Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

A_Gupta wrote:I don't know if this language-teaching research will go anywhere. If it does, then since modern Indian languages have a connection with classical Sanskrit this might serve as a way to teach Sanskrit along with the mother tongue.
http://www.science20.com/news_articles/ ... ness-91827
Arun let me make an observation that I have never shared with anyone else. There is a tradition in brahmin families to pass on certain information that is nowadays worthless for making a living. I use the term brahmin because I am unaware if the tradition exists in non brahmin communities. I refer to the fact that many children are taught a string of sanskrit shlokas at home which remain in memory for a lifetime. Those shlokas are recited at prayer time and usually desperate occasions like before exams. The act of teaching these shlokas imparts a basic knowledge of Sanskrit without anyone realizing it and that is the way my own (little) knowledge of sanskrit came. The knowledge gets refined over the years as the usually popular shlokas are heard at functions an in movies or temples and meanings gradually become clear. A movie example is "tumhi ho mata, pita tumhi ho" from "twameva mata cha pita twameva" etc

When I was a boy I would hear an old fuddy duddy ask a boy "What is your name". he would reply "Aditya" and the blathering trembling urine leaking old codger would say "Aditya - what a fine name". I would (as a boy) think "wtf? What's fine about the name.? If this old bugger thinks it's fine it must be a liability"

But now as i get older - when I am closer to that blathering trembling urine leaking old codger than the boy, I am seeing and understanding things that I did not - largely because I have over the years, figured out meanings of previously meaningless shlokas. I suggest the mere memorization of sanskrit passages or shlokas even short ones as children would help.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Another Book

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Publication Date: 1st Edition: 1980, 2nd Edition: 1992
Author: Kaikhushru Dhunjibhoy Sethna (K.D. Sethna)
The Problem of Aryan Origins: from an Indian point of view

Review by N.S. Rajaram
When the long overdue revision of Indian history makes it to the history books, K.D. Sethna willhave to be accorded on honored place. Long before the increasingly popular interpretation of theHarappan civilization as post Vedic became the norm, he had begun to chip away at the wall of superstition that protects the Aryan invasion theory. His book under review, The Problem of Aryan Origins, takes the reader on a grand tour of what is the central problem of ancient Indianhistory. When the first edition appeared in 1980 it must have seemed heretical indeed, questioning the Aryan invasion theory no less. In the years following, the Aryan invasion theory has lost much of its sanctity. In fact, no archaeologist I know of, Indian or Western, any longer believes in such an invasion. Its proponents are now decidedly on the defensive.

The second edition, which has more than doubled in length, includes five supplements, notably the long Supplement V, discussing the Finnish scholar Asko Parpola's major study: "The Coming of the Aryans to Iran and India and the Cultural and Ethnic Identity of the Dasas" that had appeared in Studia Orientalia in 1988. Unless there is a major miracle that can reverse all the recent findings, Parpola's thesis will be seen by future historians as the last major effort insupport of the Aryan migration hypothesis and the Aryan-Dravidian divide. And in his 220 page discussion (Supplement V), Sethna has written its final epitaph. Thus the book is a valuable study of the history and evidence relating to theories about the ancient Aryan society of India. (It is rumored also that Parpola is no longer working on the Aryan problem.)

The Problem of Aryan Origins is made up of distinctly two parts. The first part consists of acollection of more or less independent essays in thirteen chapters and two Appendixes that madeup the first edition, and four Supplements added in the second. The second part is the truly monumental Supplement V, surely one of the most thorough analyses of the Aryan invasiontheory ever written.


In dealing with a book as comprehensive as Sethna’s The Problem of Aryan Origins, it is impossible to cover all its salient features in a single review. I will therefore select a few that arelikely to be of interest to the broadest cross section of potential readers. After introducing thebasic problems of the Aryan invasion theory, he briefly discusses the famous Mittani documents from Asia Minor dating back to c. 1480 BC. These record a treaty between the Hittites and the Mittani in which Vedic deities have been invoked. Another Mittani document — a manual onhorse training — was found to contain technical terms in what is virtually pure Sanskrit. Neithershows any Iranian traces. This is therefore a serious blow to the orthodox view that the Iraniansand the Indians had not yet separated from their original Indo-Iranian 'homeland' until 1300 BC.The Rigveda, according to this theory, dates only from about 1200 BC at the earliest. But theMittani documents give evidence of Sanskrit and not the earlier Vedic.

This impression is confirmed by more finds. All later documents, there are now many, show onlythe influence of Sanskrit and Indic languages. Diehard invasionists may maintain that they arereally from an archaic form of Indo-Iranian, but the facts don't support the claim. As Sethna observes:...

most of the strange appellations have been reduced to their Sanskrit counterparts:

Artasumara = Ritusmara, "remembering the divine law [ritu]"

Artadama = Ritudharma, "abiding in the divine law"

Abirata = Abhiratha, "owner of a superior chariot" ...

Anyone who knows Sanskrit will recognize them. As Sethna observes: "We may without hesitation assert that hardly any of the Indo-Iranian looking names fall outside Sanskrit to raise the presumption of a possible origin outside India for the ancestors of the Rigvedic seers." (pp32-33) So the influence of Sanskrit on these documents is undeniable.

In Chapter 5, the author gives an interesting discussion of the spoked wheel which was known to the Rigvedic seers and also the Harappans. The former is obvious to anyone familiar with the Rigveda, for example, the great hymn I.164 by Dirghatamas. At the same time, I find it interesting that no one (except a historian of science like Seidenberg) seems to have noticed that Baudhayana in his Sulba sutra gives an ingenious mathematical method for designing spoked wheels. It is one of the most interesting mathematical applications of antiquity.

Chapters 8 and 9 discuss the origin and presence of the Aryans in antiquity. Sethna feels that if the Aryans have are to be regarded as outsiders, their original homeland will have to be placed inthe Arctic regions; the Rigveda permits no other interpretation. This in a circuitous fashion can be made to support the thesis that the expansion of the Aryans in India was from east to west. This as I pointed out in my review of Talageri's book has some literary support. There is noevidence whatsoever for a movement from the northwest to the Ganga valley before the drying up of the Sarasvati river. The other chapters are all interesting, for Sethna, in addition to being anoutstanding scholar has a talent for shedding fresh light on problems by examining them inunusual ways. This brings me to the five Supplements that were added in the second edition.

The Supplements are all interesting, but I’ll cover the last four which will be of the greatest interest. In Supplement II, Sethna takes up the issue of the horse which was believed to be absentamong the Harappans but is obviously important in the Rigveda. Much has been made of thesupposed fact that the Harappan seals do not depict horses, and therefore the horse riding Aryans must have come later. That is, the Harappans must have been pre-Rigveda. This ‘argument by silence’ is not without risk. As Sethna points out, there is no depiction of the cow either, but seals depicting the bull are commonplace. From this are we to conclude that the Harappans had perfected a method of raising bulls without cows?

