Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29th May 2012

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 11 Jul 2012 23:37

venug wrote: Finally, when veteran Kashmir leader Karan Singh demanded the same, Mukherjee erupted: "Do you understand what you are all saying? If we do that (attack Pakistan), foreign forces will enter Kashmir the next day. We have kept them out of Kashmir all these years. And now you want us to invite them in?"

There will always be a weakling, there always is. No one told him to attack Pakistan and have so called jehadis run amok in Kashmir the next day, that is his personal agenda though, needs separate discussion, what could and should have been done is categorically classifying Pakistan as a state sponsor of terrorism and forming all future policies/actions based on that premise for start. Till date, people are careful in calling Pakistan state a terrorist, as if the jehadis themselves wanted to have a field trip in India. The Paki morons are giving artillery cover to terrorist infiltration, sniping Indian soldiers, killing innocent people and care needs to be taken to classify them as terrorists? that also because of some men's mountain of peace vision is in that way? what about the men who gave away their lives, who is accountable for them? India should be totally insulated from the Paki terrorists, capabilities built to face any adverse challenges, open illegal borders with Nepal/Bhutan to be monitored, show of strength in borders/Indian ocean as an answer to any Paki intention for misadventure and let it be known to them in clear terms, if they can nuke India in 8 seconds, India can do it even before that thought can come to a Paki mind. These should be the start and the whole Indian doctrine should be based upon saving Indian lives at any cost.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 11 Jul 2012 23:38

Ivanev wrote:The US is arming Pakistan for maintaining strategic balance against India, arming India to maintain strategic balance against China, arming China covertly and other surrounding nations to maintain balance in South East Asia, fantastic!!! Good for their business. They are asking the Pakis to do more against terrorists attacking only the US, asking India to do more in Kashmir, asking the Chinese to do more to avoid confrontation with them. Did I see a UK documentary sympathizing the so called torture to terrorist scumbags who have blood of so many innocent people on their hands, maybe they have forgotten Guantanamo or Abu Gharib. Also, when their interests in Pakistan were being hurt, they promptly made a documentary on the Paki double cross and spread it across, now that the routes have been opened and their right interests been served, its back to business with the usual India bashing.

i would not credit usa for sooo much forward type thinking. they are a transactional greedy bunch who live from deal to deal profit to profit. aam junta is like that.....how the hell with the govt be faar sighted and sagely wise?

we have to do our own work ourselves. no one is going to do our dishes for us. we have to influence pak to positive behaviour ourselves...and threaten them with a stick as well.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 11 Jul 2012 23:39

Fine, only that the local so called policeman is hand in glove with him and is supporting the cause by supplying him truck loads of gasoline.

Blow your destructive neighbour in the police man's house while supplying him truck loads of gasoline. Better if you are clever enough to instigate your neighbour destruct himself in policeman's house

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Jul 2012 23:41

abhishek_sharma wrote:^ +1.

Assumtion that any of the Big power beside PRC will take actual military panga with India is nothing but wild imagination or the dhoti shiver of confidence lacking WKK walas of old generation. No country will want billion Yindoos angry and hell bent on revenge . Even the PRC wont like big powers moving into K and create problem using Uighers and Tibbetans.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 11 Jul 2012 23:42

^^
Or keep killing them at Yellow Sea, something we see to have develpoed some expertise over the years.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Jul 2012 23:51

Massa Mommy 's permanent Poaqunny. One day It will grow big and fight Indian.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 11 Jul 2012 23:56

Rangudu wrote:Yes there are plenty of powerful lobbies and people that would move heaven and earth to dissuade an Indian Cold Start or other military responses to TSPA provocations ...

Actually US was hoping India would attack the Paks after 26/11.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 12 Jul 2012 00:04

Pranav wrote:
Rangudu wrote:Yes there are plenty of powerful lobbies and people that would move heaven and earth to dissuade an Indian Cold Start or other military responses to TSPA provocations ...
Actually US was hoping India would attack the Paks after 26/11.

