Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 15 Jul 2012 12:11

shiv wrote: Looks like Photoshop to me,

Saar, Here is the source and more collection of splendid RV reentry pics.The photo is taken from US Armed Forces Strategic command official website.

http://www.smdc.army.mil/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jul 2012 12:39

Narad wrote:
shiv wrote: Looks like Photoshop to me,
Saar, Here is the source

Saar your original photo and this discussion are OT for this thread. I was unable to see that pic in your link, but the re-entry photos there do not look photoshopped.

Like this one
http://www.smdc.army.mil/SMDCPhoto_Gall ... tUSAKA.jpg

The lines can be seen to form the curve of an ellipse, not straight (and suspiciously evenly placed) lines like the photoshopped one.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 15 Jul 2012 12:53

Singha wrote:looking at the very high angle of reentry almost 90' this must have been a relatively elliptical short range test, to really stress the RV ?

I don't think we can estimate the "angle of re-entry" from video, for we don't know at what angle the video was shot at w.r.t the actual direction of flight.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Jul 2012 13:07

Excellent news on the Nag and NAMICA...as the article says, in the built-up areas of the Punjab, weapon system like nag with top attack profile and LOAL capability, should offer good ant-tank capability.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 15 Jul 2012 13:42

Good news after years of hard work.
Are there any other anti tank missiles that have ranges of 4km? AFAIK Javelin is 2.5km and IA expressed interest in the system.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2012 13:56

kornet (28kg) claims 100m to 5500m ....could be on paper though.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Jul 2012 13:56

^^^Well, NAG is a vehicle mounted missile while Javelin is man portable for the infantry...small difference onleee....

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 15 Jul 2012 14:55

Wondering how the battle of Asal uttar part-2 will pan out, with NAG in the equation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2012 08:42

Maybe they need a thermo-electric cooler for the Nag?

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 16 Jul 2012 11:31

Indian Army and DRDO co-operate to boost tank-killer Nag missile
SOURCE: Ajai Shukla / business-standard.com

The problem with the DRDO’s anti-tank guided missile (ATGM), christened the Nag (Hindi for cobra), is its range. For most of the day and night, the Nag unerringly strikes its targets out to four kilometres, the range that the army demands. But in extreme heat, especially in summer afternoons in the desert, the missile cannot pick up targets beyond 2.5 kilometres. Once the temperature cools, the Nag’s seeker differentiates again between the target and surrounding objects (or ground clutter).

Dr Avinash Chander, the DRDO’s missile chief, told Business Standard, “Even in the worst conditions, the Nag is 100 per cent accurate out to 2.5 kilometres. Except when the temperature is really high, it is also accurate at four kilometres. By the year-end, we will develop a seeker with higher resolution, which will be accurate at four kilometres in any conditions.”

“This is a top-class missile in every respect except for this problem. While we must have a range of four kilometres for the open desert, the reduced 2.5 kilometre range is acceptable for developed terrain like the Punjab. We will buy 13 Nag carriers and use these to familiarise ourselves with the system. And, in Phase II, we will order the four kilometre missile in bulk quantities,” says a top general who decides such contracts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2012 11:49

the soln found to cool the javelin sounds quite complex. similar might be needed on Nag if not already there.

wiki:
Focal plane array (FPA)
Main article: Staring array
The seeker assembly is encased in a dome which is transparent to long-wave infrared radiation. The IR radiation passes through the dome and then through lenses that focus the energy. The IR energy is reflected by mirrors on to the FPA. The seeker is a two-dimensional staring FPA of 64x64 MerCad (HgCdTe) detector elements.[11] The FPA processes the signals from the detectors and relays a signal to the missile’s tracker.

The staring array is a photo-capacitive device where the incident photons stimulate electrons and are stored in the detector as an accumulated charge. The electrons are discharged, pixel by pixel, as currents to a readout integrated circuits attached at the rear of the detector.

[edit]Cooling/Calibration
The FPA must be cooled and calibrated. The CLU’s IR detectors are cooled using a Dewar flask and a closed-cycle Stirling engine. But there is insufficient space in the missile for a similar solution. So, prior to launch, a cooler mounted on the outside of the launch tube activates the electrical systems in the missile and supplies cold gas from a Joule-Thomson expander to the missile detector assembly while the missile is still in the launch tube. When the missile is fired this external connection is broken and coolant gas is supplied internally by an onboard argon gas bottle. The gas is held in a small bottle at high pressure and contains enough coolant for the duration of the flight of approximately 19 seconds.