(Incidentally, it is wrong to say that the horse is not found on the Harappan seals. As Jha pointedout to me, the horse is depicted on at least one seal. It carries the message which, when deciphered reads, "arko ha asva" meaning "Sun like the horse". It is a clear reference to thesymbolism of the Vajasaneya Samhita of the Yajurveda. — Editor)

All this has now been rendered moot by more recent discoveries about the horse in ancient India. As Sethna notes, the Neolithic sites of Koldihwa and Mahagara have yielded evidence for the presence of the domesticated horse in India dating back to 6570 BC. This is far anterior to anything known in Eurasia. Thus the prominence of the horse in the Rigvedic lore is entirely consistent with indigenous origin of the Vedic Aryans. This is not to say that the Central Asianbreed did not become more popular later; after all they have always been recognized to be asuperior breed. But that does not in anyway contradict the presence or the domestication of theIndian horse. There is now evidence of Uralic (Central Asiatic) linguistic borrowings from the Rigveda (p 278). The knowledge of the horse goes back in India to well before the seventh millennium BC.

In Supplement III, the question shifts to the date of the Harappan civilization. It is of coursewidely known that the radiocarbon method tends to underestimate ancient dates. As a result,these dates have to properly calibrated which is something of an art. Initially, the ending of theHarappan civilization was given as 1500 BC to make it coincide with the postulated date of theAryan invasion. Even a staunch invasionist like Mortimer Wheeler could not find scientific support for it and opted for 1700 BC. Possehl now finds it impossible for its end to be later than 1800 BC. (It may in fact go further back — Editor)

In Supplement IV, Sethna expresses his views on the archaeological finds at Dwaraka reportedby marine archaeologist S.R. Rao. He seems to agree with Rao in attributing the inundation of Dwaraka to the flood following the death of Sri Krishna of the Mahabharata. This in turn means assigning 1400 BC for the Mahabharata War. How are we to justify this? Even setting aside the astronomical data which points to c. 3100 BC for the War, this contradicts Sethna's own determination that the Harappan civilization belonged to the Sutra period. The Sutra texts definitely know both the War and the Mahabharata characters. What happens to Panini's famous sutr — vasudevarjunabhyam vun? Or, how about the Chandogya Upanisad which knows Krishna the Son of Devaki? I suggest that we better not be hasty in drawing too broad conclusions from scanty archaeological data.

One of the inscriptions found at Dwaraka is claimed to read: 'Maha-kacha shah-pa' which is said to mean 'Lord of the sea, protect'. But this is based on Rao’s attempted decipherment of the Indusscript which we now know to be wrong. This is insufficient ground on which to assign the site to the Mahabharata period. The date of Rao’s excavation is contemporary with the Kassite Empire in Babylon. Rao himself has found Kassite artifacts at the site. This suggests that the Dwarakathat Rao has excavated may have been a Kassite colony.

This brings me to Sethna's monumental Supplemental V. A few years from now Paropla's thesisis likely to be seen as the last hurrah of the Aryan invasion theory. Asko Poropla's work isscholarly and contains many significant contributions. But in the final analysis, his theory thatthe Aryans entered India in the second millennium BC is simply not tenable; it runs into toomany contradictions. Even Parpola is forced to acknowledge that evidence for earlier Aryan presence is too strong; so he is forced into the argument that some Aryans came earlier but themain wave came in the second millennium. This is not very convincing. His attempt to decipherthe Indus script assuming it to be proto Dravidian is also a failure.

Sethna's 220 page-long Supplement V on Parpola’s work is truly comprehensive and summarizes both sides of the Aryan invasion theory. The article is somewhat technical but absolutely indispensable for any student of ancient history, and not just of India. In this review, I can only touch on a small part of it.

One of the more interesting (and important) finds reported by Sethna is evidence regarding the domestication of the horse in South India in very ancient times. Evidence for the presence of wild horse as well as the domesticated variety has been forthcoming in India going back toNeolithic times (pp 219-222). Remains of the domesticated horse have been discovered in theVindhyas and the Ganga valley going back to the fifth and even the sixth millennium BC. Ialready noted some of its implications earlier.

Then there is the issue of linguistics. Ever since the discovery of Sanskrit by European scholarsin the eighteenth century, the Indo-European homeland of the hypothetical ancestors of theIndian and the European speakers of this great language family has been the Holy Grail of historical linguistics. Unfortunately, unrestrained speculation and its recent politicization by Indian Marxists has placed the whole field in some disrepute. As an extreme case one can cite a Marxist scholar completely ignorant of Sanskrit invoking something she calls Old Indo-Aryan to 'prove' that Aryan speakers could not have been native to India. It is not surprising that such appeals to non-existent languages by non-linguists should have brought some discredit to the field.

Leaving aside such exercises, we may note that comparative linguists have constructed a proto Indo-European — actually several of them — which they claim to be the ancestor of Sanskrit. It is well to note that neither comparative linguistics nor such reconstructions would be feasible without Sanskrit. The question now is — where was this Indo-European homeland if it ever existed? A point to be noted is that no language older than the Rigvedic Sanskrit is known. And the Rigvedia knows no homeland other than India. That is, if there was an Indo-European homeland, all evidence points to India. Sethna quotes the distinguished linguist Satya Swarup Misra on this point:

...Sanskrit is in all other respects nearer to proto-Indo-European than any other Indo-European historical language. This is a pointer to the fact that the place where Sanskritexists or existed has a claim to be the original home of the Indo-Europeans. Greek,Hittite, Latin, etc. belong to a much later chrono-logical change: on the basis of linguistic change they are comparable to Middle Indo-Aryan ...

Thus Sanskrit is the most archaic Indo-European language and it also retains Indo-European flora and fauna quite appreciably. Therefore if India is accepted as the originalhome of the Indo-Europeans speakers many of the complications of the Aryan problem will be solved. (pp 273-274)


The key here is that the most natural solution to the problem is to accept India as the original home. In my review of Talageri's book I observed how the historical puzzles in the Puranic and Vedic accounts can be reconciled once we drop the idea of the foreign origin of the Aryans. This leads to the recognition that the movement of the ancient Aryan dynasties in ancient India was from east to west. Thanks to all this, we are now beginning to get a fairly coherent picture of ancient India. This makes the Aryan presence in India very much earlier than what history books tell us. And this early Indian presence of the Aryans is strongly supported by archaeology.

A particularly telling discovery in this regard is that of fire-altars at various Harappan sites like Kalibangan. This is very strong evidence for the Harappan civilization being Vedic Aryan. Even a staunch invasionist like Parpola is forced to acknowledge that the fire-altars of Lothal and Kalibangan, "... carry with them an indication of Indo-Aryan presence." (p 308)

This has far-reaching implications for history and chronology. As Seidenberg has shown, all of ancient mathematics evolved from the Sulbasutras, or 'Vedic mathematics' as they are often called. This places the mathematics of the Sulbas in the early centuries of the third millennium BC if not earlier. The Sulbas, of which the Baudhayana Sulba is the oldest and the most important, were composed explicitly to serve as technical manuals for the construction of fire-altars. This I believe is clinching evidence that the Harappans were Vedic Aryans of the Sutra period. If anything, some of the Sutra literature, at least the mathematical knowledge contained in the Sulba sutras already existed prior to the Harappan civilization. (This also has the merit of accounting for the science behind the architectural achievements of the Harappans. — Editor )

I will mention one more key piece of evidence. Sethna regards the knowledge of silver as post Rigveda. It is true that the Rigveda does not know silver; rajata, which appears only once in the Rigveda, is generic for white. Silver working began around 4000 BC. On the strength of thisSethna concludes that the bulk of the Rigveda must have existed by 4000 BC. This makes the Harappan Civilization post-Rigveda. This is exactly what the Harappan seals also, following the decipherment tell us.