I don't think so. Pakis were probably hoping for it. US did a lot of diplomacy to prevent an Indian attack. They had it both ways: talked about a punitive attack on TSP and took credit for stopping it. As the report on Pranab's dhoti shivering indicates, no US diplomacy was needed in the event.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 12 Jul 2012 00:19

by habal

whose side are you on ?

this is dual-identity crisis. Can't extradite Headley excuse is both a cover and an accusation.

1. I am on the side of India and Indians.

2. Extraditing Headley won't do any good to Indians when we still have bigger vermins like Dawood, Hafiz Saeed, Yusuf Azzam, Ibrahim Azhar, Shaid Aktar Sayed, Sunny Ahmad Qazi, Mistri Zahoor Ibrahim, Shakir and thousands others to extradite., and few in jails enjoying Biryani waiting execution from years now.

3. Dawood Gilani instead of death sentence pleaded guilty to the 26/11 attacks and has provided lots of information so that his life is spared and is not extradited to India. India needs to hire good lawyers who need to thoroughly read his plead and find a loophole so that the Bombay victims get justice otherwise He will get life in prison as well as 3 million dollars fine. This does not mean that he will go scot free, prisons in USA are not for the faint and especially for the pretty boy like Dawood Gilani. This is not the first time he has pleaded guilty, DEA (drug enforcement Agency) earlier caught him smuggling heroin in USA and was let go on a lighter sentence to become insider informer of the drugs/heroin syndicate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Headley

4. Had the pakistan problem been solved in 1948 by thoroughly defeating them we would have very few casualties.
Had the pakistan problem been solved in 1965 by thoroughly defeating them (instead of stalemate at Tashkant with 3000 casualties) we should have afforded few more casualties at the cost of the future but out politicians didn't. probably 100,000

Ditto at 1971. all out war to finish pakistan at this time (pre nuke) would not have martyred more than 250,000 people.

At 1999 with nukes the casualties not more than 10 million.
Now in 2012 with nukes the casualties will be around 100 million .

Just remember that as long as we keep on delaying the pakistan problem we need to shed more blood in future. USA, CHina, Russia, UK, Brazil, Austalia, Japan and others have their own countries to take care off.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 12 Jul 2012 00:51

I'll stick my neck out and state clearly that there is no way USA is going to walk away from India for the next 50 years. The next half century will revolve around an India-USA axis. Mark my words.

But that does not mean we do their dirty work for them. It will be a partnership of equals and no can change the incoming tide of history. Too much is at stake !

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 12 Jul 2012 01:07

What is this exact mystical epiphany about foreign forces that all the politicos received instantly which convinced them more than 3 years ago whereas its true meaning still escapes mango people?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Jul 2012 01:36

The (orchestrated) UN response to a nucular exchange in the "disputed Cashmere" areas is currently not clear. Particularly in the the case of kidwai waiting till we cross the LoC and triggering off a bum on their side. So in a sense, the Indian leadership's reluctance covers both the aspects (detergent + UN intervention). Mishandling of Headley's outing by khan and acting as Great Benefactors in media during the initial stages, that sort of reconfirms that unease around 26/11 in retrospect.

Anujan-saar is correct - we got to ignore the yapping and pee-ing at our heels and keep walking in a certain direction. The rich white guy holding on to that chihuahua's collar is considered a very respectable lawyer, whose side-business is loan-sharking. The pet might snap at him too, but you don't squash his pet when he is looking. The lawyer is the problem here not his pet. So you buy a few slices of salami and go to an agricultural store that sells pest control substances and then lovingly feed the pet....

