Indian Naval Discussion

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 17 Jul 2012 05:02

From Russia With Love? China vs. India Carrier Showdown

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The Indian Navy’s newest aircraft carrier, the soon-to-be-commissioned INS Vikramaditya, recently took to the Barents Sea for its second shakedown cruise. After putting the ship through its paces, the Russian shipyard Sevmash will reportedly deliver it to the Indian Navy at year’s end—culminating a prolonged, painful, sometimes comical overhaul process that converted the Soviet “aircraft-carrying cruiser” Admiral Gorshkov into a more conventional flattop featuring a ski jump for vaulting short-takeoff warplanes into the skies.

Meanwhile, China’s first carrier, the Soviet-built vessel formerly known as Varyag, is underway for its longest sea trials since first casting off lines last summer. It will reportedly cruise the Bohai Sea for 25 days. Whether New Delhi and Beijing intend to build blue-water fleets around carrier task forces is no longer in question. They do, and they are.

Which aspiring sea power has the advantage in carrier aviation, China or India?

Tough to say.
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Comparison between the two carriers

member_23626 · Post by **member_23626** » 17 Jul 2012 05:21

VinodTK wrote:From Russia With Love? China vs. India Carrier Showdown

:
The Indian Navy’s newest aircraft carrier, the soon-to-be-commissioned INS Vikramaditya, recently took to the Barents Sea for its second shakedown cruise. After putting the ship through its paces, the Russian shipyard Sevmash will reportedly deliver it to the Indian Navy at year’s end—culminating a prolonged, painful, sometimes comical overhaul process that converted the Soviet “aircraft-carrying cruiser” Admiral Gorshkov into a more conventional flattop featuring a ski jump for vaulting short-takeoff warplanes into the skies.

Meanwhile, China’s first carrier, the Soviet-built vessel formerly known as Varyag, is underway for its longest sea trials since first casting off lines last summer. It will reportedly cruise the Bohai Sea for 25 days. Whether New Delhi and Beijing intend to build blue-water fleets around carrier task forces is no longer in question. They do, and they are.

Which aspiring sea power has the advantage in carrier aviation, China or India?

Tough to say.
:
:

Comparison between the two carriers

Another schlong comparision huh?? lol, keep thinking I say

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 17 Jul 2012 06:56

From a Blog dedicated to tracking Boeing test flights in the Seattle area.

N521DS (IN321) B737-8FV P-8I Indian Navy First Flight

L/N 4014 C/N 40611 B737-8FV P-8I N521DS (IN321) Indian Navy
Dep RNT 15:29 PDT ETA BFI ??:?? PDT via MWH
Call Sign BOE202 Hex Code 80030D
Photo Credit: Drewski (Taxying at BFI after first flight)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/smartjunco ... otostream/

I suppose this blog will be a good source of info to track the progress of the P-8I ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2012 07:53

IN should insist on taking a risk and make sure the LHD deal remains in pvt shipyards. GOI shipyards may supply "modules" but project mgmt and labour should mostly be pvt . let us see where it takes us.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jul 2012 09:50

Russia’s Northern Fleet starts 2nd stage of testing for Indian ship

MURMANSK, July 16 (Itar-Tass) —— The Russian Northern Fleet has started the second stage of testing for the Indian Navy’s aircraft carrier Vikramaditya.

The purpose of the testing is to check key systems and units, the main and auxiliary power plants, as well as communication and navigation systems, Northern Fleet’s spokesman, Captain 1st Rank Vadim Serga said on Monday, July 16.

“A Northern Fleet crew is operating the ship during the trials. Many of the crewmembers acquired extensive experience of operating heavy aircraft carriers during their service aboard the heavy aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov. Also aboard the Vikramaditya are the trial team, representatives of the Sevmash production association and Indian Navy officers,” Serga said.

Naval aviation is involved in the sea trials: aircraft and helicopters fly around and over the ship in order to check its radar, air defence, communication and control systems.