In this review I have done no more than highlight a few of the treasures found in Sethna's book,particularly his great Supplement V. There is a great deal more — from linguistics to literaryinterpretations to comparative mythology and archaeology. In short, The Problem of Aryan Origins is required reading for every serious student of history.

Dr. N.S. Rajaram
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

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Publication Date: April 01, 2000
Authors: N. Jha, Navaratna Srinivasa Rajaram
The deciphered Indus script: methodology, readings, interpretations

Review by Michel Danino
Published on Nov 12, 2000 in The Organiser
One of the most unyielding riddles of Indian prehistory has been the one presented by the Indus script—the mysterious symbols delicately engraved on thousands of small steatite seals found in ancient cities of the Indus or Harappan civilization. Those cities—the best-known of them Mohenjo-daro, Harappa, Lothal, Dholavira—date back nearly 4500 years, which makes the Indus script one of the oldest in the world, contemporary with Mesopotamian cuneiform scripts or Egyptian hieroglyphics, for instance. Most of those other ancient scripts, also the Maya, the Linear B of ancient Crete, have been unravelled by decades of scholarly labour, debate, even controversy, often also by strokes of genius. Yet the Indus script has proved a hard nut to crack and has resisted generations of savants of all kinds since it came to light in the 1920s. So much so that whoever finally succeeds is assured of going down to posterity ! So far, more than a hundred solutions have been proposed by Western and Indian archaeologists, epigraphists and other experts : some (such as Father Heras or Asko Parpola) have read a Dravidian language, others (such as the well-known archaeologist Dr. S. R. Rao) have found a type of Sanskrit, yet others numeric codes or various symbol systems. But the fact remains that no interpretation has met with general or even widespread acceptance, and some scholars have even despaired of the script being ever understood. As a result, any new claim of a solution—and they keep coming up regularly—is met with scepticism, if not weariness, rather than excitement.

There are good reasons for this pessimism. First, the lack of agreement on the type of language underlying the script, as the cultural background of the Harappan civilization remains itself a matter of debate. Second, none of the inscribed seals, pieces of pottery etc. found so far bears a bilingual text : were a text, however short, to be found written in another script alongside the Indus (as was the case with the famous Rosetta stone which gave Champollion the clue to the hieroglyphics), we would get some definite clues. Third, most of the inscriptions found so far are strikingly short, usually under ten or fifteen characters, leaving much room to conjecture and not enough to independent verification. Fourth, scholars from different schools of thought have tended to work in isolation rather than in collaboration, and that of course has done nothing to hasten towards a solution.

One decipherment that has received some publicity in recent years is that of N. Jha, an epigraphist and Vedic scholar, first proposed in his brief book, Vedic Glossary on Indus Seals published in 1996. Soon afterwards, N. S. Rajaram, a multifaceted scholar with several books on ancient India to his credit, endorsed Jha’s work, and joined him in further research on the script. Together they have published the book under review, which offers a more thorough exposition of Jha’s methodology and findings. The very fact that the book includes readings for nearly 600 Indus inscriptions—something very few other proposed decipherments have provided—should be enough to arrest the attention of any objective student of the Indus civilization.

The book’s first chapters offers a background to the Indus Valley civilization and the whole problem of a supposed Aryan invasion of India at or just after the end of that civilization. Although the “Aryan Invasion theory,” the child of nineteenth-century European Indologists, continues to figure in Indian history textbooks, most archaeologists—whether Indian or Western—have now rejected it, for the simple reason that there is not a shred of evidence for it on the ground, and it is inconceivable that such a massive disruption in the history of the subcontinent would have left no physical trace of any sort. On the contrary, the one fact that emerges from recent archaeological investigations is the striking continuity of the Indian civilization from pre- to post-Harappan times, and in the absence of any sign of warfare or man-made destruction in the Indus cities, large-scale natural calamities remain the best explanation for the slow disintegration of the Harappan urban structure. Rajaram, the author of most of the book’s writing, is forthright in his conviction that with the Aryan invasion now out of the way, we need look no farther than the Indus cities to find the Vedic Aryans : “The vast body of primary literature from the Vedic period has been completely divorced from Harappan archaeology. This has meant that this great literature and its creators have no archaeological existence. In our view, the correct approach to breaking this deadlock is by a combination of likes—a study of primary data from archaeology alongside the primary literature from ancient periods.”

There lies in fact the originality of Jha’s approach to the Indus script. Struck by a verse in the Mahabharata (Shanti Parva, 342.73) which records Yaska’s effort to compile ancient Vedic glossaries “lost buried in the depths”, Jha wondered if there could be a connection between Yaska’s Nighantu and the seals. That insight led him to develop his method, and many of the words he reads on the seals are indeed listed in the Nighantu. That in itself would prove nothing, since many before Jha have read on the seals just what they were expecting to find, but the elaborate consonantal system described in the core of the book certainly presents at first sight a consistent picture. According to Jha, the Indus script contained almost no vowels, a feature too of several other scripts, such as ancient Hebrew. Most of the signs are therefore consonants or composite consonants. One notable exception is the famous U-shaped letter which has caused so much ink to flow in the scholarly world : Jha sees in it a “generic vowel” used to denote words beginning with any vowel. As regards the large number of distinct signs used in the Indus script (well over 400), many are accounted for as composite signs, some of them showing an embryonic vowel stroke system, and the rest as variants, not an unreasonable hypothesis as the Indus script covered a very wide geographical area and at least a millennium. A number of tables expound the values for the signs, and even a layman can note that Jha and Rajaram do not depart from the attributed values.

In addition, Jha links the mysterious unicorn and the three-headed creature often depicted on the seals to passages in the Mahabharata describing just such symbols. This is a novel observation which, script apart, deserves the attention of archaeologists.

So then, what do the seals tell us according to the authors ? They yield Sanskrit words written in the pithy Sutra style. Some inscriptions do contain names of gods, as was to be expected, for example “Indra” next to the representation of a bull, a symbol often associated with this god in the Rig-Veda. Agni, Rudra, Rama and Sita and other deities also find mention.

The inscription on the famous Pasupati seal, reads isadyatta mara, which is listed in the Nighantu (2.22) and means “evil forces subdued by Isha,” Isha being another name of Shiva. But apart from such divine invocations, more mundane messages are engraved, from “a kitchen” or “mosquito” to “people are working by fire at night to stop the flow of flooding waters.” If the readings are accepted, they provide a surprisingly vivid picture of Harappan society.