The seeker is calibrated using a chopper wheel. This device is a fan of 6 blades: 5 black blades with very low IR emissivity and one semi-reflective blade. These blades spin in front of the seeker optics in a synchronized fashion such that the FPA is continually provided with points of reference in addition to viewing the scene. These reference points allow the FPA to reduce noise introduced by response variations in the detector elements.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2012 11:55

problem may not be cooling as the nag will likely have it already but the seeker tech employed. ATGMs cannot have the high cost IIR seeker of a AAM that costs 10 times more. low cost + good enough is used. khan due to volumes and tech base may have found good soln at low price points.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2012 12:49

Nag news has been the best news ever in recent times specially with IA backing it ...puts all doubts to rest of IA looking for import etc that came up in discussion.

Finally with 2.5 and later 4 Km Nag we can think of doing away with other ATGM (Milan-2T/Konkurs ) and standardise on Nag in the coming decade , the production numbers in thousands would justify and lower the cost of electronics that goes into it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2012 14:05

Milan2T being man portable would still be needed in bulk - thats where javelin will replace.
the konkurs is a small ATGM suitable for BMP2...I dont think BMP2 IFV can carry Nag.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2012 16:49

Singha wrote:the konkurs is a small ATGM suitable for BMP2...I dont think BMP2 IFV can carry Nag.

The NAMICA is a variant of BMP that is a dedicated carrier , upgraded BMP-2M have been seen carrying Kornet , see no reason why it cant carry Nag with suitable modification , although the associated electronics will be a challenge.

BMP-2M with Kornet http://data3.primeportal.net/apc/yuri_p ... of_123.jpg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2012 16:50

Another video of RV test this time Minuteman

Minuteman III Missile Launch & Re Entry- California to Kwajalein Atoll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChhYOO1s-nY

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Jul 2012 17:34

Austin wrote:
Singha wrote:the konkurs is a small ATGM suitable for BMP2...I dont think BMP2 IFV can carry Nag.
The NAMICA is a variant of BMP that is a dedicated carrier , upgraded BMP-2M have been seen carrying Kornet , see no reason why it cant carry Nag with suitable modification , although the associated electronics will be a challenge.

BMP-2M with Kornet http://data3.primeportal.net/apc/yuri_p ... of_123.jpg

IIRC, we're also trying something like this for our BMP-2 upgrade. There was a pic of BMP-2 on one of the OFB websites, iirc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2012 20:34

BMP2 - does it carry a single sealed konkurs missile on the roof? how many extra missile does it carry.....to reload the gunner has to fetch it from inside , release the spent tube and clip in the new tube or somehow it can be done from inside?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 17 Jul 2012 03:43

Since missile is kept cooled in the vehicle and flying time is small, I don't think it's cooling issue with FPA/Seeker. In desert top layer of sand will heat up to higher tempratures (as compared to air) and since it's an oxide, it'll have high emmissivity which will cause excessive clutter for weak signals coming from far away. Environment screens IR signal down as it travels in air.

So Singha's is right you need a higher end seeker for achieving longer range....

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 17 Jul 2012 03:55

More pixels in the sensor so the image can be downsampled to usable resolutions with much improved SNR. (Spatial aggregation)
Faster response time of the sensor pixels so that [greater] time-averaging can be performed for improving SNR whilst retaining a usable refresh rate of the image (Time aggregation)
Faster processor(s) and more high-speed memory so all of the above can be performed

The mango jingo would suggest that the above should do the trick. Of course, cost is a major consideration and it would increase. However, complex cooling strategies might be too limiting and OPEX-intensive for a system that could well be mounted at the back of a Mahindra. Better to choose a better sensor with more CAPEX.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2012 07:55

hopefully the Thales umbrella cos have something workable at a decent price point. only volume production would support the local effort and make it cost competitive. the initial tranches will likely be costlier.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jul 2012 08:34

Singha, I thought the Nag already has a Hg Te focal plane array 128x128 seeker.

Anyway can expect a lot more engagements at night or dawn in the desert.

It does it fly 4km in other temperatures.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jul 2012 08:48

rohitvats wrote:IIRC, we're also trying something like this for our BMP-2 upgrade. There was a pic of BMP-2 on one of the OFB websites, iirc.

Yes even an engine upgrade is planned iirc

BMP2 - does it carry a single sealed konkurs missile on the roof? how many extra missile does it carry.....to reload the gunner has to fetch it from inside , release the spent tube and clip in the new tube or somehow it can be done from inside?

I dont think it carries any reload , there are just 4 preloaded launchers for Kornet which provides 5 + km which is good to deal with most stand off targets provided its in LOS.

