Indian Interests

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D Roy
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby D Roy » 11 Jul 2012 18:57

Rabindranath got the prize because of W.B yeats and other Irish poets who held sway over the literature prize in that period.

otherwise the english turds denied the prize to every patriotic Indian from J.C Bose to Satyen Bose. Plus Satyen Bose was also not on good terms with Chachaji.

and look it is well known that A Sen only got the prize after he married a certain somebody on the Nobel committee. A Sen's seemingly ever lasting wait for the ( Bank of Sweden) prize and the subsequent conferment of it was staple talk in the eco dept of Presidency.
As was jagdish Bhagwati's claim to the prize as well.
And by the way, A Sen's early work on poverty and underemployment was essentially with a certain Maurice Dobbs in Cambridge. Do look up this luminary's name :mrgreen: if you have the time.



J.C Bose was a very close friend of both Vivekananda and Rabindranath. It was actually Vivekananda who made sure that Bose got the first ever American patent by an Asian for his Coherer via Sarah Bull Chapman.

I have a brilliant book in Bengali which is a biography of J.C Bose and has some of his conversations with Vivekananda.
Last edited by D Roy on 11 Jul 2012 19:55, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Atri » 11 Jul 2012 19:50

The fun part of Amartya Sen is that he received "Bharat-Ratna" immediately after he was nominated for Nobel. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Hari Seldon » 11 Jul 2012 21:24

^^ sure, just like RG nominated himself for the bharat ratna after his landslide. #aakthoo

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby SriKumar » 12 Jul 2012 04:35

D Roy wrote: I have a brilliant book in Bengali which is a biography of J.C Bose and has some of his conversations with Vivekananda.
Can you comment a bit about what the topics of conversation were? Was it about education, science or something similar? Please to post any major (or minor) points of discussion. If there is an Anglais/Angrezi translation available anywhere, I would be interested.....thanks.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_23626 » 12 Jul 2012 04:37

SriKumar wrote:
D Roy wrote: I have a brilliant book in Bengali which is a biography of J.C Bose and has some of his conversations with Vivekananda.
Can you comment a bit about what the topics of conversation were? Was it about education, science or something similar? Please to post any major (or minor) points of discussion. If there is an Anglais/Angrezi translation available anywhere, I would be interested.....thanks.

Royji, is there an online Hindi version of the book? I would be really interested in reading it...please provide the title of the book

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby abhishek_sharma » 12 Jul 2012 05:47

Views from the Right

Talking to Pakistan

RSS weekly Panchjanya has taken a dim view of the recently held India-Pakistan foreign secretary level talks in Delhi. In its editorial, the Panchjanya maintained that visiting Pakistan Foreign Secretary Jalil Abbas Jilani’s meeting with separatist leaders from the Kashmir valley, ahead of the talks with his counterpart, exposed his claim of bringing a “message of peace” from Islamabad.

It criticises Islamabad’s denial of the complicity of Pakistan’s state actors in supporting terror activities in India, claiming it came despite “concrete proof” provided by the confessions of Ajmal Kasab and Abu Jundal. It says that Islamabad’s offer of a “joint investigation” was just a tactic to scupper the investigations into the Mumbai terror attacks of 2008.

The editorial chastises the government for beginning “talks” with Pakistan, saying that Pakistan uses these talks as proof of its attempts at achieving “resolution through dialogue” at international fora, while failing to address India’s security concerns, or doing enough to deal with terrorism within its own borders. The editorial suggests that the government take a “stern” position against Pakistan’s delaying tactics. “It is for India to think what stern steps we should take (against Pakistan),” the editorial concludes.

Relief for Purohit

REPORTS that witnesses in the army’s court of inquiry did not corroborate Shrikant Purohit’s alleged terror links in the Malegaon blasts case appear to have relieved the Sangh Parivar, with RSS journal Organiser prominently displaying a news report on the subject in a recent issue.

Referring to the reported clean chit to Purohit in the 2008 Malegaon blast case, an article in Organiser has alleged that the development exposes a conspiracy against “Bharat, Hindus and the [sic] patriotic people” and charged “a section of Congress leaders and some ministers in the UPA government” with trying to prove that “saffron terror” exists.

The Organiser article asserts that it is “beyond any doubt” that other “Hindu saints” accused in the Samjhauta Express train blasts, like Swami Aseemanand and Sadhvi Pragya Singh, are “innocent”, and calls for their release.

“The Army probe puts the UPA government in the dock. If Purohit is not guilty in the Malegaon blast case, then neither Sadhvi Pragya nor Swami Aseemanand are guilty. Should they not be released without wasting time? The failure of NIA in filing a chargesheet against them for four years is sufficient ground to prove

them innocent,” says the Organiser report.

Defeat Naxals

REFERRING to the “hullabaloo” over the recent CRPF attack against Naxals in Chhattisgarh that killed many tribals, an editorial in the Organiser has used statements from the director general of the security force — “which is at the forefront of the anti-Red operation” — to dispel apprehensions that innocent tribals were killed in the BJP-ruled state, as “claimed by some”.

The editorial alleges that Union Tribal Affairs Minister K.C. Deo’s statement that those killed in the encounter were innocent villagers is part of the Congress party’s “true characteristic style” of speaking with “forked tongue(s)”, pointing to the home minister’s statement that the operation was genuine.

In the process, the editorial defends Chief Minister Raman Singh’s assertion that the Naxals use innocent tribals as a human shield, reasoning that there could be casualties in a “pitched fight in darkness”. It makes clear, however, that this cannot be equated to the “cold-blooded murder the Naxals indulge in”. The editorial wants security forces to be allowed to function without “political interference”.

