Indian Naval Discussion

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 06 Jul 2012 03:38

SaiK wrote:^unless the strategic aspect has any interest IN has envisaged or planning? do you think IN needs that place badly?

Perhaps this can only be looked in a positive manner. The question could not be why but be why not. 2 golden coins onlee. One can hardly say that in future it will be any less useful especially especially when Indians have improved relations with Africa. For more please refer this message here: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1306973

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jul 2012 04:42

The offer should be seized with alacrity.The PLAN are making huge moves into Africa,setting up bases there,as it sees Africa as its prime source of raw materials and energy .Just look at how crucial Diego Garcia is to the US in the IOR.But do our mandarins of the MMEA/MOD have enough inelligence to work out the modalities

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2012 07:16

I was about to post the same article...I ran to post this article....we need this - bigtime both to have a unsinkable aircraft and naval base there and to monitor the Sino-US movements.

we can partially meet the cost of maintaining logistics for the base by leasing out a part of it to some tourism developers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 08:00

Philip wrote:The offer should be seized with alacrity.

Then we should to get on with it ASAP.

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Jul 2012 12:03

rajrang wrote:Does this link belong here?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 697220.cms

Should go to the strategic discussions thread.

Anyway as i said ., these islands could be developed into a mini diego garcia for the IN

Tourism is not such a feasible option for india ., makes no sense to develop tourism infrastructure here .. to benefit whom ?

Diego garcia has total land area of 60 sq km., the main atoll itself is about 20 km2 ., these 2 islands combined is 25 km2

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Jul 2012 12:17

Wiki has something else to say also

In early December 2006, the Indian newspaper, the Times of India, carried a series of reports that Mauritius had suggested transferring the Agalegas to India on a long lease in order to develop tourist infrastructure

In an interview granted to the Times of India, the Mauritian Deputy Premier, Xavier-Luc Duval, an ethnic Creole himself, denied that there was any move by the Mauritian government to cede or lease the islands to India.

source wikipedia

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Jul 2012 12:26

The location of the islands i quite compelling i should say .. very very nice for a submarine base .Ideal if i may say so., ecology be dam*** ! A submarine base for IN here could transform IOC control rivaling the USN

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 06 Jul 2012 13:26

A IN Sub base would be great with a small IAF FOB would also be great as well. I believe pro india countries like Mauritius, Maldives, Afghanisthan, Mongolia, Tajikistan are ideal candidates for exports of Dhruv / Rudra, LCA mk-1/2, Arjuns, FICVs, Akash etc. I think it is very cool that we have quite a few close relations with these nations and we need to expand our influence in these regions and the best way for that is to sell our arms.

Afghanisthan could easily use 5 squadrons of LCA mk-1, 3 squadrons of Dhruv, 1 Squdron of Rudra and 5 squadrons of our future ULH being developed. A sale of 500 Arjun tanks and 500 FICV to Afghanisthan can be easily pulled off.

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Jul 2012 13:45

Pic below for reference

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2012 14:21

we need bases in madagascar, mauritius which are both large islands for the southern IOR/horn of africa/cape of good hope duty

and *socotra* for the mouth of the red sea...djibouti and seychelles are under control of the western cabal.

leasing some base in Bali or Java would be a good idea too, preferably facing south but easy access via straits to the north...

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Jul 2012 14:52

Thats a huge distance for any conventional vessel to be deployed and operated.
What value will a base in Mauritius or Madagascar add to IN today?

Competing with China in Africa IMO doesn't require a Military base. It can very well be done by the host countries existing infra where we can lease some space if need be.

I don't see a need to have a Naval Base here which cannot do anything other then tickle Australia.

Any base of any kind anywhere near Java OTOH will be magnificent.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2012 15:26

east africa is scheduled to be our breadbasket going fwd in food crops. and other than somalia is relatively stable and non-islamist. a base on the way would help both our submarines and our sea routes.

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Jul 2012 16:01

It will have its own pain Points also...

1) Long distance Operational and Infra issues
2) Could become Target point for Taliban due to Taliban's proximity with Pirates

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2012 16:14

if a major indian mil base is going to dhoti shiver at the pirate/sea borne taliban issue we have bigger problems than this...

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Jul 2012 16:20

koti wrote:Thats a huge distance for any conventional vessel to be deployed and operated.
What value will a base in Mauritius or Madagascar add to IN today?

Competing with China in Africa IMO doesn't require a Military base. It can very well be done by the host countries existing infra where we can lease some space if need be.

