INS Vikrant News and Discussion

[Nikhil T]

Nikhil T wrote:
We should track the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier - I (INS Vikrant) more closely in a separate thread

Please start one.

This thread is for focussed discussion of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier - I and the INS Vikrant class in general.

HERE COMES THE IAC | Navy beefs up security at Wellingdon Island with IAC float-out | Round-the-clock surveillance for INS Dronacharaya soon

[steve]

Very nice pics.

Thanks.

[tushar_m]

beauty of this sea beast will be reveled when the takeoff silde will be installed

[rajeshks]

Saw the ship this weekend.. and so i dont understand the claims on security part..

[Nikhil T]

Navy needs more Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups

Article in Indian Defence Review.

[Philip]

Which is why I say that our LHPDs should be as large/similar to the Juan Carlos type so that they can "swing" roles for crises in the IOR ,leaving the larger carriers for full blue water ops,supported by SSGNs, outside the IOR too.Much as one would like,we can't afford to build and maintain-something that is conveniently forgotten,5 carriers plus 4+ LHPDs and a large fleet of N-subs too.However,IAC-2 must be a larger carrier,65,000t+ to be truly capable of projecting power and supporting any amphib ops with effective air support.

[rajrang]

Navy needs more Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups

Article in Indian Defence Review.

With respect to aircraft carriers, India has to plan for 2050. From a financial standpoint, if India's economy grows at 6% per annum, then the Indian GNP (PPP) in 2050 will be twice that of the US of today! Certainly India can easily AFFORD a handful of carriers of the Vikrant class by then. Most certainly India will also NEED a handful of carriers by then, assuming that a country's defense responsibilities are proportional to the size of the economy, in order to protect that commerce.

So, if India can build a new 60K to 90K carrier every 7 years then, over the 40 year lifespan of each ship, India would have a half a dozen carriers of the Vikrant class by 2050. The production facilities in Cochin can be kept going continuously. At any time at least 4 should be available assuming that one is under re-fit and another preparing for the same. Perhaps beyond IAC-3 the ships can be nuclear powered.

At a minimum, IN will be able to dissuade TSP from overtly joining China, in the event of an India-China confrontation. (Think of a debilitating naval blockade. High speed transportation links across the Karakorums will not completely offset that.) Without a powerful navy, the probability of India facing a two front war will be higher.

[SaiK]

nuke powered a/cs are the way to go.

[chackojoseph]

Italian radars for India's new aircraft carrier INS Vikrant

[Singha]

any idea what will be the SAM fit on the Vikrant - ak630 + barak1 + barak8 (would need MF-star)?

[Austin]

RAN-40L is an excellent Long Range Radar so good news for Vikrant , they already have it on Italian carrier Cavour

Vikrant AD would be E/L-2048 AESA Radar , Barak-8 LR-SAM ,Barak-1/AK-630M CIWS

[Austin]

Here is some details on RAN-40L Radar

http://www.selex-si.com/IT/Common/files ... AN_40L.pdf

[Singha]

I hope our future LHDs are equipped with 2 x Oto127mm with those very long range 'vulcano' shells ... could be useful to cheaply pound shore targets from a fleet offshore. if colonial war/policing/anti piracy in IOR is their role, a cheap weapon with lots of refire is good to have vs all-or-nothing solns like SLCMs.

[SNaik]

RAN-40L is an excellent Long Range Radar so good news for Vikrant , they already have it on Italian carrier Cavour

Vikrant AD would be E/L-2048 AESA Radar , Barak-8 LR-SAM ,Barak-1/AK-630M CIWS

Why do you need area defense SAM on a carrier? It's no going to sail solo, so there will be at least couple of escorts with Barak8 and Shtil.

[Austin]

Why do you need area defense SAM on a carrier? It's no going to sail solo, so there will be at least couple of escorts with Barak8 and Shtil.

It certainly wont sail alone but it wont do any harm either considering they would have E/L 2048 as MFR and Barak-8 comes natural to it , will give it a self defence capability of its own beyond CIWS, after all Soviets deployed the Shipwreck anti-ship missile on so called air capable cruiser.

[SNaik]

Why do you need area defense SAM on a carrier? It's no going to sail solo, so there will be at least couple of escorts with Barak8 and Shtil.

It certainly wont sail alone but it wont do any harm either considering they would have E/L 2048 as MFR and Barak-8 comes natural to it , will give it a self defence capability of its own beyond CIWS, after all Soviets deployed the Shipwreck anti-ship missile on so called air capable cruiser.