Compiled by Ravish Tiwari

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby AbhiJ » 13 Jul 2012 20:30

I think there is a Loop Hole in Africa waiting to be exploited. Khan, Massa and Panda are there everywhere with Resident Embassies.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _India.PNG

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_23367 » 13 Jul 2012 23:40

US pushing India to hike cancer drug price
http://india.nydailynews.com/newsarticl ... drug-price

Bayer, which earned $3.4 billion last year, was charging over $5,000 a month for standard doses, according to Indian government data cited by the Post. The cost of a generic version: $157 a month.



I think the effort by aamir khan to bringforth the issue of generic drugs in India might have an impact on this?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby AbhiJ » 14 Jul 2012 21:42

One of the most repulsive images I bear in mind of Delhi is a scene in JNU, when Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez delivered a special lecture. It was like a rock concert and Chavez, who is a scion of the same imbecilic philosophy that once destroyed the great economies of South America, was the star. As students pumped their hands in the air and cheered him for his anti-capitalist calling, I looked at their faces. I knew those faces. They were from homes that once profited from India’s socialist corruption, and then from Manmohan’s revolution.


It’s a City of Undeserved Privilege

Wonder Why the Country is like that.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby g.sarkar » 14 Jul 2012 22:38

D Roy wrote:J.C Bose was a very close friend of both Vivekananda and Rabindranath. It was actually Vivekananda who made sure that Bose got the first ever American patent by an Asian for his Coherer via Sarah Bull Chapman.
I have a brilliant book in Bengali which is a biography of J.C Bose and has some of his conversations with Vivekananda.

Could you please tell me the name of that book?
J.C. Bose and his wife Abala Bose were also very close to Nivedita right up to the time of her early death.
Gautam

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby sudarshan » 15 Jul 2012 01:04

May I trouble the learned Maulanas here for some gyaan? My questions are below.

(1) I remember reading once, in some post in BR, the following interesting tidbit. I just wanted to confirm, and, if it is true, to get a couple of references (if they exist) to the veracity of what I read. Is it true that during one of the 19th century British surveys of India (1881??), the British had an entry for caste in their survey? That many Indians responded to this entry saying "I don't know my caste," and that the British, in response, simply copied over the entries in the "occupation" field to the "caste" field? That this is the basis for the origin of hundreds and thousands of occupation-based "castes" in India, whereas in ancient India, there were only four major classifications? Is it further true that the British, in pursuit of their "divide-and-rule" policy, deliberately exacerbated the divisions between these newly created occupational "castes?"

(2) I've been thinking of ways to drive it into the Western psyche, that it is Pakistan which is obsessed with India, that India wouldn't care about the existence or destruction of Pakistan, if it weren't for the issue of state-sponsored terrorism. The obdurate Western psyche of course is convinced that it is all India's fault. Or it could be cognitive dissonance - I really don't care. My idea was to point to the Indian movie industry. Of all the hundreds of thousands of movies that have been created in independent India since 1947, how many of them even mention Pakistan by name? I'd be surprised if the number was more than a handful. This is my evidence to show that psychologically, Pakistan is simply not on the radar screen of the Indian consciousness. This naturally brings up the question of how many Pakistani movies mention India (or the "K" word). So - does anybody here have any stats on this, or any idea of the level of mention of India/Kashmir in Paki movies? Is it a lot higher than the few parts-per-million level of acknowledgment of Pak in Indian movies? If my theory is correct, this would be an intriguing hint into the psyches of the two respective nations (India/Pak).

Thanks in advance. If anybody thinks I'm barking up the wrong trees here, you can let me know in a civilized manner, without name-calling.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 15 Jul 2012 05:58

KP Nayar's bio is full of bile and is an effort to mislead the people of India.

Thats one guy who is wrongly named as Kuldip.
Should be Kulbrasht

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Jul 2012 06:29


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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prasanna » 15 Jul 2012 12:56

sudarshan wrote:May I trouble the learned Maulanas here for some gyaan? My questions are below.

(1) I remember reading once, in some post in BR, the following interesting tidbit. I just wanted to confirm, and, if it is true, to get a couple of references (if they exist) to the veracity of what I read. Is it true that during one of the 19th century British surveys of India (1881??), the British had an entry for caste in their survey? That many Indians responded to this entry saying "I don't know my caste," and that the British, in response, simply copied over the entries in the "occupation" field to the "caste" field? That this is the basis for the origin of hundreds and thousands of occupation-based "castes" in India, whereas in ancient India, there were only four major classifications? Is it further true that the British, in pursuit of their "divide-and-rule" policy, deliberately exacerbated the divisions between these newly created occupational "castes?"


The Indian Caste System and The British - Ethnographic Mapping and the Construction of the British Census in India

