bible dans l'Inde
The Bible in India - Hindoo origin of Hebrew and Christian revelation

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Published 1901
Author: Louis Jacolliot
Occult Science in India and Among the Ancients: With an Account of Their Mystic Initiations, and ..

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 05:27

Books @openlibrary.org, one can read online

Sympathetic writer!

Image

Published in 1856
Author: Theodor Goldstücker
A Dictionary, Sanskrit and English


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Published in 1861
Author: Theodor Goldstücker
Panini : his place in Sanskrit literature

Weber was so much upset that he stooped to use abusive language of the coarsest kind against Prof. Goldstucker. He said that the views of Prof. Goldstucker about the Worterbuch showed 'a perfect derangement of his mental faculties', since he did not reject the authority of the greatest Hindu scholars freely and easily. Replying to their undignified attacks Prof. Goldstucker exposed the conspiracy of Professors Roth, Boehtlingk, Weber and Kahn which they had formed to undermine the greatness of ancient Bharatvarsha. He wrote:
'It will, of course, be my duty to show, at the earliest opportunity, that Dr. Boehtlingk is incapable of understanding even easy rules of Panini, much less those of Katyayana and still less is he capable of making use of them in the understanding of Classical texts. The errors in his department of the Dictionary are so numerous........ that it will fill every serious Sanskritist with dismay, when he calculates the mischievous influence which they must exercise on the study of Sanskrit philology'.

He further remarks: '....that questions which ought to have been decided with the very utmost circumspection and which could not be decided without very laborious research have been trifled with in the Worterbuch in the most unwarranted manner.'

Provoked by the unwarranted flouting of the authentic Hindu tradition, Professor Goldstucker was compelled to raise his 'feeble but solitary voice' against the coterie of mischievous propagandists masquerading under the garb of 'scientific' scholars. He concludes his laborious work with the following significant remarks:
'When I see that the most distinguished and most learned Hindu scholars and divines - the most valuable and sometimes the only source of all our knowledge of ancient India - are scorned in theory, mutilated in print, and, as consequence, set aside in the interpretation of Vaidik texts; .......when a clique of Sanskritists of this description vapours about giving us the sense of the Veda as it existed at the commencement of Hindu antiquity; ......when I consider that those whose words apparently derive weight and influence from the professional position they hold; ........then I hold that it would be a want of courage and a dereliction of duty, if I did not make a stand against these Saturnalia of Sanskrit Philology.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 05:48

Excellent article on how Anglo-Germans have tried to malign the Hindus and to appropriate Sanskrit and Vedic heritage

By Purohit Bhagavan Dutt
Western Indologists: A Study in Motives

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2012 07:20

In order to understand why the Western perspective of India developed in what is basically a skewed way for Indians it is necessary to see where western scholars got their information from.

Until the Brits came to India almost nothing was known of India except for what was written as second-hand or third hand info recorded by Herodotus in 500 BC and later historians of Alexander. This information I gleaned from the two sources linked below which please read - only a couple of pages but very informative about Herodotus and what he said about India.
Herodotus in Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

India as per Herodotus (Imperial Gazeteer 1909)
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gaze ... 02_307.gif

I mention Herodotus because he is important to this discussion of Darius. Herodotus was a Greek who wrote the History of the Persian as told to him. One of his books has a history of Darius. Note that in Europe all that they knew of ndia was Western people conquering India.

Herodotus said Darius conquered India
Pliny said Alexander conquered India

So in the Western view no one can come out of India because history is fixed in the opposite direction.

Herodotus' history of Darius is considered very important because the names of Darius' father and son were recorded. This turned out to be important in the deciphering of the Behistun inscriptions that had the same message in 3 languages - Old Persian, Akkadian (Babylonian) and Elamite. the Old Persian was deciphered using the names of kings and later Akkadian and Elamite figured out from that translation of Old Persian.

