LCA News and Discussions

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Jul 2012 03:45

mahadevbhu wrote:@kartik

That fellow youtube Terence Fornoff mentioned that the Mig 21 had some sort of Israeli jammer.

I wonder whats the jammer/EW (Tarang? Mayavi?) in the LCA?

What hardware component propagates those jamming waves...the radar itself?

The integrated EW suite will be Mayavi but it will probably be qualified with the same jamming kit as the MiG-21 Bison i.e. the Elta EL/L-8222.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jul 2012 06:18

EL/L-8251 could make it to SEAD, not?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/395 ... CN1826.JPG

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Jul 2012 07:26

SaiK wrote:EL/L-8251 could make it to SEAD, not?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/395 ... CN1826.JPG

Yeah, and it comes with turbine to generate additional power.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/9/36129.pdf

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 11 Jul 2012 12:49

^kartik

The Hell Is This Aircraft At HAL's Defexpo Pavilion?-Livefist

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Jul 2012 14:56

If one reads carefully the above article then we have reference to LCA Mark-3 but also AMCA is referred as 25 tons, rather than normal 20 tons category

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Jul 2012 15:33

^^That could very well be Gora Dork Media (GDM).

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 11 Jul 2012 19:43

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1932 Test Flights successfully. (09-July-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,LSP3-73,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1931 Test Flights successfully. (07-July-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,LSP3-72,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

member_23626 · Post by **member_23626** » 11 Jul 2012 19:47

vic wrote:If one reads carefully the above article then we have reference to LCA Mark-3 but also AMCA is referred as 25 tons, rather than normal 20 tons category

Don't take that joker seriously, he is a MUTU of highest order and a dhimmi at best, other than good pics, most of his farticles are just rants/whines/moanings of how Indian defence is not upto the mark, I wonder if that idiot even thinks before writing.... that drawing was more of a general drawing than anything, no need of taking it seriously...

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Jul 2012 20:59

Am not talking about error err govinda err aroor but serious of articles in Swedish mags after Saraswat

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 11 Jul 2012 21:09

we are yet to induct LCA MK.1 and there is discussion going on for Mk.3

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Jul 2012 21:15

Seems like bogus report. Mk-3 most likely won't happen.

Still waiting on results from the GOA trials. Would be nice to see more video footage.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 11 Jul 2012 21:37

suryag wrote:Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1932 Test Flights successfully. (09-July-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,LSP3-73,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1931 Test Flights successfully. (07-July-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-234,PV5-36,LSP3-72,LSP4-56,LSP5-101,LSP7-4,NP1-4)

SuryaG, thanks a lot for your posts.

I must share this with you. A few days back, while relaxing over ny eveing cuppa tea, I had what I call, an intuitive moment.

That the LCA MK1 was going to be a serious CAP/CAS A/C. Kick @rse type.

So I asked myself a question: Why?

Inspite of its reportedly slow progress, inspite of the criticism subjected to it at the highest level, TEAM TEJAS is progressing at a pace which can indicate of of two things. Their ineptitude; or their desire to deliver above expectations. I choose the latter.

They have been subjected to various shocks: sanctions; stingy budget hand outs; a certain lack of support from certain endusers. Moving design targets.

The next question was when? Only when they were ready to deliver a product which would prove its worth!

Even if my above hypothesis is wrong, the experience gained by this project will stand us in good stead in our quest for independence in A/C design and development. From a Khan who screws us by arming Pakistan with armaments for a non-existet AQ Navy and Airforce and the Russians who provide shoddy after sales service and their realisation that they can wring us for more money.

I always ask two questions when things arent happening as they shoud have. The first, is what most people dwell on. What went wrong?

The second is to ask, which the above people should also ask is: what went right!

member_23364 · Post by **member_23364** » 11 Jul 2012 23:28

@rajanb

Having worked at HAL, Bangalore for a considerable amount of time in the early 2000's, i would choose ineptitude as the reason.

I do not know if things have changed, but just to quote a couple of instances, a Rs 8 lakh imported autoclave (an instrument that was invented to sterilize/heat up things to a very precise temperature) was routinely used to heat up employees lunches in steel boxes. And yes, this type of abuse of expensive equipment was the standard, not the anomaly. Employees put their feet up the tables and take a siesta after lunch, keeping the phone off the hook-lest it disturb their sleep. But if this is the organization which has been entrusted to produce the LCA, good luck with it.