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Jul 2012 02:05

Someone visited Pakistan and posted this in travel forum:

One important point I made was that you could not trust PIA for their domestic flights.
At the time I thought that was just one of those foibles that happen in a journey.
My domestic flights that I had paid for and booked did not happen. I tried to get a reimbursement in Pakistan but was told that this was not possible as I had booked the flights in Dubai.
Three weeks later I am given back two thirds of the ticket price and the other third was the cancellation fee.
I did not cancel my flights. PIA did. They are charging me for them cancelling their flights when in fact it cost me days and huge expense to get where I wanted to go.
I do not want to be open to slanderous or libellous charges so I will not say that they are thieves and crooks. I will also not dream of saying that they are probably the worst advertisement for their own country. I definitely will not say these things about them.
I just want to say: "travellers beware".
I do say that.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 12 Jul 2012 02:11

shiv wrote:As I have been told thousands of times, the US acts in its self interest. And I repeat for the thousandth time, its self interest is in getting Pakistan to do the job it wants from Pakistan. If Pakistan agrees to do even part of the job in exchange for help against India, the US, in its self interest will help Pakistan against India.

It is in US interest if India acts aggressive towards Pakistan. It makes the US's job easier. It makes it politically easy for the US government to pass bills to aid Pakistan threatened by India. But it does not make India's job easier. It is not in US interest to make things easier for India. But it is in India's interest to make the most of a bad situation. The US wants Pakistan to survive. So India will get hit by Pakistani terrorism whether or not we fight them. And Pakistan will survive either way.

The key to breaking this is to get the US and Pakistan to get into a fight. Pakistanis need to know that they are slaves. Muslim slaves to a white Christian power attacking innocent Muslims. So much for Islamic supremacy... In a fight between Allah and America, Allah will lose because Pakistan is on Allah's side. Allah made Muslims to be American slaves. And they will only slave for Americans Alhamdulillah to that birathers.

The likes of Mr.Sareen , no doubt, have access to far more resources and inputs that anyone here can imagine. And probably the current developments between America and Pakistan does India good.
But my contention is that surely this alone could not have been our policy for 4/5 decades. All strategic institutes, think tanks, parties of all colors , IFS, RAW , IB could have surely done more in this time - they did not plan for this and wait for the current developments all these years.

> So India will get hit by Pakistani terrorism whether or not we fight them.
And for how long should this be? Is this some eternal truth? MAybe the first time we let them go . But after the second time and third time, we could have made it a lot more painful them. What this also tells is that Americans know what Pakis want i.e means to hurt India. But why has not India made it clear to Pakistan in all these years that acquiring means to hurt India will not be tolerated.

That article by Mr.Sareen also shows how both Pakistan and America each have their interests in mind and know how to get them. Pakistan gets money , US has its supplies . Neither of them are worried about annoying India.

Frankly, I do not know if India is a scheming , cunning nation and knows what it is doing. But everywhere I see, I see evidence of the lack of coherence , intelligence and influence. And Indian deaths. at least act and show you have a spine. This gutless, comatose state, living from one terrorist act to another , going through the regular motions of investigation, condolence and dossiers is pathetic. Add to that ugly abomination called DigVijay Singh who rubs it in. Try something to show that you know what you are doing. I mean, how else do you project strength. Shiny aircraft and lots of big talk? Show us that you are ready to get into the cesspool instead . How come every other nation manages to do what India does not? Are we really that super dooper intelligent and think we can sneak our way to supahpawah status without paying the dues - I mean aren#t a few bombs and mindless slaughter par for the course. Why nottake stock and see where we stand after doing just that against the worlds no.1 enemy .

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 12 Jul 2012 02:40

Murthy garu, you got it right !

People who say that India needs to name the US as enemy and treat it as such are simply thinking as Pakis.We need to think with our heads not with our heart. Had the Indian politicians and babus used their heads, they would have used the American system for our own benefit like the chinese did in the 80s and 90s and still do. The US will only look after its own interests and so should we. Even when the US was shafting India, using the India card against the pakis, it still was outwardly on a relatively friendly ties with India, developing influential contact outside and inside the govt and using those contacts to favour their policies when the need arises.We should be doing the same in reverse. Cooperate with the US where out interests coincide like in Indo-Pacific and go our own way where our interests dont coincide like in Af-Pak even while being outwardly friendly with US and developing influencial contacts within their country.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 12 Jul 2012 02:47