BMP are primarily amphibious troop carriers and not a heavy fighting vehical , a 30 mm MG with 4 ATGM is good enough be it Kornet or Nag ...if they add more stuff then it becomes heavy needing more heavier engine impacting range , amphibious capability or even tactical mobility...depending on what Army needs they can say sacrifice amphibious capability and go for more firepower and uparmour it.

nits · Post by **nits** » 18 Jul 2012 13:13

India urges Russia to induct BrahMos

India on Tuesday urged Russia to induct the supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, a successful product of Indio-Russian joint venture, into its Navy.

While the missile has been inducted into the Indian Army and the Navy, Russia has so far kept away from adding it to its inventory.

Any specific reason why Russia don't want to use this Superb Quality Missile...

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Jul 2012 13:18

Maybe because it has a range over 300Km and the Ru doesn't want to be caught having violated the MTCR? (now was that in jest? or fond hope)

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 18 Jul 2012 14:11

No. May be because Russia already has YOkhunt missile. Brhmos is a little modified version of the already existing Yokhunt in russian inventory. So there is no urgency to induct just a little better Brhmos.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2012 14:16

afaik Yakhont does not have a land attack role? seems to be a pure play ASM?
brahmos is dual role now.

ofcourse Rus has other weapons in the land attack role like KH101 and 102.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Jul 2012 14:17

Probably to get the cost down ????

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 18 Jul 2012 14:38

^^^^^
My guess is that it's probably a commercial consideration.
The Russians would still like to sell their own missiles internationally; and how would it look if they were buying "someone else's" product?

Yes, I know, BrahMos is a JV, but it's not Rosoboronexport (sic), BrhaMos is in competition with Rosoboronexport.

JMT

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jul 2012 15:03

This issue came up earlier too.The problem then seeemed to be some archaic Russian law prohibiting its armed forces from using foreign eqpt. Now that it is buying French Mistral amphib vessels,a case may be made for BMos.,at least the ASM version which its Russia equv.,Yakhont ,is available only in the anti-ship version.If there is still some reluctance on using BMos,then a quick decision on sales to friendly nations must be taken,so that the clear edge that yhe missile has at the moment in the market can be exploited to the full.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Jul 2012 15:17

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:^^^^^
My guess is that it's probably a commercial consideration.
The Russians would still like to sell their own missiles internationally; and how would it look if they were buying "someone else's" product?

Yes, I know, BrahMos is a JV, but it's not Rosoboronexport (sic), BrhaMos is in competition with Rosoboronexport.

JMT

Wow. I just saw this (posted in full)

Russia To Take Delivery Of BrahMos Missiles From India

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensen ... om%20India

Wed, Jul 18, 2012 09:57 CET
The BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, an Indo-Russian joint venture, currently being built in India, will soon be delivered to Moscow.

The decision to supply the missiles to Russia comes after a meeting between Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony in New Delhi.

India, has already inducted BrahMos into the Indian Army and Navy, and is urging Russia to induct the 290 kilometer range missile.
Rogozin, who was visiting the BrahMos complex in New Delhi, was briefed about the capabilities of the different variants of the Indo-Russian missile.

BrahMos was conceived as a joint venture between India and Russia in 1998. The air version of the BrahMos is still in the development stage.

Meanwhile, Antony has asked the Russians to keep to the delivery schedule of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya which is now on sea trials after a refit at Russian shipyards and is now expected to reach India by July 2013.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2012 16:47

MTCR restricted 290 km is just short of a range for Russia to use it in either Land Attack or Anti-Ship role on capital ships , they would likely arm the new Corvette( 20380/20385) and Missile boats with Brahmos.

Another option is to use it on Flanker like MKI on Su-35 and Su-30SM version of RuAF , Conventional Submarine and Fighter aircraft are the best platform for Brahmos.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Jul 2012 17:23

Couple of things,

Russia buying it might indicate 290KM is a MTCR compliant range and not actual branch

Can Hypersonic Brahmos be converted to a SAM to take down any Hypersonic Bomber?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 18 Jul 2012 19:58

What are the chances that a Helina spin off, with an appropriate war head and some reduced weight can be stuck to the under carriage of a UAV?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 18 Jul 2012 20:14

This can be posted in the ABM thread by somebody .. but I am posting it here as well.

Witness the depths to which some can sink..

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/gove ... 08850.html

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 18 Jul 2012 20:34

D Roy.. u posted it before me.

I haven't read an article filled with greater stupidity than it. Simply can't understand what is the motive of writing all this?

With nuclear weapons around, only a shield that will guarantee blocking every single missile is the only one worth having. As of now there is no indication that the DRDO, or any other country, can achieve such a goal.

