Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29th May 2012

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 06 Jul 2012 00:20

The WKKs on Indian side get slapped by the Paki guests on the program. WKKs wanted to encourage Pakistan to act on terrorism while keeping the talks on, Paki guests said India should stop milking 26/11 and move on to better the ties between the two countries.

India confronts Pak on terror - Islamabad in denial? | NDTV Video

This is the impotency of the Indian State and its various interlocutors that I keep talking about.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 06 Jul 2012 00:27

SBajwa wrote:Sir ji!!
Let me just remind everybody that

1. Telephone was created by Alexandar Graham Bell in 1885 and he granted the Bell System (original name of telephone) to a company called AT&T., AT&T had a monopoly over phone for almost 100 years.

2. AT&T was broken up into 19 different companies due to monopoly and its patents were declared public, since then we have had Internet, Personal Computer, Cell Phone and hundreds other innovations coming out of the breakup of AT&T.

And this very internet over which we argue was created by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) which is part of Department of Defense of USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA

[OT]
Thus, thanks to the creation of the Interwebs it is, therefore, possible to hold a mirror easily each time someone shows signs of slipping into delusion of grandeur

Shouldn't DARPA be eternally grateful to the rest of the world for making the Internet what it is today? How else would it have expanded so far & wide if the rest of the world hadn't adopted it. Quite like how the Brtis need to be grateful to India for speaking their language, thus making up the numbers to give it the title of the most widely spoken language - quite a bandied statement here

P.S: Please Google Minitel
[/OT]

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 06 Jul 2012 01:40

ArunK ji

I saw your reply to abhishek ji, so see that parts of my post you had already responded.
Will mention only slight differences of opinions as I see it, only to close the loop.
regards

1.

Nope - Pakistan did not exist during WW-II. But people who served in the British Indian Army went on to become heads of state in Pakistan. Ayub Khan serverd with distinction on the Burma front. Yahya Khan served in North Africa, Middle East, and Mediterranean theatres of the war

By virtue of Ayub and Yahya being in the BIA, and PA gets all the credit to the point "Pakistan was a full fledged ally through all this", that is a big jump.

I am really wondering that love is coming from in the fisrt statement.

Ayub & Yahya did not "went on to become heads of state", they both went to become military dictators of Pakistan.

2. Yugoslavia
You are referring to the part where it was UN Peacekeeping force not a US led COW.

UNPROFOR

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missi ... prof_b.htm

COUNTRY, POLICE, TROOPS, OBSERVERS
Pakistan, 19, 3,017, 34
TOTAL, 727, 38,130, 680

That comes to about 8% not 20%, and it really didn't end till Clinton's air war in Kosovo. I don't remember PAF or TSPA to be part of it.

5. Pakistan helped out massively in Afghanistan which was happenning at the same time.

But Sir, for the year 2002 there was no "at the same time", so which second front was Pakistan relieving at that time. Pakistan did what it did because it did 2-U turns - one openly one not so openly.

6. 90% of AQ operatives handed over by TSP is also needs to be looked at.

Guantanamo detainees say Arabs, Muslims sold for U.S. bounties

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005 ... ties_x.htm

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — They fed them well. The Pakistani tribesmen slaughtered a sheep in honor of their guests, Arabs and Chinese Muslims famished from fleeing U.S. bombing in the Afghan mountains. But their hosts had ulterior motives: to sell them to the Americans, said the men who are now prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

Bounties ranged from $3,000 to $25,000, the detainees testified during military tribunals, according to transcripts the U.S. government gave The Associated Press to comply with a Freedom of Information lawsuit.

...

Pakistan has handed hundreds of suspects to the Americans, but Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed told the AP, "No one has taken any money."

The U.S. departments of Defense, Justice and State and the Central Intelligence Agency also said they were unaware of bounty payments being made for random prisoners.

The U.S. Rewards for Justice program pays only for information that leads to the capture of suspected terrorists identified by name, said Steve Pike, a State Department spokesman. Some $57 million has been paid under the program, according to its Web site.

It offers rewards up to $25 million for information leading to the capture of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

But a wide variety of detainees at the U.S. lockup at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, alleged they were sold into capture. Their names and other identifying information were blacked out in the transcripts from the tribunals, which were held to determine whether prisoners were correctly classified as enemy combatants.

One detainee who said he was an Afghan refugee in Pakistan accused the country's intelligence service of trumping up evidence against him to get bounty money from the U.S.

"When I was in jail, they said I needed to pay them money and if I didn't pay them, they'd make up wrong accusations about me and sell me to the Americans and I'd definitely go to Cuba," he told the tribunal. "After that I was held for two months and 20 days in their detention, so they could make wrong accusations about me and my (censored), so they could sell us to you."

Another prisoner said he was on his way to Germany in 2001 when he was captured and sold for "a briefcase full of money" then flown to Afghanistan before being sent to Guantanamo.