As long time lurker, I remember some one posting in India TS Pak matters

"Keep US at a safe distance"

Even shiv saar after meticulous research, study of TS Paki piskology and writing books has come to the same conclusions.
Thanks Shiv saar varu

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2012 06:23

Neela wrote: Frankly, I do not know if India is a scheming , cunning nation and knows what it is doing. But everywhere I see, I see evidence of the lack of coherence , intelligence and influence. And Indian deaths. at least act and show you have a spine. This gutless, comatose state, living from one terrorist act to another , going through the regular motions of investigation, condolence and dossiers is pathetic. Add to that ugly abomination called DigVijay Singh who rubs it in. Try something to show that you know what you are doing. I mean, how else do you project strength. Shiny aircraft and lots of big talk? Show us that you are ready to get into the cesspool instead . How come every other nation manages to do what India does not? Are we really that super dooper intelligent and think we can sneak our way to supahpawah status without paying the dues - I mean aren#t a few bombs and mindless slaughter par for the course. Why nottake stock and see where we stand after doing just that against the worlds no.1 enemy .

Worlds no 1 enemy? Is that Pakistan or its ally, the USA? USA calls Pakistan an ally no? You are beating about the bush on that point. You need to get that sorted out. You have avoided that from the very first post. Why you are avoiding the fact that the USA is an ally of Pakistan and helping to arm Pakistan against India is something you do not want to comment on. As long as you avoid reality all your posts make perfect sense. If Pakistan and the USA have a fight that is the best thing that can happen. You want India to rescue the USA by bombing Pakistan? You are wrong. Let the USA pull out of Pakistan with its tail between its legs first.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2012 06:42

Allah created special Muslims to become America's slaves. But he did not want all Muslims or all people of the world to slave for America. So he created Muslim countries like Pakistan so that only the bravest, tallest, fairest and the most tight assed Aryan Muslims would be American slaves. No matter how tall and fair the Aryan Muslims of Pakistan are, the Americans are taller and fairer. That is why Pakistanis call Americans gora and their women gori. Nobody calls Pakistanis as gora. Allah intended it that way. That is why Pakistanis are the slaves of superwhite Christian America.

2 begging bowls + killing 100 Muslims by Pakistan army = 1 F-16

arun · Post by **arun** » 12 Jul 2012 07:11

Baloch Freedom Fighter Mujahideen attack bus belonging to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s space agency, SUPARCO :

One killed as bomb targets Suparco bus in Karachi

arun · Post by **arun** » 12 Jul 2012 07:24

X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, a country claimed to have been set up as a safe haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian Sub-Continent, being Mohammadden is not “Pure” enough to prevent being relegated to the fate of Dhimmi Kaafirs and being predated upon by one’s own co-religionists for religious reasons if one has the misfortune of belonging to a minority sect.

Green on Green Intra-Mohammadden violence sees a Cleric of the minority Shia sect of Mohammaddenism getting beheaded by his co-religionists of the Sunni sect:

Two including Imam Bargah cleric beheaded in Quetta

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 12 Jul 2012 07:24

Had the Indian politicians and babus used their heads, they would have used the American system for our own benefit like the chinese did in the 80s and 90s and still do.

Japan, Italy and Germany pre Second World War were very aggressive but once they got defeated and submitted to USA look at their economies now!! USA made sure that these three economies become part of world economies but without their armies/airforces/navies and look at them now!!! They are prosperous and happy but do not have that much say in world (due to less clout after second world war). They will keep on trying to build their defense forces and USA has not let them in last 67 years.

Never ever in human history we have had such benign power who police the world around for right causes i.e. righteousness (Dharma). After Roosevelt US politicians are not that much convinced that Pakistan has crossed over to become a threat like Germany, Japan and Italy., due to bad experiences in Vietnam and then ongoing "bad" experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan (little successes like Panama, Grenada, United Germany do not count that much) our job is to convince them!! and we are on the right path.