I don't see a need to have a Naval Base here which cannot do anything other then tickle Australia.

Any base of any kind anywhere near Java OTOH will be magnificent.

I think India certainly needs such a forward base , would be very useful for special operation forces/navy and ELINT. This offer should be utilised fully.

India s wars in the next decade should be waged away from its shores.The navy is the ideal arm for that.Lets carry the war to the enemy, a proactive stance in confrontation would help a lot.

And one more thing., think what can happen if that offer is not taken by India but by the neighbouring dragon ?

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Jul 2012 16:53

Singha wrote:if a major indian mil base is going to dhoti shiver at the pirate/sea borne taliban issue we have bigger problems than this...

Sir; its not dhoti shiver... but will remain a pain point in terms of a nuisance... though it will be not act as key factor which goes against this proposal but worth keeping in mind...

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 06 Jul 2012 17:00

INS Sahyadri to be commisioned on July 21,2012

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Jul 2012 17:01

kit wrote:And one more thing., think what can happen if that offer is not taken by India but by the neighbouring dragon ?

No. The PLAN wont possibly operate anything so close to Diego Garcia.

kit wrote:India s wars in the next decade should be waged away from its shores.The navy is the ideal arm for that.Lets carry the war to the enemy, a proactive stance in confrontation would help a lot.

I agree but the location is not suitable for any of the said roles IMO. The region is of little strategic importance to PLAN or PN against India or for IN against them.

IN's presence on A&N Islands is a major advantage for India, and Mauritius IMO is too far of and in a currently unimportant location.
That said, it may be useful in the coming decades for some thing else and this can be a good opportunity for India to gain land far off, but its military advantages, I can't see yet.

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Jul 2012 18:15

According to the ToI report, the two islands— North Agalega and South Agalega —are together only about 70 sq km in size; but being situated more than 1,000 km north of Mauritius, they are actually closer to the Indian landmass than to the rest of Mauritius. Mauritius reckons that India can use the islands to develop a tourist outpost, conduct marine studies and perhaps even secure a strategic foothold in the Indian Ocean.

Source

Map

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 18:19

Singha wrote:
and *socotra*

I have often wondered why no one else has a base in Socotra. Any ideas? The impression I got when I last tried to research the subject on my own was that the place offers no good natural harbor. But this is just my guess - don't take it as "accepted information"

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 06 Jul 2012 19:08

http://vk.com/video_ext.php?oid=2676873 ... c7f8f52110
Hope it can be seen without registration

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Jul 2012 19:30

koti wrote:
According to the ToI report, the two islands— North Agalega and South Agalega —are together only about 70 sq km in size; but being situated more than 1,000 km north of Mauritius, they are actually closer to the Indian landmass than to the rest of Mauritius. Mauritius reckons that India can use the islands to develop a tourist outpost, conduct marine studies and perhaps even secure a strategic foothold in the Indian Ocean.

Aah... didn't realized its 1000 Km Up North... in that case its located strategically see below

A = Diego Garcia
B = Agalega Islands
C = Mauritius
d = Seychelles

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Jul 2012 19:34

A Nasty Thought; have some Agni 5\6 on this island as second strike Capability for Pakiland

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2012 20:28

I think it would make a great fwd base for nuclear submarines and LRMP a/c in future. we need to sew up a 99 yr lease.

socotra afaik is swept by fierce winds all the year and has no great harbour, but does have a airport with daily service from Yemen. for a start people could setup a LRMP base there and then slowly build a breakwater and proper harbour to house a naval fwd operating base.
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2008/09 ... earth.html

taking a look at Agalega islands they appear to the peak of a submerged mountains. two islands, both around 7km long. no harbour, one basic airstrip. so it may not be easy to build a good harbour there. but airbase is possible.
in contrast diego garcia 10km long looks like a coral island with sheltered ring type lagoon that affords a good naval base as well.

manum · Post by **manum** » 06 Jul 2012 20:33

The islands are good for anti piracy policing....Which we can carry on till we build more excuses for creating a launch pad for other things...

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Jul 2012 21:09

The Dragon has set up listening posts close upto US in pacific in some islands., they could do the same here..they would of course set up the tourism bit as well !