What seems, however, to have confused the British, was the fact that when they asked Indians to identify the caste, tribe or race for census purposes, they received a bewildering variety of responses. Often the respondent gave the name of a religious sect, a sub-caste, an exogamous sept or section a hypergamous group, titular designation, occupation or the name of the region he came from. Obviously Indian self identifying concepts were quite different from those concepts that the British expected. In response to this problem, those in charge of the census data took it upon themselves to: "begin a laborious and most difficult process of sorting, referencing, cross-referencing, and corresponding with local authorities, which ultimately results in the compilation of a table showing the distribution of the inhabitants of India by Caste, Tribe, Race, or Nationality." Certainly this leaves a great deal of room for error. It also virtually ignores the fact that many Indians, when questioned, did not identify themselves in the way that the British expected. Rather than ask themselves why this was, the British appear to have assumed that either the respondents did not understand the question or that they were incapable of correctly answering the question. It never seems to have occurred to any one involved with the census that the British may have been asking the type of question that had a variety of correct answers depending upon the circumstances in which the question was asked[/b]. It is interesting to note that when modern sociologists posed the same type of question to Indians in the 1960s, they too received a wide variety of responses. The simplest explanation for this is that on a day to day basis caste may not be the most important factor in the life of a Hindu.
........
Such was the case during the census of 1891. In an effort to arrange various castes in order of precedence: "... functional grouping is based less on the occupation that prevails in each case in the present day than on that which is traditional with it, or which gave rise to its differentiation from the rest of the community." This action virtually removed Indians from the progress of history and condemned them to an unchanging position and place in time. In one sense, it is rather ironic that the British, who continually accused the Indian people of having a static society, should then impose a construct that denied progress. In ways such as this, it is possible to see how the census began to increase the rigidity of the caste system, particulary when one considers the fact that one of the primary ways that a caste could traditionally raise its status was to change its occupation. Once again, the British appear to be creating the situation where their interpretation of Indian society is validated through their own actions. In a similar way, Beverley's analysis of the 1872 census sought to prove continuity with the past by attempting to identify purity and impurity of race in ways that would fit with British theories of Indian history and British notions of group abilities and temperaments.
...............
The censuses forced the Indian social system into a written schematic in a way that had never been experienced in the past. While the Mughals had issued written decrees on the status of individual castes, there had never been a formal systematic attempt to organize and schedule all of the castes in an official document until the advent of the British censuses. The data was compiled on the basis of British understanding of India. This understanding was deeply affected by British concepts of their own past, and by British notions of race and the importance of race in relation to the human condition. Further, the intellectual framework, such as that provided by anthropology and phrenology, that was used to help create the ideas surrounding the concept of race, was foreign to the intellectual traditions of India. These concepts endured well into the 20th century and affected the analysis of the censuses throughout this period. Risley, for example, used anthropometric measurements, which were directly descended from anthropological and phrenological methodology, in his ordering of castes following the census of 1901. These same notions led to a classification of intelligence and abilities based on physical attributes, and this in turn led to employment opportunities being limited to certain caste groupings that displayed the appropriate attributes. Indians attempted to incorporate themselves into this evolving system by organizing caste sabhas with the purpose of attaining improved status within the system. This ran contrary to traditional views of the purpose of the caste system and imposed an economic basis. With this, the relevance and importance of the spiritual, non material rational for caste was degraded and caste took on a far more material meaning. In this way, caste began to intrude more pervasively into daily life and status became even more coveted and rigid. In a sense, caste became politicized as decisions regarding rank increasingly fell into the political rather than the spiritual sphere of influence. With this politicization, caste moved closer to class in connotation. The actions of the Indian people that contributed to this process were not so an much acquiescence to the British construction as they were pragmatic reactions to the necessities of material life. In expropriating the knowledge base of Indian society, the British had forced Indian society and the caste system to execute adjustments in order to prosper within the rubric of the British regime.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby D Roy » 15 Jul 2012 13:45

Wikipedia doctoring is being done by the reds also. Just read this page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallojula_Koteswara_Rao


Also read Prabhakaran's page. All non-green terrorist movements are being shepherded by gora cliques.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prasanna » 15 Jul 2012 14:31

D Roy wrote:Wikipedia doctoring is being done by the reds also. Just read this page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallojula_Koteswara_Rao


Also read Prabhakaran's page. All non-green terrorist movements are being shepherded by gora cliques.


It's understandable why after reading this
Image

Kishenji alias Koteswara Rao, a former hindu priest became an atheist barbarian and killed his own country folks, all in the name of revolution.

Prabhakaran, a born hindu became a christian and killed thousands and spread anarchy in his homeland, all the while his backers reaped the harvest of souls through conversions.
http://ltte-christian-ties.blogspot.com/
One of the best kept secrets is that the LTTE had many ties to the Church. For example, most of the top cadre of the LTTE were apparently Christians:

Prabhakaran aka Pirapaharan (Christian convert, a lapsed Methodist)
S.P. Tamil Selvam - Christian
Balraj (Balasegaram Kandiah) - Christian
Pottu Amman (Christian)
Prabhakaran’s son Charles Anthony - Christian
Anton Balasingham - Christian
Soosai (Thillaiyampalam Sivanesan) - Christian
Thenmozhi Rajaratnam (nickname Dhanu), Rajiv Gandhi's suicide bomber assassin - Christian


An internationally-financed Christian evangelism was initiated in LTTE-held areas in the 1990s. The Ceylon American Mission embarked upon a 'church planting campaign'. They opened new orphanages and new churches. The Methodist Church did likewise. The Roman Catholic church under its social service arm, HUDEC was not far behind. The pro-LTTE 'TamilNet' website was unabashedly anti-Hindu, anti-Buddhist, anti-Indian and pro-Christian. 'Tamil Canadian' republished articles from Christian journals but failed to reproduce Hindu media clips. The 'Tamil Nation' in London even urged Tamils to jettison celebrating the traditional Hindu new year in mid-April.

The LTTE discouraged people from following the time-honored Tamil Hindu custom of cremation. It supported the burial of the dead. It attempted to jettison the traditional Tamil wedding ceremony introducing a civil ceremony instead. It encouraged beef-eating. It promoted the use of so-called Dravidian names that had no basis in our history. While Hindu temples flourished in Government-held areas, they were neglected in LTTE-held territory. The LTTE strategy entailed a de-Hinduization of Tamil identity. Was this not Christian evangelization under the guise of a Tamil revolt?


all forms of barbarians are supported, after all they kill the sub-human heathens to make way for the supposedly superior christian aryans to take over and rule.
the twin objectives of colonization and conversion using violence as a tool are still going on.


everyone who wants to see the bigger picture needs to read documents linked here
http://www.sabha.info/research/aif.html

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby sudarshan » 15 Jul 2012 19:05

Wow, thank you, Prasanna. I will go through the link in detail. May I ask how you came upon this information? Just curious.

