Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby JaiS » 04 Jul 2012 21:52


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kartik » 05 Jul 2012 20:53



don't know who wrote that article, but doesn't seem very accurate..for instance, this is what the person states about the ventral fins

link

Two ventral fins are located under the rear fuselage and flaps joint. These fins increase the maneuverability of the aircraft. During greater weapon load take off and loose handling, these fins serve as the last option to save the aircrafts rearward belly from hitting the ground. The area along the side of fuselage is coated with Radar Absorbing Material (RAM), which decreases the radar signature of the aircraft. JF-17 is one of the fewest aircraft with smaller visual/IR and radar signature.


In fact, the ventral fins are not to increase maneuverability at all- they are required to maintain directional control over the aircraft when the AoA is high, since the vertical fin gets blanked out and does not get much airflow, which severely restricts the longitudinal control that the vertical fin can provide. Just like the general layout of the F-16 that they've copied, this is one such feature.

The tail-strike requirement is not something that fighters tend to worry about, although it is a test point for civilian airplanes. I don't see any RAM on the side of the fuselage and these ventral fins are a RCS increasing feature from the side on, something that this person conveniently ignores when he makes claims that the JF-17 has one of the smallest radar signatures. :roll:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby K Mehta » 07 Jul 2012 15:38

Is PN making a new shipyard at 24.838932, 66.729702 ?
check the place in google earth, this structure has undergone expansion rapidly! seems to have a dredged channel too! for missile boats or subs?
Is PN making another new sub in Karachi or just refurbishing old agosta at 24.829458,66.971905? Note the missing zarrar class boat, both havent been seen weaponized at anytime, not even the main gun.
note deployment of zulfi class boat at ormara along with a missile boat and a patrol boat at 25.201738,64.674379 . Also PNS ahsan nearby would make this into a better base than krachi.

^Kartik
I was reading somewhere that the Lerx expansion has more to do with giving stability to the airframe. So will the Lerx increase in JF-17 reduce its relaxed stability? Would that make it less maneuverable?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krish.pf » 07 Jul 2012 17:35

From Flight Global -

"China is having almost no impact on world markets, except in a marginal way," he adds. "Their niche, if you could call it that, is countries that can't afford anything better. The JF-17 is an obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for the Pakistan market, which values numbers over actual combat effectiveness. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere else, and only marginal country markets have been mentioned as prospects - other than Egypt."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... gh-373313/

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jul 2012 18:00

Cheee....KRISH...How dare you post such garbage on BRF? :shock: We on BRF extoll the virtues of Chinese built aircraft. Their radars are so advanced that it can detect a fighter even before it takes off (while making Szechuan Chicken at the same time). Don't forget swarms of J-20 are going to fly over the Himalayas in 2020 and Katrina won't do anything to stop it. So scary indeed! DHOTI SHIVER!! :roll:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kartik » 07 Jul 2012 21:33

K Mehta wrote:^Kartik
I was reading somewhere that the Lerx expansion has more to do with giving stability to the airframe. So will the Lerx increase in JF-17 reduce its relaxed stability? Would that make it less maneuverable?


Hi K Mehta,

LERX increases the high AoA capability of an aircraft by generating beneficial vortices that help in keeping the boundary layer attached to the wing. I can't see how LERXes will reduce its relaxed stability, since they shouldn't affect the CG of the aircraft. LERXes will definitely not reduce maneuverability and should in fact improve it- the JF-17's LERXes are very similar to those on the Super Hornet and were increased in size after initial testing must have revealed deficiencies.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby S_Prasad » 08 Jul 2012 01:21

[youtube]TCnE4v3JEP8&feature=relmfu[/youtube]

a documentary to watch

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 08 Jul 2012 08:22

The Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan living out the “jihad fi sabilillah” or “Jihad in the Path of Allah” part of its motto by waging Jihad against the women-folk of their Bengali co-religionists.

Khaled Ahmed discusses the memoirs of a Divisional GOC back during the days of the genocidal campaign launched by the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan targeting their Mohammadden co-religionists of Bengali origin:

‘Genetic engineering’ in East Pakistan

General Niazi threatened that he would let his soldiers loose on Bengali womenfolk.

By Khaled Ahmed

Published: July 7, 2012

Pakistan’s name has been blackened by just one man: General AAK ‘Tiger’ Niazi. According to a new book by Oxford University Press, he is supposed to have pronounced the words that even Genghis Khan would have hesitated to use: that he would let loose his soldiers on the women of East Pakistan till the lineage/ethnicity of the Bengali race was changed.