USA is probably the best super power in human history just look around you to remember other things that are direct contribution of USA based freedom (planes, cars, electricity, internet, phones, internet, human health, plastics, space travel, defense etc) to innovate and it will continue. (don't give my bullcrap about families and better social fabric and less divorces and better educated and disciplined children in other countries)

The problem is just like Islamic Jihadis who get inspired by sentences like "Mohammad was the great fighter of sword" but the modern Jihadi need "a Machine gun, RDX and internet to fight" all three are innovations of Western World.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 12 Jul 2012 07:39

arun wrote:Baloch Freedom Fighter Mujahideen attack bus belonging to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s space agency, SUPARCO :

One killed as bomb targets Suparco bus in Karachi

Great setback to Pakistani space program's accomplishment due to bus being damaged.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 12 Jul 2012 07:46

UK to deport thousands if Pakistan abolishes death penalty
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2012_pg1_6

The British government could deport tens of thousands of undesirable Pakistani migrants if death penalty is abolished in Pakistan , Daily Times has learnt.
In an alleged secret deal, Britain has offered to revive British nationality of the interior minister and other dual national Pakistani parliamentarians in return for implementation of their long-standing demand of repealing the death penalty.

Adviser to the Prime Minister on Interior Rehman Malik’s statement that abolition of death penalty is under consideration does not seem to be motivated by any genuine concern towards those facing death sentence, but a direct consequence of the British government’s alleged offer and purely for self-interest with sole aim to benefit a foreign government at the cost of Pakistani interests.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 12 Jul 2012 07:50

The doctor isn't in

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2012 07:50

SBajwa wrote: Never ever in human history we have had such benign power who police the world around for right causes i.e. righteousness (Dharma).

Bajwaji. When women and children are killed in Chattisinghpora by Islamic terrorists who were called "freedom fighters" by an American president; when Musharraf gets feted and assisted for "helping" America, I have to wonder whether the concept of dharma itself is bullshit, or your definition of who is dharmic is wrong.

It is karma that people can crap on dharma and flush it down the toilet while being praised as "righteous".

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 12 Jul 2012 07:55

SBajwa wrote: Never ever in human history we have had such benign power who police the world around for right causes i.e. righteousness (Dharma).

When I read such comments, I wonder whether you have read any post (posted here) in last 6 years.

I mean, how can someone be so delusional?

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 12 Jul 2012 07:56

venug wrote:CT or not, this is what Pranab Murkherjee seems to have said:

This happened as recently as December 2008. An angry Congress president, Sonia Gandhi, had convened a meeting of the Congress Working Committee after terrorists had attacked Mumbai killing more than 170 people, to send a strong message and also pave the way to sack some ministers.

Gandhi didn't lose her temper but let principal troubleshooter Pranab Mukherjee do as he liked. One after another, senior members of the CWC got up to demand that India launch an attack on Pakistan to teach that country a lesson.

Finally, when veteran Kashmir leader Karan Singh demanded the same, Mukherjee erupted: "Do you understand what you are all saying? If we do that (attack Pakistan), foreign forces will enter Kashmir the next day. We have kept them out of Kashmir all these years. And now you want us to invite them in?"
From:
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 120616.htm

This is what he stated in public (which is not at odds he was doing in private, but nonetheless)

Tuesday 2 December 2008

Mumbai attacks: India demands Pakistan hand over terror suspects
Government plays down possibility of military action over mass killings in Mumbai

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/de ... a-pakistan

India today downplayed the possibility of military action in response to the Mumbai attacks but demanded that Islamabad hand over suspected terrorists believed to be in Pakistan.

"Nobody is talking of military action," India's foreign minister, Pranab Mukherjee, told reporters when asked what action might be taken.