During the first stage of the trials in the White Sea, the ship’s physical fields were measured, and the crew practiced fuelling and fresh water replenishing operations.

“This is a mandatory procedure for all warships and is used for their protection from mines and torpedoes that respond to the magnetic field of a ship’s body,” Sevmash spokesperson Anastasia Nikitinskaya said earlier.

“The aircraft carrier has become completely autonomous, all of its onboard systems and mechanisms are working, it has its own power plant, galley and water supply system,” Igor Leonov, who is responsible for the transfer of the ship to India, said.

The ship is scheduled to be commissioned on December 4, 2012.

Under a package inter-governmental agreement signed in New Delhi in January 2004, the body of the Admiral Gorshkov was transferred to India for free subject to its upgrading at Sevmash and armament with Russian aircraft.

Russia will also train the Indian crew of about 1,500 and create an infrastructure for the ship in the Indian Ocean.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2012 10:03

here are the timelines per wiki of the CAVOUR on which our ADS1 is a 30% upsized variant

Name: Cavour
Builder: Fincantieri
Laid down: 17 July 2001 <- i guess this means keel laying
Launched: 20 July 2004 <- so approx 3 yrs from keel laying to floating the hull and empty island out
Commissioned: 27 March 2008 <- this is where they showed their superiority - just 4 yrs to fit it out and make ready for sea trial
In service: 10 June 2009 <- timely and usual 1 yr sea trial

I always notice we tend to float hulls out in less complete state than other nations and then take MUCH longer to complete the fitting out vs the 2-3 yr that is typical for a DDG/FFG and thd 4-5 yrs that carriers take. we are definitely lacking in many aspects....

it is fairly criminal if our Govt shipyards work in a single shift only, even pvt civil construction builders use 3 shifts these days and work round the clock on apartment buildings with only sunday 2nd half off for eqpt downtime, checks and cleanups. the pix of the mazgaon docs with the P15A ships do not inspire much confidence - rubbish and debris all around, decrepit looking worksheds....none of the spit, polish and bundobust one would expect in a western or japan/soko shipyard. if pvt industry is able to find workers for multiple ships wtf cannot our govt shipyards. new people can always trained.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 17 Jul 2012 10:16

http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-blog ... -showdown/

2 Russian flattops with aspiring powers The article is balanced and not slanted however lacks in depth analysis.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jul 2012 12:39

The news about an extra 3 Talwars being considered is welcome.The series have been a success and built quite rapidly and economically. The point about fitting out delays in Indian yards is a fact.We do not have the sophisticated fitting out facilities at hand where in most foreign yards,a large portion of fitting out of hulls has already been completed because of the modular approach.Until our yards,govt. or private possess these facilities and build in similar manner,we will experience the usual delays.Space constraints,etc. have been held up as one of the problems affecting some yards,esp. MDL.Apart from yard facilties,the training of workers is another matter.It takes just a fraction of the numbers needed for bulding a vessel in Korea when compared with Indian yards.Yet the IN is definitely the best of the 3 services in equipping itself with indigenous systems,suffering less prblems in acquiring eqpt. than either the IAF or IA.

So the problem we face is ,build at home and learn the hard,long way,which does little in equipping the service required to defend eht ecountry's coastline and seas,Or buy from abroad and be at the mercy of foreign yards/companies for spares,etc.At this juncture in time,we will still have to use both options to keep the health of the IN hapy and by incremental methods,mincrease the % and speed of indigenisation.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/264 ... -2015.html

First Scorpene submarine to roll out by 2015: Raju
Hyderabad, July 16, 2012, (PTI):

India is expected to commission its first Scorpene submarine, being developed by French naval construction group DCNS, by 2015, said Union Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju here today.

State-owned Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) is producing six SSK Scorpene submarines (P75) under transfer of technology from DCNS. Simultaneously, DCNS India, its Indian subsidiary, is working on the selection of Indian companies as partners for local production of the Scorpene's equipment.