The account has come from a true son of Pakistan, late Major-General (retd) Khadim Hussain Raja in his recently published book A Stranger in My Own Country: East Pakistan, 1969-1971 (OUP, 2012). The book is posthumously published probably because it was a hot potato in the times it was actually written. He was General Officer Commanding 14 Division in East Pakistan. .....................

Express Tribune

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krish.pf » 08 Jul 2012 09:10

Rakesh wrote:Cheee....KRISH...How dare you post such garbage on BRF? :shock: We on BRF extoll the virtues of Chinese built aircraft. Their radars are so advanced that it can detect a fighter even before it takes off (while making Szechuan Chicken at the same time). Don't forget swarms of J-20 are going to fly over the Himalayas in 2020 and Katrina won't do anything to stop it. So scary indeed! DHOTI SHIVER!! :roll:

hehe... exactly. Hence posted to make fun of Flight Global not the JF-17. :mrgreen:

---------

JF-17 vs F-16 vs MiG-29 - Turn rate/time for a full 360 degree turn. http://view.break.com/2342656

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 08 Jul 2012 17:27

RD-33: output on the rise

At the same time with the full-rate production in Moscow, Klimov JSC in St. Petersburg continues to refine the RD-33MK and RD-93. According to Klimov, the company’s jet engine priorities are the development of the modified RD-93MA with the thrust enhanced to 9,300 kgf for a foreign customer


Seems like JF-17 Block 2 will get a higher thrust engine rated at 93 kN

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Don » 08 Jul 2012 19:37

krish.pf wrote:From Flight Global -

"China is having almost no impact on world markets, except in a marginal way," he adds. "Their niche, if you could call it that, is countries that can't afford anything better. The JF-17 is an obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for the Pakistan market, which values numbers over actual combat effectiveness. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere else, and only marginal country markets have been mentioned as prospects - other than Egypt."


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... gh-373313/

Its easy to dismiss your enemy but it is not wise the article also says :

Although it is easy to dismiss the JF-17's capabilities vis-à-vis those offered by more advanced Western types, let alone state-of-the-art aircraft such as the Lockheed F-35 or F-22, on paper it offers a respectable array of systems and capabilities that became common only in Western aircraft in the 1990s. The aircraft can carry a maximum external stores load of 3,600kg (7,930lb), including short- and beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles. Other weapons and sensors can include the LT-2 laser-guided bomb and WMD-7 day/night laser designation pod, C802A anti-ship missiles and the KG300G SPJ airborne self-protection jamming pod.

"An increasing number of developing countries are likely to welcome the promise of decent-quality Chinese military aircraft at competitive prices," says Andrew Erickson, associate professor in the Strategic Research Department at the US Naval War College

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 08 Jul 2012 19:53

Calling JF-17 obsolete might be an exaggeration but it is certainly better that Mig-21 Bison but not closer to Gripen or Tejas.

I suspect with JF-17 Block 2 which is stated to receive AESA , 93kN engine and other improvements it will get much better than what it is right now.

For PAF JF-17 is the second best choice to maintain fleet numbers in cost effective way if the free F-16 from US is not forthcoming.
Last edited by Austin on 08 Jul 2012 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 08 Jul 2012 19:57

in my opinion its easier for a sleek a2a oriented airframe like the F15, F16 or Mirage2K to over time gain the tools to be good A2G performers....but very hard for a tubby (jaguar, JF17) or boxy plane (tornado) to get good in a2a using just new sensors or avionics. the JF17 has noticeably small wings for its size and weight...thats not going to change unless they do a complete redesign and essentially come with a new a/c.

So I suspect its prime orientation is to replace the 150+ Mirage3/5 that are EOL and need to be replaced asap....with secondary air defence role.

the F7 which the pakis are presumably still building and the f-16s would take care of the prime A2A mission.

the might also buy some J10-B at discount if more baksheesh F16s do not come. china might let them fit a new radar and missile to preserve their own secrets from the americans.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 08 Jul 2012 20:10

Is the JF-17 airframe so bad that it can be compared to dedicated strike aircraft like Jaguar or Tornado ...dont think so ,it should be much better than Bison i suppose , certainly better than Jags , I read some time back that they were working on full quad/triplex FWB not sure if they are pursuing that.

I think eventually Pakistan will get their F-16 or atleast the money from US so that they can buy J-20 and some westernised JF-17 from China.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 08 Jul 2012 20:16

can anyone confirm if F7PG is still being built in PAC Kamra? how many are in service and the built nos / yr over the last decade and half?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arijitkm » 08 Jul 2012 23:36

Don't know anyone posted this year old article before !