Nothing is known of the actual pronunciation of old Persian. It is pure guesswork. Old Persian is said to have come before Avestan. Avestan was the language of Zoroastrians and is known because it survives in Gujarati script. It is very similar to Sanskrit. If Old Persian preceded Avestan it is highly likely that it was very similar to Sanskrit - if it was not Sanskrit itself.

If we need to verify this we have to go back to the manner in which the Old Persian script was translated by people who knew nothing of Sanskrit and see if those people may have made errors. Indian scholarship will have to expand vastly for that.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 03 Jul 2012 08:46

Shiv wrote:
Indian scholarship will have to expand vastly for that.


Yes, I came to that conclusion too. Very daunting task, but just who is going to push for it, other than people like us?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 03 Jul 2012 09:01

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv wrote:
Indian scholarship will have to expand vastly for that.
Yes, I came to that conclusion too. Very daunting task, but just who is going to push for it, other than people like us?


Inidan scholary work will expand with the economic growth. Just like MKG was financed by many business, current true Indian scholars need similar support which is missing at this point. Rich India will be able settle many old gudges with Western, DIEs and other RNIs running psyops in the literary world.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2012 09:04

Oh flippin heck people - I suspect my hunch is right. Old Persian is Sanskrit alright. It has been badly misinterpreted by the decoders. After all it was deciphered by one Georg Friedrich Grotefend in 1815 and by a Henry Rawlinson in 1830 :eek:

Just look at these passages of the translation and the original words decoded from the Behistun inscription

http://www.livius.org/be-bm/behistun/behistun-t01.html

\ adam \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ vazraka \ xšâyatha \ xšâyathiy

To me, judging from the translation this looks like.

"Aham Daravayus kshayathiya vajraka kshayata kshayatiya"

Aham - "I am"
Daravayus: Daravayus (name)
kshyathiy could be related to the roots "kshaya" and "kshith" which mean "house/race/ruler among other things
vajraa probably refers to a descripton "like vajra" - brilliant/diamond/Indra's lightning

ânâm \ xšâyathiya \ Pârsaiy \ xšâyathiya \ dahyûnâm \ Višt

anam (probably aham) - I am
xšâyathiya \ Pârsaiy : Kshayathiya Parsaiy: ruler of Persia (could this have something to do with Purus?
xšâyathiya - ruler
Dahyunam -= Dahyu+ naam = Named dahyu
I am the ruler of the area/country named "Dahyu" (Dasyu??)

Folks the Behistun Inscription in its Old Persian part is probably just plain Sanskrit.

Behistun Inscription
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2012 09:06

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv wrote:
Indian scholarship will have to expand vastly for that.


Yes, I came to that conclusion too. Very daunting task, but just who is going to push for it, other than people like us?


Arun - it will happen. Already engineering and medicine and commerce and traditional fields are getting crowded. Young people are gradually moving to other areas. People such as us only need to provide the pointers and inspiration.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2012 09:09

No time now. But will get back with more of the Behistun inscription.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 03 Jul 2012 09:20

ramana et al,

Indian sub-continent pushing up [the usual himalayan formation story], and suddenly a tip of a change results a large mass destroyed the flow, or diverted, or smashes the orgin duct.

and eons pass by after drying.. and people migrate... while bhagiratha does the tapas in himalayas [for 1000 years he did!!! wow! .. it took a while for ganges formation].. brahma can't create so, it is all a matter of fromation. ganga refused initially to flow.. struggles to find path for a long time.. and suddenly some matter in himalaya gave away, as lord shiva nudged it.. thus came ganga.

pure facts from stories!.. and even the flow is narrated well, from north to east, upto the ocean ganga following bhagiratha's charriot.

as this happened, sure ganga would have wiped few 1000s of living creatures as well.. so the believe that ganga can take the dead bodies, and still remain pure.