Depends what you are building, Austin, a carrier or a cruiser

[Singha]

well even its sister ship Cavour carries the Aster15 . the CVF carriers will likely take Aster15 and a shorter range weapon too like maybe vl-mica/ESSM. we are not advocating taking away hanger space with a VL-array of AAD sized missiles but a competent self defence capability is always good to have...esp if we do not have a surplus of DDGs unlike khan.

in ravi rikheye's 1984 indo-pak war book, the Vikrant decoys the Paki sea search radar by turning away alone out of its task force and moving north, looking on radar returns like a large merchant ship. arriving off the Makran coast unhindered it then launches a couple days of Sea harrier attacks on coastal shipping and shooting up truck convoys on the coastal highway great stuff that.

the Kuznetsov ofcourse is off the charts with 196 SAMs (the most of any surface ship on the earth) and those Granit silos....now if only it could carry 36 MKIs we'd have a real carrier!

[SNaik]

Aster15 is a self-defense missile at 30km (like ESSM or Russian 9M96), while Aster30 is the longer range companion at 120km. Barak 8 is kind of in-between and positioned to be more of Aster30 than Aster15, also dimensionwise. Therefore I seriously doubt the rationale in using it for self-defense on a carrier.

[srai]

Navy needs more Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups

Article in Indian Defence Review.

With respect to aircraft carriers, India has to plan for 2050. From a financial standpoint, if India's economy grows at 6% per annum, then the Indian GNP (PPP) in 2050 will be twice that of the US of today! Certainly India can easily AFFORD a handful of carriers of the Vikrant class by then. Most certainly India will also NEED a handful of carriers by then, assuming that a country's defense responsibilities are proportional to the size of the economy, in order to protect that commerce.

So, if India can build a new 60K to 90K carrier every 7 years then, over the 40 year lifespan of each ship, India would have a half a dozen carriers of the Vikrant class by 2050. The production facilities in Cochin can be kept going continuously. At any time at least 4 should be available assuming that one is under re-fit and another preparing for the same. Perhaps beyond IAC-3 the ships can be nuclear powered.

At a minimum, IN will be able to dissuade TSP from overtly joining China, in the event of an India-China confrontation. (Think of a debilitating naval blockade. High speed transportation links across the Karakorums will not completely offset that.) Without a powerful navy, the probability of India facing a two front war will be higher.

Cross posting from "China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011" thread:

How China is advancing its military reach

...
It is thought that China plans to build three aircraft carrier battle groups, each armed with 40 fighters, up to eight warships, three nuclear-powered attack submarines and a number of support vessels. The PLA Navy's retrofitted Varyag carrier, currently under sea-trials, will serve as a training platform.
...

The 3 PLAN carrier battle groups totals out to the following:

• 3 x Aircraft Carriers + 1 x training/reserve carrier
• 120 x Fighters
• 24 x FFG/DDG
• 9 x SSN
• ?? x Support Ships (at the minimum 3 to 6 x Large Fleet Tankers)

Comparing the above with the IN's projected CGBs, it will be the following by 2020/25:

• 3 x Aircraft Carriers (1 x Gorshkov, 2 x IAC-1/2)
• 90 x Fighters (45 x MiG-29K, 45? x NLCA)
• 26 x FFG/DDG (6 x Kirvak, 10 x P-17/A, 10 x P-15/A/B)
• 5 x SSN/SSBN (ATV 1/2/3/4/5) + 12 x SSK (6 x P-75, 6 x P-75A)
• 4 x Support Ships (Large Fleet Tankers)

In terms of CBGs in the 2025 timeframe, there looks to be a parity between PLAN and IN.

[koti]

Saab,
I think the 24 FFG/DDG of PLAN are part of the CBG's alone.

Where Our 26 ships are not intended for that role alone.

[chackojoseph]

Italian radars for India's new aircraft carrier INS Vikrant

I recd a reply from the company. the information has been added on the scope and the time of delivery.

[arun]

Selex Sistemi Integrati press release on the supply of the RAN 40L and an IFF radar for the IAC:

Roma, 16th January 2012

SELEX Sistemi Integrati signs news contracts in India and Ukraine

SELEX Sistemi Integrati, a Finmeccanica company, recently signed two contracts for a total value of 10 million euros with the Indian shipyard Coching Shipyard Ltd and with the Ukrainian air service provider UkSATSE (Ukrainian State Air Traffic Service Enterprise).

