Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

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devesh
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by devesh »

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... n_position

The Opposition Position
The Syrian revolutionary movement now has officially formed a national council. And it's not as fragmented or weak as you think.
There's no use denying it: From the outside looking in, Syria's revolution sometimes appears to be little more than an unending cycle of violence, with no end in sight. Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad has exploited this perception to apply all possible means to crush the revolt.

The conventional wisdom, however, is wrong. While the world has been preoccupied with crises such as the European financial collapse and the fall of Muammar al-Qaddafi's regime, the Syrian protest movement has grown by leaps and bounds, expanding its base of support and uniting its disparate groups. Much to Assad's chagrin, the more his security forces take action to suppress the opposition, the more the people's resolve to topple the regime increases. Far from the gloomy reports of impending civil war, Syria is heading toward a more peaceful and democratic future.

The evolution of this revolution from its early days has been dramatic. It began last March, with a few young boys scribbling anti-regime graffiti. During its early days, demonstrations were small, spontaneous, short-lived events that occurred in disconnected and confined areas of the country, like the towns and cities of Daraa, Jisr al-Shughour, and Hama. They were limited to Fridays, after prayers. Today, demonstrations are occurring daily and have swelled to include hundreds of communities throughout the country. Last week, for example, hundreds of demonstrations were reported in all regions, including Damascus, Aleppo, Homs, Hama, Latakia, Banias, Tartus, Sweida, and Hasakah.

Thanks to the young and technologically savvy grassroots movements that have sprouted all across Syria since March, demonstrations have become well-planned, coordinated, and carefully executed events -- including in Damascus and Aleppo, whose residents were first viewed as silent bystanders. While demonstrations were usually confined mostly to young men, today they include Syrians from all walks of life, with women and schoolchildren on the front line.

Demonstrations are lasting longer, and the youth movements have set up protocols to ensure that the injured are treated safely and those wanted by Assad's security services are protected and well hidden. And popular resistance is adopting new, innovative, cross-sectarian tactics to express dissent. On Sept. 24, for example, children in Idlib made a human formation of a cross and a crescent to show a united opposition.

While nobody a few months ago would have expected defections from the Syria army, the number of defected soldiers was recently estimated at 10,000 by a U.S. official, and the Free Syrian Army is swelling to include officers from all ranks. The Free Syrian Army has been providing an alternative to peaceful demonstrations for those living in areas under severe and brutal military campaigns, such as Homs, which has been subjected to horrendous crimes including rape, organ theft, skinning, and kidnapping of children.

Similarly, hundreds of members of the Baath Party, the government, and the unions have resigned in protest throughout Syria. The country has been hard hit by the economic losses caused by the demonstrations and the ensuing crackdown. Inflation has made everyday items some 30 percent more expensive, according to the latest increase in the consumer price index. The regime has reacted by suspending all new car imports to the country and is considering bartering its oil products in a desperate effort to cut costs and preserve Syria's foreign exchange reserves.

Six months ago, skeptics did not think that the opposition would be able to achieve the organization or common vision necessary to create a united opposition front. Today, the opposition is represented by the Syrian National Council (SNC), which has gained recognition from the demonstrators on the streets, Syrians abroad, and the international community. The formal establishment on Sunday, Oct. 2 of the council -- which seeks to topple the Assad regime and provide a credible, legitimate basis for a post-Assad transitional government that could peacefully usher in democratic change and build a modern civil state -- is a key milestone for the revolution.

We are well aware that a difficult road lies ahead. As the revolution matures, so have the tactics the regime is using to counter it. Security forces are resorting to tanks, bombs, and rockets to quell the demonstrations. They are destroying homes, businesses, livestock, and places of worship in the process. Entire communities are besieged, with cutoffs of their water, electricity, and phone lines. Rape and torture are routine, and there is evidence from credible sources that interrogators are exhausted from the sheer number of detainees.