FACTS -> MYTHS, and we need to reverse that.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 03 Jul 2012 09:25

Etymology The word "satrap" has Avestan roots and is similar to the Sanskrit word Kṣatriya क्षत्रिय. The Old Persian xšaθrapāvan ("protector of the province"), from xšaθra ("realm" or "province") and pāvan ("protector"). In Greek, the word was rendered as σατράπης, satrápēs, and was romanized as satrapes, from the Old Persian xšaθrapā(van)). In modern Persian this would have naturally evolved to شهربان (shahrbān). "Sharbān", translated from modern Persian, literally means "town keeper"; (شهر "shahr", meaning "town", بان "bān" meaning "keeper"). The word is likely ultimately derived from ancient Indo-Persian.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 03 Jul 2012 13:50

Jhujar wrote:Inidan scholary work will expand with the economic growth. Just like MKG was financed by many business, current true Indian scholars need similar support which is missing at this point. Rich India will be able settle many old gudges with Western, DIEs and other RNIs running psyops in the literary world.


Indian scholarship might be all Amartya Sens and Wendy's children, and Saint Thomas brought civilization to Dravidstan. The whole point of Rajiv Malhotra's work is the unfounded complacency, the Moron Smriti, that afflicts Hindus, that somehow the right things will happen automagically.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 14:06

A_Gupta ji,

wouldn't want to expand on this in this thread, but it seems the thread, "Are Hindus fit today for Hinduism?" has started taking an increasingly Hindu-bashing tone! The message has become increasingly negative and a vent for self-hate, and I think it is the wrong approach! Perhaps an issue for the "Deracination - From What?" Thread.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 03 Jul 2012 14:11

Poorva Paksha is the key.

We have to have our own model of understanding and interpreting world, itihaas and sometimes our history, if necessary. A Bharatiya model of understanding ancient times, science, geography, geometry, languages and mathematics.

Teaching and learning method should also be our own, developed and devised by us. If required, we will set up our own centre of occidental studies and that will be understood by our own method. Like Purva Paksha...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarka_sastra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyaya

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 14:22

X-Posting some relevant ideas from the "Deracination - From What?" Thread

Carl
Carl wrote:
brihaspati wrote:But these two could be the key to understanding Parasurama. Additionally perhaps the first transition into modern political elite formation/state formation through the contest between "ritual/priesthood/intellectuals" and "warrior/looter/raider". He may actually represent a cult - and a paramapara or school that spanned many generations and perhaps centuries or millenia.

I noticed that certian Persian esoteric schools, carrying over from pre-Islamic into post-Islamic "sufi" times, have very Parshurama-like characteristics. They have always been severely anti-establishment, with contempt for the ruling order in most times, and always quick to support revolution. their written works are full of such an attitude. Their symbol is an axe, and their spiritual masters carry an axe as a sort of sceptre. They are cult-like, and the spiritual master is a sort of king amongst them. They tend to be misogynistic, too, emphasizing a rugged male attitude in society - either as insular celibates who withdraw from family and women, or a chivalrous male code of ethics. Etc, etc. I also wonder whether the "Parshu" in "Parshurama" had anytihng to do with "Paarshava" (Persian) rather than Parashu (axe).


brihaspati
brihaspati wrote:^^^Quite a reasonable speculation. Would encourage you to explore and write here, if possible!


brihaspati
brihaspati wrote:We should learn from the Thaparite technique: construct new speculative narratives over the older interpretations and raise them as questions. Overtime some of them will get woven into the fabric of the narrative.


Carl
Carl wrote:Brihaspati ji,

I have come across scattered indications in many places that kept bringing this speculation back to my mind. I don't have solid information and I would need to even collect my thoughts and build a narrative. But FWIW, here are some leads to begin with.