Well-produced, wide in scope, written in a lucid and racy style, the book is however not free of defects. The text tends to be repetitive, especially in the first chapters, at times going round in circles. The reproductions of the seals are generally poor, especially the one supposed to represent a horse, which looks more like a line-drawing ; in view of its importance (conventional archaeology asserts that the true horse is never represented on the seals), the reader is left wishing for a good photograph. Also, the pictorial motifs found on the seals are sometimes questionably described (for instance those on the seal called “Seven goddesses”). In fact, the interpretation of such motifs often seems rather forced. Finally, the parallels with the geometrical formulas found in the Sulba-Sutras are not sufficiently worked out to be convincing.

All those limitations, however, are incidental, for the central question is whether the script has finally been cracked or not. One legitimate objection would be that the almost total absence of vowel signs allows too much freedom of interpretation ; only a fuller publication covering all known 3,500 seals, or else the discovery of a longer text, could remove such a doubt. Expectedly, Jha’s decipherment has been fiercely attacked by a few conventional scholars, who will not bear to hear anything in the shape of a Harappan-Vedic equation—an equation which yet makes a lot of sense from archaeological and cultural standpoints. Expectedly too, none of those detractors has so far bothered to offer a reasoned and detailed critique of Jha’s methodology and its technical aspects—perhaps even to study them at all. What is needed is an objective scrutiny by experts in an open-minded scientific spirit, something rarer in the scholarly world than one would expect. We may have to wait for a few years for the dust to settle and a sober verdict to emerge.

If Jha’s and Rajaram’s work fails to stand the test of time, it will only go to swell the long list of ingenious but discarded hypotheses on the most ancient script of the subcontinent. If, on the other hand, it has finally solved the riddle—or even taken a few real steps towards doing so—then we shall hear about it again, and the consequences for our understanding of the roots of Indian civilization will be momentous.
Later on Dr. N.S. Rajaram wrote an article

Published on May 05, 2012
By Dr. N.S. Rajaram
Looking Beyond The Indus Script: Story Of Vedic Harappans
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

:D :D
EUREKA! Got it!

First let me post the facts so that I can access them for future reference. Long before Rawlinson "deciphered" the Behistun inscriptions, two people, Eugène Burnouf and Christian Lassen of Bonn had figured out a connection between Sanskrit and old Perisan. Both were Sanskrit scholars, and as Dr Rajaram has pointed out in the link posted above by Rajesh, no one who knows any Sanskrit can fail to notice the link between Old Persian of the Behistun Inscription and Sanskrit. If you allow for errors in the decipherment (which I intend to study separately) the fukkin "Old Persian" language IS Sanskrit.

So here you have the bluff played by linguists upon us. They call Old Persian and Sanskrit as "Sister languages". Here is a clear case of circular argument. First they translate the Behistun inscriptions using Sanskrit, The entire friggin meaning is translated using Sanskrit because even with all the errors of decoding the words are recognizable as Sanskrit. Then the say "Hey this is a sister language of Sanskrit so we date Sanskrit at the same time as this language"

This is infuriating bullshit. These linguists are not all scholars. They have a healthy complement of liars among them
Last edited by shiv on 07 Jul 2012 20:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Off-Topic: India's Scientific Heritage

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Publication Date: June 8, 2012
Author: Stephen Knapp
Advancements of Ancient India's Vedic Culture: The Planet's Earliest Civilization and How it Influenced the World

Relevant:
Chap 23 (246)
THE ARYAN INVASION THEORY
  • The Development of the Aryan Invasion Theory
  • Max Muller Denies His Own Theory
  • The Damage Done by the Aryan Invasion Theory
  • Objections to the Aryan Invasion Theory
  • Misleading Dates of the Aryan Invasion Theory
  • The Sarasvati River in the Rig Veda
  • Proof of the Sarasvati River
  • The Demise of the Sarasvati River
  • Location of Vinashana
  • The Arguments of No Horse in Harappa
  • The Urban or Rural Argument
  • Deciphering the Indus Seals
  • Genetics Show an East to West Movement
  • Conclusion: There Never was any Aryan Invasion
  • Scholars who Believe in the False History of India are a Dying Breed
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ Different dialects of the same language, in a similar relation to all the dialects of Hindi?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

An AIT-Nazi Article, but helpful

Published on Dec 15, 2006
By Prods Oktor Skjærvø
Iran vi. Iranian Languages and Scripts

Wikipedia says on Old Persian
The oldest date of use of Old Persian as a spoken language is not precisely known. According to certain historical assumptions about the early history and origin of ancient Persians in south-western Iran (where Achaemenids hailed from), Old Persian was originally spoken by a tribe called Parsuwash who arrived in the Iranian Plateau early in the 1st millennium BCE and finally migrated down into the area of present day Fārs province and their language, i.e. Old Persian, became the official language of the Achaemenid kings.[4] Assyrian records, which in fact provide the earliest evidence for ancient Iranians (Persian and Median) presence on the Iranian Plateau, give a good chronology but only an approximate geographical indication of ancient Persians. In these records of the 9th century BCE, Parsuwash (along with Matai of Median) are first mentioned in the area of Lake Urmia in the records of Shalmaneser III.[5] The exact identity of the Parsuwash is yet to be determined but from a linguistic viewpoint the word matches Old Persian pārsa itself coming directly from the older word *pārćwa[PIE ?]. Also as Old Persian contains many words from another extinct Iranian language, Median, according to P. O. Skjærvø it is probable that Old Persian had already been spoken before formation of the Achaemenid Empire and during most of the first half of the first millennium BCE
Actually I was initially confused that Old Persian could be Sanskrit or a close dialect, as I had read that it was prevalent in Southwestern Iran, which would have been far from India. But it seems the ParSus, a subtribe of the Anus, took it there.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Different dialects of the same language, in a similar relation to all the dialects of Hindi?
Arun even if you accept the date of 1500 BC for Rig Vedic Sanskrit, how does Old Persian of Darius 500 BC become a "sister" language? Old Persian is a derivative of Sanskrit as is Avestan.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

New Theory on the Origin and Evolution of Brahmi Alphabet by A. Banerjee
Publisher: Inr (2006)
Inscriptions have been discovered from Indus culture areas, belonging to the intervening centuries between the eclipse of this culture and the appearance of Asokan edicts. The author analyses them and shows a distinct continuity of evolution of the characters from Indus to Brahmi script in the lapse of 2000 BC to 500 BC.

Phonetics of Brahmi characters have been successfully used by Professor B.B. Chakravorty as bridges to decipher Indus legends.

Similarly, Dr. S.K. Rao has used the phonetics of a majority of Semitic characters similar in shape to the Indus pictograms and obtained the picture of a relevant logical pre-Vedic language on decipherment.