None of the DRDO's claims have been verified by third parties, say, any of our armed forces. In contrast, China's January 2010 test was authenticated by the Pentagon whose spokesman said, "We detected two geographically separated missile launch events with an exo-atmospheric collision also being observed by space-based sensors."

none of the three services ever expressed any requirement for such a system. Their need has been for a system to counter shorter ranged, theatre ballistic missiles and cruise missiles.

Non-proliferation experts are appalled at the lack of any visible political guidance to the BMD. The obvious response of an adversary to a missile shield is to field greater numbers of missiles with nuclear weapons; that seems to be the track Pakistan is following. Kak notes, "For an unstable and fragile state like Pakistan, India's BMD could indeed be destabilising, as this would substantially reduce the value of Pakistan's nuclear and missile arsenal, tempting it to increase the same."

In the end he has written..

The government only has itself to blame for permitting a technology programme with such serious ramifications and not providing it any political guidance.

There are just two persons to blame.. the person who hired him.. and the person who didn't fired him after reading this.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 18 Jul 2012 20:59

if sengupta is a noted analyst then i am a general

Well-known defence technology analyst Prasun K. Sengupta

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Jul 2012 21:01

Manoj Joshi is a perfect example of the kind of idiots who can populate Indian defense journalism. Zero technical understanding or knowledge, and ability to hang around the corridors of journalism purely on the dint of age and mediocrity. "SENIOR JOURNALIST" sir.. add a left leaning world view and then reflexive desire to vomit diarrhea each time India achieves something notable..

So if DRDO succeeds with an Agni, it gives Manoj Joshi heartburn...if DRDO achieves a BMD system, Manoj Joshi wets his underwear and calls it jingoism (and then suggests the same to Prasun Sengupta as a suitable quote for giving it "credibility")..its a different matter that Sengupta is as credible as a donkey entering the derby!!

Prasun Sengupta, a middle aged fanboy struggling to get some attention (any attention please, please!) via copy pasting articles and brochures on blogs.

Check this quotation

Sengupta puts it, "Its (the Prithvi's) slow speed during both the boost phase and the terminal phase "does not in any way mimic the flight profiles of the solid-fuelled Theatre Ballistic Missiles and Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles with both China and Pakistan."

The fool apparently doesnt even know that Saraswat went on record stating that the Prithvi used for the tests was specifically modified to attain a high speed to match the TBM/IRBMs with Pakistan and China!

And the Indian BMD system is currently specifically tailored for terminal interception and hence that's what the tests were for. So the Prithvi test articles boost phase speed is irrelevant! As and when the Indian BMD system incorporates boost phase intercept tech (e.g. the ABL tech currently in development) the test articles will be modified accordingly.

So one joker - Joshi - who constantly bats against Indian interests and is involving non proliferation experts into an Indian issue, and then brings in another joker - Sengupta - whose prior dubious claim to fame is plagiarism (adequately documented on this forum itself - check rohitvats expose of Sengupta on the indian defense media thread) ...now Sengupta clearly exposes himself as somebody who knows diddly about Indian program. Clearly begging brochures at arms fairs is not equal to gaining expertise

And then dork Joshi tells us

With nuclear weapons around, only a shield that will guarantee blocking every single missile is the only one worth having.

Oh we see....so if Pakistan launches hundred missiles at India, and the Indian BMD intercepts 90, and only ten hit India....killing far fewer people than a hundred would have...well according to Joshi, thats nothing much! The difference between a hurt India and crippled India is of course, immaterial to this "expert"

Why, we should not even care about at least reducing the impact any nuclear war may have on India. And the fact that the BMD system can even intercept and stop conventional armed missiles to attack Indian infrastructure is immaterial.

This fool is writing in a national journal

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Jul 2012 21:13

suryag wrote:if sengupta is a noted analyst then i am a general

Well-known defence technology analyst Prasun K. Sengupta

The best part is that Joshi is such a fool, such a complete twit when it comes to being anywhere half informed about defense affairs, that he considers Sengupta (LOL!) as a "defence technology analyst".

Sengupta is to defence analysis what KRK is to Bollywood, and Joshi is clearly the Rakhi Sawant of journalism for giving this joker quotation space!

BTW, this is this twit Joshi's record and what happened when DRDO succeeded with Agni-V. Any Indian military or R&D success = jingoistic, unproven, boastful, bad.

http://twitter.com/ADAMPLOW/statuses/193211504198299648

Manoj Joshi says India being 'needlessly boastful' about Agni V. Reminds us there is no independent verification.

These are the self hating idiots who represented India and Indian institutions to the world all this while.

kit · Post by **kit** » 18 Jul 2012 21:25

What about the independent verification he is talking about ? US could monitor the chinese test ..