"It's obvious. They knew Americans were looking for Arabs, so they captured Arabs and sold them — just like someone catches a fish and sells it," he said. The detainee said he was seized by "mafia" operatives somewhere in Europe and sold to Americans because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time — an Arab in a foreign country.

A detainee who said he was a Saudi businessman claimed, "The Pakistani police sold me for money to the Americans."

"This was part of a roundup of all foreigners and Arabs in that area," of Pakistan near the Afghan border, he said, telling the tribunal he went to Pakistan in November 2001 to help Afghan refugees.

The military-appointed representative for one detainee — who said he was a Taliban fighter — said the prisoner told him he and his fellow fighters "were tricked into surrendering to Rashid Dostum's forces. Their agreement was that they would give up their arms and return home. But Dostum's forces sold them for money to the U.S."

Several detainees who appeared to be ethnic Chinese Muslims — known as Uighurs — described being betrayed by Pakistani tribesmen along with about 100 Arabs.

They said they went to Afghanistan for military training to fight for independence from China. When U.S. warplanes started bombing near their camp, they fled into the mountains near Tora Bora and hid for weeks, starving.

One detainee said they finally followed a group of Arabs, apparently fighters, being guided by an Afghan to the Pakistani border.

"We crossed into Pakistan and there were tribal people there, and they took us to their houses and they killed a sheep and cooked the meat and we ate," he said.

That night, they were taken to a mosque, where about 100 Arabs also sheltered. After being fed bread and tea, they were told to leave in groups of 10, taken to a truck, and driven to a Pakistani prison. From there, they were handed to Americans and flown to Guantanamo.

"When we went to Pakistan the local people treated us like brothers and gave us good food and meat," said another detainee. But soon, he said, they were in prison in Pakistan where "we heard they sold us to the Pakistani authorities for $5,000 per person."

There have been reports of Arabs being sold to the Americans after the U.S.-led offensive in Afghanistan, but the testimonies offer the most detail from prisoners themselves.

In March 2002, the AP reported that Afghan intelligence offered rewards for the capture of al-Qaeda fighters — the day after a five-hour meeting with U.S. Special Forces. Intelligence officers refused to say if the two events were linked and if the United States was paying the offered reward of 150 million Afghanis, then equivalent to $4,000 a head.

That day, leaflets and loudspeaker announcements promised "the big prize" to those who turned in al-Qaeda fighters.

Said one leaflet: "You can receive millions of dollars. ... This is enough to take care of your family, your village, your tribe for the rest of your life — pay for livestock and doctors and school books and housing for all your people."

Helicopters broadcast similar announcements over the Afghan mountains, enticing people to "Hand over the Arabs and feed your families for a lifetime," said Najeeb al-Nauimi, a former Qatar justice minister and leader of a group of Arab lawyers representing nearly 100 detainees.

Al-Nauimi said a consortium of wealthy Arabs, including Saudis, told him they also bought back fellow citizens who had been captured by Pakistanis.

Khalid al-Odha, who started a group fighting to free 12 Kuwaiti detainees, said his imprisoned son, Fawzi, wrote him a letter from Guantanamo Bay about Kuwaitis being sold to the Americans in Afghanistan.

One Kuwaiti who was released, 26-year-old Nasser al-Mutairi, told al-Odha that interrogators said Dostum's forces sold them to the Pakistanis for $5,000 each, and the Pakistanis in turn sold them to the Americans.

"I also heard that Saudis were sold to the Saudi government by the Pakistanis," al-Odha said. "If I had known that, I would have gone and bought my son back."

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jul 2012 02:04

Pakis are the new Arap slave traders.

They out Arap, the Arabs.*

They make money every which way.

In the early pre-modern era the Arab slave traders used to dominate the slave trade.

ArunK · Post by **ArunK** » 06 Jul 2012 03:29

Listen to Hina Rabbani Khar explain the GLOC opening.

http://www.sochtapakistan.com/programmevideos.asp

Listen to Najam Sethi respond on his show

http://www.zemtv.com/2012/07/05/aapas-k ... july-2012/

Please note all programs are in Urdu + some sprinkling of English

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Jul 2012 03:58

RamaY wrote:
Acharya wrote: Actually this is important. We dont want another third country to come between India and US. Period.

So US media and US establishment should not mention Pakistan during India US discussion. This is high priority.
Even during Aspen discussion they have to bring India and Pak comparision even when it is a US interest discussion.

For Americans
Get India out of Pakistan discussion. Get Pakistan out of India discussion.
I have a slightly different perspective on this. I too am a US citizen.

I do not think it is enough for USA to dehyphanate India and Pakistan. By supporting Pakistan, USA is indirectly hurting India. So just disconnecting India and Pakistan in discussions while doing whatever USA can to support and encourage Pakistani behavior is not acceptable. As a Indian-American, I always see the net benefits to this relationship. I do not consider an annual trade of $50B (with a profit margin of $7.5B) is no way equal to USA's $5B annual support + the loss of Indian lives.