If ever a real life documentary was made for life @HAL, well, i would love to see the public reaction.

Many will retort that HAL might have changed in the last decade, indeed, if that has happened, i sincerely wish HAL all the best.

Note, I do not have first hand experience of the other entities associated with LCA-DRDO, GTRE, et al and I would really want the LCA to succeed.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Jul 2012 23:58

K Mehta wrote:^kartik

The Hell Is This Aircraft At HAL's Defexpo Pavilion?-Livefist

Thanks K Mehta..this is just some really badly drawn image that seems quite similar to the initial images of the KF-X that South Korea is going to develop. the KF-X design has now developed into a far better looking thing..this initial one was grotesque! It certainly has nothing to do with the LCA Mk3 or the AMCA

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jul 2012 00:10

^don't know if the autoclave would have served 30K odd employees heating up their lunches.. still, it would abusive amount of time to get it done and far fetched. I am sure, you are venting a bit, but I agree your PoV that the general attitude at HAL is largely laid back [quite plausible given gov institution].

I am not sure LCA is yet in the busy production life cycle stage yet to broadly discuss about production rate, quality, etc.. I think you are pointing some genuine concerns that is not solvable. GTRE is one area of concern even to aam public.

Decentralization and more privatization of subsystems to begin with, could be a better step towards future. But, we still do not know the facts.. and we can't just go about assuming based on few concerns.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 12 Jul 2012 06:49

Guru_Tat wrote:@rajanb

Having worked at HAL, Bangalore for a considerable amount of time in the early 2000's, i would choose ineptitude as the reason.

I do not know if things have changed, but just to quote a couple of instances, a Rs 8 lakh imported autoclave (an instrument that was invented to sterilize/heat up things to a very precise temperature) was routinely used to heat up employees lunches in steel boxes. And yes, this type of abuse of expensive equipment was the standard, not the anomaly. Employees put their feet up the tables and take a siesta after lunch, keeping the phone off the hook-lest it disturb their sleep. But if this is the organization which has been entrusted to produce the LCA, good luck with it.

If ever a real life documentary was made for life @HAL, well, i would love to see the public reaction.

Many will retort that HAL might have changed in the last decade, indeed, if that has happened, i sincerely wish HAL all the best.

Note, I do not have first hand experience of the other entities associated with LCA-DRDO, GTRE, et al and I would really want the LCA to succeed.

What were you doing there? Who did you work with? And please don't tell me that you were a young intern, only there for a few months, so much so that no one would remember you.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 12 Jul 2012 06:59

Arun Menon wrote:What were you doing there? Who did you work with? And please don't tell me that you were a young intern, only there for a few months, so much so that no one would remember you.

I don't think everyone knows everyone in HAL, it has more than 30,000 employees. He has shared his experiences, and he has also said things might not be the same now.
He didn't say that everyone's lunch boxes are heated in autoclave, just that some employees in that division used to do that.

My dad worked in HAL for 30+ years. I have heard stories from him too. At NAL, I have seen how much work the employees used to do in late 90s.

Are the PSUs as efficient as the private sector? obviously not. Is HAL a lost cause? No. Things are improving, and will continue to improve over time.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Jul 2012 07:15

And I don't think we should shoot the messenger if the message isn't some state secret.

If HAL was the epitome of efficiency like stereotyped Germany then the IJT would've been in service today. Not rocket science, especially after the LCA.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jul 2012 09:59

Guru_Tat wrote:@rajanb

Having worked at HAL, Bangalore for a considerable amount of time in the early 2000's, i would choose ineptitude as the reason.

I do not know if things have changed, but just to quote a couple of instances, a Rs 8 lakh imported autoclave (an instrument that was invented to sterilize/heat up things to a very precise temperature) was routinely used to heat up employees lunches in steel boxes. And yes, this type of abuse of expensive equipment was the standard, not the anomaly. Employees put their feet up the tables and take a siesta after lunch, keeping the phone off the hook-lest it disturb their sleep. But if this is the organization which has been entrusted to produce the LCA, good luck with it.

If ever a real life documentary was made for life @HAL, well, i would love to see the public reaction.

Many will retort that HAL might have changed in the last decade, indeed, if that has happened, i sincerely wish HAL all the best.

Note, I do not have first hand experience of the other entities associated with LCA-DRDO, GTRE, et al and I would really want the LCA to succeed.