Sky Wars: Pakistan, India and China

.....After all Pakistan can’t afford to go to war with India anytime soon as it only has six days of oil reserves and can’t push the fight more than six days......

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 09 Jul 2012 06:31

Singha wrote:can anyone confirm if F7PG is still being built in PAC Kamra? how many are in service and the built nos / yr over the last decade and half?


Was it ever built at Kamra? This is the first I am hearing of any such thing.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 09 Jul 2012 06:46

arijitkm wrote:Don't know anyone posted this year old article before !


Sky Wars: Pakistan, India and China

.....After all Pakistan can’t afford to go to war with India anytime soon as it only has six days of oil reserves and can’t push the fight more than six days......


No country, at least not Pakistan, is totally stupid. When you cannot fight hot war and you want to fight war, you will fight it at a level that you can sustain for decades. That is where terrorism, counterfeit currency and safe haven for criminals and support for India's other adversaries/competitors comes in.

In fact I think we sometimes go completely off track on BRF talking about high tech wars with networked systems and robots and standoff weapons and stealth fighters. What the USA and Europe and Russia and to an increasing extent China are doing is building up their arms and tech industries for wars that they will not have to fight. They serve as suppliers for all other idiot/buffoon nations fighting their wars. The also select countries led by stupid leaders like Panama, Kosovo, Iraq and Libya where they demonstrate their weapons for the Asian donkeys and African monkeys who pay half their national budgets to buy arms to fight high tech wars that will never be fought against their monkey/donkey local Paki-like adversaries. And if they attempt a high tech war against the manufacturing nations they will get their asses whupped.

Once again Pakistan is cleverer than the usual Asian donkeys and African monkeys. They are getting high tech equipment from the US to hold back India but fighting a low tech/low intensity, long term war against the US about which the US can do very little other than some pipsqueak drone attacks that kill some villagers armed with muskets while the Jernails and islamist leaders live on unscathed. Recall that absolutely stupid episode where the USA announced a reward for Hafiz Saeed and the backtracked and said the reward is for information, not a "Wanted Dead or Alive'

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krish.pf » 09 Jul 2012 16:47

F-7PG isn't built/assembled in PAC Kamra. There are about 170 F-7 variants currently in the PAF service including attrition losses.

JF-17 Block 2 most probably won't have an AESA radar. The PAF chief gave an interview where he said they are going for a new slotted array KLJ radar with range of 130KM for fighter sized targets. Dunno if this fighter sized targets are 5m2 or was he referring to MKI's RCS.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 09 Jul 2012 17:30

krish.pf wrote:JF-17 Block 2 most probably won't have an AESA radar. The PAF chief gave an interview where he said they are going for a new slotted array KLJ radar with range of 130KM for fighter sized targets. Dunno if this fighter sized targets are 5m2 or was he referring to MKI's RCS.


Do you have link to the interview ?

Fighter size target according to old Western defination will be 3m2 target and Soviet/Russian lingo will be 5m2 but i do not know if this has changed recently

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krish.pf » 09 Jul 2012 17:58


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 09 Jul 2012 18:28

shiv wrote: Recall that absolutely stupid episode where the USA announced a reward for Hafiz Saeed and the backtracked and said the reward is for information, not a "Wanted Dead or Alive'


Unless we plan to become 51 state of USA i dont expect them to fight our wars and pick up our terrorist for us , it would be a fallacy to think other wise as they have strategic interest in Pakistan and they are quite aware of seen to be appearing as beating Pakistan for sake of appeasing India jeopardizing their interest with them.

How we deal with Hafeez Sayeed or Dawood Ibrahim is our problem and if we couldnt deal with them then its our failure .......USA or other states are just passenger who join you in your train journey they continue to travel as long as they reach their destination and then they just get down and move on ..we have to continue our own journey and reach our own destination.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 09 Jul 2012 18:29

krish.pf wrote:It's in Chinese though -
http://i.imgur.com/Pla7c.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Q7vCU.jpg


Oh how i wish that was in english . I dont understand Mandarin .....if you do then translate it for us , Thanks.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krish.pf » 09 Jul 2012 18:38

I don't know Mandarin either. But here is a translation from one of their forums highlighting the main points.