We know from our traditions that Shri Parshurama was of Bhargava lineage, and after finishing off the kshatriyas he gifted the dominions to Kashyapa brahmins. Both, Bhargava and Kashyapa are lineages that are speculated to be linked to Kashmir and by extension to north Afghanistan and Tajikistan, and further on to the Middle East and W. Asia. Kashyapa is also linked to both, the Devas and the Asuras. The areas of N. Afghanistan and Tajikistan are precisely where the spiritual brotherhoods I mentioned have sprung from, or have deep connections to. In their histories they include Kashmir as part of their heartland. They clearly had pre-Islamic roots, when they were involved with Buddhist-Zoroastrian-Manichaen brotherhoods. Then there is the clearly documented erasure of Buddhism and Zoroastrianism from those areas. Apart from some massacres, large numbers of these Buddhists declared their conversion to Islam, but immediately became the seat of an esoteric "Sufism". Even today in Iranian khorasan, one sees these Moslem communities living a very Buddhist lifestyle, including regular meditation, vegetarianism, and deep regard for harmonizing with nature. Many of them even live in tastefully adapted cave-homes so that their settlements do not jarr with the natural scenery.

Islamist Sheikhs even today themselves admit that the conversion of these Persian Buddhists to Islam was a huge value-addition to the world of Islam as far as the spiritual side of religion was concerned. Nevertheless, having converted, these Sufis were constantly a pain in the musharraf of the established Amir-Ulema order. Constantly criticizing them, berating their lifestyles, making fun of their legalism, the relations between Sufism and the Islamist establishment were always problematic. Ghazali had brokered a sort of political peace, but the contempt of these Sufis was only embellished in sarcastic, double-edged poetry, and it continued after the Turko-Mongol takeover of Islamism. [Note: It is only certain Sufi lines that I refer to, and by no means all "Sufis". In fact, most often when a Sufi line became "established", it developed links with the King-Ulema elites, and then lost many of the Parshurama memes that I am referring to below.]

Apart from the very anti-establishment attitude, these cultish Sufi brotherhoods also believed in the rule of their Spiritual Masters, who had the image of warrior-saints or philosopher-kings. Obviously, this was another reason the Amir/Sultans would be wary of them. At the worst of times, many of these Sufis would be executed for heresy. At other times, kings or rival aspirants to the throne would seek the "blessings" of these cult-leaders who held a reputation of having mystic powers. They themselves boasted that they were the real kingmakers - that they supposedly requested God to make such-and-such a king, though they didn't much care to hold the position themselves, apparently. In a couple of instances, cult-leaders like Abu Sa'id Abel Kheyr claimed that they asked God to make a particularly brutal person the sultan in order to cause a general massacre amongst the ruling class which was split into various vicious factions vying for control. So these were the self-recorded claims of these Sufi masters, and they seem to manifest a Parshurama meme.

Another Parshurama meme, in addition to his general contempt for the kshatriya class, was that after displacing the corrupt and gaining full dominion, he then relinquishes it to Brahmins, and himself retires to perform tapas. This is also found amongst these peculiar Sufi lines. A famous example of this would be Ibrahim Ibn Adham, about whom we have the famous English poem Abou Ben Adem. Adham was king of a province of Afghanistan, and known to be an efficient ruler after cleaning up corruption. He was also known to have spiritual inclinations. As the fable goes, one night he heard some noises on the roof of his palace. Coming out to investigate, he sees a ragged Sufi walking around on the roof. Asked what exactly he thought he was doing, the wanderer replied he was looking for his camel. "Say what? On the roof?". Yes, he says. After all, he heard Adham was looking for God while also playing king, so it wasn't illogical to look for a camel on a roof. Apparently our hero, the king, was plunged in thought. Next day again, the same sufi wanders into court and plays another sarcastic prank. That was it. Adham took some time to tie a few threads up, handle a transfer of power, and then he goes out into the cold Afghan desert and joins this brotherhood, performing many years of penance.

Then there are obvious visually symbolic similarities with the Parshurama figure. The masters who oversaw these strains of Sufism would carry an axe as a sort of sceptre. Even in modern times, we have the Iranian schools of Nematullahi and Shahmaghsoudi sufism which are quite active. Below are their insignia.

Image

Image

Note how, even in modern times, both these schools were close to the Pahlavi Shah and responsible for some of his machinations against the Islamists. Then after the Islamist revolution in Iran, they had to flee the country and are now based mainly in Europe/USA. Even then, there have been several incidents of their khaneqahs and Hosseiniyehs (they adore Hussein, the arch-rebel) were burned and followers brutalized and even killed by Basijis in Iran. They continue their preaching from abroad.