"We are expecting the first submarine to roll out by 2015 ...we should have all the submarines by 2018. The total cost is little over Rs 20,000 crore," Raju said at a press conference here.

As per the schedule, hulks of six submarines, considered as a critical part, should be manufactured by the end of the year, he said.

To a query, he said India has got investments of Rs 20,000 crore so far due to 'Indian Defence Offset Policy', that mandates foreign defence equipment suppliers to farm out a certain proportion of the work (30 per cent of the contract value) to Indian suppliers.

Raju today inaugurated the joint facility of city-based SEC Industries and DCNS that would make 14 critical components for the Scorpene, to be supplied to MDL.
French Ambassador François Richier was also present.

DCNS India signed a contract with SEC Industries for the manufacture of high technological equipment for the P75 Scorpene submarines in September 2011; second contract was signed in May this year for additional items.

Bernard Buisson, Managing Director of DCNS India, said these contracts cover an extensive Transfer of Technology.

The Factory Acceptance Test (FAT) for the first locally- made P75 cofferdam doors and coamings was successfully performed at SEC Industries in June. The cofferdam doors and coamings are key safety components of the submarine.

http://www.thehindu.com/business/compan ... 646499.ece

DCNS seeks Indian partners for Scorpene project

*Here's an intersting anti-mine USV that the US is putting into ops in the Gulf.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/259353/u ... eeper.html

US Navy's Unmanned SeaFox Submarines Play a Dangerous Game of Minesweeper

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 17 Jul 2012 15:38

2nd Boeing P-8I aircraft for India completes 1st flight

Second P-8I just had its first flight

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2012 15:41

a smoothly oiled machinery it seems. khan is not cheap, but delivers on time except for high risk bleeding edge projects which the P8I is not.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 17 Jul 2012 18:08

venku_Raj wrote:2nd Boeing P-8I aircraft for India completes 1st flight

Second P-8I just had its first flight

How dare these Yanqi Khans deliver the goods so fast and spoil the good image of all other suppliers ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Jul 2012 19:23

Kersi D wrote:
venku_Raj wrote:2nd Boeing P-8I aircraft for India completes 1st flight

Second P-8I just had its first flight
How dare these Yanqi Khans deliver the goods so fast and spoil the good image of all other suppliers ?

The P8I is based on a lot of stuff based on the 737 NG commercial version, so all the basic airframe is a commercial one.. as of the electronics nothing is cutting edge like say the Phalcon

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2012 19:34

still , it does have a lot of mission systems incl some we sent there and some like MAD stinger for whom a canadian supplier was roped in because the P8A will not have it. speaks well of their system integration and test planning if all mission system testing is also making progress in the air and ground. experience counts and they have tons of it.

member_23647 · Post by **member_23647** » 17 Jul 2012 19:46

[quote="kit"][quote="Kersi D"][quote="venku_Raj"][url=http://idrw.org/?p=12810#more-12810]2nd Boeing P-8I aircraft for India completes 1st flight[/url]

Second P-8I just had its first flight

[/quote]

How dare these Yanqi Khans deliver the goods so fast and spoil the good image of all other suppliers ?[/quote]

The P8I is based on a lot of stuff based on the 737 NG commercial version, so all the basic airframe is a commercial one.. as of the electronics nothing is cutting edge like say the Phalcon[/quote]

Phalcon is based on a 1983 platform and P8I a more recent 787-ERX one. P8A is supposed to be the worlds best MR platform and P8I has almost all the goodies in that except a few communication stuff.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2012 19:56

I believe khan is not sharing his best sonobuoys and ofcourse his extensive noise signature library on PLAN subs.
but even khan trailing edge == bleeding edge of the rest, and usually cheaper.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jul 2012 19:57

yup.. capability and maturity of khaanites are top notch.. they spend billions on it.

where as ours is catching up... long way to go., but needs similar investments... not just plug and play and planning, but taking holistic approach towards various programs and projects.

member_23626 · Post by **member_23626** » 17 Jul 2012 20:00

Sometimes I wonder if this is an Indian discussion forum or US sorry to say this a$$licking forum??