As long as USA funds and supports the terrorist state of Pakistan, India cannot consider USA as a genuine friend. USA cannot use "national interests" excuse to dominate other nations and hurt my mother land India.

If my adopted country, USA, has some national interests that require it to support terrorism and terrorist nations like Pakistan, I would want USA to review and correct those national interests, because they are not in the interests of its citizenry like me.

Perhaps someone can explain what national interests of USA that are so important that USA need to support terrorism and TSP.

I have not posted the whole thing yet. I want the readers to read it and absorb everything discussed here.
We have to discuss the OIL lobby, KSA lobby and PRC lobby which is now reaching the India and Indian interest inside US OF AMERICA. Pakistan lobby is working under these lobby to increase their effectiveness.

Indian interest is out of the bounds of all the lobby in US and DC.
I will take it up later.

ArunK · Post by **ArunK** » 06 Jul 2012 04:38

Lot of tidbits collected from Interviews of Hina Rabbani Kahr and Najam Sethi

* The US was ready to offer an "Unconditional" apology to Pakistan in Feb. They were asked to wait for Pakistan9i parliament to ask for it and then the US give it so as to appear to the people of Pakistan that the US shows respect to the Pakistani parliament. The US actually agreed to this too

* While they were waiting for the Pakistani Parliament, in March a US soldier went berserk in Afghanistan and massacred 17 civilians and the US -- Obama specifically -- offered an unconditional apology to Afghanistan. At this point the republicans started to attack Obama on how many apologies was he palnning to give to countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan?

* In April, the Pakistan parliment finally finished its review of the US-Pakistan relationship and asked the US to tender an unconditional apology for teh Salala incident. Of course, the GLOC had been closed since Nov 11. The US hardened its stance on the apology to Pakistan and refused.

* Ms Khar now states that -- An apology is basically meaningless. What they wanted was for the US to reapect Pakistan's "Red Lines". She did not really specify what those lines were. Apperantly the US had crossed the Red Lines many times in the past and Salala was the "straw that broke the camel's back"

* When asked why they did not re-negotiate the rate per truck. she said even though the price was debated at the junior level, it never made the agenda at the senior level.

* Hina Rabbani Kahar says that the release of Abu Jundal had no effect on the decision to open the GLOC. Najam Sethi says It absolutely did.

There seems to be a tremendous backlash against the Zardari governament. The next few days will be interesting.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 06:23

vnmshyam wrote: What is it that you don't agree with in ArunK's statement? When I read it, it comes across as making sense and do not see anything remotely false ( at least the part that was quoted ). Do you think he is being patronizing?

This is at least the 6th or 7th time on BRF and Indian has informed us on the forum that we need to use lobbying like Israel or Pakistan. That is meaningless tripe when it comes to changing US policy conducted in "US interest". US interest is in keeping the murderous Pakistani army alive and healthy. Lobbying in the corridors of US power is not going to change US interests. It may change a few legislations here and there, but US legislations that are inconvenient to US interests are promptly sidelined by lies, Presidential lies/waivers if need be, as was done in the case of nuclear arms development in Pakistan.

The US way of going about things legally inside the US is by lobbying. But the US cheerfully breaks or bends laws when it comes to matters of overriding national interest. When US national interest is in conflict with Indian national interests over Pakistan, lobbying is a joke where the US lobbying firms make money while Indian and Pakistani diplomats pay off different sets of lobbying firms to tilt the same legislation in opposite directions. And the money used by Pakis is merely recycled aid money - basically US taxpayers money paid to Pakistan to be paid back to US lobbying firms or arms companies or wherever the US wants its aid money to be directed to via Pakistan.

Lobbying is portrayed as a "fair, just and legal" way of doing things in America over an issue that is hardly fair and just to India. It's like Iran and NoKo lobbying to get a better name in Washington. I think its just a naive suggestion by people who have great faith in the US system. That US system is fair to Americans and is designed to uphold American interests foremost. Not for India or other assorted unsavoury foreign interests.

The reason why you don't find an oil rich Iran using much lobbying in Washington is because by allowing lobbying by foreign interests the US tells foreign nations "You are allowed to use our laws to help us make up our minds in our parliament. But we reserve the right to bend our own laws and break your laws when it suits us". Lobbying is a form of handing your own national interests for a decision to be made about them by US lawmakers along with a tidy sum of money. And this is usually covered by the excuse "Oh the US is a superpower. It is allowed to do that. You lost fair and square when your lobbying failed. You better accept it and learn live with it" That is a phenomenally stupid way of handling Indian interests.

No. The way to bend US interests, when they are against Indian interests is NOT via lobbying. You don't hand over Indian core interests for a decision by American legislators and accept it if you lose. That is slavery on top of stupidity.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Jul 2012 06:51

Israel and Pakistan are client states who receive billions of dollars every year and hence need to keep a lobby presence in DC.