Any thoughts on my second question, gurus?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Jul 2012 20:07

>> It's understandable why after reading this

What is the name of this book? Thanks.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby JwalaMukhi » 15 Jul 2012 20:43

Prasanna wrote:all forms of barbarians are supported, after all they kill the sub-human heathens to make way for the supposedly superior christian aryans to take over and rule.
the twin objectives of colonization and conversion using violence as a tool are still going on.

To complete the picture of what Prasanna has shown...
NorthEast Srilanka was beach head for the EJs against SE India. Once the Andhra-TamilNadu belt was established for EJ, the need for srilankan beach head diminished. Hence, birather pirphaharan was expendable to find peace with his maker. Just as:after Liberian souls, hutu-tutsi souls are harvested, the movers and shakers of society are compromised, the capability to do maximum havoc using minimal set of head honchos, the EJ's mission is complete. The head honchos become expendble pawns,(very truly deserving for their actions), and are sacrificed at the whims of the handlers.

Only the top rung is targeted and they go after them with zealousness that has to be seen to be believed. Notice, YSR and his son. Once the loyal sepoys are created, it is easy to manipulate into hutu-tutsi style violence on demand, based on any of the imaginary and real differences. Harmony is held hostage and the willing gunghadins play a crucial role. That's has been the saga so far. The story continues even into orissa where swami Laxmanandaji was murdered.

Easy to concentrate on the top rung of movers and shakers (be it political or executive) and results are spectacular with minimal investment.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svenkat » 15 Jul 2012 21:13

The chozha king elara invaded lanka in pre-cristist era.There was a tamizh poet from eezham in the sangam age.The chozhas under Raja Raja annexed Eezham.

The tamils were way ahead of sinhalese in education/jobs.This was the real issue.

Ofcourse christism was used.Christist schools,colleges were in huage number in eezham.But tamils were discriminated.

Its a different issue that the tamils are the worst supporters of reservation(without exclusion of creamy layer) in India.

I wish we dont over simplify everything.Language played a big role.Tamils and Sinhalese speak different languages.Tamils had huge representation in civil services,but they were dicriminated by state on basis of language.Its this which fuelled the problem.A minority which had a distinct history,traditional homelans in North and East of Lanka was discriminated as second class citizens.

Even in India,tamils(many,not all) justify reservation on basis of language and its a fact that from times of tholkappiam,tamils have had a distinct linguistic identity and a geographical identity from Venkatam(tirupathi) to Kumari(Kanya Kumari).Lets not over simplify issues.Life has many shades of grey.
Last edited by svenkat on 15 Jul 2012 23:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prasanna » 15 Jul 2012 21:30

sudarshan wrote:Wow, thank you, Prasanna. I will go through the link in detail. May I ask how you came upon this information? Just curious.


a well informed guy named sanjay chaudhary used to post these things right here on this forum before he was banned.



abhishek_sharma wrote:>> It's understandable why after reading this

What is the name of this book? Thanks.

Hindu Manners, Customs and Ceremonies by Abbe J.A. Dubois, available at http://www.homeshop18.com/hindu-manners ... cid:13294/

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby JwalaMukhi » 15 Jul 2012 21:31

Prachanda of Nepal is a classic example. Commie being in close relationship with EJ peddlers.

How long will it be before a Prachanda like figure appears in Myanmar? Probably not have to wait a long time. Anyways, Mynamar is starting to get its dose of standard gora clique. Start off with a minority that has grievance. So many pressure points to activate at will.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/13/opini ... ngyas.html
But the world should be putting its spotlight on Myanmar. It should not so eagerly welcome democracy in a country that leaves thousands of stateless men and women floating in a river, their corpses washing up on its shores, after they have been reviled in, and driven from, a land in which their families have lived for centuries.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Jul 2012 21:46

Prasanna wrote:Hindu Manners, Customs and Ceremonies by Abbe J.A. Dubois, available at http://www.homeshop18.com/hindu-manners ... cid:13294/


Thanks. Available for download here.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby PratikDas » 16 Jul 2012 01:41

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Prasanna wrote:Hindu Manners, Customs and Ceremonies by Abbe J.A. Dubois, available at http://www.homeshop18.com/hindu-manners ... cid:13294/


Thanks. Available for download here.


Image

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby AbhiJ » 16 Jul 2012 18:22

The Chairman of Nepal Communist Party-Maoist, Mohan Baidya Kiran Pokharel is heading towards China, today July 15, 2012, at the invitation of ruling Communist Party of China.


During the meetings with high ranking Chinese leaders, talks will mainly focus on further enhancing ties between the two countries and deepening ties between the two communist parties.


Nepal: Maoists Chief Baidya heading towards Beijing

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Jul 2012 18:27

SamG wrote:US pushing India to hike cancer drug price
http://india.nydailynews.com/newsarticl ... drug-price

Bayer, which earned $3.4 billion last year, was charging over $5,000 a month for standard doses, according to Indian government data cited by the Post. The cost of a generic version: $157 a month.



I think the effort by aamir khan to bringforth the issue of generic drugs in India might have an impact on this?


Americans showing thier love to India's poor through this?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 16 Jul 2012 18:45

JwalaMukhi wrote:Prachanda of Nepal is a classic example. Commie being in close relationship with EJ peddlers.

How long will it be before a Prachanda like figure appears in Myanmar? Probably not have to wait a long time. Anyways, Mynamar is starting to get its dose of standard gora clique. Start off with a minority that has grievance. So many pressure points to activate at will.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/13/opini ... ngyas.html
But the world should be putting its spotlight on Myanmar. It should not so eagerly welcome democracy in a country that leaves thousands of stateless men and women floating in a river, their corpses washing up on its shores, after they have been reviled in, and driven from, a land in which their families have lived for centuries.