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 21:18

mmm.. the place is too good for serious business... so strategic enough., even for permanent silo based launchers like in massa. perhaps a future thought.. it would be interesting base, considering more nuke subs to join.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 06 Jul 2012 22:00

Hitesh wrote:Actually, US was the gold standard during WWII. They churned out numbers of ships that completely dwarfed both Japan's, Germany's, Britain's, and other countries combined

well said, there have been instances where US was making one Liberty Ship a Day from each of their ship yards that were building the liberty ships.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 06 Jul 2012 22:25

By the way, it feels good to be on the other side!!! When was the last time someone actually offered India something (cost side apart), that also in times when most wars are fought over gaining an inch of territory, and it is always India who has to make territorial concessions to all sorts of rogues. Feels good specially when the piglets are crying so much for Cashmere and the Chinese fools for Arunachal, should be a lesson for them!!!

member_23626 · Post by **member_23626** » 06 Jul 2012 22:52

Let's not discuss it further. Giving away info for potential listeners is not a good idea. Let's kill this topic for now. IMVHO ofcourse. MODS please keep a watch here...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jul 2012 09:08

looks like this deal has been on the table for some time, but become active again recently due to the quid-pro-quo aspects. it wont be a secret to the big players on the table.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 07 Jul 2012 21:41

We already have a IN facility nearby in Madagascar (800km) with very limited basing faciltities. We also don't have the numbers yet, but we will going forward.

IMO this facility will be useful to develop for tourism and keep out of the hands of other nations that would probably want it. It will also provide options for us.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 07 Jul 2012 23:07

Sridhar.E wrote:Let's not discuss it further. Giving away info for potential listeners is not a good idea. Let's kill this topic for now. IMVHO ofcourse. MODS please keep a watch here...

I am totally confused and bemused . We are giving away info to potential listeners?

You made my day man.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2012 16:54

Tejas naval landing gear pic. the nosewheel does not seem to have changed. the main legs are bigger now
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FlbLYYQiT7k/T ... 4621-L.jpg

CAT launched a.c like rafale need a stronger nose gear also to handle the catapult towing it at high speed
http://www.safran-na.com/spip.php?rubrique43&lang=en

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jul 2012 17:26

New variant of RD-33MK will be useful for Mig-29K.

RD-33: output on the rise

At the same time with the full-rate production in Moscow, Klimov JSC in St. Petersburg continues to refine the RD-33MK and RD-93. According to Klimov, the company’s jet engine priorities are the development of the modified RD-93MA with the thrust enhanced to 9,300 kgf for a foreign customer and the development of the upgraded RD-33MKM with a thrust of 9,500 kgf for the MiG corporation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2012 19:42

I have a sneaking feeling the PLAAF is looking to buy a couple squadrons of Mig29K for the Varyag.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jul 2012 19:56

No chance of Mig-29K neither Mig yearly report talks of it nor is there any news of such a deal ,neither from Russian or Chinese.

Considering Varyag is a big ship they are better of having the flanker as is planned , I dont know if they had planned for a naval variant of J-10.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2012 20:09

problem with flanker su33 is Rus has retired them and is not planning to build or support it. would PRC want to do this alone and be the sole user? sounds like a recipe for support troubles...seeing how many "issues" are faced with eqpt in use like Bears, IL38 and Mi26 ...
with Mig29K they can be sure Rus will continue to use it (and so will India).

pix of varyag on sea trials shows some kamov heli activity but no sign of any plane - yet.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jul 2012 20:18

Su-33 has not be retired from RuN they will be refurbished and based on ground as they have air frame life left , they are not building new Su-33 instead going for Mig-29K since starting the Su-33 production line is expensive compared to building Mig-29K as a follow up to Indian order.

Chinese from what i have read got atleast one or could be more Su-33 from Ukraine and they have claim to have reverse engineered the Su-33 from it.

I am a bit skeptical since they would lack extensive flight test data that Sukhoi will have with Su-33 and might end up with sub optimal performance even if they successfully reverse engineer it ...but lets see when the bird flies from Varyag.

John · Post by **John** » 08 Jul 2012 20:28

Austin wrote:No chance of Mig-29K neither Mig yearly report talks of it nor is there any news of such a deal ,neither from Russian or Chinese.

Considering Varyag is a big ship they are better of having the flanker as is planned , I dont know if they had planned for a naval variant of J-10.

Not really flankers' performance is severely hampered operating from ski jump platform due to payload limitations as it Su-33 could have takeoff weight of around ~ 25000 kg operating from Kuz. which doesn't give much room for payload and fuel. Not sure if Chinese have increased the J-10s thrust to make it any better.