Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

[Hari Seldon]

Guys, chill. NOt that I should be giving away that phree advice that too here on the UKstani dhaga, but still...

rohitvats is a first class contributor to BRF's many dhagas, esp in the mil forum. Anyone calling him names implying he's less than a nationalist is way out of his mind. Amartya may well be a stockholmer, like Nirad. For one whose claim to fame was to have filigently studied the Bengal famine upclose and personal and all t hat, his subsequent cosying up to the Raj machine doesn't inspire respect in me at least.

As for islamic schools. I think UKstan deserves all that it has x10. bring on some more, I say...

[Lalmohan]

how many of you getting steamed up about amartya sen's quotes and rohit's alleged inferences actually live in the UK and understand the political context of the comments being made?

clearly not many of you by the sounds of things. you are too busy converting his comments to an indian context when it was totally irrelevant

his comments are about UK politics and public policy in 2012 - not about india, not about the british in india either now or a hundred years ago

[nakul]

Well, I would not call the faith of people as so finicky to simply give way because of admission criterion. Yes, some do but to see this admission criterion as a tactic employed would be going too far. Mostly, those from economically weaker section and SC/ST/OBC in true sense are more vulnerable. Otherwise, with the kind of fees charged by these schools, families from well to do background only approach these schools.

Coming to BD and RS, well, they are a product of a deeper flaw in our education system - one that has been controlled deftly by the Congress. Please read the book "Eminent Historians" by Arun Shourie for interesting details.

It is easy to blame the Congress but the Congress is not the source of all our problems. The atmosphere created by the British has helped the Congress survive. This is the same atmosphere we are talking about when we are saying that missionary schools are a colonial construct. It would be difficult to support the Congress if the atmosphere was Indic. Something which these schools do not help doing.

As you said, the families of well to non-Christian backgrounds will only approach these schools since Christians are provided financial aid. In this day & age where Chief Ministers can change their religion, it is not difficult for the poor & backward to follow suit. Moreover, the high fees from non Christians will subsidize the educations for Christians. How cool is that?

And one also remembers the impromptu closure of convent schools for one day in Bangalore on the same line....but it did draw the howl of protests from the parents and government. But as said earlier, wait for another 5-6 years, these schools will loose their clout.

Any info that I should have heard? Because AFAIK the schools are doing just fine.

My central point here is simple - I would not need to study a subject I did not like and had an option to give up if I was not forced to by my parents. It stems from the intricate web of relationship between church and Christians.

Well in this case, the parents dont have a choice. If you want your child to study in a convent school & you are Christian, you have to study the Bible. There would have been no problem had it been optional. Its an old strategy to keep the masses loyal to the church.

There you said it. It is the institution of Church and power it has which is at play here...

The school is an extension of the church. Instead of distancing themselves from the malpractices of the Church, they openly propound it. Here they are nothing but a facade put up by the church so that their flock get better lives and continue supporting it.

Well, how do I connect the above to the Convent Schools in India argument we started with? That aside, everyone had their good time, we'll have ours. Children are taught Gyatri mantra in wife's Day Care Center...and people come asking for more.

There is high demand & poor supply. A child born into a Christian family should not have more privileges than those in any other religion. This is nothing but a form of reservation where there is no need for any. Why can't they admit children like they are equals? Isn't this discrimination? No wonder Muslims seek more madarsahs since other exclusivist religions also practice the same methods. There is a misguided view among Christians that they are more deserving than others. I don't want that misguided sense of entitlement in my country especially between children seeking proper education.

Agreed. But to color everything aspect in Black and White is not correct.

Well, Black follows Grey. If you don't repel Grey, You might as accept Black because the Grey was never meant to be as strong as Black. It was just to make you feel comfortable in the absence of White.

Did you know that Mother Teresa was an EJ?

Well, try saying that among a bunch of well educated Indians and record their responses. That, my friend, is why I oppose convent schools.

[rohitvats]

As for islamic schools. I think UKstan deserves all that it has x10. bring on some more, I say...

HS, it is not what I've done elsewhere that should be the barometer of quality of interaction between posters. The post needs to stand on its own legs.

Having said that, what I find funny, and tragic, is that everything is being seen from the Hinduism angle and treats, perceived or otherwise, to it. I mean, AS said something about some policy in Britain and I supported the POV with a very limited premise. Rather than try and expand on the premise to prove the POV (mine) as incorrect, I see people jumping backwards and bringing in Hinduism and India in between. What has Convent Schools in India got to do with what AS said about faith based schools in UK? By what flight of imagination can one transpose POV in a particular context to India? Why is everything been seen from the angle of religion, especially as it applies to Hinduism?

One can criticize AS for being hypocrite, but what has it got to do with India and how India functions? Is his advise in this case to India?

[rohitvats]

It is easy to blame the Congress but the Congress is not the source of all our problems. The atmosphere created by the British has helped the Congress survive. This is the same atmosphere we are talking about when we are saying that missionary schools are a colonial construct. It would be difficult to support the Congress if the atmosphere was Indic. Something which these schools do not help doing.

Nakul, I think we're going to far here with respect to the kind of power wielded by these institutions. Everything said and done, these schools have to abide by the Indian system. Just to wish for removing convent schools because they are a symbol in the eyes of some as colonial heritage is being too jaundiced in outlook. For all their warts and pimples, they do serve the Indian population with good education. I don't think the children when they come out of these schools are any different from kids from other schools - they surely are not an instrument of dhimmifying the indics as far as I'm convinced. And this I can say from personal example.