Now I had come across another interesting Iranian artifact where the Parshurama archetype surfaces rather vividly. This is a book called the Abu Muslim Namah, written about the history of the famous Persian general Abu Muslim Khorasani. This person was a general of Persian origin, who led the first major and organized liberal movement against the Umayyad dynasty. He is now counted amongst the Abbasids, but clearly his motivations were Persian nationalism and re-assertion against Arab domination. He had joined forces and won the total support of the remnants of the Zoroastrian elites, though in the end he chose to support Shi'ite power as a new tool of Persian power projection into the ME/W.Asia/NA. Now this work falls into a genre of Persian literature where ethnic abuse, hyperbole and exulting descriptions of violent massacre are used indiscriminately. The chief problem was, of course the Ummayad Sunni rulers, perverted Arab tyrants ruling the goodly, Persians whom God loves most. So according to the epic narrative, there were certain chosen pious and braveheart Persians in different parts of the oppressed world who loved the true Ahl-ul-Bayt (chosen family members of the Prophet, whom the Shi'a venerate - all other Arabs supposedly being hypocrites who couldn't really understand the Message, and even oppressed these particular family members). These bravehearts were pained by the "shit-scattering sermons" of the Sunnis. God in His Mercy appeared to each of these good people in their dreams and gave them each a specific task, and guided them to a common place where they could meet and organize His wonderful plan to commit genocide of the heretical Sunni armies. It turns out that at the center of this fantastic genocidal plan is a miracle weapon - A GIANT AXE. So each of the chosen men is given a task to put together one part of the axe. One fellow chops mighty trees to create the humungous handle from their trunks. Another creates a massive axe-head. Another fellow walks over an entire country and presents himself as the ace polisher of the metal axe-head, who polishes and polishes until its exactly like a mirror, Praise the Lord. Etc. Etc. It is reported from authentic eyewitness sources in the book that with each swing of the axe during the epic battle, tens of thousands of Sunnis were dispatched to hell. All the while, the sultry Arab warrior queen (a real virago) was fighting on two fronts - against the God-appointed Persian rebel force, as well as her own fatal attraction for the Persian axe-wielding hero, who remained completely focussed, disinterested and completely unaware of the sexual tension that is making tents of everyone else's pyjamas.

As we were reading this book, the Persian friends of mine were chuckling, but I was silent because I couldn't help gape at the obvious rip off from Parashurama lila.

In Sufi histories containing biographies of exponents, the same Abu Muslim Khorasani is mentioned. He was apparently a grim man, never caught smiling. He said those who keep smiling without any godly reason are idiots. This mood is also found in sufi centers allied with such strains of sufism. Moreover, at one khaneqah I visited, the reader narrated aloud that Abu Muslim Khorasani declared that sex with one's wife once a year was more than enough. It elicited an angry masculine grunt of approval from the collection of husbands seated there, and spontaneous gasps of protest and pent-up complaint from the wives on the other side of the room. So this misogynistic, rugged male chauvinism also corresponds to some aspects of Parshuram.

It also struck me that in recorded history, Persians have always presented themselves as a God-appointed people who need to defeat the oppressive imperium of other big bad kings (Babylonia, Greek, Roman, Arab, Ottoman, USA) and bring them under their God-given imperium (Zoroastrian, now Shi'a). Moreover, Persia is a prominent locus of the warrior-saint and philosopher-king meme, in all its goodness as well as its aberrations. Even today, their Velayat-e-faqih is unique even within Shi'ism.

These and other memes within the Persian 'Ahuric' sphere made me think that there may be a connection between Parshurama and the Paarshavas (Persians).