Through the purchase order issued by the Indian Coching Shipyard Ltd. SELEX Sistemi Integrati will deliver an air surveillance naval radar RAN 40L and an IFF radar which will equip the new Indian aircraftcarrier under realization for the Indian Military Navy.

The RAN-40L is a 3D long range early warning radar with fully solid state active phased array antenna able to assure the detection of aircrafts up to 400 kilometers.

The philosophy of the radar design has been intensively proven on the land based 3D RAT-31DL, the most long range surveillance radar ever provided worldwide to the NATO Countries.

SELEX Sistemi Integrati has been in India since 1972 with its own radar systems.

In the naval field, the Finmeccanica company supplied three command and control systems in 1984 for the Godivari and Bramaputra class frigates, besides the relevant logistic support. More recently, following this long standing relationship, SELEX Sistemi Integrati also realized radars and systems for air traffic control to be set up in the airports of Bangalore and Hyderabad.

The company is also providing the Indian Navy and Air Force with the PAR2080C system, a Precision Approach Radar. ………………..

Selex Press Release

[rajrang]

With respect to aircraft carriers, India has to plan for 2050. From a financial standpoint, if India's economy grows at 6% per annum, then the Indian GNP (PPP) in 2050 will be twice that of the US of today! Certainly India can easily AFFORD a handful of carriers of the Vikrant class by then. Most certainly India will also NEED a handful of carriers by then, assuming that a country's defense responsibilities are proportional to the size of the economy, in order to protect that commerce.

So, if India can build a new 60K to 90K carrier every 7 years then, over the 40 year lifespan of each ship, India would have a half a dozen carriers of the Vikrant class by 2050. The production facilities in Cochin can be kept going continuously. At any time at least 4 should be available assuming that one is under re-fit and another preparing for the same. Perhaps beyond IAC-3 the ships can be nuclear powered.

At a minimum, IN will be able to dissuade TSP from overtly joining China, in the event of an India-China confrontation. (Think of a debilitating naval blockade. High speed transportation links across the Karakorums will not completely offset that.) Without a powerful navy, the probability of India facing a two front war will be higher.

Cross posting from "China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011" thread:

How China is advancing its military reach

...
It is thought that China plans to build three aircraft carrier battle groups, each armed with 40 fighters, up to eight warships, three nuclear-powered attack submarines and a number of support vessels. The PLA Navy's retrofitted Varyag carrier, currently under sea-trials, will serve as a training platform.
..

The 3 PLAN carrier battle groups totals out to the following:

• 3 x Aircraft Carriers + 1 x training/reserve carrier
• 120 x Fighters
• 24 x FFG/DDG
• 9 x SSN
• ?? x Support Ships (at the minimum 3 to 6 x Large Fleet Tankers)

Comparing the above with the IN's projected CGBs, it will be the following by 2020/25:

• 3 x Aircraft Carriers (1 x Gorshkov, 2 x IAC-1/2)
• 90 x Fighters (45 x MiG-29K, 45? x NLCA)
• 26 x FFG/DDG (6 x Kirvak, 10 x P-17/A, 10 x P-15/A/B)
• 5 x SSN/SSBN (ATV 1/2/3/4/5) + 12 x SSK (6 x P-75, 6 x P-75A)
• 4 x Support Ships (Large Fleet Tankers)

In terms of CBGs in the 2025 timeframe, there looks to be a parity between PLAN and IN.

Beyond 1025 it is anyone's guess how fast PRC will start building aircraft carriers. Looking at the way they out-manufacture every other country in the world (their steel production is now equal to the rest of world combined), and their technological prowess (they have sent a man into space) can one assume that they will not do the same with aircraft carriers? For 2050 India has to start planning now, not in 2025, to take on the PRC Navy in the Indian Ocean at least.

[Nikhil T]

X-post worth archiving

New INS Vikrant - April 2012 pics:

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/4590 ... geview.jpg

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/5245 ... 55356f.jpg

[Nikhil T]

India’s aircraft carrier ambitions take a dive: IAC Vikrant delayed by 3 years

NEW DELHI: Just when the US is seeking to "rebalance'' 60% of its formidable naval fleet towards the Asia-Pacific region, and China steams ahead to commission its first aircraft carrier this year, India's long-standing aim to operate two full-blown carrier battle groups (CBGs) by 2015 has taken a huge hit.

Construction schedule of the 40,000-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard in defence minister AK Antony's home state, has "slipped another three years'' behind the already-revised timelines.