Indian investigators have said the attacks that killed at least 172 people last week were carried out by militants from Lashkar-e-Taiba, a Kashmiri extremist group based in Pakistan.
Julian Borger on Condoleeza Rice's call for the Pakistani government to get control of its inteliigence agency Link to this audio
Mukherjee said a list of about 20 names was given to Pakistan's high commissioner to India at a meeting last night. India has already demanded that Pakistan take "strong action" against those responsible for the attacks, and the US has put pressure on Islamabad to cooperate.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 12 Jul 2012 08:08

Here is an example of what the "benign power" does for "righteousness".

And no, this is not the worst mistake done by the "best superpower". The list is pretty long.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 12 Jul 2012 08:15

At the risk of misquoting Shiv ji, knowningly or unknowingly is somewhat echoing Henry Kissinger's point.

quoting Gurucharan Das on Henry Kissinger.

Henry Kissinger was not a famous at that time, but largely provocative name and his lectures attracted hundred undergraduates. Kissinger taught us that the pursuit of national self-interest was only legitimate course for a nation in its relations with other countries. When all countries pursued their interest it resulted in predicatability, balance of power, and eventually peace in the world. There was no room for morality or altruism. Metterinch was Kissinger's hero and model, and because of him and Talleyrand, Castlereagh, and Czar Alexander at the Congress of Vienna in 1815, the nineteenth century had been a "Century of peace". The rules of the game were governed by realpolitik and political leaders played by these rules.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 12 Jul 2012 08:27

http://tribune.com.pk/story/406892/the- ... -doctrine/

Shahzad Chaudhry wants India to stop talking about 26/11 and offers a few Conspiracy theories. G Parthasarathy seems to have twisted his chaddi and called out Pakis for what they are: Terrorists.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Jul 2012 08:45

menon s wrote:UK to deport thousands if Pakistan abolishes death penalty
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2012_pg1_6
The British government could deport tens of thousands of undesirable Pakistani migrants if death penalty is abolished in Pakistan Daily Times has learnt.

What ? All the Mirpuris who were displaced by the Mangla Dam would be coming back ? Another set of Mohajirs ?

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Jul 2012 09:03

SBajwa wrote: 2. Extraditing Headley won't do any good to Indians when we still have bigger vermins like Dawood, Hafiz Saeed, Yusuf Azzam, Ibrahim Azhar, Shaid Aktar Sayed, Sunny Ahmad Qazi, Mistri Zahoor Ibrahim, Shakir and thousands others to extradite., and few in jails enjoying Biryani waiting execution from years now.

that is for India to decide .. no ! how can anyone decide what is good for Indians and what is not ?

SBajwa wrote:3. Dawood Gilani instead of death sentence pleaded guilty to the 26/11 attacks and has provided lots of information so that his life is spared and is not extradited to India. India needs to hire good lawyers who need to thoroughly read his plead and find a loophole so that the Bombay victims get justice otherwise He will get life in prison as well as 3 million dollars fine. This does not mean that he will go scot free, prisons in USA are not for the faint and especially for the pretty boy like Dawood Gilani. This is not the first time he has pleaded guilty, DEA (drug enforcement Agency) earlier caught him smuggling heroin in USA and was let go on a lighter sentence to become insider informer of the drugs/heroin syndicate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Headley

4. Had the pakistan problem been solved in 1948 by thoroughly defeating them we would have very few casualties.
Had the pakistan problem been solved in 1965 by thoroughly defeating them (instead of stalemate at Tashkant with 3000 casualties) we should have afforded few more casualties at the cost of the future but out politicians didn't. probably 100,000

Ditto at 1971. all out war to finish pakistan at this time (pre nuke) would not have martyred more than 250,000 people.

At 1999 with nukes the casualties not more than 10 million.
Now in 2012 with nukes the casualties will be around 100 million .

Just remember that as long as we keep on delaying the pakistan problem we need to shed more blood in future. USA, CHina, Russia, UK, Brazil, Austalia, Japan and others have their own countries to take care off.

Now, you are also forgetting about the grenade timer incident during previous attack.