- In 2012, they will be bring out the JF17 Blk 2. The main improvements are the addition of IRF, the development of a twin seat version, adding datalink and development of an export version JF17.
- happy with the performance of the KJL7, so no immediate plans to switch to AESA (KJL7 specs: detection range for fighter sized target 130km; can track 16 targets and engage 2 at the same time; have SAR mapping capability)
- The Chinese indigenous engine is currently undergoing flight testing and may be a while before it is fitted to a JF17
- In 2011 the JF17 test fired: 1 x C802 (hit a seaborne target 90km away, max range 180km); 2 x LS-6 bombs, one is a 500kg GPS guided weapon with 60km range and CEP of 15m, the other was a 250kg laser/IIR+GPS guided weapon with a range of 65km and CEP of 5.3-7.5m; SD10 and other weapons.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 09 Jul 2012 18:42

The so called Chinese engine i think is just a myth and at best wont go beyond prototype stage .....if the Chinese were so confident about their engine they wouldnt have let Klimov work on higher thrust RD-93MA engine.

Changing engine mid way is also a pain as it needs significant flight testing and complicates logistics ...one of the key reason why we continued with GE higher thrust engine for Tejas ......for all practical purpose JF-17 for a long time will use RD-93 variant.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krish.pf » 09 Jul 2012 18:51

Yea. Also given the fact that they are still facing some issues with their WS-10 given the huge priority the J-10 program has over the JF-17, it is indeed unlikely.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 09 Jul 2012 19:15

Austin wrote:
shiv wrote: Recall that absolutely stupid episode where the USA announced a reward for Hafiz Saeed and the backtracked and said the reward is for information, not a "Wanted Dead or Alive'


USA or other states are just passenger who join you in your train journey


Sorry Austin but this is rubbish. The USA is hardly India's co passenger in Pakistan's terrorism. The USA is actively involved in keeping the terrorist state alive. In my view all people who think the US's role in Pakistan helps India in any way are no different from WKKs. They only think they are different, as they egg and cheer the killing of tribals with muskets one by one while the army is paid billions. Co passenger did you say? How come the P-3 Orions were replaced if they were co passengers. Come off it Austingaru. The only way India can have a common cause with the US is if we start paying the Pakistan army and helping them buy arms.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Jul 2012 19:27

Behind the Pakistan F-16 deal, a tale of many wheels

197576: Saving the F-16 program

While we understand New Delhi's opposition to the program, the reality is that this program will not degrade India's overwhelming air superiority over Pakistan. Reducing the munitions package will not significantly affect either costs or regional stability.


Yes can we export say 2 Billion in Arms to Iran saying it will not affect overwhelming US superiority- Hypocrites

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Ankit Desai » 09 Jul 2012 19:57

Pakistan government to finally clip ISI wings

In an unprecedented move, the Asif Ali Zardari-led Pakistan People's Party government has decided to clip the wings of the all-powerful Inter-Services Intelligence through parliamentary legislation, which will not only disband the political wing of the spy agency but also make it fully accountable to the elected parliament and the civilian government.


-Ankit

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby PratikDas » 09 Jul 2012 20:06

This has to be a stunt. I'm waiting for the Sarabjeet / Surjeet moment.

The International Standards Institute will now be fully accountable to the Pakistani elected parliament and civilian government.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 09 Jul 2012 21:20

shiv wrote:Sorry Austin but this is rubbish. The USA is hardly India's co passenger in Pakistan's terrorism. The USA is actively involved in keeping the terrorist state alive. In my view all people who think the US's role in Pakistan helps India in any way are no different from WKKs. They only think they are different, as they egg and cheer the killing of tribals with muskets one by one while the army is paid billions. Co passenger did you say? How come the P-3 Orions were replaced if they were co passengers. Come off it Austingaru. The only way India can have a common cause with the US is if we start paying the Pakistan army and helping them buy arms.


May be you got my co-passenger meaning wrong , I should have been more clear here what i mean by co-passenger , US will use you/us to its benefit and will only help as long as it does not hurt the Pakistan Army or its own interest , like i said US has it own interest in propping the Army and State of Pakistan for geo-political reason ( my view is they do that to keep India in check and what better than the perpetual hanging sword of Nuclear Pakistan on Indian leadership pysche , there is also a Saudi connection to Pakistan Nuclear program , I suspect if Shia Iran goes nuclear the Sunni Saudi will just depend on Pakistan Nuclear weapon as they have bankrolled it for decades )

I agree with what you say , in the end i believe its up to us to take care of our problem ..depending on others is a sign of weakness , if we cannot get hafiz sayeed or dawood or tiger menon back to india or liquidate them then its our problem and our failure no one else will do that for us.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby ManuT » 12 Jul 2012 07:43

Article from 2009, posting for reference

---
Musharraf admits US aid diverted

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8254360.stm




Former president Pervez Musharraf says the US military aid given to Pakistan during his tenure was used to strengthen defences against India.