On the Indian side, in recent history, one anecdote caught my attention. Among the great acharyas of Vedanta, Madhva was from a the area of India called Parshurama-kshetra. He was also from a particular Brahmin caste that has that Bhargava lineage. He does speak of Parshurama quite a bit and says his philosophy lays the foundations for a return of Parshurama (who is one of the Chiranjeevi). He even said some things about his own brother in this connection. MAdhva is also interesting in repeatedly making a clear distinction between 'good' and 'bad' aspects of "asura". Now, at one point on his journey to Badarikashrama, he is passing through an area which has been newly conquered by a Persian adventurer (India was a hunting ground for Moslems at the time). The Persian prince's patrol arrests Madhva and his disciples while they were crossing a river, because they are suspicious of Madhva's looks - tall, broad-shouldered, atletic and fair, he didn't look like a regular sannyasi, and they suspected he may be a spy in disguise. It is recorded that Madhva had a conversation in Persian (which Madhva supposedly spoke spontaneously) with the prince. the prince was apparently a spiritual seeker also, and said to Madhva, "I have never seen a Hindu monk like yourself." So Madhva explains his teachings to the young prince, who is awestruck and submits himself as a disciple. He supposedly offers Madhva half his kingdom as guru-dakshina, but Madhva declines since he has an appointment to keep with Vyasadeva at Badarikashrama. Now one important thing that Madhva supposedly says to this prince during their conversation is: "Your religion and mine are the same."

there is also no doubt that Sikhism picked up a lot from the Persian Sufi underground.


ramana
ramana wrote:Carl, Persia gets its name for the province of Fars where the imperial idea started.
Fars is not so far from Greater India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fars_Province


Jhujar
Jhujar wrote:So ,Parsuram might be Pars Ram or Fars Ram or V,V.


brihaspati
brihaspati wrote:Persia could also have come from Parshva-desha - the "lateral/side region". Kashmiri folks could be defining the Gandhara-Persia frontieras "side". We know that directional sense of geography over large distances did exist.

Old Persian reconstructed term for axe is "parathu/parasu". The other words used seem to be "c(h)akus" and "tabar". Could have other linkages even with these two.


ManishH
ManishH wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Old Persian reconstructed term for axe is "parathu/parasu". The other words used seem to be "c(h)akus" and "tabar". Could have other linkages even with these two.


B-ji: It is sound method to relate Parsua (Name used in Assyrian inscriptions for Persian lands both north and East) and sanskrit pārśva. Both mean side-region or border.

However 'parathu' is Avestan (spoken in NE Iran), not Old Persian (spoken in Achaemnid empire, modern Fars in SW Iran), where axe is 'isuvā'. AFAIK, none of the Avestan literature even mentions a province like Fars/Paras/Parsuwa/Persia. It's important to note that Old Persian doesn't derive from Avestan.

Carlji - dissenting opinion - Persia is unrelated to axe. It's related to a generic name for 'border region'. A good summary of origins of the name is found in "The Cambridge History of Iran - vol ii'

Why does the Achaemnid empire name their realm after axe, yet have a different word for axe ? Apparent phonetic similarity counts for nothing in historical linguistics.


Carl
Carl wrote:ManishH ji,

Yes I agree. I was just wondering whether the name parshurAma had a double derivation - from parashu (axe) as well as pArshava.

Another thing I wonder about is that the name Raam and its derivatives like Shahram (King Ram), Ramin, etc are very popular Persian names even today.

Also, you said Old Persian is not derived from Avestan. Could you explain?

I got some references: 'How to Kill a Dragon' is a book that compares wide-ranging stories from India, Iran and Europe. Mithra and Varuna is another one with the same approach. Vikandor also has a short book on this topic, He compares the mythological Rostam (which was the prototype for Abu-Muslim) and Vedic Indra.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 15:56

It is actually tempting to say that Sri Parshurama could have been a Parshava Rama, a Persian, especially considering that he was a Bhrigu, but the legend says he lived around Central India, and not in Punjab or Afghanistan though he did move around.

Also the Bhrigus were not exclusively the priests of ParSus/ParSavas.

But if we wish to pull in the Iranians, we would have to come up with figures and events in our Itihaas they could identify with racially and positively.