A bit tangential, if anything can have impact on the minds of the students, it is the books they read and content therein.If the same books glorified Guptas and Mauryas more than the Mughals, then we'd have more Indic world view and awareness among the students. That is why I said, Congress controls this aspect deftly.

As you said, the families of well to non-Christian backgrounds will only approach these schools since Christians are provided financial aid. In this day & age where Chief Ministers can change their religion, it is not difficult for the poor & backward to follow suit. Moreover, the high fees from non Christians will subsidize the educations for Christians. How cool is that?

I think that is "hand wave" kind of argument. How many kids or families have you come across for it to be a cause of alarm? If not through inducement about self run schools, don't you think those who want to convert can do so by paying fees in other private schools?

As for subsidizing the education of Christians, you make it seem as if this is a "US versus THEM" argument? Is it not good enough that you're helping another INDIAN gain education - who otherwise might not be able to study here?

Also, why are you looking at only the gain of others? What about the gain of children? It is not as if these schools are the only game in the town. People go there willingly. This cross-subsidization argument is flimsy as far as I'm concerned.

Any info that I should have heard? Because AFAIK the schools are doing just fine.

What were you expecting - schools to be shut down? Ever heard of a school shut down in India?

Well in this case, the parents dont have a choice. If you want your child to study in a convent school & you are Christian, you have to study the Bible. There would have been no problem had it been optional. Its an old strategy to keep the masses loyal to the church.

So, how is that a problem as far as Convents and education for general masses are concerned?


The school is an extension of the church. Instead of distancing themselves from the malpractices of the Church, they openly propound it. Here they are nothing but a facade put up by the church so that their flock get better lives and continue supporting it.

Then it is between the Church and Christians, don't you think? How does it affect the mango-non-christian junta studying in these schools? And why are we supposing that everyone who attends church, out of coercion here, will grown into an Evan Jehadi?

There is high demand & poor supply. A child born into a Christian family should not have more privileges than those in any other religion. This is nothing but a form of reservation where there is no need for any. Why can't they admit children like they are equals?

For starters, there is now ample supply (on the lines of the convents). Yes, more in certain pockets than others but reaching there. It is their self-funded organization with constitutional authority - Jains do it, Sikhs do it - all the minorities do this.So, what is the problem there. Don't go to their school. Why am I, as a Brahmin, less deserving than an SC/ST/OBC for certain posts or opportunities?

The very definition of minority may well be screwed up - but as long as it is there in the constitution, these institutes are operating within the legal bounds of this country




Isn't this discrimination? No wonder Muslims seek more madarsahs since other exclusivist religions also practice the same methods. There is a misguided view among Christians that they are more deserving than others. I don't want that misguided sense of entitlement in my country especially between children seeking proper education.

More deserving for what? Muslims seeking Madrassa is not same as Convents. I'll take Convents over Madrassa any day -at least some good will come to larger society from these convents.

Well, try saying that among a bunch of well educated Indians and record their responses. That, my friend, is why I oppose convent schools.

You make it sound as if only those from Convents will refuse to accept this. How about trying to say the same thing to a DPS or Euroschool pass out crowd?

As I said earlier, you're missing the woods for the trees. To lay the blame on what is ill with respect to our view of ourselves at the doors of Convents is being simplistic - they are part of a larger system which actively works in this aspect.

[nakul]

It is easy to blame the Congress but the Congress is not the source of all our problems. The atmosphere created by the British has helped the Congress survive. This is the same atmosphere we are talking about when we are saying that missionary schools are a colonial construct. It would be difficult to support the Congress if the atmosphere was Indic. Something which these schools do not help doing.

Nakul, I think we're going to far here with respect to the kind of power wielded by these institutions. Everything said and done, these schools have to abide by the Indian system. Just to wish for removing convent schools because they are a symbol in the eyes of some as colonial heritage is being too jaundiced in outlook. For all their warts and pimples, they do serve the Indian population with good education. I don't think the children when they come out of these schools are any different from kids from other schools - they surely are not an instrument of dhimmifying the indics as far as I'm convinced. And this I can say from personal example.

A bit tangential, if anything can have impact on the minds of the students, it is the books they read and content therein.If the same books glorified Guptas and Mauryas more than the Mughals, then we'd have more Indic world view and awareness among the students. That is why I said, Congress controls this aspect deftly.

As you said, the families of well to non-Christian backgrounds will only approach these schools since Christians are provided financial aid. In this day & age where Chief Ministers can change their religion, it is not difficult for the poor & backward to follow suit. Moreover, the high fees from non Christians will subsidize the educations for Christians. How cool is that?

I think that is "hand wave" kind of argument. How many kids or families have you come across for it to be a cause of alarm? If not through inducement about self run schools, don't you think those who want to convert can do so by paying fees in other private schools?

As for subsidizing the education of Christians, you make it seem as if this is a "US versus THEM" argument? Is it not good enough that you're helping another INDIAN gain education - who otherwise might not be able to study here?

Also, why are you looking at only the gain of others? What about the gain of children? It is not as if these schools are the only game in the town. People go there willingly. This cross-subsidization argument is flimsy as far as I'm concerned.

Any info that I should have heard? Because AFAIK the schools are doing just fine.

What were you expecting - schools to be shut down? Ever heard of a school shut down in India?