The money was used to arm the troops who moved with their equipment from the western border to the east based on the perceived threats, he said.

The US gave $10bn dollars to Pakistan to fight the Taliban and al-Qaeda.


In 2007, Pakistan rejected a report which said it had used $5bn on weapons systems designed to fight India.


Pakistan's military had described the New York Times report as "nonsense".


'Did right'


"Wherever there is a threat to Pakistan, we will use it [equipment provided by the US] there. If the threat comes from al-Qaeda or Taliban, it will be used there. If the threat comes from India, we will most surely use it there," Mr Musharraf told Pakistan's Express News television channel.

"There is nothing like this equipment has come from the US and must only be used against Taliban, or that equipment has come from China and must be used against this or that," he added.

Mr Musharraf confirmed that the weapons were indeed used against India.

"We did right. What we did, we did right. We have to ensure Pakistan's security. From whichever side the threat comes, we will use the entire force there."

Mr Musharraf said he did not care if this diversion of aid angered the US.

"Whoever wishes to be angry, let them be angry, why should we bother? We have to maintain our security, and the Americans should know, and the whole world should know that we won't compromise our security, and will use the equipment everywhere."

Meanwhile, India said Mr Musharraf's statement merely confirmed "what we have suspected over a long time and what we have suggested all along".

"We do not feel that such assistance should be turned around and used against us," news agency Reuters quoted India's junior external affairs minister Shashi Tharoor as saying.

"We pose no threat to Pakistan and we find that this kind of diversion is neither in the interest of the sub continent nor of those who are giving this assistance."

This is the first time Pakistan has admitted to diverting the US aid to strengthen its defences against India.

In the past, Pakistan's army has dismissed claims that aid from the US had been misappropriated.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby ManuT » 12 Jul 2012 21:57

Arrested Pak soldier talks of frustration, poor facilities across border
Reported by Nitin Gokhale, Written by Surabhi Malik | Updated: July 12, 2012

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arres ... der-242542

Poonch: A Pakistani soldier was arrested by the Indian army in Kerni sector of Poonch district in Jammu and Kashmir today.

Arif Ali, who belongs to the Frontier Force of the Pakistani army, was arrested around 6 this morning. No weapons were found in his possession.

During questioning by army officials, Ali has reportedly said that he was hoping for asylum in India. According to sources, he has also told his interrogators that lack of basic amenities - like electricity and proper supply of ration - has led to frustration among his colleagues deployed at the Line of Control or LoC. He has also complained about his seniors not granting them leaves.

Sources in the army said he would soon be sent back to Pakistan.

The Frontier Force Regiment of the Pakistan Army guards the LoC opposite the Poonch sector.

In October 2011, Pakistan had allowed an Indian helicopter that had strayed across from Kargil to return to India within four hours.

Not clear why he is being returned against his wish. I think, since the physical safety of this trooper cannot be guaranteed he should be allowed to stay in Kashmir.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Mahendra » 13 Jul 2012 02:06

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby JaiS » 13 Jul 2012 05:17

shiv wrote:
... How come the P-3 Orions were replaced if they were co passengers....



Hello Shiv,

While I agree with the sum of your post, I have a small point to make about the above. From what I have read, the batch of Orions delivered to PN in Feb 2012, were not 'replacements' for the Orions which were shaheed-ized in 2011, though some Pakistani media sources have reported it as such. They were due to be delivered anyways to PN as part of a previous deal.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tejas » 13 Jul 2012 07:35

Not clear why he is being returned against his wish. I think, since the physical safety of this trooper cannot be guaranteed he should be allowed to stay in Kashmir.


No thanks. The solution for all of Pakistan's problems is more Islam not India. His border crossing is not because of mentally unstable hordes who kill people for breathing the wrong way when a "holy" quran is nearby. Nor is it because throwing acid in the face of women is a "victmless" crime in his barbaric society. It is because the savages in his country are too busy killing blasphemers rather than providing rations and power to his base. There are 500,000 other people I would like to see returned to Kashmir and none of them think a 52 year old man marrying a 6 year old girl is an example of model behavior.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_20033 » 13 Jul 2012 11:28

Deleted by moderator
Last edited by archan on 14 Jul 2012 06:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_20453 » 13 Jul 2012 13:30

Deleted by moderator
Last edited by archan on 14 Jul 2012 06:20, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT


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