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 17 Jul 2012 20:31

Philip wrote:The news about an extra 3 Talwars being considered is welcome.The series have been a success and built quite rapidly and economically.

They should be getting VLS Shtil with 9M317M missile, it has passed the state acceptance tests and is cleared for installation on RuNavy 11356s. Can't see Barak-8 coming soon enough in meaningful quantity.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2012 20:52

did the chinese pay extra to get vl-shtil on their 054 ships ahead of the RuN itself?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 17 Jul 2012 21:10

The comparision between the Indian and Chinese carriers above missed 2 important points--1) the Chinese carrier will make sure to stay at least 300 miles away from any Indian ship carrying a Brahmos and 2) will use the range and punch advantage of its Su-33 clones. Our Mig-29k has comparable range but not the punch. Maybe that's why the IN is still looking at other 2-engined fighters, including the Rafale-M which outclasses the Su clones. IN seems to be keeping its options on the F-35 open too in order to counter the J-20 if FGFA is delayed.

John · Post by **John** » 17 Jul 2012 21:47

Singha wrote:did the chinese pay extra to get vl-shtil on their 054 ships ahead of the RuN itself?

I believe China co developed its own variant for Vl-shtil with Russia might have played our factor in our decision not to purchase the system (same reason China turned down Yakhont).

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 17 Jul 2012 23:07

Singha wrote:did the chinese pay extra to get vl-shtil on their 054 ships ahead of the RuN itself?

Of course, you are well aware that China claims it has nothing to do with VLS Shtil, except some outward resemblance

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 17 Jul 2012 23:54

Critics of America in the MoD and the forces are being genuinely won over by American equipment. The on (sometimes ahead) of time delivery and excellent OEM support is winning over real good opinion. I am not faffing, I have a cousin in a senior position in a transport squadron and he says the mission availability of the C-130Js (they are new aircraft) is almost always 100%, which no other aircraft in the IAF's inventory can match. They are looking at upwards of 24 of that type.

It has been a really well-thought decision to buy the P8-I, C-130J and C-17 from the US. These are aircraft you expect to provide 110% in a conflict as they are the backbone, and somewhat invulnerable to sanctions and the "kill switch". It would be a real icing on the cake if we can sew up a deal for some E-2D Hawkeyes.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 18 Jul 2012 00:42

Naval sources say that even for testing small weapons, ships have to move far out to sea. This not only means extra expense in terms of fuel but also time. Then there’s the fact that in the event of rough seas and during the monsoon, smaller vessels cannot risk leaving harbour. As a result, training suffers.

The environmental reasons are many. For the last three years, the Navy has been fighting a case in the Karnataka High Court over a rocky outcrop near Nethrani island off Karwar. Environment groups have won a stay on the Navy’s live fire tests there on the grounds that it is destroying underwater life. The Navy, however, suspects the environment angle may only be a ruse, that commercial interests see value in Nethrani’s location and may have plans to put up a tourist resort there.

In other words, the Navy should look elsewhere.

Navy's live fire tests face environment hurdle

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2012 06:52

India as the highest density of foreign funded NGOs , environmentalists and "civil society activists" in the world. I have never found out what the third type means.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Jul 2012 10:55

There are half a million foriegn funded NGOs in India. This is because the Indians are unaware that funding is coming with an agenda and they are being setup.

we have an entire generation of leftists who beleive in foriegn causes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2012 11:31

one thing I am waiting to see on a IN ship is a Sylver Axx or Type45 type universal VLS that can take a bunch of SAMs - the key being to attain the benefit or 2/3/4 packing inside a bigger cell the smaller SAMs need to be long and slim rather than short and fat. whether by genius or luck the americans lucked out with the quad-ESSM + SM2 combo, while the Aster15 afaik fits into the same cell as a ASter30 and offers no advantage .... same for Barak1 and Barak8 which have their own VL systems. does VL mica go into Sylver vls?

we should likely fund a Barak1-NG in a form factor to permit 3-packing inside Barak8 cells and move to a UVLS system getting rid of the separate barak1 boxes?
is it worth the bother other than the coolness factor?

likewise the Rus UVLS for klub/brahmos needs an adaptor to house the Nirbhay....this will avoid the inclined boxes amidship concept or even worse yet one more VL type for nirbhay.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 18 Jul 2012 14:37

Vikramaditya which is now on sea trials after a refit at Russian shipyards and is now expected to reach India by July 2013.