When the Mumbai blasts took place in 1993, we had invited counter-terrorism experts to come to India and visit the spots to study the issue. The idea was that if we give a report, they would reject it saying we had an agenda against Pakistan. So India wanted experts from other countries to see things for themselves. India hoped they would go back and brief their countries on what the ISI was up to. The Austrians gave a certificate in writing that the hand grenade used by the terrorists in Mumbai were manufactured in the Pakistan Ordnance Factory with machine tools manufactured by an Austrian company.

The Austrians played straight. But the Americans found an unexploded chemical timer. They wanted to take it back to the United States. We said okay. The forensic department said this was part of a consignment, which the US had given to the Pakistan Army in the eighties. They gave an unsigned report in writing to us. So we pointed out to the US that their own forensic department had found the truth. But then US officials said it did not prove that the ISI had given the timer to the terrorists as in Pakistan there were lots of thefts and somebody must have stolen it, given it to a smuggler and the smuggler must have sold it to a terrorist. We remarked that the ISI would not give the timer to a terrorist in front of television cameras.

//furthermore when India asked the US to return the timer, they said the timer was destroyed/lost. Such coverup for Pakistan allowed it to go about it's natural activities for another decade.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 12 Jul 2012 09:11

Gunmen Kill Eight Pakistan Police In Lahore Raid - Police | WSJ

LAHORE (AFP)--Gunmen on Thursday shot dead eight Pakistan policemen and wounded nine others after storming a building in the eastern city of Lahore where they were sleeping, police said.

The attackers targeted a building in the densely populated area of Ichra, where up to 35 police and prison staff were living, mostly officers from Pakistan's troubled northwest who were in Lahore for training.

Soldiers of Islam kill soldiers of Pakistan, but Pakistan claims to be the torchbearer of Islam. Confusion reigns supreme in War on Terror.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 12 Jul 2012 09:27

^^^

http://www.geo.tv/GeoDetail.aspx?ID=58460

It was the second attack in three days on security personnel in the province of Punjab, raising fears of a fresh wave of violence.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2012 09:43

SBajwa wrote: USA is probably the best super power in human history

It is your right to say this and believe in it. But to say it you also have to believe the history that you have been taught. The history you have been taught ignores all older civilizations in favour of declaring the current dominant power as the best. If you had to face punishment from that power you would not be singing its praises. You are human and you praise the side you have joined, the side that has let you join. Not the side that gets punishment.

Even despots can call themselves the "best". Only history can make that decision. You may say it and you may believe it. But you may be wrong. Your viewpoint is relative to your personal situation, not absolute, and certainly not mine.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 12 Jul 2012 09:45

^^ It is based on what people hear on US cable TV.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 Jul 2012 09:51

The new untouchables of India
So much takleef when shoe is on other foot.Lets talk about Dawa, Darul Harb, Kuffar and Its Elimination

They are fast catching up with the Dalits, who have for centuries lived on the edges of Indian society, as the new untouchables. In terms of unemployment and economic and educational backwardness, they have already replaced the Dalits as the lowest of the low.How did they end up here? And at this pace of total alienation from the rest of the country, where’s the community headed? These are questions that must be addressed by India’s leaders and intellectuals as well as the Muslim leadership. More important is the question as to what needs to be done to tackle the challenge. Clearly, the decades of demonisation of the community – in textbooks, media, television, movies and political and cultural discourse – over the past several decades, especially since the Partition is beginning to bear fruits. The history taught in Indian schools and colleges is so toxic and distorted that even Muslim children grow up loathing Muslim rulers who did nothing but demolish temples and spread Islam at the sword point!The housing apartheid is only one part of the story. It’s only a symptom, not the disease. The Hindutva mindset, which blames Muslims for dismembering Mother India, isn’t evidently limited to a miniscule minority anymore. (It chooses to ignore that the then Congress leadership, Nehru and Patel in particular, were as much responsible for Partition as Jinnah had been but then that’s another debate.)
The continuing political and economic instability and the parallel rise of militant groups across the border hasn’t helped either. The three wars and constant, explosive friction with Pakistan and the terror strikes attributed to the Lashkar and others have only added to the Indian Muslim’s woes. s a result, he has ended up as a helpless, pathetic punching bag for everyone. He finds himself forever in the dock both for the sins of his ancestors and for the crimes of the neighbours. Politicians use his vote only to play with him when they come to power. Instead of demanding and getting what’s his due, he’s busy being grateful forever begging for security and state crumbs. dismal state of affairs, anyway you look at it. There are two ways to deal with it. Either live with it condemning the future generations to face even greater hostility and hardship in this country or gird one’s self to take on the problem. The battle needs to be fought on many fronts – political, economic, ideological and on the media’s front.
The Indian Muslims need to get out of their ghettoes and mental and psychological shell to reach out and interact with the larger Hindu society. They as a people have a serious image problem and urgent steps are desperately needed to correct it. Majority of Indian society remains reasonable and tolerant. They need to win over it with their conduct and actions and with Islam’s message of universal brotherhood, just as the early Muslims arriving on the Malabar coast managed to do. Not an easy task by any means. But the alternative is total peril.