Well in this case, the parents dont have a choice. If you want your child to study in a convent school & you are Christian, you have to study the Bible. There would have been no problem had it been optional. Its an old strategy to keep the masses loyal to the church.

So, how is that a problem as far as Convents and education for general masses are concerned?


The school is an extension of the church. Instead of distancing themselves from the malpractices of the Church, they openly propound it. Here they are nothing but a facade put up by the church so that their flock get better lives and continue supporting it.

Then it is between the Church and Christians, don't you think? How does it affect the mango-non-christian junta studying in these schools? And why are we supposing that everyone who attends church, out of coercion here, will grown into an Evan Jehadi?

There is high demand & poor supply. A child born into a Christian family should not have more privileges than those in any other religion. This is nothing but a form of reservation where there is no need for any. Why can't they admit children like they are equals?

For starters, there is now ample supply (on the lines of the convents). Yes, more in certain pockets than others but reaching there. It is their self-funded organization with constitutional authority - Jains do it, Sikhs do it - all the minorities do this.So, what is the problem there. Don't go to their school. Why am I, as a Brahmin, less deserving than an SC/ST/OBC for certain posts or opportunities?

The very definition of minority may well be screwed up - but as long as it is there in the constitution, these institutes are operating within the legal bounds of this country




Isn't this discrimination? No wonder Muslims seek more madarsahs since other exclusivist religions also practice the same methods. There is a misguided view among Christians that they are more deserving than others. I don't want that misguided sense of entitlement in my country especially between children seeking proper education.

More deserving for what? Muslims seeking Madrassa is not same as Convents. I'll take Convents over Madrassa any day -at least some good will come to larger society from these convents.

Well, try saying that among a bunch of well educated Indians and record their responses. That, my friend, is why I oppose convent schools.

You make it sound as if only those from Convents will refuse to accept this. How about trying to say the same thing to a DPS or Euroschool pass out crowd?

As I said earlier, you're missing the woods for the trees. To lay the blame on what is ill with respect to our view of ourselves at the doors of Convents is being simplistic - they are part of a larger system which actively works in this aspect.

Since I am unable to convince you about my viewpoint, I won't push this further. As long as we continue to being apologetic about them, there is little point in continuing this line of discussion. The British know they would be facing an identity crisis and are acknowledging it. While we continue to allow our identity to be moulded by others.

[rohitvats]

Since I am unable to convince you about my viewpoint, I won't push this further. As long as we continue to being apologetic about them, there is little point in continuing this line of discussion. The British know they would be facing an identity crisis and are acknowledging it. While we continue to allow our identity to be moulded by others.

Nakul, I'm not being apologetic about anyone or anything. Like I said, I have studied in these schools and have seen things from close. Add to it, I have one such Sisters of Jesus and Mary establishment in my hometown who run a school and a medical center. For the fantastic work they've done in education and healthcare, they have not shied away from trying to convert people - although covertly in nudge-2 wink-2 mode. That they have not been successful is a different story altogether and for reasons totally different.

But to say that these convents are molding the opinions of the masses and that too, mango-abdul-hindus is going a bit too far....

[nakul]

Since I am unable to convince you about my viewpoint, I won't push this further. As long as we continue to being apologetic about them, there is little point in continuing this line of discussion. The British know they would be facing an identity crisis and are acknowledging it. While we continue to allow our identity to be moulded by others.

Nakul, I'm not being apologetic about anyone or anything. Like I said, I have studied in these schools and have seen things from close. Add to it, I have one such Sisters of Jesus and Mary establishment in my hometown who run a school and a medical center. For the fantastic work they've done in education and healthcare, they have not shied away from trying to convert people - although covertly in nudge-2 wink-2 mode. That they have not been successful is a different story altogether and for reasons totally different.

But to say that these convents are molding the opinions of the masses and that too, mango-abdul-hindus is going a bit too far....

Your inability to distinguish between their conversions and their charitable work confounds me. They have brought us down to a level where we believe that they are ought to help us. The purpose of setting up these institutions is to make them appear good. They have already succeeded in this step. It is upto us to recognize them for what they are. Softening the masses and make a foreign religion acceptable to the locals. As you can read on BR itself, EJism is rampant in tribal areas. When somebody stops them, they cry foul. Most well educated Indians fall for their lies coz these education and health institutions have created an image of Christianity that prevents them from accepting the truth.

Its not the convent schools, hospitals that are bad; its the truth that they hide which makes them so dangerous. Its the intentions behind the setting up of these institutions is what we should be careful of. I think many people have studied in convent schools. They think that they know & understand Christianity. But the real work is done in poor and backward areas where the folk are ripe for picking. Thanks to the excellent PR blitz provided by schools & hospitals, the aam hindus cannot connect the dots. The media plays its part and everyone thinks all iz well onlee. I am sorry to say that you have fallen prey to this PR blitz as well.