Myanmar had a long history of communist movement. Onec an look up the original formation, and its split into the white flag and the red flag factions. Imperialist forces, took up supporting handles behind each of them in the backdrop of the cold war. Britain had very very good connections with one faction, while maintaining an official USA-led front of doing everything to prevent a communist takeover. The birth of the military junta was at the instigation of Brits with US support. However the real financial and trafficking connections remained intact - all the way through from communist China through then Burma - into the IOR and hence to the western hemisphere.

This was part of the alternative [apart from the Shanghai/Hongkong route] British empire days east-west drug trafficking empire that was one of the pillars of the British foundational strength, apart from the slave trade.

Even in the heydays of the junta-west confrontation, one can search for the Brit connection, and most favourably so where financial flows and profits are concerned. And of course no EJ ever protested.

[Among the northern insurgents there has been an increasing trend of tactical pretension of converting to EJ fold - perhaps the same process that drove and was used by Prabhakaran etal, to gain resources and support from the west]

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby sudarshan » 17 Jul 2012 23:07

sudarshan wrote:(2) I've been thinking of ways to drive it into the Western psyche, that it is Pakistan which is obsessed with India, that India wouldn't care about the existence or destruction of Pakistan, if it weren't for the issue of state-sponsored terrorism. The obdurate Western psyche of course is convinced that it is all India's fault. Or it could be cognitive dissonance - I really don't care. My idea was to point to the Indian movie industry. Of all the hundreds of thousands of movies that have been created in independent India since 1947, how many of them even mention Pakistan by name? I'd be surprised if the number was more than a handful. This is my evidence to show that psychologically, Pakistan is simply not on the radar screen of the Indian consciousness. This naturally brings up the question of how many Pakistani movies mention India (or the "K" word). So - does anybody here have any stats on this, or any idea of the level of mention of India/Kashmir in Paki movies? Is it a lot higher than the few parts-per-million level of acknowledgment of Pak in Indian movies? If my theory is correct, this would be an intriguing hint into the psyches of the two respective nations (India/Pak).


No thoughts on this q of mine, gurus?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2012 00:01

Sudarshan, You have a thesis and you want others to do your research!

Why not go to imdb and pour thru the early decades of Indian cinema and make a list as a first cut? You will find that its around late 1960s(Upkar with Manoj Kumar) that TSP starts making a presence. The J&K "tribal" invasion never even gets mentioned in all those Kashmir ki Kali type of films.

As for Paki films as a matter of principle I dont watch them.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2012 00:10

Two x-posts in burqa forum....

X-post....
Salman Khurshid’s amateurish & deeply biased play - 'Sons of Babur'

Salman Khurshid’s play - “Sons of Babur - A play in search of India” - is amateurish. A poseur, the play is patronizing, proselytizing and a lopsided genealogical assessment of history.

Deeply biased, it delves into the identity of an “Indian” in modern India through imagery and anecdotal inspiration from lives of Mughal Emperors.

Vague attempts to create harmony between Hindu and Islamic cultures fail. The author loses track, becoming an apologist for Mughals even as history forces him to acknowledge a bigoted Islam’s role. This is coupled with anti-Hindu rhetoric. Thus, while Chittor’s defeat was certain, Akbar “rues” that Rajputanis committed Jauhar.
It is well known that conquered cities saw Golgotha’s, rapes and enslavement.

Attempts to understand Babur and Humayun are biased. In truth they were enterprising migrants using Islam to inspire soldiers, raising the banner of dar-ul-Islam to commit Hindu genocide for personal safety. Guru Nanak’s scathing assessment of Babur’s atrocities is known.

Akbar’s military compulsions called upon consolidating shaky gains politically. He found a willing ally in opportunist Man Singh; the latter tempted by loots from conquests and Mughal weaponry.

Akbar’s expansionism did not stop in lieu of his new found tolerance or as “Khurshid’s Akbar” claims that hunting was, “tugging at our conscience”. Akbar was no Emperor Ashoka.

The author errs in denying Maharana Pratap’s battle against Akbar was not religious. Mughal atrocities, cloaked as Jihad, were known to the defiant Maharana. In fact he was encouraged by Prithviraj Rathod from within Akbar’s court! The Maharana also approached Saint Tulsidas to prevail upon Man Singh from harassing a fellow Hindu.

The author proudly admits Mughal bias against Muslim Princess’ marrying Hindus. However, he makes no attempt to analyze the trauma ordinary citizens experienced due to Mughal policies. He generalizes the sporadic joint revolts against Mughals as examples of Hindu-Muslim camaraderie forgetting the horrible atrocities and conversion of Hindus!

He centers simplistic arguments on the emergence of a modern Indian identity when Zafar was proclaimed India’s Emperor in the Revolt of 1857; eulogizing Zafar when masses’ suffering reached its nadir! The debauchery of the elite is well captured by Munshi Premchand in his story “Shatranj ke Khiladi”. The author questions why no Maratha or Sikh filled in. He forgets that these warriors had brief years and meager resources with which they had chipped away at the terrible dynasty.

He forgets that “Indianness”, exists as “Bharat” from Emperor Bharat’s times and his descendants like Rama, whose rule inspired the household term “Ramrajya”, references to which are found in South Asia; or during Chandragupta Maurya’s Dynasty that successfully repelled the Greeks.

Unlike the superficial understanding of Monotheism by European/Middle Eastern masses, India absorbed its essence culturally, giving it resilience to absorb diversity and a unique political identity. India is well integrated post - independence, contrary to similarities cited with Europe.

Despite the power vacuum during times when Utopian Idealism reached its pinnacle under Buddhism’s influence, a definite politico-cultural identity prevailed within India before Islam’s advent. These values were revived through Saint Shankara in 8th Century and Bhakti movements that galvanized the entire nation wherefore indigenous leaders emerged.

It is this Indian identity that Indian Muslims have repeatedly denied.