The writer is a commode of South Asian affairs And Child of Ahshraf Syed Arab . Email: a ij [email protected]

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 12 Jul 2012 10:26

Apparently in the latest Green vs Purer Green, the Purer Green were armed with Pistols and AK-47s, stormed a building, and worked up 3 floors shooting and killing sleeping policemen. Casualties are likely to rise.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jul 2012 10:42

abhishek_sharma wrote:Here is an example of what the "benign power" does for "righteousness".

And no, this is not the worst mistake done by the "best superpower". The list is pretty long.

GWB has gone on record as to admitting they attacked the wrong country: Eyerak!

Just because a bengin soup doesn't know its geography, innocent people get killed?

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 12 Jul 2012 11:40

I've great respect for Shiv sir and other foiks' opinions who are dumping on US but I tend to agree with SBajwa on this one.

Does US follow its own interests? Yes
Does India follow its own interests? Yes

Is US a moral power? Yes and No (Yes at home and if the foreign policy initiative abroad serves US interests. Probably No in all other cases.)
Is India a moral power? Yes, atleast that's what I believe.

Does US want to harm India? It doesn't seem so at the moment. It may try to if our interests clash.
Does India want to harm US? No

Do our interests clash? I think No, atleast that's what the State Dept and External Affairs Minister tells us.

Do our interests align vis-a-vis China? to a certain extent, though India isn't enthused about US's tilt to Asia and rightly so..

I think the biggest flak US gets is for its policies vis-a-vis the Pukis.

Do our interests align on Porkis? Before I try to answer that - lets try to find out what are our interests in Porkistan? Our PM, External Affairs Minister, Home Minister etc. have told us that a stable, peaceful and democractic Pakistan is in our best interests. Is that what US wants? Yes, that's what the US administration says overtly and so does the Kerry-Lugar Bill stipulate.

It seems we still have apprehensions about certain US policies that seek to transform Porkistan. Lets break them down.

Does India have a problem with US civilian aid to porkies? I don't think $2 billion a year can seriously transform the economy of Porkis. Porkis remain incompetent and unproductive. India is content with this and that is reflected in toning down of Indian opposition to US aid today compared to GWB era. Even if US wanted to prop up Porkis, US just doesn't have the resources to flood Porkis to India's level given the size and growth of Indian economy

Does India have a problem with US diplomatic support to Porkis? India and the US have been increasingly seeing eye to eye on a whole host of areas lately. No denunciation of India on Kashmir, diplomatic support to India on various international agencies etc etc.

Does India have a problem with US military aid to Porkis? Yes, that's a problem but the situation has improved. Back in 80s Porkis got cutting edge F-16s, today just at the quality of weaponary the US is willing to sell to India compared to Pak. Is selling to Porkis justifiable? No, the inbreds will use that against us.

IMO, the trajectory is favorable and there is greater understanding of each other's policies.

We need greater positive leverage on US to be able to raise the cost for US trying to do things that are inimical to our interests.