[Lalmohan]

nakul - christianity like islam is a prosletysing religion. they are required to convert the unbelievers. different groups of the adherents of these relegions do it with different levels of enthusiasm - some very high, some non existent
i think rohit is asking you to filter through the different groups and their postures on this requirement

[nakul]

nakul - christianity like islam is a prosletysing religion. they are required to convert the unbelievers.

therein lies the rub. this apologetic attitude makes us dhimmis. the conversion of "enroachment" is covered as a "requirement." we are too scared to call a spade a spade. christians were also required to kill witches. there is no need for us to bow down to their requirements.

different groups of the adherents of these relegions do it with different levels of enthusiasm - some very high, some non existent

The moderate ones cover the more enthusiaistic. all of them believe in it. only some actually carry out the deed. the moderate ones setup the base & run the day to day ops. No one would stop a school or hospital from running. This gives them easy access to the locals. They gauge the awareness levels of the locals & plan their next step accordingly.

i think rohit is asking you to filter through the different groups and their postures on this requirement

none of the christians i have met are very enthusiastic on this requirement. but these guys dont run the church. the church funds these institutions to meet its requirements. at the end of the day, the church is a religio-political entity & uses its various arms to fulfill its requirements. we simply see the convent schools & the church as separate when they are actuall run by the same bunch of guys.

[Vayutuvan]

And If I understand correctly, he was hinting at Islam based schools

Sire, we should take Prof. Amartya Sen at face value and not read between the lines. If one starts doing that, this can be interpreted in many different ways.
Regards

PS: I have learnt a lot from your posts on the Siachen thread and agree with you on that issue. But here, Prof. AS has clearly displayed certain amount of hypocrisy and should be called out.

[Karan M]

Rohit, the problem is you are extrapolating what convent schools do from your own experience, wherein these guys don't have much pull on you and your family.

For the lower and lower-middle classes, the convent schools and the entire ecosystem the church creates, from easy loans, to education is a huge plus for conversion. Now, I can speak from seeing what is happening in various places in south and north india; but especially in the south, if you get a maid or domestic help, its interesting to see that their aspirations are very high given their childrens aspirations are likewise, and every penny matters. So the church organizations, in combination with schools ensure that this need for free education or even fee reduction, etc is met and people convert. Its very straightforward. My neighbours driver changed his house because his neighbours would everyday invite him to go to church and even their wives would hint at how better their lives were, because money was now not a problem. Similarly, even amongst certain "disadvantaged" hindu communities, the drive for converts is so strong, that my friend was propositioned for conversion (~at age 18 years) by a neighbour in whose house he would go to learn the piano (which by usual standards, is a rare thing).

Now, Amartya Sen is being a total hypocrite. He is first of all thoroughly thoroughly muddled in many ways - you should see some of the things he & his "friend" Ms Martha Nassbaum have said about Hindus & some of the topics he has signed on on. He is fairly similar to of the eminent historian types you were mentioning. Though he still tries to dance all around contentious topics to be progressive and what not. His stint in the US/UK et al has perhaps mercifully spared him from being as fully enamoured of communism and marxism as some of his more red fellow travellers are. But Ms Nussbaums statements pretty much say it all about the views Mr Sen associates with, and considers kosher.

For him to then insist that only christian schools should be kept in the UK and the rest banned, is shameful hypocrisy. For example, Nassbaum & co, as I recall, were part of the same group that fought Indian parents in trying to reform the California educational system, which has had the usual issue with teaching Indian kids all sorts of dumb rubbish in the name of what it assumes about their religion. When Indian parents got up, they were attacked by Witzel, Farmer - both infamous proponents of the Aryan Invasion Theory, and who routinely race bait with regards to Hindu's, and have taken part in evangelical linked "Dalit" meets etc. Point is ALL these jokers are linked.

In that sense, what you are not understanding is that as far as the likes of Amartya Sen etc are concerned, they are the true gunga dins. They oppose Islamic schools because they are now a problem for their adopted homeland. But when it comes to India, they defend these very institutions with vehemence, and would call you a hindu fanatic for merely saying what you did about "eminent historians" (how dare you be sarcastic) or even being proud of your hindu identity. The problem with the western or even eastern educational system is two fold, the curriculum is full of misplaced references against hindus - eg caste, cows and curry as mentioned by one wag and then the bias of the teacher. In many cases, christian teachers were their bias openly. I have seen this myself. The neo-converts are arguably the worst, they bear no relation to the anglo-indians of yesteryear many of whom were reportedly more understanding.
All I can say is mixing faith and schools needs to be consistent. If Islamic schools are bad, so are christian ones.

Now you'll say but its a UK only topic, why look at it from an Indian prism.

As Indians, who are at the receiving end of the verbal diarrhea from both camps, I'd say, let them fight it out and sort it out amongst themselves and we should push for both sides to get their privileges taken away. Because, what happens there, will ultimately be copied here in India. Lets face it, a huge number of our fellow citizens, are sheep who follow what they are told blindly. Use the US/UK as examples, and they'll blindly consider it. Come up with the idea ourselves, and its communal.

As far as India is concerned, I think its high time these so called minority institutions were watched strictly by the state and told off in no uncertain terms, when they try to link education to conversion. Many are doing so, in subtle manners which cannot even be traced out on paper, but is all available from discussions. Come up with the links and they'll brand you a hindu fanatic and a Conspiracy monger. Its the way of things right now in India. But conversions are a booming business. And the likes of Sen, with their selective worldview, encourage it.

Lalmohan,

So what if they are required to convert! Just because they are required to do something does not make it right or even considerate of other faiths and cultures.

And why is it that we Indians have to always filter through their babble and decide who is doing what. Let them make the effort to be unanimously normal/considerate etc. After all, we hindus are all lumped together with the dregs of society when any crime is committed. I'd say the favour needs to be returned.