India is not a client state and does not need favor except that Indian interest is not sub servient to US interest or other lobby groups.

India needs a good PR lobby which keeps up the image of India for the people of USA and also makes sure that the global pwoer media of US does not have any anti India view and image

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Jul 2012 07:04

Pakistan Expected To Receive US$ 2.5 Billion From The US

The denouement to the Salala incident certainly comes as a complete antithesis of what the Ra Ra US of A brigade aka “MUTU” folk on this forum will have us believe by pushing the line that American actions represent emulation worthy pugnacity even as India’s actions are castigated for pusillanimity.

The Dhimmi like Jaziya paying US action vis a vis the Islamic Republic of Pakistan regards the Salala incident is certainly throwing a life line to the floundering economy of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Pakistan’s total debt rose by 19.7pc in one year

SBP's reserves fall by $4 billion in fiscal year 2012

saip · Post by **saip** » 06 Jul 2012 07:16

Is there a transit fee or isnt there on NATO containers? So Pakis gave up transit fee when Ms Clinton said 'sorry'?

No transit fee as first Nato trucks cross Chaman border

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 06 Jul 2012 07:24

saip wrote:Is there a transit fee or isnt there on NATO containers? So Pakis gave up transit fee when Ms Clinton said 'sorry'?

No transit fee as first Nato trucks cross Chaman border

According to the New York Times, the rate didn't budge from $250, but certainly not free.

Clinton’s ‘Sorry’ to Pakistan Ends Barrier to NATO

In the end, Pakistan agreed to keep the fee at the current rate, $250. In return, the administration will ask Congress to reimburse Pakistan about $1.2 billion for costs incurred by 150,000 Pakistani troops carrying out counterinsurgency operations along the border with Afghanistan, a senior American official said.

Actually, now that I read your article which also acknowledges the $250, perhaps the US also negotiated a payment/charity free period.

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Jul 2012 07:25

arun wrote:A miniscule minority in the US are seeing that the Dhimmi like Jaziya paying US action vis a vis the Islamic Republic of Pakistan regards the Salala incident is an abject surrender:

Secretary Clinton's apology to Pakistan is a slap in the face

Another of the miniscule minority in the US who is seeing that the Dhimmi like Jaziya paying US action vis a vis the Islamic Republic of Pakistan regards the Salala incident is an abject surrender by the US.

For a democracy, the US certainly has a very tame mainstream media that bends over backwards when it comes to toeing the Administration line on foreign policy issues

:

Obama To Pakistan: So Sorry For Protecting Our Troops

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 07:28

"No transit fee" could be a way of claiming that the Pakistan army is not a slave of the US - which is what the Taliban are (rightly) accusing the army of being. The Pakistani establishment (army_RAPE) are pushing the story that the US has repented and regretted its actions (it has not) and the US has apologized (it has) and that the US is begging Pakistan to allow the trucks through (true) and Pakistan is allowing them though for free knowing that they now control the US (only partially true).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 07:46

Here is what Clinton said

"We are sorry for the losses suffered by the Pakistani military," Clinton said in a statement.

She said that during the phone call, she "once again reiterated our deepest regrets for the tragic incident" last November, and "I offered our sincere condolences to the families of the Pakistani soldiers who lost their lives."

1. Clinton has definitely apologised to Pakistan
2. She has not specified that it is for the Salala incident

This is being spun as a face saving victory for both sides.

Pakistan gets its apology from the US Secretary of State, no less. Pakistan will get its money and godknows what else that is going to bite India's ass over the next decade. US gets its transit that it needs for withdrawal.

Pakistan has the US by the balls alright. 11 years after 9-11, Osama and radical Islam are cocking a snook at the US and laughing. When I write such things people imagine that I am gloating at the US's plight and that I am mistaken because the US has great strength. The reason I insist on saying such things is to point out that too much faith is being put in the USs ability to fight radical Islam. The US is made up of weak, greedy, lying leaders. Obama has been better than Bush in my view, but the US lacks the power to do anything but accept that radical Islam has scored one over the US. To me that is not a problem, but as long as Americans do not see what is happening and as long as people imagine that losing=winning as far as USA is concerned, the USA will continue to arm radical Islam to India's detriment. The USA is losing. Not winning. And it is paying radical Islam as it loses. And too many people are cheering and imagining that the US is winning or is about to win.

ArunK · Post by **ArunK** » 06 Jul 2012 07:56

I just heard the Mullah crowd -- Mullah Diesel & JeI -- thundering that they would block the US/NATO trucks. This game seems to have just started. Imran Khan is also unhappy as is Nawaz Sharif. But that is to be expected. Interesting days ahead.