Very interesting.

I started my career as a IBM HW engineer (late 60s) and I used to repair punch card machines. There was a particular machine to the back of a huge bank of machines. Quite often it was reported as not working! And mostly after lunch. All I had to do was change the fuse. One day I had to do preventive maintenance on that machine and to the rather lovely, flirtatious operator's surprise, I opened the cover and found a metal lunch box inside. I had a eureka moment. She used to place the lunch box inside first thing in the morning when her colleagues were trooping in. But she used to remove the metal box while it was still on! At times it brushed an exposed low DC voltage point and the fuse used to blow!. The company was a Fortune100 MNC company in those days! She was suitably warned. There was no union to back her up.

The point is, that it depends on the individual.

So when the LCA is found to have something tweaked, it needs to go back to the drawing board. i.e the people who have designed the assemblies. My hope, (Maybe a long shot) comes from my visit to ADA and I was impressed by the dedication, the fire, the patriotism in the group that I met. The group who uses the most esoteric desktops, connected to a mainframe where they churn out designs and changes.

Only after that does it goes to HAL from the various design input agencies, some within HAL.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jul 2012 10:01

*duplicate* self deleted

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2012 10:04

People put their feet on tables during their lunch break? That is bad? A lunch break is a break and all factories in India give their employees between 30 minutes and 1 hour to take a break. Dozing after lunch before the "get your asses back to work" siren is perfectly OK. A post lunch power nap can only prevent drowsiness at work. Only fresh out of college IT coolies I know were forced to have lunch at their desk while working.

Until I went abroad I used to think that putting my feet on tables and dozing or chatting was bad because I used to get scolded by my granny for that. When I saw a chief resident surgeon doing that on the chief nurse's ward desk while making a free long distance call to Australia on a hospital phone I learned a little bit more about the real world. Everyone lives and learns and not everyone has had equal opportunities in being informed.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jul 2012 10:22

^^^ I've even had a haircut and a head massage during my lunch break

But the point is do your work well and hey use your free time well!

saje · Post by **saje** » 12 Jul 2012 12:46

The so called LCA MK3 steatlh (if true) displayed above seems to be too radically different from the current LCA version. If indeed DRDO is going about such a version, it would be another 'Late Combat....' in the making. Instead of going for a radically new design ( twin tails instead of one), we should go with a design which involves minor modifications to the current design. A case in point is the so called Blackhawk Stealth helicopter design shown in the below illustration. Notice how the stealth design follows the basic same shape of the original design.

A poster above lamented on how we are thinking about the MK3 even though the MK1 has not yet been inducted. But actually, this is the best time to start thinking of the MK3, if it has to see service in an acceptable timeframe! If we go about the MK3 using the same philosophy shown in case of the stealth Blackhawk, then I'm sure we can have a workable design at around the same time frame the AMCA prototype. This would ensure that we have a cheaper (than the FGFA) stealth aircraft (based on a proven design) ready in case the AMCA decides to go the F-35 way. Currently, among all the LCA variants I feel that the NP-2 comes closest to a stealth design and thus it should serve as the starting point for the stealth LCA. It would be great if some jingo could take the below illustration and convert it into a stealth version in the same manner as the Blackhawk shown above. Are there good enough engineers/designers out there?!!

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 12 Jul 2012 13:17

rajanb wrote: Very interesting.

I started my career as a IBM HW engineer (late 60s) and I used to repair punch card machines. There was a particular machine to the back of a huge bank of machines. Quite often it was reported as not working! And mostly after lunch. All I had to do was change the fuse. One day I had to do preventive maintenance on that machine and to the rather lovely, flirtatious operator's surprise, I opened the cover and found a metal lunch box inside. I had a eureka moment. She used to place the lunch box inside first thing in the morning when her colleagues were trooping in. But she used to remove the metal box while it was still on! At times it brushed an exposed low DC voltage point and the fuse used to blow!. The company was a Fortune100 MNC company in those days! She was suitably warned. There was no union to back her up.

The point is, that it depends on the individual.

So when the LCA is found to have something tweaked, it needs to go back to the drawing board. i.e the people who have designed the assemblies. My hope, (Maybe a long shot) comes from my visit to ADA and I was impressed by the dedication, the fire, the patriotism in the group that I met. The group who uses the most esoteric desktops, connected to a mainframe where they churn out designs and changes.