Security forces are dressing up as civilians to confuse people and are using shrewd tactics to infiltrate the opposition. This month, the Syrian government set up an armed youth intelligence unit in which pro-regime youth volunteers receive training in special-forces camps before being dispatched to infiltrate the opposition and assassinate their leaders. According to U.N. sources, 3,545 people have so far been killed in this crackdown, including 217 children. And at least 20,000 have been detained, including intellectuals, writers, lawyers, and activists, some from Assad's own Alawite community, which is seen as the most supportive of his regime.

There is no doubt that the revolution is making progress toward toppling the regime. One only needs to dig a bit to see how the revolution's social base has widened, how the opposition has grown, and how the country has changed. Today, Syria is not on a road to nowhere. It is moving in the only direction it can go: onward and forward. There is no turning back.
chaanakya
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by chaanakya »

UN resolution on Condemning Syria was vetoed by China and Russia.
It signifies different ball game for EU USA. No walkover on Third country. Repercussions of Libyan action.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15177114
China and Russia have vetoed a UN Security Council resolution condemning Syria over its crackdown on anti-government protesters.

The European-drafted resolution had been watered down to try to avoid the vetoes, dropping a direct reference to sanctions against Damascus.

But Moscow and Beijing said the draft contained no provision against outside military intervention in Syria.
The vote was 9-2 with four abstentions — India, South Africa, Brazil and Lebanon.

BRICS ruling?
shyamd
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by shyamd »

Adm. Kuznetsov is in the med I think. Asaad is threatening war against israel and iran will strike US warships in the gulf. He said this to Davutoglu.

But, there won't hbe intervention like in libya, the system will fall from within and by protesters. Open borders, weapons are flowing in, money, SF, intelligence operatives.
Asaad's fall will come quick.
Austin
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Austin »

Syria's Assad threatens to attack Israel
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has threatened to attack Israel in the event of any Western military intervention in his country's domestic affairs, Iran's semi-official Fars news agency reported.

"If a crazy measure is taken against Damascus, I will need not more than 6 hours to transfer hundreds of rockets and missiles to the Golan Heights to fire them at Tel Aviv," Assad said at a meeting with Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu on Tuesday.

The comments came after Russia and China had vetoed a UN Security Council resolution condemning Syria for its brutal crackdown on protesters.

Assad also vowed to call on the Lebanese Shia movement Hezbollah for support.

"All these events will happen in three hours, but in the second three hours, Iran will attack U.S. warships in the Persian Gulf and American and European interests will be targeted simultaneously," he said.

More than 2,700 people are estimated to have been killed across Syria since protests against the Assad regime began in March.

Russia's UN envoy Vitaly Churkin said Moscow vetoed the resolution - drafted by France with Britain, Germany and Portugal - because it was based on "the philosophy of confrontation."
Lilo
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Lilo »

Explanation of Vote delivered by Amb Hardeep Puri on draft Resolution on Syria at UNSC on 4 October 2011

October 04, 2011

Thank you, Madame President,

I want to start by congratulating you on assuming the Presidency of the Security Council for the month of October. We have no doubt that you will have an extremely successful Presidency. I would also like to take this opportunity to complement Lebanon, Ambassador Nawaf and his team, for their very wise and able stewardship of the Council during September, a difficult month at the best of times.

2. Madame President, Syria has both historically and in contemporary times been an important country in the Middle East. Its role in the Middle East peace process and in the stability of the wider region cannot be overemphasized. Prolonged instability and unrest in Syria, therefore, clearly have ramifications for the region and beyond.

3. India remains concerned at the unfolding events in Syria that have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of civilians and security force personnel. We deplore all violence irrespective of who its perpetrators are.