The other curious thing is Mushy proclaimed that everyone was begging the Army to come save the country. But the story from Pakistan is that nobody is agreeing with Mushy and the seething contempt they have for him is quite amusing to see.

My question is this why is the UK spending so much money hosting him and providing him with all the security?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 07:59

Rhetorical question:

When Sunnis attack Shias, or Sufis or Ahmedis in Pakistan, Indians recall how every one of these groups be they Sunni, Shia, Sufi or Ahmedi have expressed deep hatred of India before and after partition. This has been pointed out without dispute time and again on these forums. But tell me people, when the Taliban attack the Pakistani army and establishment why do we worry that the Taliban are worse than the Pakistan army and that we prefer the latter over the former?

Are we sure we have thought this thing through as a group?

ArunK · Post by **ArunK** » 06 Jul 2012 08:00

^^^ A distinction is being made between a "Strong" and "Weak" apology. They are all calling Hillary Clinton's apology "weak". Also, Obama has stayed completely out of this. A big deal is also being made about that.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jul 2012 08:18

ArunK, Thanks for the excerpts from the videos.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Jul 2012 08:21

What happened to the demands that the Parliamentary Committee so comprehensively set forth in its review of US-TSP relations ?

Unconditional & unqualified apology
No drone strike
50%of NATO/ISAF containers to be handled by Pakistan Railways (which has no locomotives to haul anyway)
All new agreements must be vetted by the Parliamentary Committee
Greater market access for 'Made in Pakistan' products (such as terrorism)
No intel operatives on Pakistani soil
US permission for IP gas pipeline

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 06 Jul 2012 08:29

^^ArunK
Absolutely right! What a fall for the mighty US of A! A small two timing criminal of a country has made the super power fall to its knees. People can always justify it as a tactical or a "chankiyan" retreat by the super power, but to what ends? To salvage a few billion dollars? It will certainly hurt the troop morale. But who knows, the troops may be shielded from this news. I hope it hurts where it should in the powercenters of DC. I hope they remember what their dear Munna made them do in front of the whole wide world.

Now lets wait for uncle to reward its Munna with more F16s, more BVRs, more P-3Cs, and more money etc... followed by a chorus of people screaming how uncle is all powerful in the world.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 06 Jul 2012 08:32

This is an excellent naamakarana for MKB/BKM; For the benefit of non-South Indians, The highlighted word can roughly be translated as "Morarji Kola" Bhandarakumar.

Rangudu wrote:As expected, B.K.Moothrakumar sees a glorious victory for TSPA and Kiyanahi in this US non-apology

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 08:43

krithivas wrote:This is an excellent naamakarana for MKB/BKM; For the benefit of non-South Indians, The highlighted word can roughly be translated as "Morarji Kola" Bhandarakumar.
Rangudu wrote:As expected, B.K.Moothrakumar sees a glorious victory for TSPA and Kiyanahi in this US non-apology

Saar "moothram" is Sanskrit for Urine and the modern Hindi version of urination is "moothra visarjan" (pukka sanskrit)

ArunK · Post by **ArunK** » 06 Jul 2012 08:45

Lobbying need not be as complicated as Shiv is making it out to be. It could be as simple as employing a firm that has "cultivated" contacts on the Hill who will push your agenda for you in many ways. For instance, get you invited to social events like concerts, plays, lectures and group discussions and introduce you to people who "handle" the the movers and shakers as well as the movers and shakers themselves. The idea is to build networks. Doing it on your own is bloody hard. If you don't do it, you will lose out big time.

The India caucus in the house of representatives had a massive role to play in the passage of Civilian Nuclear Deal. Building, expanding and maintaining a network like that requires help.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 08:50

US choices with regard to Pakistan are prey to the Bush-Musharraf agreement where Musharraf promised Bush to renew the old Zia-Reagan alliance on the same terms of payment. But The US foreign service and CIA had not understood what happened to the Pakistan army between Zia and Musharraf.

What the US has failed to understand is that Zia was a radical Islamist who encouraged Islamists to help the US by creating the Taliban. The Taliban were always allies of Pakistan. Bush and his advisors were truly stupid. They thought that American money and the still loudly proclaimed (but worthless) ability to bomb Pakistan to the stone age would scare Islamists into becoming secular followers of the US.

And the delusion continued as American "experts" like Stephen Cohen wrote and advised the US government that the Pakistan army was secular. The fact that many actually believe that on this forum is a failure of BRF and success of US media delusion driven misinformation.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 08:53

ArunK wrote:Lobbying need not be as complicated as Shiv is making it out to be. It could be as simple as employing a firm that has "cultivated" contacts on the Hill who will push your agenda for you in many ways. For instance, get you invited to social events like concerts, plays, lectures and group discussions and introduce you to people who "handle" the the movers and shakers as well as the movers and shakers themselves. The idea is to build networks. Doing it on your own is bloody hard. If you don't do it, you will lose out big time.