Only after that does it goes to HAL from the various design input agencies, some within HAL.

+1 million

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 12 Jul 2012 17:19

From the link posted by Pragnya,

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... rforce.htm

The LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) IOC certification was done in Jan 2011.There are delays. Induction is expected in this year, by which time all teething issues should hopefully be sorted out.

So can we safely assume that IOC 2 would be by end of this year with handing over LSP7, 8 and SP 1 to IAF, thus starting of induction of Tejas!! Also, the trials should be in their last leg now!!!

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jul 2012 17:25

^^^^ Only Leh left and also BVR missile test as far as I know. Will they, or won't they test the firing against a moving target? And the AoA improvement.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Jul 2012 17:50

So wake penetration tests are done?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Jul 2012 19:41

Guru_Tat wrote:@rajanb

Employees put their feet up the tables and take a siesta after lunch, keeping the phone off the hook-lest it disturb their sleep. But if this is the organization which has been entrusted to produce the LCA, good luck with it.

Yeah, I think you are right! I have seen folks at google do the same. They have sleeping pods there so they can snore in peace. Google is doomed as well!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Jul 2012 20:36

My boss does the same...my company us doomed too ??

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jul 2012 20:52

you know, this will all lead to dhoti shiver? it is a genuine SDRE behavior to utilize the max of anything available especially muffat mey.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 12 Jul 2012 21:45

If HAL was 10,000th as productive and innovative as Google its employees could sleep all they want.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Jul 2012 22:41

krishnan wrote:My boss does the same...my company us doomed too ??

I myself sleep after lunch in office almost everyday. Even though my boss knows , I don't give a fucckk. cause I know that it improves my productivity and gives me an edge. Plus I do not like to down a Red Bull every day after lunch. Ofcourse once or twice I have stretched things too far. I remember when I used to work in bangalore for a company. Now this company had a sick room consisting of a couple beds. One fine day I was feeling more than a little sleepy. I went to the sick room on the pretext of headache. And I woke up at 7.30 PM long after the office bus had left.

By the way some information afternoon siesta according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siesta#Sie ... r_cultures

The concept of a midday nap is also prominent in other tropical or subtropical countries, where the afternoon heat dramatically reduces work productivity. The Washington Post of February 13, 2007 reports at length on studies in Greece that indicate that those who nap have less risk of heart attack.[4]

An example of a siesta-like habit can be found in Serbia and Slovenia. Especially among older citizens, it is common to observe the so-called "house rule", requiring people to refrain from telephoning or visiting each other between 2 p.m. and 5 p.m., as people are supposed to be resting; especially since lunch in Serbia and Slovenia, eaten usually between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m., is the main dish of the day. In some southern German-speaking regions, the Mittagspause (de:Mittagspause) or Mittagsruhe (de:Mittagsruhe) is still customary; shops close, and children are expected to play quietly indoors. Siesta is quite common in Italy too, especially in summer.

In South Asia, the idea of a post-lunch nap is common, and the idea of going to sleep after a light massage with mustard oil to induce drowsiness was very popular before industrialization. It was also very popular to consume a light snack during this ritual; it was thought that this practice would make one a better person.[citation needed] In Bengal, the word which describes the concept is bhat-ghum, literally meaning "rice-sleep", a nap after lunch. In north India a colloquial term sustānā (सुस्ताना), which literally means "taking small nap" (possibly of Persian origin), is used, although it does not necessarily mean siesta but it is used in same way. According ayurveda vamkukshi/wamkukshi (nap in the afternoon)वामकुक्षी for 15-30 minutes after lunch is good for your health, it does not mean deep sleep but just lying down.

Afternoon sleep is also a common habit in China and Taiwan after the midday meal. This is called wujiao (午覺) in Mainland China Chinese or wuxiu (午休）in Taiwan Mandarin. Almost all schools in Mainland China and Taiwan have a half-hour nap period right after lunch. This is a time when all lights are out and one is not allowed to do anything other than rest or sleep.

Some Japanese offices have special rooms known as napping rooms for their workers to take a nap during lunch break or after overtime work.

In Islam, it is encouraged to take a nap before Dhuhr (midday), for those doing tahajjud later in the night.[original research?]