[Vayutuvan]

May be Prof. Sen is hinting at the cleft UK caught itself in. Either way, they are in a no-win situation. If they go completely multi-culti, they are screwed by the Islamists, if not their own fundus take over. He is in effect saying that let your own fundus take over. Jolly good, I say. I am happy whichever way the monarchy goes down the tubes as long as it goes down the tubes.

[archan]

Whatever the reason, calling names degrades the level of discussion!

Sadho. As a result of the "indulgances" on the previous page, Surasena ji finds himself banned for a month, and Sridhar.E and rohitvats get board warnings. Be careful in future. This gungadin business needs to stop.

[rohitvats]

Not in my wildest imagination had I thought I'd board warning on "Indo-UK Discussion" thread...sigh!!!

[jambudvipa]

Lalmohan, what is with this " you havent lived in the UK,hence cannot comment.I do hence am qualified to interpret things for you" thing?

why try to impose self censorship on people?

When news is in the public domain especaiilly a character like amartya sen who carries his secular credentials people get riled up and that should not surpise anyone.

For those who need reminding of the munifence of the Brits here some food for thought:

http://jambudveep.wordpress.com/categor ... h-misrule/

http://jambudveep.wordpress.com/2010/12 ... e-subject/

This is not ancient history,the ruling appratus is essentially the same.A few crumbs of "diversity","multicultaralism" etc does not mean the ruling appratus has changed.it remains as vicious as ever.The only difference is the two wars defanged them a bit.

FYI: I have lived in the UK so perhaps I am "entitled" to make a comment.

[Lalmohan]

i am not censoring anyone, i am asking whether "you" understand the political context of the comment or not
if "you" do, great - fire away - whatever opinion you have is doubly valid
if "you" don't then please avoid talking at a tangent
too often on BRF these days, people selectively interpret what a poster says and take it away in another direction and use it for ad hominem attacks - i dont care what opinions people have, as long as it is expressed with civility

we started here with one article about someone's opinion on faith based schools in the UK and we now have a page of ranting about convent schools in india and EJ's taking over the world

happy to have a discussion on the latter, but its not directly relevant to the context of faith schools in the UK - and as others have said, its really about the rise of Islamic schools in the UK and the potential social issues they are expected to create

[Sushupti]

UK police arrest 6 Islamists in anti-terror raids. One of the men arrested was a police community worker

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18720213

[RamaY]

Indian missionary schools should be banned - outright. They are extension of colonial rule along with IAS system, Police and intelligence system.

Care to tell me why this should be done? And how are they an 'extension' of colonial rule?

Rohitvatsji,

For that you need to go in to the early days of EIC colonization. Convent schools were established by the British Raj to educate and train the locals to be their assistants in holding Bharat in their control. To that purpose Christian convents were given lands and financial resources by British Raj. At the same time the British Raj destroyed the pre-existing Bharatiya guru-kula school system.

The guru-kula system was more effective than its replacement convent system. How do I know? I know that none of the guru-kula system subjects and syllabus deracinated the Bharatiya public.

The convent system did its duty. It produced enough deracinated Indians so that we could get a Jyothirao Phule, a BR Ambedkar, a JLN, a Krishna Menon type intellectuals who later defined Bharat to be India that it is today after Independence. 99% of all the political, social, intellectual and legal leadership of India at the time of Independence in 1947 is a product of this British Convent system.

Do you want me to summarize the damage this Convent Educated Elite have done to Bharat? The very Congress system that you are comfortable to blame for the state of dhimmi-education system we have know is the product of this Convent Educated Elite.

Even today majority of Indian elite are the product of this convent system.

Only recently, probably post 2000 time frame, we started seeing Hindu education institutions growing in primary and secondary education sector. We can see the impact of this change only after 2030-40, once the hindu alumni get into policy making age.

***

A personal experience.

I have 30+ nephews and nieces in my immediate family (Children/grand-children of brothers, sisters etc.,). Only two (two children of my brother) out of the 30 went to a convent school. They both turned out to be deracinated dhimmis.

The girl married a christian as soon as she got a job.

The boy is in the process of an inter-caste marriage. The parents cannot accept his marriage because they didn't accept the girls marriage. So he is in the process of leaving the parents to their fate. The boy is a christian in consciousness even though he doesn't know it.

I used to take them to the convent school in those days (I was in my teens then). The school prohibited bindis, flowers, bangles and any other hindu cultural symbol. The kids were always reminded of the pagan nature of Hindu system in a derogatory manner.

[nachiket]

They both turned out to be deracinated dhimmis.

The girl married a christian as soon as she got a job.

The boy is in the process of an inter-caste marriage. The parents cannot accept his marriage because they didn't accept the girls marriage. So he is in the process of leaving the parents to their fate. The boy is a christian in consciousness even though he doesn't know it.

I fail to see how an inter-caste or inter-religious marriage makes people deracinated dhimmis.

[jambudvipa]

They both turned out to be deracinated dhimmis.

The girl married a christian as soon as she got a job.

The boy is in the process of an inter-caste marriage. The parents cannot accept his marriage because they didn't accept the girls marriage. So he is in the process of leaving the parents to their fate. The boy is a christian in consciousness even though he doesn't know it.

I fail to see how an inter-caste or inter-religious marriage makes people deracinated dhimmis.