The India caucus in the house of representatives had a massive role to play in the passage of Civilian Nuclear Deal. Building, expanding and maintaining a network like that requires help.

Hopefully, India will never be so stupid as to put its core national interests up for debate and decision by US legislators in the US Congress while relying on paid third party lobbies to push Indian national interests.

ArunK · Post by **ArunK** » 06 Jul 2012 08:55

ramana wrote:ArunK, Thanks for the excerpts from the videos.

Oh, one more thing from Hina Rabbani Khar's video that I thought was interesting.

* She specifically mentioned that the GLOC closure would not have hurt the US in the long run. They were already preparing to use the Northern Distribution Network for everything regardless of the exorbitant cost. It was NATO that was getting squeezed. She mentioned there were 50 odd countries that included, Turkey, Malaysia, UAE that were getting effected by the GLOC closure. Pakistan does not want to piss off those countries.

* She also said that the German Foreign Minister has called her just before the interview to thank her for opening the GLOC.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 06 Jul 2012 08:56

I wanted to highlight the Pakistan's help in finding taliban.
From a few years ago. It is the funniest one I have come across to date.

Last Updated: Wednesday, 9 June, 2004, 10:59 GMT 11:59 UK

Sounding the drum for al-Qaeda hunt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3789919.stm

It is early morning and a man in his early thirties is beating a beautifully decorated drum in an open field in Wana, main town of Pakistan's South Waziristan tribal region.

He is playing the drum as loud as possible. The intention is to let people know proceedings have begun.

Soon men of all ages with guns hanging from their shoulders start gathering around him.

A few of the young lose control and start dancing to the drums.

The occasion looks festive, but it definitely is not.

This is the gathering of the traditional militia called the Lashkar, made up of volunteers in the rugged, semi-autonomous South Waziristan region.

Warrior race

Soon these tribesmen will leave on a hunt for al-Qaeda militants hiding in their area, close to the border with Afghanistan.

The tradition of beating drums is as old as the Pathan race that lives in this part of the world.

The drum is known locally as the "dhol" and in tribal tradition its beating announces a danger or emergency.

The Pathans in this area are considered a warrior race, so the Lashkar is an inseparable part of their life.

Lashkar is a Pashto language word meaning a group of men raised to fight a war against a common enemy.

The term can be applied to both a dozen men going to a nearby village to exact revenge or to the thousands who poured into the Kashmir valley in 1947-48 to attempt to wrest it from Indian control.

Historians say the drum became an integral part of the Lashkar as a tool of communication.

"In the absence of modern means of communication it is used to gather people and declare war but also as a means of entertainment for volunteers," says Hazrat Khan, a tribal writer from the Mohmand tribal region.

"It is also useful in raising the soldiers' morale to make them fight better."

Surprise tactic

A 4,000-strong Lashkar has for the past few days been searching for al-Qaeda suspects in South Waziristan's remote Shakai area.

They have yet to catch any.

Much to the dislike of US forces in neighbouring Afghanistan, the Pakistani government has set two conditions for the tribesmen to clear their area of al-Qaeda suspects - either arrest them or make them leave the area.

The problem is that the al-Qaeda and Taleban militants enjoy a good deal of tribal support.

Consequently, some argue that it seems odd to use loud drums to lead a Lashkar for a surprise raid on al-Qaeda suspects.

An expert on tribal traditions, Raj Wali Khattak, says: "It's not clear why they are using the drums in these searches.

"No doubt it is a tradition but now politics have also crept in. Maybe the tribesmen don't want to arrest the militants. Their policy might be only to let them clear the area."

But a tribal elder, who preferred not to be named, defended the use of the drums, saying they were a long-standing tradition.

"A Lashkar without dhol is incomplete. In the present circumstances, it's even more necessary. Making 4,000 people gather and then conducting them is not an easy task in our under-developed areas."

This is how suckers fought GWOT.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 09:04

ManuT wrote:

"A Lashkar without dhol is incomplete. In the present circumstances, it's even more necessary. Making 4,000 people gather and then conducting them is not an easy task in our under-developed areas."[/b]

This is how suckers fought GWOT.

And there were other supersuckers who paid them for this.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Jul 2012 09:06

^^ And there are others who still believe that Pakis did a good job.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 09:09

abhishek_sharma wrote:^^ And there are others who still believe that Pakis did a good job.