4. Madame President, we recognize the responsibility of all States to respect the fundamental rights( not "human rights" thankfully ) of their people, address their legitimate aspirations and respond to their grievances through administrative, political, economic and other measures. At the same time, States also have the obligation to protect their citizens from armed groups and militants. While the right of people to protest peacefully is to be respected, States cannot but take appropriate action when militant groups, heavily armed, resort to violence against state authority and infrastructure. (mimics the reasoning behind our 44th amendment by moraji desai)

5. Given the complexity of ground realities in Syria, we believe that engaging Syria in a collaborative and constructive dialogue and partnership is the only pragmatic and productive way forward. In our bilateral contacts with the Syrian Government as well as through the IBSA initiative, we have urged them to exercise restraint, abjure violence and pay heed to the aspirations of their people.

6. The international community should give time and space for the Syrian Government to implement the far-reaching reform measures announced by them. For this, it is also necessary that the opposition forces in Syria give up the path of armed insurrection and engage constructively with the authorities. We firmly believe that the actions of the international community should facilitate an engagement of the Syrian government and the opposition in a Syrian-led inclusive political process and not complicate the situation by threats of sanctions, regime change, etc.

7. The resolution under the Council’s consideration does not accommodate our concern about threat of sanctions. It does not condemn the violence perpetrated by the Syrian opposition. Nor does it place any responsibility on the opposition to abjure violence and engage with the Syrian authorities for redressal of their grievances through a peaceful political process. We have, therefore, abstained on the resolution.

Thank you.

New York
October 4, 2011
India's stand is nothing new and voices the interests of all the post colonial developing countries which are straddled a with diverse ethnic composition and still formulating their respective multicultural national identity in their own respective ways. Today nothing can be worse than india supporting some minority religious/ethnic group in a country to break away - while bandwagoning with the west citing "human rights violation" as the issue. We should never be a party to any machinations of the west to split their future competitors ala East Timor or kosovo.

On grounds of realism , installing a sunni led government in syria only means more power to saudia which is not desirable. The balance of power equation in middle east if it changes should change the other way round to empower Iran and it is our national interest to help that happen.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

RajeshA wrote:
Johann wrote:Asad's family has now been evacuated to Latakia, the heart of the Alawite homeland within Syria.

That's the clearest sign of the regime's lack of confidence in its ability to regain control of Damascus or even secure its most important people.
And that is something I spoke of about a year ago!

Is this going to be another - ahead of the curve? :wink:

BTW, I think we should post these posts now in the "Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications." Thread.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

Hi Rajesh,

Well done.

One thing though - despite all the sectarian and communalist tendencies, Alawites, Christians and Sunnis alike are Syrian nationalists. While you may well see Lebanese style self-governing strongholds of various groups, like Lebanon there will be no actual breakup of the country.

Instead like Lebanon some sort of power sharing formula at the centre will have to be brokered, probably by the Arab League. Just as the Maronites in Lebanon leaned on the French and Americans, and the Shiites on the Iranians, and the Sunnis on the Saudis, the Alawites will depend on the Russians first and Iranians second. The Orthodox Christians of Syria will also look to Russia.

- - I would turn that Syria thread into a general Arab Spring thread where Syria, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, etc can all be followed and discussed. A general Arab Spring topic thread will have much more longevity. Think of what happened to the Libya thread once Gadaffi was dragged out of his pipe.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by vic »

While Syria has not been anti-Indian but in long run dismantling of fundamentalist regimes in West Asia is good for Indian Strategic security.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by RajeshA »

X-Posted
Johann wrote:One thing though - despite all the sectarian and communalist tendencies, Alawites, Christians and Sunnis alike are Syrian nationalists. While you may well see Lebanese style self-governing strongholds of various groups, like Lebanon there will be no actual breakup of the country.

Instead like Lebanon some sort of power sharing formula at the centre will have to be brokered, probably by the Arab League. Just as the Maronites in Lebanon leaned on the French and Americans, and the Shiites on the Iranians, and the Sunnis on the Saudis, the Alawites will depend on the Russians first and Iranians second. The Orthodox Christians of Syria will also look to Russia for support in times of crisis and negotiation.
Johann ji,

Lebanon was easier to control. It is a small place compared to Syria.