The author has established that all Brahmi characters excepting three on four can be created by applying the principle of acrophony to the ancient Indo-Aryan language. The remaining letter were either created from Austric words or from other foreign languages, when trade contacts grew intensively around fourth-fifth century BC. Therefore, he concluded the source of both Brahmi and Semitic alphabets are the Indust character themselves.
Contents
Preface
1. Introduction
2. Indus Characters Through the Ages
3. Brahmi Used as a Bridge to Decipher Indus Legends
4. Relation between the Indus Script and Semitic Alphabet
5 Antiquity of the Brahmi Script
6. Introduction and Evolution of Brahmi Letters
7. Creation of Vowels and Later Consonants
8. Evolution Chart of Brahmi Letters
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Books @openlibrary.org, one can read online

Some books by Christian Lassen
He "found" out the similarity between Sanskrit and Persian

Image

Publication Date: 1836
Author: Christian Lassen
Die altpersischen Keil-Inschriften von Persepolis, Entzifferung des Alphabets und Erklärung des ..

Image

Publication Date: 1838
Author: Christian Lassen
Zur Geschichte der griechischen und Indoskythischen Könige in Baktrien, Kabul und Indien: durch Entzifferung der Altkabulischen Legenden auf ihren Münzen.

Image

Publication Date: 1838
Author: Christian Lassen
Anthologia sanscritica glossario instrvcta

Couldn't find Band I

Image

Publication Date: First Edition (1847), 1867
Author: Christian Lassen
Alterthusmskunde (Band II)

Image

Publication Date: 1858
Author: Christian Lassen
Alterthusmskunde Band III


Image

Publication Date: 1861
Author: Christian Lassen
Alterthusmskunde (Band IV)

They are in German. Sorry!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Anurag »

This was way too tempting to pass on! Enjoy!

The Big Fight: Will Science be able to define God?
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bi ... /238574?hp
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by svinayak »

THis is the current EJ topic in US with Creationism becoming popular
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

I think the western definition of the word "myth" is different from what we define it. For example their stories have a strong definition towards it, and especially made stories for it, from mermaids to other non-existent entities. Indian myth is not the same.. our stories are actually based on real events, and then we made myth characters from it with added flavor by word of mouth. so, our stories are based on facts, but not the added or augmented story punch lines and magical aspects that were introduced to make people interested and carry the stories towards future.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by svinayak »

Christian western words do not have an equivalent in Indian languages and they are not the same
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

SaiK wrote:I think the western definition of the word "myth" is different from what we define it. For example their stories have a strong definition towards it, and especially made stories for it, from mermaids to other non-existent entities. Indian myth is not the same.. our stories are actually based on real events, and then we made myth characters from it with added flavor by word of mouth. so, our stories are based on facts, but not the added or augmented story punch lines and magical aspects that were introduced to make people interested and carry the stories towards future.
Interesting observation, and I believe that if we are to communicate in English we do need to pay attention to what words are used and how and where.

Now here are two different sources that explain the usage of the word:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?all ... hmode=none
myth (n.)
1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale. Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud, "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
The term "myth" can be used pejoratively by both religious and non-religious people. By defining another person's religious stories and beliefs as mythology, one implies that they are less real or true than one's own religious stories and beliefs.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ShauryaT »

Murugan wrote:New Theory on the Origin and Evolution of Brahmi Alphabet by A. Banerjee
Publisher: Inr (2006)
Ofcourse, Witzel et al dispute this and claim the Indus scrolls, do not represent a script for a language.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

न ही श्रुति शतं अपि 'शितोग्नी: अप्राकशो वा' इति ब्रुवत प्रामाण्यम उपैति |

"even a hundred srutis (veds and upanishads) declaring 'fire is cold or emits no light' would not attain authority (as valid source of knowledge)

-Adi Shankaracharya
Bhagvad Gita Bhashya, Chapter 18, Shlok 18
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

Aryabhat refer to Kaliyug in Aryabhatiyam III, 10

सष्टयब्दानाम सष्टिर्यदा व्यतितास्त्रय्श्च युग पादा: |
त्र्यधिका विशतिरब्दा: तदेह मम जन्मनो अतीता : ||

"When sixty times sixty years (3600 years) and three quarters of the yuga have elapsed (i.e.in the running kaliyug), twenty three years have then passed since my birth."

Aryabhat was born on 21 March 476 AD. Incidentally our Indian astronomers have taken the beginning of the present kaliyug as falling at the midnight between 17th and 18th February 3102 BC in the midnight (ardhratrika system) and at the mean sunrise on February 18, 3102 BC in the sunrise (audayika system)

- Indian Mathematics & Astronomy, Some Landmarks, Dr S Balachandra Rao
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Murugan ji,

There are many great things about the Hindu Samaj, and one of them is its decentralization. As far as philosophy is concerned, unlike other religions, there is absolutely no need for dogma or a single creed, and everybody can meditate on his or her preferred path to Moksha, or on the various other philosophical aspects.

But sometimes what gets my goat is that this decentralization has also led to a weakening of interaction and communication among the various authorities.

The time reckoning, the calendar, is a reference system based on which people give events their dates. It is the greatest common in a Sanskriti, even more important than a common language, e.g. Sanskrit. So there should be an absolute consensus among the Hindu authorities on what Yuga it is, and perhaps how long the various Manvantars are considered. But Yuga is most important.

Here is the passage from Wikipedia. I guess there is some truth to it.
The duration and chronological starting point in human history of Kali Yuga has given rise to different evaluations and interpretations. According to one of them, the Surya Siddhanta, Kali Yuga began at midnight (00:00) on 18 February 3102 BCE in the proleptic Julian calendar, or 23 January 3102 BC in the proleptic Gregorian calendar. This date is also considered by many Hindus to be the day that Krishna left Earth to return to his abode. Most interpreters of Hindu scriptures believe that Earth is currently in Kali Yuga. Many authorities such as Swami Sri Yukteswar, and Paramhansa Yogananda believe that it is now Dvapara Yuga. Many others like Aurbindo Ghosh have stated that Kali Yuga is now over. The Kali Yuga is sometimes thought to last 432,000 years, although other durations have been proposed
In this case, I just don't understand how every person can start shooting off his mouth about the Hindu time reckoning as and how he wants.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by svinayak »

Many authorities such as Swami Sri Yukteswar, and Paramhansa Yogananda believe that it is now Dvapara Yuga
We are in a critical phase before the effects of the kali yuga are completely removed
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Image

Sri Yukteswar

The Holy Science is a book written by Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri in 1894 under the title Kaivalya Darsanam. This is from the Self-Realization group.

In the book, Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri explains the Yuga System and the error that has entered into the system.

Image

The Holy Book @scribd
Sri Yukteswar’s introduction to The Holy Science includes his explanation of the Yuga Cycle – revolutionary because of his premise that the earth is now in the age of Dwapara Yuga, not the Kali Yuga that most Indian pundits believe to be the current age. His theory is based on the idea that the sun “takes some star for its dual and revolves round it in about 24,000 years of our earth – a celestial phenomenon which causes the backward movement of the equinoctial points around the zodiac.” The common explanation for this celestial phenomenon is precession, the ‘wobbling’ rotating movement of the earth axis. Research into Sri Yukteswar’s explanation is being conducted by the Binary Research Institute.
He further states that:

The sun also has another motion by which it revolves round a grand center called Vishnu-Naabhi which is the seat of the creative power Brahma, the universal magnetism. Brahma regulates Dharma the mental virtues of the internal world. When the sun in its revolution round its dual come to the place nearest to this grand center the seat of Brahma (an event which takes place when the autumnal equinox comes to the first point of Aries) Dharma the mental virtue becomes so much developed that man can easily comprehend all, even the mysteries of Spirit.