Oh they did a good job all right. They did well for themselves.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Jul 2012 09:29

Krishna to visit Pakistan in September: Foreign secretaries seek end to hostile propaganda
How is he gonna hold for so long and not visist
Jew Edna Qvi

Among important decisions arrived at between India’s Ranjan Mathai and Pakistan’s Jalil Abbas Jilani after a comprehensive review of the entire gamut of relations over two days of delegation-level talks is a proposed September visit to Islamabad by Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna.Couched in the stack of nuanced paragraphs of a joint statement was also an earnest appeal to media on both sides to end their mutually hostile propaganda. A joint statement and a joint press conference reflected heightened trust and confidence between the two officials.However, the near obsessive media focus on terrorism to the exclusion of what might be happening in turbulent Kashmir, or in the daily tragedies of the routinely imprisoned fishermen and for that matter what goes on a daily basis in the minds of men handling nuclear tipped missiles probably prompted the two to seek greater exchanges between journalists.
Mr Mathai opened the press conference. He said the discussions covered peace and security, including confidence-building measures, Jammu and Kashmir and the promotion of friendly exchanges. “We have also taken stock of the current state of our bilateral relations and reviewed progress in the various secretary-level meetings held on different issues in the second round of our resumed dialogue.”While they might not agree on all issues, they did agree that relations between the two countries had to be normalised, Mr Mathai said.“There is a determination on both sides to take forward our dialogue with an open mind and a constructive spirit.”On Jammu and Kashmir they agreed to continue discussions in a purposeful and forward looking manner with a view to finding a peaceful solution “by narrowing divergences and building convergences.”This is perhaps where Mr Krishna will step in with his Pakistani counterpart.Before he was bombarded with their pet topic by the Indian media, Mr Jilani too was sanguine about the future. “Pakistan seeks friendly, cooperative and good neighbourly relations with India. We must make sincere and serious efforts towards building mutual trust applying political will in resolving all outstanding issues through peaceful means, and continue to work for promotion of peace, harmony and cooperation.”Asked about the arrest of Abu Jundal and the Indian home ministry’s allegations about Pakistan’s officials being involved in the Mumbai carnage, Mr Mathai offered a measured reply.He emphasised that terrorism was the biggest threat to peace and security in the region, and that bringing the guilty to justice in the Mumbai terror attacks would be the biggest confidence-building measure of all. The arrest and the ongoing interrogation of Abu Jundal has now added urgency to this matter.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 06 Jul 2012 09:32

A tweet:
Vikram Sood ‏@Vikram_Sood
There were many who took comfort in deteriorating US Pak relations.This is periodic noora kushti. US will never break with Pak. Wrote abt it

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 06 Jul 2012 10:20

from TFT

The civil-military leadership of Pakistan has taken nine months to settle issues with the US arising out of the Salala incident last November that could have been better resolved in nine days. As a result, Pakistan's international isolation has grown, its economy has foundered and the domestic credibility of the civil and military leadership has been eroded. There will be adverse short and long term consequences of this gross policy miscalculation. Consider.

Seven months months ago, in exchange for reopening the NATO supply lines, the US was ready to "apologise", pay compensation, give "assurances" that Salala would not be repeated, respect Pakistan's "sovereignty" and release over US$2 billion in Coalition Support/Kerry Lugar funds. But we said no, we wanted much more - an end to drone strikes, twenty times the current transit fee, no military hardware in NATO trucks, reduction in CIA footprint, etc. Indeed, after the military cunningly passed the buck to the Zardari government three months later, Senator Raza Rabbani's bipartisan parliamentary committee deliberated for another three months to churn out a list of 35 demands which COAS General Ashfaq Kayani and President Asif Zardari reduced to half a dozen before signing on the dotted line in the next three months. And what did we get from the US?

We didn't get an "apology" from President Obama like the Afghans did earlier. Instead, Hilary Clinton said "we're sorry for the losses suffered by the Pakistan military" but added "we are both sorry for losses suffered by both our countries." We didn't obtain a halt to drone strikes. We didn't get a penny more on transit fees. And NATO trucks will still carry uninspected military hardware (listed as supplies for the Afghan National Security Forces). So how did we miscalculate?

We thought we had the US over a barrel because the Northern Network was unfeasible. In the event, the US spent $1 billion dollars to resist our pressure. We thought boycotting the Bonn and Chicago moots would compel NATA to listen to us. But the US went ahead anyway, formulating its end-game strategy for Afghanistan without input from us.

We thought we could hang on without CSF, Kerry Lugar aid and the IMF. But we couldn't. The rupee has lost nearly 10 % of its value, the budget is broke and domestic debt has soared.

We also miscalculated the intensity of counter pressure by the US. First, President Obama ratcheted up pressure in the US Congress to stop economic and military aid to Pakistan pending restoration of NATO supply lines. Second, the US Congress raised the spectre of declaring Pakistan a state sponsor of terrorism by threatening to label the Haqqani network and the Lashkar-e-Tayba as global terrorist organisations, the implication being that economic and military sanctions would follow under international law. Third, Washington persuaded Riyadh to hand over Abu Jindal, the LeT activist who organized and orchestrated the Mumbai attack in 2008, to India, raising the threat of formally linking the ISI to international terrorism. Fourth, it is openly committed to aligning with India as a strategic partner in Kabul as part of the New Grand Silk Route linking emerging markets.