What RamaY garu has posted is a common occurcne.Same occured in my extended family.boy converts after marriage,parents in no mans land.
Nachiket,It is not the marriage which deracinates them,they are already deracinated by this point.
The act of maariage and subsequent conversion is only the "final stage" of the cancer of deracination.The entire convent system has been geared since last two hundred odd years precisely for this purpose.

There exist n-number of scholarly material on this subject( destruction of Indias education system by the British parasites and the agressive promotion of Christianity via convents,food handouts etc etc) for those who are want to look further.

[Roperia]

U.K. bans Indian Mujahideen | The Hindu

...
The ban, which followed a unanimous vote in the House of Commons, came as five men and a woman were arrested in London in a counter-terror swoop ahead of the Olympic Games.

...

Announcing the ban, Home Office Minister James Brokenshire said that there was evidence that the IM had been “engaged in indiscriminate mass casualty attacks in India.”

“For example, in May 2008, a spate of bomb detonations in the city of Jaipur killed 63 and in September of last year an explosion outside the high court in Delhi reportedly killed 12 and injured 65,” he said.

“We believe that there is ample evidence that IM is concerned in terrorism and I believe it is right that we add the organisation to the list of proscribed organisations,” the Minister told MPs.

The ban makes it an offence to be a member of the IM under Britain’s Terrorism Act 2000. The group is already banned in several countries, including the U.S. and New Zealand.

Mr. Brokenshire said that IM “has frequently perpetrated attacks against civilian targets... with the intention of maximising casualties.”

“They use violence to achieve their stated objectives of creating an Islamic state in India and implementing Sharia law,” he said. “IM has sought to incite sectarian hatred in India by deliberately targeting Hindu places of worship, such as a prayer ceremony in Varanasi which killed a child in December 2010.

“The organisation has also publicly threatened to attack British tourists, so they clearly pose a threat to British nationals in India,” Mr. Brokenshire said.

...

The tide is turning in India's favor worldwide. A welcome move by the British Govt.

[Gus]

uk busts some terror group. not sure if its really substantial threat or just some internet jihadis busted up to stiffen the upper lip. anyways, I still predict a paki connection.

added later: here it is

http://www.donnybrookmail.com.au/news/w ... 15519.aspx

Six arrested in terror raid near Olympic site

[Neela]

UK police arrest 6 Islamists in anti-terror raids. One of the men arrested was a police community worker
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18720213

It has become standard practice now.
How come just before any major event , terrorists are caught? Looks like a PR exercise!

[archan]

One could also say:
1) If a terrorist group is seeking to push forward its agenda, it wants visibility in the world. They naturally would want to attack at a time and place where the whole world's attention is. Olympics is one such opportunity.

2) An event like this also means that people from pretty much every country out there will be present in the same city. This means, if an attack can be pulled off, then a large number of countries will be "affected by terrorism" and the terrorists' agenda of terrorizing the world is more likely to be achieved. After all, this is what they want - become a problem big enough that people in the world get fed up and give in to their demands. It is analogous to what the eunuchs do.

3) Police departments will of course work extra hard before such an event. Even the forces that might be deployed in other things like traffic policing in the normal course, might be focused on finding out such terrorist threats. In addition, police and intelligence from foreign collaborators would be on alert.

To me this explains to a large extent why terrorists get busted ahead of important events. It is not as if they don't get busted when a major event is not planned. There have been plenty of busts in the US itself. That paki in NYC was found with the Nissan when no such event was due.
I wonder how and why we on BRF declare some of the things as propaganda, psy ops ityadi when simpler explanations are obvious.

[Gus]

^ there's also a possibility that these people were under watch for a long time and a convenient time was picked to bust them up (no imminent threat, a bunch of wannbes etc). Not saying that is the case here, but it is a possibility. It could also be a shakedown or rattle the cage thing to see what else is popping out (message interception etc).

[Lalmohan]

there are around 2000 islamists under surveillance in the UK as per the home minister (on a radio interview recently). the liquid bomb plotters were being tracked using a webcam hidden inside their house. some under detention orders are effectively under house arrest with formal video surveillance
when it looks like the cell/gang is going supercritical the decision is made to arrest. muslim groups complain that only a few of those arrested lead to a conviction, but to be honest - better safe than sorry

[Aditya_V]

I think those questioning is more as good as it gives, the UK - BBC and others supported by them have long supported Terrorists and given moral support. A Bristish Foreign Minister some millibund blamed Indians didnt give Kashmir, Hence 26/11.

In my personal opinions, British Ministers, elite, police should be subjected to the same critism which the unleash on India. Chickens need to come to roost

[Neela]

One could also say:
1) If a terrorist group is seeking to push forward its agenda, it wants visibility in the world. They naturally would want to attack at a time and place where the whole world's attention is. Olympics is one such opportunity.
2) An event like this also means that people from pretty much every country out there will be present in the same city. This means, if an attack can be pulled off, then a large number of countries will be "affected by terrorism" and the terrorists' agenda of terrorizing the world is more likely to be achieved. After all, this is what they want - become a problem big enough that people in the world get fed up and give in to their demands. It is analogous to what the eunuchs do.
3) Police departments will of course work extra hard before such an event. Even the forces that might be deployed in other things like traffic policing in the normal course, might be focused on finding out such terrorist threats. In addition, police and intelligence from foreign collaborators would be on alert.
To me this explains to a large extent why terrorists get busted ahead of important events. It is not as if they don't get busted when a major event is not planned. There have been plenty of busts in the US itself. That paki in NYC was found with the Nissan when no such event was due.
I wonder how and why we on BRF declare some of the things as propaganda, psy ops ityadi when simpler explanations are obvious.