"The fact is IAC will not be ready anytime before 2017. In a recent high-level meeting, the Cochin Shipyard was sharply pulled up for this huge delay,'' said a defence ministry source.

The barely one-third finished IAC, to be christened INS Vikrant after the country's first carrier decommissioned in 1997, currently stands forlornly next to the bridge connecting Cochin Shipyard to the naval base there.

"IAC, whose keel was laid in February 2009, was to be 'launched' with a weight of around 25,000 tonnes by October 2010. But that is yet to happen. Prematurely floated out of the dry dock last December due to delays in gear boxes and other systems, IAC is just about 14,000 tonnes at present,'' he said.

The first contract for IAC till its "launch'', sanctioned in 2002-2003, was pegged at Rs 3,261 crore. But there has been a huge cost escalation since then, with the second contract from "launch to completion'' yet to be even inked.

This effectively torpedoes Navy's plan to have two potent CBGs by 2015. CBGs or carrier strike groups, capable of travelling 600 nautical miles a day with accompanying destroyers, frigates, submarines, tankers, fighters and other aircraft, project raw offensive power like nothing else around the globe.

As per plans, India's first CBG is to be centered on the 44,570-tonne INS Vikramaditya, or the refitted Admiral Gorshkov, which will be inducted by early-2013 under the revised $2.33 billion deal inked with Russia.

The second CBG was to revolve around the IAC. But Navy will now have to further stretch the operational life of its present solitary carrier, the 28,000-tonne INS Viraat, beyond 2014. Already over 50 years old, Viraat is also relatively toothless with just 11 Sea Harrier jump-jets left to operate from its deck. The 45 MiG-29K naval fighters, being procured from Russia for $2 billion, can operate only from Vikramaditya and IAC.

All this when US is going to deploy at least six of its 11 CBGs - each carrier is over 94,000 tonnes and can operate 80-90 fighters -- in the Asia-Pacific region. China, too, is moving fast ahead, holding aircraft carriers are "symbols of a great nation''.

China will take a few years to master CBG operations after it commissions its first carrier, the 67,500-tonne Varyag, undergoing sea trials at present. But it has an ongoing robust programme to build "multiple carriers'' in the decade ahead.

India also has a 65,000-tonne IAC-II on the drawing board but the delay in IAC-I has derailed it. The 260-metre-long IAC-I is supposed to carry 12 MiG-29Ks, eight Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and 10 anti-submarine and reconnaissance helicopters on its 2.5-acre flight deck and hangars.

With a crew of 160 officers and 1,400 sailors, IAC will have an endurance of around 7,500 nautical miles at 18 knots, powered by four American LM2500 gas turbines. It will be capable of a maximum speed of 28 knots.

[shiv]

Well the Vikrant is going to fly with the NLCA. Any delays will give the NLCA time to catch up. Last Aero India there was a fear expressed that the Vikrant would be ready long before the NLCA. The latter will have to have be proven and have weight shaved or re engined. Three years is too short a time and I bet the three year delay won't be the last. OT for this thread but I would be happy to see the Air Force Tejas in squadron service in 3 years.

BTW what dates have the Chinese announced for induction into service of their aircraft carrier and the J-20?

[member_23360]

Shipyards should start following modular approach, projects should be assigned to multiple shipyards. IAC is first of its kind for Indian Shipyard so delays are obvious but still we can cut down the delays by modular approach, in parallel work for IAC 2 should be started asap.

read somewhere about MDL collaborating with four private players, this must be encouraged for speedy execution.

[Pratyush]

^^^

The IAC is one of the first Indian warships to follow, a modular construction approach. The trouble, it seems is coming from the power plant and the gearbox of the ship. The power plant is LM 2500. It must be remembered that the Shivalik also suffered delays on account of the power plant which was LM 2500.

[Austin]

Well the Vikrant is going to fly with the NLCA

Vikrant will fly both the Mig-29K and NLCA and so with Vikramaditya

BTW what dates have the Chinese announced for induction into service of their aircraft carrier and the J-20?

J-20 by 2018 for PLAAF

[shiv]

J-20 by 2018 for PLAAF

Thanks. Do you have a cite for this? I want to archive it and compare with reality after 2018. Sorry OT

[Austin]

J-20 by 2018 for PLAAF

Thanks. Do you have a cite for this? I want to archive it and compare with reality after 2018. Sorry OT

Chengdu J-20 could enter service by 2018

[Philip]

What is holding up the Chinese is their dependence upon Soviet/Russian engine types and they are making according to western sources,unlike India, a most concerted effort to produce a whole range of modern aero-engines for their current and future military aircraft,ending dependence upon foreign engines.The fact that they were able to design and develop in secret on their own,a prototype of their 5th-gen steath fighter is very laudable.In many areas,they are now virtually self-dependent,especially in missiles.Their space programme is a huge success,with theb first manned flight,moon missions and a future Chinese space station on the anvil. The Chinese military machine moves relentlessly like solldier ants,not stopping after milestones are reached.