In The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar concludes that we are currently in the beginning stages of Dwapara Yuga, which began around 1699 A.D. This now puts us in the year 311 Dwapara according to Sri Yukteswar. Thus, we are moving closer to the grand center, and will pass into Treta Yuga around the year 4099 A.D.
Another article on Wikipedia: Yuga
Sri Yukteswar's teachings on the yugas

The long count view of the yuga cycle with its vast time scale was challenged by the 19th/20th-century Indian yogi Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri, guru of Paramahansa Yogananda.

In his book, The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar explained that the descending phase of Satya Yuga lasts 4800 years, the Treta Yuga 3600 years, Dwapara Yuga 2400 years, and the Kali Yuga 1200 years. The ascending phase of the Kali Yuga then begins, also lasting 1200 years. The ascending phase of the Kali Yuga began in September 499 AD. Since September 1699, we have been in the ascending phase of the Dwapara Yuga, according to Sri Yukteswar.

In The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar wrote that the traditional or long count view is based on a misunderstanding. He says that at the end of the last descending Dvapara Yuga (about 700 BC), "Maharaja Yudhisthira, noticing the appearance of the dark Kali Yuga, made over his throne to his grandson [and]...together with all of his wise men...retired to the Himalaya Mountains... Thus there was none in the court...who could understand the principle of correctly accounting the ages of the several Yugas."

According to Sri Yukteswar, nobody wanted to announce the bad news of the beginning of the ascending Kali Yuga, so they kept adding years to the Dvapara date (at that time 2400 Dvapara) only retitling the epoch to Kali. As the Kali began to ascend again, scholars of the time recognized that there was a mistake in the date (then being called 3600+ Kali, even their texts said Kali had only 1200 years). "By way of reconciliation, they fancied that 1200 years, the real age of Kali, were not the ordinary years of our earth, but were so many daiva (or deva) years ("years of the gods"), consisting of 12 daiva months of 30 daiva days each, with each daiva day being equal to one ordinary solar year of our earth. Hence according to these men 1200 years of Kali Yuga must be equal to 432,000 years of our earth."

Sri Yukteswar explained that just as the cycle of day and night is caused by a celestial motion (the earth spinning on its axis in relation to the sun), and just as the cycle of the seasons are caused by a celestial motion (the earth with tilted axis orbiting the sun) so too is the yuga cycle (seen as the precession of the equinox), caused by a celestial motion. He explained this celestial motion as the movement of the whole solar system around another star. As our sun moves through this orbit, it takes the solar system (and earth) closer to and then further from a point in space known as the "grand centre" also called 'Vishnunabhi', which is the seat of the creative power, 'Brahma', [which]...regulates...the mental virtue of the internal world." He implied that it is the proximity of the earth and sun to this grand centre that determines which season of man or yuga it is.

Quoting from The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar states that our sun revolves round a grand center called Vishnunabhi, which is the seat of the creative power, Brahma, the universal magnetism. Brahma regulates dharma, the mental virtue of the internal world. Sri Yukteswar states: ...the sun, with its planets and their moons, takes some star for its dual and revolves round it in about 24,000 years of our earth.... Essentially, When the sun in its revolution round its dual comes to the place nearest to this grand center, the seat of Brahma...the mental virtue, becomes so much developed that man can easily comprehend all, even the mysteries of Spirit." Further, ...when the sun goes to the place in its orbit which is farthest from Brahma, the grand center...the mental virtue, comes to such a reduced state that man cannot grasp anything beyond the gross material creation. Paramahansa Yogananda, devotee of Sri Yukteswar, dates his forward in the book as 249 Dwapara (1949 AD). The period of 2400 years during which the sun passes through the 2/20th portion of its orbit is called Dwapara Yuga. Dharma, the mental virtue, is then in the second stage of development and is but half complete; the human intellect can then comprehend the fine matters of electricities and their attributes which are the creating principles of the external world.
2012 AD == 313 Dwapara Ascending Yuga.

Dwapara Ascending Yuga = DAY :wink:
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

From Wikipedia: Yuga
While the long yuga count is the most popular it does not correlate to any known celestial motion found in the Astronomical Almanac. The value of 24,000 years is within 7% of the modern astronomical calculation of one full precession of the equinox of 25,772 years. This phenomenon is observed as the stars moving retrograde across the sky at about 50 arc seconds per year and is thought to produce periods of warm ages and ice ages known as the Milankovitch cycle, thus the yuga cycle may have some basis in known terrestrial cycles.
We need an additional Yuga to compensate for the difference! 25,772 - 24,000 = 1,772 years. If we divide between ascending and descending then Yuga X = 886 years long.

Added Later: Not needed. See below.
Last edited by RajeshA on 08 Jul 2012 19:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Please read "The Holy Science" by Sri Yukteswar Giri. I find that he is a bit taken in by the glean of Britannia, but then in 1894 one would expect that from many Indians.

But his pointer to reconsider the values of the length of Yugas is welcome. I don't know what role that would play in Hindu spirituality, but his Yuga system makes sense.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Gus »

Some of you may have read/heard about the book 'Autobiography of a Yogi' by Paramahamsa Yogananda. Sri Yukteswar is his guru.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Binary Research Institute is doing some research and have some unconventional theories about the precession of the equinoxes.

They emphasize that the solar system is itself a dynamic system and not a static system, and that that needs to be considered when calculating the precession of equinoxes, etc.

This may have some repercussions on the dating of the past events in our scriptures. The software that has been used to calculate these events may need to be take this into consideration.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Pranav »

RajeshA wrote:Binary Research Institute is doing some research and have some unconventional theories about the precession of the equinoxes.

They emphasize that the solar system is itself a dynamic system and not a static system, and that that needs to be considered when calculating the precession of equinoxes, etc.

This may have some repercussions on the dating of the past events in our scriptures. The software that has been used to calculate these events may need to be take this into consideration.
Interesting, they seem to endorse Swami Yukeswar's theories, i.e. that the sun is revolving around a dual star.

Apparently, the distance of the sun from the grand center ("Vishnu Nabhi") as it goes round its dual, is what is supposed to determine the Yugas.

Also to be considered is the possibility that the rate of "precession" could be variable ... the calculated period of 25,772 years is based on the current rate. The Yukteswar model seems to allow for a variable rate, since the angular velocity of an object rotating in an elliptical orbit varies, and is highest when the object is closest to the body around which it is rotating.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Pranav ji,

very true. However Walter Cruttenden from Binary Research Institute still happens to give the Greeks most of the credit, even though he speaks about the much more advanced concepts of Vishnunabhi of the Hindus, as well as a correct duration of the Great Year - 24,000 solar years - the Yuga Cycle.