In the United States, the United Kingdom, and a growing number of other countries, a short sleep has been referred to as a "power nap", a term coined by Cornell University social psychologist James Maas[5] and recognized by other research scientists such as Sara Mednick[6] as well as in the popular press.[7]

Seems like many countries around the world known for their productive citizens use this concept to boost their productivity in post lunch session.

On the other hand if their is scope for improvement wrt HAL's work culture as Guru_Tat ji has implied , every attempt should be made to do so.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jul 2012 22:45

moral:
if you doze off on work, it is fine but don't snore
if you use office equipments, it is fine but don't misuse it.

may be we need production engineering and management thread. /OT

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Jul 2012 23:57

shiv wrote:People put their feet on tables during their lunch break? That is bad? A lunch break is a break and all factories in India give their employees between 30 minutes and 1 hour to take a break. Dozing after lunch before the "get your asses back to work" siren is perfectly OK. A post lunch power nap can only prevent drowsiness at work. Only fresh out of college IT coolies I know were forced to have lunch at their desk while working.

I work at an airplane OEM where an engineer used to put his feet up on the table during meetings in front of his boss. And I've seen quite a few engineers who would sleep during their lunch breaks as well and ask not to be disturbed at that time. Neither incident tells me that those particular engineers were useless or that they didn't do their work during the time that they were supposed to be working.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Jul 2012 00:01

saje wrote:The so called LCA MK3 steatlh (if true) displayed above seems to be too radically different from the current LCA version. If indeed DRDO is going about such a version, it would be another 'Late Combat....' in the making. Instead of going for a radically new design ( twin tails instead of one), we should go with a design which involves minor modifications to the current design.

IT IS NOT TRUE> THAT IS NOT THE LCA MK3 !! There is no image of an LCA Mk3 out there!! it’s just something that Dr Saraswat mentioned as a plan beyond Mk2, which is in the works. I don’t think that anyone needs to start criticizing DRDO on how the Mk3 is that or this when there is no Mk3 design out there.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jul 2012 00:12

It is all about work environment.. some orgs need very strict regime.. normally, engineering and industrial setup do not face end user and customers.

Only when a customer comes by or when some delegates visit or during inspection, this dozing happens, then I don't know which rule book applies.

just leaving aside job, work etc.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Jul 2012 01:18

I don't think there will be an mk-3 at all. I think we will end up putting our efforts into AMCA unless we plan a light stealthy version in the future. In that case AMCA will end up growing in size.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Jul 2012 04:03

The LCA, I feel, will need to reach its logical end; an all deshi plane.I think a MKIII is needed for that reason alone. Outside of that they need a viable platform on which to try new techs.

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 13 Jul 2012 08:24

AMCA is 10 - 15 years away, LCA is a tested platform, we should enhanced it further till mk3.

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 13 Jul 2012 09:29

Elbit reveals CockpitNG avionics concept

Elbit has been marketing its latest cockpit display and avionics technology at this year's Farnborough Air Show.
Labeled as their CockpitNG, the system is centered around a large, central, touch-screen display area, which includes all avionic components in one display. The display system can also be fully integrated with helmet mounted and head-up displays. The technology can be adapted for helicopter, trainer or fighter upgrades.

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... pt-344583/

According to Elbit all of the system's components incorporate multi-touch-screen technology to allow the pilot to operate the aircraft in a smooth & customisable manner.
This modular solution enhances mission performance and reduces aircrew workload, and can be tailored to multiple platforms offering full multi-mission support for attack, emergency services, training and air support. The modular and flexible high-resolution displays are all video-capable and feature extended day and night field-of-view.

The Elbit development team says that to ensure timely and accurate presentation of mission data, the CockpitNG includes a full suite of next generation avionics applications, simultaneously supporting Windows-based and real-time applications. Advanced data and sensor fusion, a smart electronic flight bag and a 3D vector map including embedded video and highway-in-the-sky (HITS) representation are fully integrated into the solution.
The team claims that embedded Virtual Avionics (EVA) with full support for virtual radar, EW and targeting pod further extend the solution to provide a cost-effective, virtual advanced fighter for training purposes.

The IAF & IN are believed to have zeroed in earlier this year on the CockpitNG option for LCA Mk2 , which was originally developed by ELBIT Systems for the global F-16 upgrade market, and can be easily sourced from HALBIT Avionics Pvt Ltd, the joint venture between ELBIT Systems and the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Please also take note of the Aircraft in picture at HALBIT counter... It shows again the speculated Mk3..