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensen ... om%20India

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Jul 2012 15:19

^^^ They have kept saying that it will be handed over to the Indian navy on 4 Dec 2012.

Does it mean they will travel around the place, making ports of call and flexing naval muscles?

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 19 Jul 2012 02:04

India's first indigenous amphibious assault ship turns 25

INS Magar, India's first indigenous amphibious assault ship, on Wednesday observed its 25th anniversary here.

It has participated in 'Operation Pawan' during the IPFK campaign in Sri Lanka, and 'Operation Madad' in the aftermath of Tsunami, where it evacuated over 1,300 stranded personnel from various islands in the Andaman and Nicobar.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Jul 2012 17:40

IAC-1 really now has to battle against all odds

Is Rahul Gandhi a defence enthusiast?

Interestingly, a few days ago I also saw a report which says that Rahul Gandhi is apparently taking a personal interest in our ongoing indigenous aircraft carrier building programme. So we have Rahul, both in support of matters nuclear as well as naval. It might just be in the genes, do we say.

nash · Post by **nash** » 19 Jul 2012 18:09

Aditya_V wrote:IAC-1 really now has to battle against all odds

Is Rahul Gandhi a defence enthusiast?

Interestingly, a few days ago I also saw a report which says that Rahul Gandhi is apparently taking a personal interest in our ongoing indigenous aircraft carrier building programme. So we have Rahul, both in support of matters nuclear as well as naval. It might just be in the genes, do we say.

Today when i saw this news first time, i pray to GOD Please not this one for this ministry , give him something related to entertainment will suit him best.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 19 Jul 2012 18:16

nash wrote: Today when i saw this news first time, i pray to GOD Please not this one for this ministry , give him something related to entertainment will suit him best.

It is reliably learnt that 'Rahul is likely to be appointed as defence minister'.

Rahul Baba will be appointed as Defence Minister

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Jul 2012 19:12

Yes my worry was last time Rahul Ghandi took special Interest in soemthing it was in INC winning Bihar and UP elections. I hope IAC-1 Fate is much better.personally I wish he took interest in something else.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 19 Jul 2012 19:13

Could give positive outcomes.. as he got less than 1.5 years to prove himself. May try to move things faster and compared to AKA nobody will dare questioning his decisions.

Only drawback I see is, as always he may continue on his low self confidence track and over rely on free advice giver oldies around him.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2012 19:20

we should invite him to join BRF

next thing we know undieTV will fall in line and be all praise for us.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Jul 2012 20:37

Singha wrote:I believe khan is not sharing his best sonobuoys and ofcourse his extensive noise signature library on PLAN subs.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Jul 2012 20:39

Singha wrote: but even khan trailing edge == bleeding edge of the rest, and usually cheaper.\

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Jul 2012 20:49

Sridhar.E wrote:Sometimes I wonder if this is an Indian discussion forum or US sorry to say this a$$licking forum??

No Mr Sridhar do not jump to such conclusions.

When Russia delays and we complain then we become anti Russians ?

When US delivers something on time and we praise, we become arse lickers ?

I think all of us are mature enough to distinguish between praise and arse licking though on may get carried away occasiosnally

K

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jul 2012 22:07

Kersi D wrote:
Singha wrote:I believe khan is not sharing his best sonobuoys and ofcourse his extensive noise signature library on PLAN subs.

Hahahahaha.

Came across a report that neither were the French for the Rafale.

Did the Soviets or Russia share such matters? I doubt it. But .....