The author’s dilemma is two pronged. On one hand is a resurgent Hindu majority, while on the other a Muslim community that resists Renaissance and acceptance of pre-Mughal influences.


The former is easy to resolve since Hindus increasingly show preference for secularism and good governance, rejecting religious dogmatism. Distrust of polity continues over the latter’s opportunism in using Muslims as vote banks, Partition’s trauma, infiltration, etc.

The play handles challenges facing the Muslim community vaguely even as the same resists attacks from imported Salafism, while desperately needing to look within and deal with its Indian heritage. He concedes that Muslims need to accept that modern laws have outpaced manmade Sharia and that Muslims are yet to come to terms with the fact that their rule over Hindus is over.

Khurshid repeatedly invokes Sufism to legitimize Islam’s mystical aspect but forgets that the hordes that invaded India did not come here as philosophers, rather with swords to run their writ. They were bigoted medieval barbarians, attempting to assimilate a people far beyond their sensibilities. Moreover, all Indian Muslims are not Sufi.

Immigrant Americans apologize to Native Americans; Germans for the wars; Modern India denounces casteism, yet we do not see any such bold introspection in this play.

The protagonist’s defense of democracy is a moral sham; the play being dedicated to the political toy, Sonia Gandhi!



and

unarayanadas wrote:In The Sense Of A Community Christophe Jaffrelot makes some interesting points:

Indian Muslims entertain a peculiar relation to cities. Historically, many of the subcontinent’s cities—when they have not been colonial creations (like Bombay or Calcutta)—have a Muslim origin, as their names often suggest: Lucknow, Ahmedabad, Hyderabad, Agra, Aligarh, Ahmednagar, Aurangabad, Allahabad, Bhopal...the list is long. [...] But it also stems from the larger political role bequeathed to Muslims after they came to power in India in the medieval period and beyond. As rulers, they had to live in the power centre that was the city. [...] While the emperors stayed in Delhi or Agra, the nawabs, nizams and begums established smaller cities that are, today, often state capitals. Along with the rulers came the service gentry and the artisans who worked for the kings and their courtiers—three groups among whom Muslims were over-represented.
[...]
Simultaneously, the Hindus who used to live here have left and those who live in the neighbouring localities have built walls.
[...]
The combination of spatial concentration and socio-economic decline has resulted in the making of specific kinds of “Muslim constituencies” in many Indian cities. In the old cities of erstwhile princely state capitals, where Muslims represent a large share of the voters—Hyderabad, Bhopal, Lucknow—local parties (the mim in Hyderabad, for instance) and the Congress indulge in emotional politics without paying much attention to the effective upliftment of the Muslims. They project themselves as the defenders of the waqf properties more than they promote education. That way, the local voters are bound to remain in the need of local saviours. The Congress and the mim are very good at playing this brand of clientelism which makes the ghettoised Muslims victims...of other Muslims!

Similarly, ghettoised Muslims are not victims but actors when the making of Muslim enclaves is due to their quest of cultural homogeneity. Lower-middle-class neighbourhoods—like in Zakir Nagar in Delhi—sometimes develop along these lines. They do not result only from discrimination, but also from self-segregation on the part of families eager to offer to their children an atmosphere free from Hindu influences likely to “corrupt” them.
[...]
The paradoxical, positive impact of ghettoisation suggests that the real victims among the Muslims are not those who live in ghettoes, but those who live in slums within cities where the Muslim middle class can afford not to go to the ghetto, like in Mumbai and Aligarh. In Mumbai, the Muslim middle class has been shaken by the riots of 1992-93 and is affected by discrimination, but is more resilient than its Ahmedabadi cousin. As a result, there are more Muslim slums—like Shivaji Nagar—than Muslim ghettoes. In Aligarh, the Muslim university professors (and employees) represent such a critical mass that they form an enclave by themselves and do not mix (not even interact!) with the inhabitants of the Muslim slums (including Shah Jamal).

In addition to these socio-economic divisions along lines of caste and class, there are other factors of fragmentation within the Muslims. In Lucknow, Shias and Sunnis are locked in historical rivalries—which have to do with unequal access to power and economic resources again, and this fracture translates in the making of additional forms of spatial self-segregation. In Gujarat, a similar sectarian cleavage has resulted in the insulation of the Bohras from the other Muslims. In fact, the Bohras—trading communities who converted lately from Hinduism—do not wish to share the pain of the Sunnis and sometimes even do not give “Islam” as their religion to the census enumerators. Some of the leaders of the community have decided to make peace with Narendra Modi and are as close to the BJP as many Shias of Lucknow.
[...]
There is much at stake there. Most of SIMI’s cadre—including the few, radical ones who created, apparently, the Indian Mujahideen—were educated Muslims. To alienate those who invested in education in order to be part of the brighter part of urban India may result in the making of “reluctant fundamentalists”, to use the title of a recent book.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 18 Jul 2012 01:07

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/world ... ml?_r=1&hp
In Tiny Bean, India’s Dirt-Poor Farmers Strike Gas-Drilling Gold