Published on Jul 16, 2009
By Walter Cruttenden
Response to The Precession Dialogues - BAUT Forum post

Image

Publication Date: September 22, 2005
Author: Walter Cruttenden
Lost Star of Myth And Time

There is a video to the book


There is also a review of the book here

By K. Kris Hirst, About.com Guide
Lost Star of Myth and Time: Dreaming of the World's Greater Purpose

Summary: The Solar System has a binary star, and both move around the Vishnunabhi, a point in space. This causes the "wobbling" effect which leads to the precession of the equinoxes. The whole precessions is 24,000 years long. In the original interpretation, as per Sri Yukteswar Giri, the sum of the yuga durations was the half-arc. Both ascending and descending arcs would make a whole Yuga Cycle. All very Indic system of time reckoning.

Thus we have given the world an astronomical period longer than the solar year! - the 24,000 Year Yuga-Cycle!

Binary Research Institute is providing the calculations.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Pranav »

RajeshA wrote:Pranav ji,

very true. However Walter Cruttenden from Binary Research Institute still happens to give the Greeks most of the credit, even though he speaks about the much more advanced concepts of Vishnunabhi of the Hindus, as well as a correct duration of the Great Year - 24,000 solar years - the Yuga Cycle.

Published on Jul 16, 2009
By Walter Cruttenden
Response to The Precession Dialogues - BAUT Forum post
Well the Greeks can be given credit for their relatively primitive geocentric model (Ptolemy), I suppose.

He does seem to cite Swami Yukteswar in the URL above.

Some very interesting excerpts -
If the sole cause of the earth’s changing orientation were local wobble (as dictated by current lunisolar theory) then the earth would change orientation relative to near objects (i.e. the planets, moon and sun), and far objects (i.e. quasars and other common points of reference) by the same amount. However, if the precession observable (earth’s changing orientation to the fixed stars) is mostly the result of a moving solar system (as found in the binary model), then there would be practically no local wobble, and the measurement of changes in the earth’s orientation would be different to objects “inside” the moving solar system than to objects “outside” the moving frame of the solar system.

This is exactly what our lunar studies have shown: the earth appears to change orientation to very distant objects at the rate of about 50” p/y while at the same time showing less than 1” p/y of change relative to objects within the moving solar system.
To test which model was more accurate over the last 100 years (Binary or Lunisolar) we have input our orbit parameters (24,000years and apoapsis in 500AD) as provided by Sri Yukteswar in his book, The Holy Science, published in 1894, and compared these against the leading astronomer of the time, the great Simon Newcomb, who refined his formula for precession around 1900:

Simon Newcomb’s precession calculations were quite lengthy but resulted in:
50.2564 + a constant of 0.000222” p/y (U.S. Navel Observatory 1900)

To find the binary model equivalent we apply Kepler’s laws to a body in a 24,000-year orbit (with mild eccentricity), 1500 years past apoapsis, which yields a current rate of change of .000349 in the year 2000. It would average slightly less than this for the preceding 100 years (and a bit more each year until periapsis).

The actual observed change between 1900, when the precession rate was 50.2564” p/y and the year 2000 when the rate was 50.290966” p/y (Astronomical Almanac) was 0.0337, equating to an annual rate of change of 0.000337” p/y over the last 100 years. Thus the Keplerian approach (based on the binary model) has proved to be 10 times more accurate than Simon Newcomb over the last 100 years.
By the way, how did you find out about these Binary Institute people?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Pranav wrote:By the way, how did you find out about these Binary Institute people?
"The Holy Science" Wikipedia page!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

Pranav wrote:
Also to be considered is the possibility that the rate of "precession" could be variable ... the calculated period of 25,772 years is based on the current rate. The Yukteswar model seems to allow for a variable rate, since the angular velocity of an object rotating in an elliptical orbit varies, and is highest when the object is closest to the body around which it is rotating.
Yes.

I am no mathematician, vedic scholar or astronomer, but I know that variability is likely in all natural systems. "Regularity" is always for less accurate measurements over smaller time slices. Even the precession is likely to be variable and that variability in turn driven by some other distant masses perhaps causing cycles of millions of years.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote:
Pranav wrote:
Also to be considered is the possibility that the rate of "precession" could be variable ... the calculated period of 25,772 years is based on the current rate. The Yukteswar model seems to allow for a variable rate, since the angular velocity of an object rotating in an elliptical orbit varies, and is highest when the object is closest to the body around which it is rotating.
Yes.

I am no mathematician, vedic scholar or astronomer, but I know that variability is likely in all natural systems. "regularity" is always for less accurate measurements over smaller time slices. Even the precession is likely to be variable and that variability in turn driven by some other distant masses perhaps causing cycles of millions of years.
In fact, the actual models used nowadays - explicitly acknowledge this variability. Moreover, it cannot entirely be satisfactorily modeled based on the many-body framework for solar-system [too many variables and too many unknowns all non-linearly related even in the PDE formulation - as well as additional unexplained terms that are needed when empirically fitted].

What is used is an "instantaneous" polynomial/truncated power series approximation, specifically stated to be valid for +/- so many thousands of years. The values have to be attuned empirically by observations.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

The paper above speaks of the variability of the precession of the equinoxes, but attributes this to the elliptical orbit around the Vishnunabhi.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by brihaspati »

ManishH ji once said, that the r->l transition was more predominant in RVedic to "classical Sanskrit", and not the reverse. There were many pages of discussion about the supposed "rhota" tendencies in RV, the "excessive" and devant-from-normal-phonological tendencies of using "r" instead of "l". "Sanskrit evolved from RV" and hence used the natural tendency to change all that r->l.

SHQ had started off learning my birth language first through learning about terms for "relatives", and immediately noted the similarity of derivations [in principle] of pronunciation simplifications in the dialect version compared to the formal, in her native German. When I was having discussion about our current topic today with her, and mentioned the "r->l" thingie, she immediately pointed out that "khulla" [like "khulla-tatah" ] in Sanskrit usage is often transferred to the "r" version in dialect.

Either rhotacization is also a natural tendency, which jeopardizes one of the time-directional dogmas of linguistics as regards RV versus Sanskrit, or there was a proto-Sanskrit or [Proto-Parkrit which would be the ancestor of proto-Sanskrit] in which "r" was preferred.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by brihaspati »

RajeshA wrote:The paper above speaks of the variability of the precession of the equinoxes, but attributes this to the elliptical orbit around the Vishnunabhi.
The variation is not regular - which it would be if it was entirely due to an elliptical orbit. In fact most motions about the virtual centre, whether the black hole at the centre of the galaxy or the passage through the non-uniform density spiral arms [or any modeled binary star] still does not entirely explain the observations- although they explain much, I agree.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Pranav »

RajeshA wrote:The paper above speaks of the variability of the precession of the equinoxes, but attributes this to the elliptical orbit around the Vishnunabhi.
The elliptical orbit is around the common center of mass of the sun and its hypothesized dual. Look at the animation at http://www.binaryresearchinstitute.org/ ... eory.shtml . This center of mass is not the Vishnu Nabhi.