1.Quite the contrary.I think the likelihood of attacks during majors events has gone down . This is simply because of increased security for these events. Did you even see the security we had for Commonwealth games? All major attacks in the last decade or so years were when it was least expected.

2. I watch British news on a daily basis and quite literally see spin at work. To give you an example, there were massive IT problems at Natwest bank last week. I was wondering how long before some Indian outsourcing center is blamed. Two days into the crisis, I see "evidence" . It was an advertisement in Hyderabad in Feb 2011 for CA software or some such - the same software that caused the problems in the bank. It first appears in http://www.theregister.co.uk and spreads to other dailies like wildfire.Indian outsourcing blamed. And evidence was an advertisement 15 months back. I am not even sure of other departments within the bank would know who did it without actually looking at the ticket or patch specs.
The IT head (or CEO?) of the bank then comes on air and tells it has nothing to do with outsourcing but by then the damage is done.

3. I would strongly urge you to read any article related to the news. Let us take this one.
I quote:

Officers said the five men and one woman were detained following an operation to monitor their activities and insisted their alleged plans to stage attacks had no link to London's upcoming Summer Games, which begin on July 27

No attacks were considered to be imminent, and the fact that Britain's terrorism threat level has not been altered also indicates that authorities believed they had good knowledge of the extent and scope of the possible plot.

Now that does not add up to what your theory is. That fact that wide media coverage was given for this made me say "it looks like". I am not claiming I know more about the incident per se but I am making a surmise based on certain other events. That is all.

> I wonder how and why we on BRF declare some of the things as propaganda, psy ops ityadi when simpler explanations are obvious
Archan-ji , I have immense respect for people who run this site. Please understand that first. But in a non-confrontational view , I would like to state the that statement is quite snobbish and condescending. One must be really cuckoo not to realize that the media has become and extension of politics and the the tentacles of both politics and media extend into each other's a**es quite significantly. Please read about the Leveson enquiry in the UK to know why I think your statement is snobbish. The system is used for political gain, vendetta, revenge, and sometimes even vulgar things. I know of one case where the media were giving a countdown to the 18th( or 16th?) birthday to a girl for several weeks.

Propaganda/psy-ops are here because the media have allowed themselves to be used. I am not saying you are taking a utopian view - I am saying it could be much, much worse than we think it is.

-Neela

[sampat]

One could also say:


2. I watch British news on a daily basis and quite literally see spin at work. To give you an example, there were massive IT problems at Natwest bank last week. I was wondering how long before some Indian outsourcing center is blamed. Two days into the crisis, I see "evidence" . It was an advertisement in Hyderabad in Feb 2011 for CA software or some such - the same software that caused the problems in the bank. It first appears in http://www.theregister.co.uk and spreads to other dailies like wildfire.Indian outsourcing blamed. And evidence was an advertisement 15 months back. I am not even sure of other departments within the bank would know who did it without actually looking at the ticket or patch specs.
The IT head (or CEO?) of the bank then comes on air and tells it has nothing to do with outsourcing but by then the damage is done.

-Neela

This is not unique to UK. In Finland, when new railway ticketing system (developed by accenture) went online it faced severe downtimes. Newspaper found one resume of Indian guys who had worked on system testing in India. So they were subtly pointing blame towards India. accenture denied that use of foreign labour (outsourcing) had anythiing to do with system fault.

Link to Resume report

another report

[Lalmohan]

neela - in this case there does appear to be a political motive behind the arrests and the timing is also planned. the arrested appear to be bangladeshi and 1 converted white islamist calling himself sala'ud-din. the deadly weapon they managed to get hold of was a sword - which apparently precipitated the police crack down. it seems the group had been under surveillance for some time. i suspect these are the amature smokescreen that is diverting police attention from the real attack cell(s)
home secretary needed a good news story in a bad week for politics

[Neela]

neela - in this case there does appear to be a political motive behind the arrests and the timing is also planned. the arrested appear to be bangladeshi and 1 converted white islamist calling himself sala'ud-din. the deadly weapon they managed to get hold of was a sword - which apparently precipitated the police crack down. it seems the group had been under surveillance for some time. i suspect these are the amature smokescreen that is diverting police attention from the real attack cell(s)
home secretary needed a good news story in a bad week for politics

It is a PR exercise but it also has its benefits. See, someone planning to do hanky panky is under enormous pressure all the time. Some people will simple break on hearing or seeing this news. Some people will cross over to the other side and spill the beans - it could be anyone - friends, wives, sisters of those associated who get wind of the something serious and jump ship. When fear , anxiety kicks in, rational thought it lost and we do strange improbable things.

[Victor]

British question mark lingers over Arunachal

Miliband thus placed a glaring question mark over the legitimacy of the McMahon Line, which Lhasa and New Delhi had agreed upon at the Simla Convention in 1914.

Let us see what the netas in Delhi do with this. It has undoubtedly put their langothis is a tight knot. They *must* demand that the brits clarify.

The Miliband statement mentions “Tibet”, but also “the People’s Republic of China.” This leaves the door open for the British government to formally clarify that its recognises Tibet’s independence pre-1949.

[Kapil]

RamaY,

What alternative schools did Dr Ambedkar have access to apart from the Convent one?