LORDI, India — Sohan Singh’s shoeless children have spent most of their lives hungry, dirty and hot. A farmer in a desert land, Mr. Singh could not afford anything better than a mud hut and a barely adequate diet for his family. But it just so happens that when the hard little bean that Mr. Singh grows is ground up, it becomes an essential ingredient for mining oil and natural gas in a process called hydraulic fracturing. Halfway around the world, earnings are down for an oil services giant, Halliburton, because prices have risen for guar, the bean that Mr. Singh and his fellow farmers raise
Halliburton’s loss was, in a rather significant way, Mr. Singh’s gain — a rare victory for the littlest of the little guys in global trade. The increase in guar prices is helping to transform this part of the state of Rajasthan in northwestern India, one of the world’s poorest places. Tractor sales are soaring, land prices are increasing and weddings have grown even more colorful. “Now we have enough food, and we have a house made of stone,” Mr. Singh said proudly while his rail-thin children stared in awe. Guar, a modest bean so hard that it can crack teeth, has become an unlikely global player, and dirt-poor farmers like Mr. Singh have suddenly become a crucial link in the energy production of the United States.
For centuries, farmers here used guar to feed their families and their cattle. There are better sources of nutrition, but few that grow in the Rajasthani desert, a land rich in culture but poor in rain. Broader commercial interest in guar first developed when food companies found that it absorbs water like a souped-up cornstarch, and a powdered form of the bean is now widely used to thicken ice cream and keep pastries crisp. But much more important to farmers here was the recent discovery that guar could stiffen water so much that a mixture is able to carry sand sideways into wells drilled by horizontal fracturing, also known as fracking.Without guar, you cannot have fracturing fluids,” said Michael J. Economides, a professor of engineering at the University of Houston who is a fracking expert. “And what everybody is worried about is that there is virtually no guar out there now.” India produces about 85 percent of the world’s guar. As worries rose about the prospects for this year’s monsoon, which is vital for an adequate crop, speculation over guar production built to a frenzy. Trading in guar futures was even suspended, and with the monsoon still behind schedule, it remains postponed. Ramesh Abhishek, India’s chief commodities market regulator, said guar trading would resume when supplies proved adequate. “If the physical market doesn’t provide enough supplies, then the futures market causes more harm than good,” Mr. Abhishek said. Now, an international effort is under way to ensure that guar supplies come closer to meeting the soaring demand, and hundreds of thousands of small farmers here have been recruited in the effort. Leading the way is Vikas WSP, an Indian company that specializes in the production of guar powders.
Many farmers sold their seed stock last year when prices shot up, so Vikas has held rallies in small towns to pass out free seeds, including new high-production hybrids. The company persuaded farmers with irrigated land in the state of Punjab, north of Rajasthan, to plant guar in the spring instead of cotton. That crop is now coming to market. nd Vikas signed contracts with farmers guaranteeing a return of nearly $800 per acre if they planted guar, no matter what this year’s monsoon brought. “Whatever they produce, we will buy,” said Sanjay Pareek, a Vikas vice president.
Anticipating a heavy crop, Vikas is more than doubling its processing capacity by building two new plants in Jodhpur, the second-largest city in Rajasthan. By next year, the company will be able to produce 86,400

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby krithivas » 18 Jul 2012 01:08

The Urinator (Moothrakumar) speaks again -
http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2012/07/17/what-happens-to-krishna-doctrine/
The US will never allow its military personnel to be tried in India. If there is any doubt, ask Afghan President Hamid Karzai.
So, what do we do now? The decent thing will be to let the Italian navy personnel go home, too.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 18 Jul 2012 01:11

Ik Yindoo smart hamara, banaya Shoe issne nyara, Nyarrah Nyarrah Nyarrah

How a Shoe Lets the Blind See With Their Feet
new shoe, dubbed "Le Chal," allows the blind to let their feet lead the way, in yet another way smartphone technology is helping them "see" where to go.Invented by 24-year-old Anirudh Sharma of India, Le Chal, or "take me along" in Hindi, uses sensors sewn into the sole to feed data to a smartphone connected through Bluetooth.The user tells his smartphone his destination, using voice recognition software, and the app finds a local map of the area. It also uses the phone's global programming system to track the person's location.The app then sends, through Bluetooth, signals that tell the wearer's shoe the direction, causing it to vibrate when it's time for the wearer to turn toward their intended destination, with the side of the foot where the vibration is felt indicating which way to go. The shoe also uses sonar to bounce ultrasounds off obstacles, alerting the wearer of any obstruction and guiding him around it.Sharma said he chose the vibration, rather than sound, because audio feedback can distract blind people. The app doesn't need constant Internet access, because downloaded maps are stored on the smartphone and combined with GPS.Maps are gathered using Open Street Maps, not Google Maps, which allows it to be used on all smartphones. So when Apple's new iPhone 5 comes out this fall, the maps will still be compatible, and also, unlike Google Maps, OSM allows the maps to be edited, unlike Google Maps.One big problem with the device is that it can't yet differentiate between dangers, leaving a very real possibility the wearer could walk into an open manhole that he can't tell from a street curb. Further, it's not yet able to deal with moving obstacles, like cars, but the developers are working on ways to alert wearers to cars and their speed.The new Bluetooth app joins similar creations that may help blind people "see" by gathering data through sophisticated sensors and translating that information in a useful and easy-to-understand manner.Several haptic-capable tablet programs are especially useful as hands-on devices to guide those without sight through complicated drawings and graphs, using touch or other sensations to translate information on a blind person's surroundings.One of these devices, a touchscreen app created by California-based Tactus Technology, lets users feel haptic feedback-enhanced tablet keyboards as they type, making it easier for blind people to write documents on mobile devices.
Another gadget, a stand-alone headset called EyeMusic may help blind people "see" colors and shapes through sound. The headset's glasses include a built-in webcam and headphones, to help the visually impaired identify objects through real-time digital camerawork and pre-set soundscapes. Colors, shapes and other visual properties are translated into sound, helping users gain a sense of their physical environment through senses other than sight.The Bluetooth shoes, however, are different from many other apps on the market, because instead of keeping them isolated -- as a mobile tablet app can do if it keeps the user at home -- the shoe app, if perfected, may help those without sight to regain a measure of independence by allowing to move more freely oustide the home environment in public places

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby sudarshan » 18 Jul 2012 01:23

ramana wrote:Sudarshan, You have a thesis and you want others to do your research!