But this motion leads to the variation of of the distance of the sun from the 'Vishnu Nabhi". At some points in the ellipse the Sun is close to the Vishnu Nabhi (Satya Yuga), and at other points it is far (Kali Yuga).
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RamaY »

RajeshA wrote:From Wikipedia: Yuga
While the long yuga count is the most popular it does not correlate to any known celestial motion found in the Astronomical Almanac. The value of 24,000 years is within 7% of the modern astronomical calculation of one full precession of the equinox of 25,772 years. This phenomenon is observed as the stars moving retrograde across the sky at about 50 arc seconds per year and is thought to produce periods of warm ages and ice ages known as the Milankovitch cycle, thus the yuga cycle may have some basis in known terrestrial cycles.
We need an additional Yuga to compensate for the difference! 25,772 - 24,000 = 1,772 years. If we divide between ascending and descending then Yuga X = 886 years long.

Added Later: Not needed. See below.
The sloka in Vyasa Bhagavatam says 26,000 for the precision of equinox rotation. It is how Dhruva was given the boon by Sri Vishnu. I think I posted this in "in the paths of stars thread'.
A_Gupta
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

http://www.orinst.ox.ac.uk/eanes/old_ir ... guage.html
Old Iranian at Undergraduate level
General Information

Old Iranian may be offered for the B. A. Hon. Oriental Studies degree as an "additional language" with Sanskrit, Persian, Classics or Egyptology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies. The course in Old Iranian lasts for six terms, and begins in the second year of the regular three-year Oriental Studies degree.

Students learn Old Persian and Avestan, and read the Achaemenian Kings' Old Persian cuneiform inscriptions, and a selection of Zoroastrian religious texts from the Avesta. The texts are studied both as linguistic documents, and as sources for the history, religion and culture of Ancient Iran.
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Sanskritists are able to start reading texts from the very beginning of the Old Iranian course, thanks to the close relationship between the Old Iranian languages and Old Indic. Persianists, Classicists and students in Egyptology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies have to devote some time to learning grammar, and elementary language instruction is provided for them during the first two terms. The Old Persian material is studied first, and students from all main subjects can normally expect to have read the most famous inscriptions by the end of their second term's work. The principal Zoroastrian prayers are introduced soon after students start to learn Avestan. These are followed by some Younger Avestan Yashts, some chapters of the Videvdat, and then by the Old Avestan Yasna Haptanhaiti, and finally the Gathas of the prophet himself (which are studied last because of their syntactic and stylistic difficulty).
RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

From "The Holy Science" Wikipedia page, as per Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri

Image
In The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar concludes that we are currently in the beginning stages of Dwapara Yuga, which began around 1699 A.D. This now puts us in the year 311 Dwapara according to Sri Yukteswar. Thus, we are moving closer to the grand center, and will pass into Treta Yuga around the year 4099 A.D.

If we represent the Yugas in a clock, the lowest spiritual time would be at 6 o'clock, approx. year 550 A.D., which is the center of Kali Yuga (more or less the Middle Ages), and the highest point is 12 o'clock, in the center of Satya Yuga (literally Age of Truth, as sat=truth), or Golden Age. It takes approx. 12,000 years from the lowest to the highest point, and about 24,000 in a complete turn. Now we would be at approx. 7 c'clock, ascending in Dwapara Yuga or Bronze Age which started in 1699.
Now
  • Satya Yuga = 4 x 1200 = 4800 years
  • Treta Yuga = 3 x 1200 = 3600 years
  • Dwapara Yuga = 2 x 1200 = 2400 years
  • Kali Yuga = 1 x 1200 = 1200 years
So if Dwapara Ascending Yuga (DAY) starts according to Sri Yukteswar in 1699 AD, then ...

Present Yuga Cycle
  • Descending Satya Yuga = 11,499 BC - 6,699 BC
  • Descending Treta Yuga = 6,699 BC - 3,099 BC
  • Descending Dwapara Yuga = 3,099 BC - 699 BC
  • Descending Kali Yuga = 699 BC - 499 AD
  • Ascending Kali Yuga = 499 AD - 1,699 AD
  • Ascending Dwapara Yuga = 1,699 AD - 4,099 AD
  • Ascending Treta Yuga = 4,099 AD - 7,699 AD
  • Ascending Satya Yuga = 7,699 AD - 12,499 AD
With Sri Yukteswar's concept of Yugas, at the socio-political-spiritual level, he is right, in the ascending Kali Yuga, we did have the Islamic rulers over India, whose rule started to fall apart around 1700 AD. Also around 11,499 BC the glaciers started to melt, and rivers started flowing in (North) India. So also the right time to start the Yuga Cycle. However Kali Yuga is supposed to start on 23 January 3102 BC in the proleptic Gregorian calendar after Lord Krishna left the physical form of his avatar. So this would require a lot of changes in the Hindu time reckoning.

Today we are in Ascending Dwapara Yuga 313 ADY :wink:

However if we take 3102 BC as the start of the Descending Kali Yuga, then ...
  • Descending Satya Yuga = 13,902 BC - 9,102 BC
  • Descending Treta Yuga = 9,102 BC - 5,502 BC
  • Descending Dwapara Yuga = 5,502 BC - 3,102 BC
  • Descending Kali Yuga = 3,102 BC - 1,902 BC
  • Ascending Kali Yuga = 1,902 BC - 702 BC
  • Ascending Dwapara Yuga = 702 BC - 1,702 AD
  • Ascending Treta Yuga = 1,702 AD - 5,302 AD
  • Ascending Satya Yuga = 5,302 AD - 10,102 AD
So, it is also a possibility!

Today we are in Ascending Treta Yuga 310 ATY.
Last edited by RajeshA on 08 Jul 2012 21:17, edited 2 times in total.
A_Gupta
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

Elements of the comparative grammar of the Indo-Germanic languages : a concise exposition of the history of Sanskrit, Old Iranian (Avestic and old Persian), Old Armenian, Old Greek, Latin, Umbrian-Samnitic, Old Irish, Gothic, Old High German, Lithuanian and Old Bulgarian (1888)

Author: Brugmann, Karl, 1849-1919; Wright, Joseph, 1855-1930; Conway, Robert Seymour, 1864-1933; Rouse, W. H. D. (William Henry Denham), 1863-1950

http://archive.org/details/elementsofcompar04bruguoft
PDF downloadable from there.
svinayak
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by svinayak »

RajeshA wrote:
By K. Kris Hirst, About.com Guide
Lost Star of Myth and Time: Dreaming of the World's Greater Purpose

Summary: The Solar System has a binary star, and both move around the Vishnunabhi, a point in space. This causes the "wobbling" effect which leads to the precession of the equinoxes. The whole precessions is 24,000 years long. In the original interpretation, as per Sri Yukteswar Giri, the sum of the yuga durations was the half-arc. Both ascending and descending arcs would make a whole Yuga Cycle. All very Indic system of time reckoning.

Thus we have given the world an astronomical period longer than the solar year! - the 24,000 Year Yuga-Cycle!

Binary Research Institute is providing the calculations.
There is no visual of the Indian ancient civilization in that video.
There is consistant attempt to put every origin to the Greek civilization and now if there is any gap they are making sure that it is also covered in the Greek.

They are trying to copy what is in other parts and create a greek equivalent.
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