The Pakistani military miscalculated on two fronts. It underestimated America's resolve to fashion the Afghan end game according to its own national interests. It also overestimated the Zardari government's anxiety to please the Americans by taking sole ownership of the decision to restore the NATO supply lines. In the event, the Americans didn't blink and the Zardari government took refuge behind parliament to protect its flanks from the opposition on the home front. The net result, to Pakistan's great disadvantage, was an inordinate delay in diffusing the crisis.

The military and government are both hoping that US funds and weapons will flow to ease their respective problems. But the opposition and media are likely to exploit the anti-American public sentiment to blast the belated agreement. Resumption of drone strikes and American exhortations to "do more" against the Haqqani network will reinforce anti-Americanism in the country and lead to criticism of both our military and political leaders for "selling out" to the Americans.

The rupture between the Pentagon and the Pakistani military was triggered by bitter strategic differences about the future shape of Afghanistan. It cannot be papered over by the latest terms of "reconciliation" between them. Other flash points are bound to occur in the run-up to 2014. The problem is that the GLOC point of rupture has also isolated Pakistan among the 47 influential countries that comprise NATO. Worse, the continuing tragedy is that Pakistan's civil-military leadership has been unwilling and unable to formulate a new national interest paradigm for Pakistan in which regional and global integration and internal stability rather than international isolation and political and economic anarchy come to characterize Pakistan.

There have been unforgivable debacles of miscalculation and overreach on the watch of the current civil-military leadership in Pakistan. It is time for a change of guard.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Jul 2012 10:22

Our lal salaam comrade MKB is having a hard time..

On the one hand we can understand his compulsions - he has to toe the TSPA (which is after all, Beijing's most faithful ally) official line and project the Salalaa incident as a 'massacre' while Mumbai 'incident' is of course, some minor pot hole in the road that should not stop any talks or love-fest. His comrades in Alimuddin street are not known to tolerate indiscipline..

But then this very stand also goes against his other wish - to project the recent 'apology' as a major victory for TSPA/Beijing and therefore a snub for Unkil. After all, a vaguely worded apology should not be sufficient for a deliberate 'massacre' - it should be followed up by punishing the responsible etc. And the fact is he is already sticking his neck out by even calling it an apology, when it is clearly some fig leaf thrown reluctantly at the proxytute by an angry Unkil just to get the job done.

Hence he ties himself up in knots, throwing all sorts of conspiracy theories and praying at least one can 'stick' in the reader's mind. After accusing Albright of rushing to take false credit for Jundal's arrest, now he himself offers the very same theory!

Someone with influence has to ask rediff whey they allow themselves to become the propaganda mouthpiece of such 'comrades'

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Jul 2012 10:22

shiv wrote:[uote="krithivas"]This is an excellent naamakarana for MKB/BKM; For the benefit of non-South Indians, The highlighted word can roughly be translated as "Morarji Kola" Bhandarakumar.
Rangudu wrote:As expected, B.K.Moothrakumar sees a glorious victory for TSPA and Kiyanahi in this US non-apology/quote]
Saar "moothram" is Sanskrit for Urine and the modern Hindi version of urination is "moothra visarjan" (pukka sanskrit)

Totally OT here, but look closely Tamil and Sanskrit were always sister languages and apart from Devenagiri script shared mordern Hindi is farther away from Sanskrit. Sanskrit is owned by North Indians is Colonial European construct.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Jul 2012 10:46

shiv wrote: This is exactly the time to start calling out that bully, finding out all the weaknesses he exposes in front of nations like Pakistan and get him to fall in line. That is the sort of attitude America understands.

Mullah Hakim bhai, when a supermodel wants to spend the night with you, you don't ask her if she proposes to do so for the next 20 years and if she can promise that she will not sleep with anyone else and so on...you take that offer and have a good time, knowing it may not last ( I mean the offer, not the 'act'

)

Chanakyan GOI should be under no illusions, but not say no to juicy offers if Unkil wants to beat TSP with a borrowed stick..

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 06 Jul 2012 11:01

Let Allah save Islam from Pakistan.......

http://dawn.com/2012/07/05/exit-god-enter-madness/

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Jul 2012 11:56

Regarding Ayub Khan is Burma- served with distinction , I don't that is correct, infact Ayub Khan ran away was a.k.a a deserter in Burma. the only fact that British needed him for operation Pakistan saved his a**

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 06 Jul 2012 12:02

Great progress in the secretary level talks and India walks extra mile

The result was more promising than it has been for a while

And in this case, New Delhi has not only gone the extra mile to accept Pakistan’s longstanding claim of being a victim of terrorism, but has also ‘reaffirmed’ its commitment to fight terrorism at all levels.

If India and Pakistan are to move ahead, they have to ensure an end to the hostile propaganda against each other that is fed to the media by governments through ‘official sources.’ Stereotypes have to be challenged, people to people contacts increased, and confidence building measures implemented on the fast track.