Why not go to imdb and pour thru the early decades of Indian cinema and make a list as a first cut? You will find that its around late 1960s(Upkar with Manoj Kumar) that TSP starts making a presence. The J&K "tribal" invasion never even gets mentioned in all those Kashmir ki Kali type of films.

As for Paki films as a matter of principle I dont watch them.


My question was specifically about Paki movies. I've already come to my own conclusions about Indian cinema, which is, that their level of interest in Pak is at the parts-per-million level. My thinking was, *is this evidence acceptable to show that India is not obsessed with Pak?* Given that Pak is obsessed with India, *does it show in PAKI movies?*

I've already done my own version of "poring through Indian cinema" and come to my own conclusions (which is, that Indian cinema's level of interest in PAK is at the parts-per-million level), which I even stated in my post. Thanks for the pointers about Upkar/Kashmir ki Kali type films, but that was simply not my question.

You don't watch Paki movies, fine. I don't either. That was my specific q - has anybody watched PAKI movies, and if so, would they care to comment? Lacking pointers from here, full-fledged lit survey is next on *MY* agenda (not outsourced to anybody else, like you seem to be accusing). If that means delving into the disturbingly mystic world of Paki movies, then so be it.

My second post on the subject was a "last call." The speed at which pages in these threads get buried is astounding, so a couple of days is the most that any post will have visibility on these forums. I was basically expecting a couple of people here to tell me - "we have no clue, you're on your own." And I got that now.

It seems most posters here are like me - zero exposure to Paki movies. It was worth a try, though.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 19 Jul 2012 01:34

http://reason.com/archives/2012/07/17/the
Why India Can't Catch Up With the West
Shikha Dalmia
(India's legions of petty bureaucrats are killing the country's economy.)
London—A deep gloom has settled in here: Europe’s glory days, it’s feared, are over. Private bank excesses and public-sector legacy costs are poised to drag the continent—and America—down for generations. Only India and China are seen as the rising stars in the global firmament. Their young economies have stalled this year. But they are expected to recover, learn from the West’s mistakes and become economic powerhouses, displacing the West’s global hegemony.Setting China and its opaque autocracy aside, India, I am quite confident, ain’t going to perch its tricolored flag atop the globe anytime soon. Not until it does something about its soul-sapping bureaucracy. The world’s largest democracy doesn’t have rule of law—it has the rule of babus, the local term for petty bureaucrats. And so long as they keep challenging India’s entrepreneurs, there isn’t much chance that India will challenge the West.In other words, a routine matter that shouldn’t have taken more than 10 minutes swallowed 30 hours of our lives. Yet, by Indian standards, ours was a happy ending. Episodes even more Kafka-esque than ours are replayed daily across the country. We had time, resources and the savvy to devote to a matter that, ultimately, didn’t have existential stakes for us. But what about, say, a poor rickshaw driver who needs a license to earn his meager income? Or a farmer who needs the title to his land (something that can take 240 to 400 days in some parts of the country)?
Western bureaucracies are inefficient, but get things done. Indian bureaucracy is orders of magnitude worse and gets nothing done—unless you count harassing people—which is why it is ranked the worst in Asia. And literally every world survey rates India among the very bottom in ease of doing business. The World Bank puts India virtually last among 183 countries in enforcement of contracts.This is all thanks to the immense discretionary powers that India’s irrational rules hand to bureaucrats. Until that changes, fears that the sun is setting on the West are premature, to say the least.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 19 Jul 2012 02:32

^^So, bureaucrats are frustrating a lot of interests eh! These bureaucrats and their system developed in solid continuity and patronage from British rule. Then they were alright because they served foreign biz interests well. Now they are an obstacle and have become too costly for external tastes.

So we see one of the factors that gives rise to the need for change of regimes, "reforms", more openness, etc in other countries.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Paul » 19 Jul 2012 02:35

It seems most posters here are like me - zero exposure to Paki movies. It was worth a try, though.



One should not preclude themselves from watching and observing pakistani movies which provide a window into their psyche. I have watched pakistani movies on youtube, their serials as well. Ramana's comments on Pakistani cooking videos on youtube which help us analyze their thinking would apply to pakistani movies to some extent as well.

Their actor Shaan fancies himself as a Paki Sunny Deol. Came to Mumbai to explore the Indian scene as well many years ago...had to make a quick about turn due to the competition.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2012 02:40

You remember my comments on the Paki cooking channels!

Both motorhams in western dress and traditional dress say inordinate number of mashallah and bake cakes!!!

When they make native foods its take an Indian recipe and give it a paki name.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 19 Jul 2012 03:04

Paul wrote:
It seems most posters here are like me - zero exposure to Paki movies. It was worth a try, though.



One should not preclude themselves from watching and observing pakistani movies which provide a window into their psyche. I have watched pakistani movies on youtube, their serials as well. Ramana's comments on Pakistani cooking videos on youtube which help us analyze their thinking would apply to pakistani movies to some extent as well.

Their actor Shaan fancies himself as a Paki Sunny Deol. Came to Mumbai to explore the Indian scene as well many years ago...had to make a quick about turn due to the competition.


But it would seem from movies onlee that just like Bollywood, their life revolves around mohabbat [not pyaar]. Bollywood tries to mix in some "reality" like underworld - but otherwise, it is a surfeit of pyaar with massala.

How do folks propose that we gain insight into Paki reality/psyche from this?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 19 Jul 2012 03:13

Bsir ji,
Babbus are pain in the Mush most of time but they also serve a good purpose necessary for the internal stability. I have personally seen and met few very good nationalistic and honest Babbus. Last one i met at a party had mucho knowledge about EJs and thier shenanigans than with due exceptions,most of the good old Brites here. On top it, he was young and lets say in the "proper" department. Vayuvan Enron-assur was vanquished by a Babbu when every one was so impressed of Its high reach.


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