[Victor]

The NLCA has little chance of making it as a carrier fighter due to its limited punch versus the Mig 29k or Rafale M. Very likely, the IN will choose the latter as its standard shipboard fighter for the foreseeable future and keep a couple of NLCA sqdns on the ground. That would be one less unknown in the continuing tragicomedy.

First they ran out of ship grade steel and had to wait for indigenous supply. Then the gearbox needed German redesign. Then the shafts were misaligned. Then the engines were delayed. Finally the ship was kicked out of the dry dock to make way for a civilian freighter. One wonders at what point will the powers decide to give the vegetarian/bania private shipyards a try. IMO the LAC2 projecl should be shifted to the private sector wholesale, with full financial and R&D backing. It is quite possible that with 24/7 shifts and real management, LAC2 will come out before LAC1.

But then again, the potential loss of face (and of lucrative feifdoms) may not allow such a plan to even be considered, national defence be damned.

[shiv]

Very likely, the IN will choose the latter as its standard shipboard fighter for the foreseeable future and keep a couple of NLCA sqdns on the ground. That would be one less unknown in the continuing tragicomedy.

Put this in the predictions thread and lets wait and see. Everyone is allowed to predict, but no one is praised for being right or called out for being wrong.

[ShauryaT]

I hope our future LHDs are equipped with 2 x Oto127mm with those very long range 'vulcano' shells ... could be useful to cheaply pound shore targets from a fleet offshore. if colonial war/policing/anti piracy in IOR is their role, a cheap weapon with lots of refire is good to have vs all-or-nothing solns like SLCMs.

I agree. For our region these shore shelling is still important and hence I have always wondered, are those old fashioned large WW II guns 16 inch+ in fashion anymore, on destroyers and like.

[John]

I hope our future LHDs are equipped with 2 x Oto127mm with those very long range 'vulcano' shells ... could be useful to cheaply pound shore targets from a fleet offshore. if colonial war/policing/anti piracy in IOR is their role, a cheap weapon with lots of refire is good to have vs all-or-nothing solns like SLCMs.

I agree. For our region these shore shelling is still important and hence I have always wondered, are those old fashioned large WW II guns 16 inch+ in fashion anymore, on destroyers and like.

For anti piracy operations anything more than 56 mm is an overkill you don't want to be blowing those ships out of the water (especially if they are seized vessel or contain hostages). Ak-630 and Kashtan have been quite potent in our current operations. As for land bombardment it is too risky to come 10 km from enemy shore and engage land targets, you need to engage such targets beyond horizon (50 km+) to avoid counter artillery fire and missile batteries.

[NRao]

First they ran out of ship grade steel and had to wait for indigenous supply. Then the gearbox needed German redesign. Then the shafts were misaligned. Then the engines were delayed. Finally the ship was kicked out of the dry dock to make way for a civilian freighter.

These are ALL project management related issues. Nothing to with a yard or a yard taking on a project.

One wonders at what point will the powers decide to give the vegetarian/bania private shipyards a try. IMO the LAC2 projecl should be shifted to the private sector wholesale, with full financial and R&D backing. It is quite possible that with 24/7 shifts and real management, LAC2 will come out before LAC1.

Does not matter. IF the above problems are true and if they will rear their ugly heads the best yard will flop.

A good PM would have factored those issues into the plan. Problems happen all the time, the issue is related to identifying them as far ahead as possible and factoring them in into the plan.

[SaiK]

^^

India also has a 65,000-tonne IAC-II on the drawing board but the delay in IAC-I has derailed it.

Now, if it is all on the drawing board, where is the derailment? I assume derailment should incur loss., and has a monetary value against it.

[karan_mc]

India starts work on second indigenous aircraft carrier

Some good news at the end of the day

[member_22906]

^^

I am a believer and I believe in miracles. But the article only says that the design work has started. Unfortunately, it doesnt mean anything till a firm order is placed and (ofcourse) specs like displacement, weapons systems and radars, sourcing of critical components - right from engines, to gear box, catapults (assuming that is part of the plan) etc. - are finalized