[Philip]

UK security at airports beefed up.Do not carry any liquids of 100ml or more in your hand luggage,it will be dumped and even smaller amounts are sent back to the "sniffer",causing delays even in fast track queues.Unless one has grandstand freebie tkts for the Olympics,its a time best to avoid London!

[RamaY]

RamaY,

What alternative schools did Dr Ambedkar have access to apart from the Convent one?

What is education? What education we were talking about? How many Indians, irrespective of their caste, received English education in those days (1891-1912 by the time BR got undergrad degree)?

Belonging to the Kabir Panth, Ramji Sakpal encouraged his children to read the Hindu classics. He used his position in the army to lobby for his children to study at the government school, as they faced resistance owing to their caste. Although able to attend school, Ambedkar and other untouchable children were segregated and given little attention or assistance by the teachers

http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitst ... er%203.pdf

The Laissez faire system of education introduced by the Woods Despatch of 1854 and reiterated by the India Education Commission of 1882 was reversed by Lord Curzon, who became the Viceroy of India in 1898. The liberalisation of educational policy during the latter half of the 19th century was viewed with distaste by Lord Curzon as it resulted in increased criticism of governmental policies. Therefore, Curzon planned to reform the educational structure by officialising Indian education through higher control181. The policies initiated by him influenced the Indian
Educational Systems in the subsequent decades.

Lord Curzon's educational reforms started with the Simla conference held in September 1901, a starting point of an era of increased educational activity and earnest prosecution of educational reforms 182. This was followed by the appointment of the Indian Universities Commission (1902), on the basis of whose recommendations the Indian Universities Act was passed in 1904. In 1913, the next major change was the declaration of the Educational Policy, which was passed through a government resolution.

So BR was the one of the very few lucky people to get English education in India (he received graduate degree by 1912) even though he came from a poor large family (14 kids) and so-called untouchable family.

The total cost of the college during 1906-1907 was Rs.31,914, the cost to Government being Rs.23,766.

***

There is nothing wrong in BR getting whatever education he wanted to and got access to. There is also nothing wrong in him becoming a convenient tool in Anglo-Saxon social engineering project against Indian interests, perhaps it is his prerogative. There is also nothing wrong in him writing a constitution that is in line with his worldview and suitable to his or his masters' agendas.

It is similar to what Shekar Guptas, Sachars, Kuldeep Nayars etc doing to Bharatiya interests today. Pls look at the post I made in Indian Intersts thread with BR's quote after his 2nd marriage to a Brahmin woman (very convinient for him to uplift poor Brahmin woman and not a Dalit)

They and their children will reap what they sowed on this land.


At the same time it is also right to question these individuals prejudices, loyalties and consequences of their actions. After all it is not just their children who are facing the brunt of their missteps, but also hundreds of millions of Hindus who were equally misfortune, poor and uneducated and unemployed to this day.

[pentaiah]

AFP
Dated August 15th 2012
Buenos_Aires

Indian ambassador to Argentina speaking to the diplomats and dignitaries attending the Indian independence day celebrations made a passing and some what sensational statement that could potentially upset the crown (jewels).

The sting of the matter is according to Indian ambassador "after careful study of historical facts and international jurisprudence of territorial claims, Argentina has in alien able rights to
The Falkland Islands (English pronunciation: /ˈfɒlklənd/ or /ˈfɔːlklənd/; Spanish: Islas Malvinas)
in addition to South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands (SGSSI).

Diplomats and political observers opined that the decline of the UK in spite of pretentious of other wise is a reality and Indian solidarity with Argentina comes in the wake of HM government announcement of ceeding legitimate Indian territory to PRC to appease PRC.

Further the Indian diplomat openly mused that Gibraltor should also go to Spain as UK claims to such legitimate Spanish territory smacks of 17th century imperialism and rings hollow in light of international law and UN charter.

Further the talk of the august gathering surrounded on possible fall out on Scotland seeking independence whose people continue to be oppressed as often proclaimed by Sir Sean Connery more popularly known as double oh seven

The Scottish Government has expressed its intention to hold an independence referendum in late 2014.

Report ends

[Lalmohan]

phillip-saar, that 100ml liquids rule has been in place internationally for 5+ years, ever since the liquid bomb plot

[putnanja]

UK security at airports beefed up.Do not carry any liquids of 100ml or more in your hand luggage,it will be dumped and even smaller amounts are sent back to the "sniffer",causing delays even in fast track queues.Unless one has grandstand freebie tkts for the Olympics,its a time best to avoid London!

The security at UK airports border on the ridiculous. I was flying from US to India through London, and had a 4oz(118ml) cough syrup for my son that I had bought in US, which uses imperial and not metric system. The TSA at US airport had allowed it through, as the limit is 4oz in US. The security check guy at the UK airport threw it away as it was above 100ml, as though 18ml more would have been more dangerous

[shyamd]

^^ Words cant describe how angry I get when in the UK airports about this liquid thing. I had a 150ml parfume in hand luggage with just less than 20ml parfume left. I've travelled for many times and never had an issue. They through it away. Had a 5 minute argument with the guy - he said he is doing his job and can't speak for others letting them through bla bla and then how its the container that matters not the content.

To be honest, It could have been worse, after this liquid plot broke out, they started seizing things during transit that were bought from departure airports Duty free . A guy in Paris airport had to throw his big bottle of whisky he got from Dubai airport whilst he was en route to London.