However it does not mean Sri Parshurama should not be studied more from this angle.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby brihaspati » 03 Jul 2012 19:29

RajeshA ji,
since you brought the Parshava issue back - now that I think over it again, especially ManishH ji's points, It is not entirely impossible to consider that "Parshava" could have been adopted by the Achaemenids deliberately. It would have combined an ancient cultural place-name connotation together with the memory of association of "axe" - again as an ancient cultural icon/heritage. In such cases, the word-meaning would be seen as specially symbolic and does not necessarily have to be the prevalent word for the same symbolic object. [Even if the commonly used words for axe is actually different - at this period].

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 20:22

Books, one can read online

Sympathetic writers with focus on Vedic Maths
Believe in OIT
Give Belarusian roots in India

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Publication Date: 2005
Key to the Vedas (Part 1): Integral Hermeneutics
Authors
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...part-time lecturer in Vedic Hermeneutics,
...Belarusian State University,
...Minsk, Belarus

Nathalia Mikhailov,
...lecturer in math.,
...Belarusian State Agricultural Academy,
...Gorki, Belarus

Availability

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby brihaspati » 03 Jul 2012 20:32

I find it strange, that Witzelians rarely seem to mention Arnold's critique of the whole sequence from Grassmann to Oldenburg. Witzelians jump straight from Oldenburg to Witzel's 1995 thesis on the so-called "unchallengeable" "internal-structural" proof of time-ordering within RV.

I am tempted to mention the 1897 article by Arnold, "Sketch of the Historical Grammar of the Rig and Atharva Vedas" [by Edward Vernon Arnold], Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 18 (1897), pp. 203-350+352-353.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 03 Jul 2012 20:55

i think we also need to look at pre flood history in much more depth. it is increasingly clear that significant civilisational progress had been made in a number of places along the nile-euphrates-saraswati axis with all sorts of remains turning up with 'infeasible dates'

today's bbc site has a nice article on 'doggerland' - a region now mostly under the north sea and atlantic. oil exploration in the region has turned up quite a large amount of artefacts from the sea bed - fossils of ice age animals, pollen remnants, and even neanderthal and other humanoid bone fragments. the region is believed to have submerged between 18k to 5k years ago. clearly in the latter period, there was already much happening in india and the major-river-axis

our myths and legends probably describe the history of the world before the ice caps melted and the glaciers retreated

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 03 Jul 2012 21:06

perhaps our nuke subs can take up dual job.. earth penetrating radars mounted to scan sub-surface structures could be taken up along the lines of our ocean shelves. also renders operational readiness for triad preparations.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jul 2012 21:16

brihaspati garu,

in this case, I am a votary of Talageri's model of seeing a common Indo-Iranian past in the Rig Veda and the subsequent Puru-Anu split with the Anava then moving North-West into Afghanistan and further.

Indians and Iranians shared common religion and common language. Zarathustra changed the religion and the language evolved differently.

ParSus were an Anu subtribe and one of the dominant ones. It is logical and in fact expected, that the Achaemenids would be ParSus from the Rig Veda even though they had in the meantime adopted the Zoroastrian creed.

If we look at the Mandala internal chronology as presented by Talageri, Jamadagni seem to the seer after whom, more and more input from the Bhrigus became available in the Rig Veda. Jamadgni is the nephew of Vishwamitra, who used to be the priest of the Purus before the Battle of the Ten Kings. So the Bhrigus had already started moving East towards the Purus.

Parshurama was the youngest son of the Jamadagni, who was incensed that the Haihayas Emperor Arjuna Kartavirya had killed his father and then goes on a vicious mission of revenge against the Haihayas, who were living in Central India.

But during the time of Jamadagni, it could well be that there was a period of peace between Anus and Purus, and Jamadagni was respected by both. It could well be that the ParSus tribe of the Anus and Parshurama had close contacts, and Parshu in Parshurama could well originate from the ParSus (Persians). But the battleaxe could just as well have been one of their symbols.

Anyway it is just speculation on my part.


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