Nationalist or not, if Alawites lose power, they will have to do a serious rethink of their future. Sunni ideological center of gravity has changed quite a lot in the last 22-37 years. It is much more under the guidance of Wahhabism, especially now that the Saudis are helping the rebels. The Syrians have seen what kind of terrorism, the Sunnis were able to spread in Iraq. The Christians have seen how they were hounded out of Iraq.

The best choice for Alawites (and Christians) now is to have Latakia as their stronghold and to separate it from the rest of Syria. Without any access to the Mediterranean (Latakia), the Syrian state under Sunnis would remain weak and dependent on Hashemite Jordan or multicultural Lebanon or Alawite Latakia or NATO-member Turkey or Jewish Israel, or Shi'ite-controlled Iraq. That is the way Israel would prefer it. A division of Syria would also mean that the claims of Sunni Syria on Golan too would become almost null and void. In Latakia the secular Alawites and Christians can enjoy more security and can become part of the Mediterranean community.

With Alawites losing power in Damascus, GCC and Israel would have broken the Shi'ite crescent! That was the goal, other than getting an Oil & Gas pipeline from Gulf to Europe! Sunni Syrians can live off that.

Everybody's happy! So why should there NOT be a partition?

Are the Turks scared of Syrian Kurds getting together with Iraqi Kurdistan?
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by gunjur »

Syria's neighbors on left (Lebanon) and right(iraq) who are also multi ethnic but still have their boundaries intact. Even saudis and turkey would prefer a united syria, also as long as west's interests are served even they would prefer a united syria. So gurus can it be safe to assume syria boundaries will still be intact (but similar to iraq/lebanon each group having their own sphere of influence). Or will a post assad(current regime) syria skip the trend & disintegrate?? Or will the situation turn even much worse like "post soviet and pre taliban afghanistan" (none of the local/global players want this. so maybe this scenario should be ruled out)??
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by RajeshA »

Gunjur ji,

if the Alawites don't bring some part of Syria under their exclusive control which they can defend, like in Latakia, expect a brutal repression of Alawites and Christians in Syria, and they will be thrown into the sea!

Of course Saudi Arabia and Turkey would want Syria to stay together. That would give the Saudis, and their Wahabbis an open route to the Mediterranean, while Turks don't want a partition of Syria because then the Syrian Kurds would also get a part and become independent.

But it is definitely in the interests of Israel and Alawites and Christians of Syria, to have their own separate state in Latakia! Israelis and even Europeans including Greek Cyprus wouldn't want the Wahabbi reach all the way into the Mediterranean. That would be very destabilizing for Western Mediterranean. Also if Europe wishes to have any Mediterranean Zone for Economic Activity, then it is better that Sunni Syria is kept out, and Alawite/Christian Latakia is kept in.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by gunjur »

^^^ even if shias (alawites) manage to have their own area within syria's boundaries, how long can they sustain on their own without support (Even kurds in iraq are autonomous due to an understanding with US). So the Q is, can the west veto both saudis & turkey and allow an autonomous region? Even if west vetoes saudi/turkey and allow an autonomous region, chances that these two will push for their puppet ruler to enforce their diktats. So unless west maintain a no-fly zone and/or maybe even boots on ground, can alawites hold ground for long?? Yes, if syria disintegrates, then it maybe much easier for alawites (by allowing navy bases for highest bidder). But it seems atleast in short term no one wants a disintegrated syria or...??
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by RajeshA »

One was able to keep Lebanon together because it was basically a small place. Iraq was kept together because Shias got the power, Sunnis got Oil revenue from others, and Kurds got sea access and safer northern borders. The good part for Sunnis was that Shia were not so vindictive.

But in Syria, after regime change, Sunnis will be in power. There is NOTHING that Sunni Syria can then give the Alawites or Christians. For the latter it is better to have their own country on the Mediterranean than some illusory power sharing with the lions.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

Gunjur,

You are correct - Iraq and Lebanon set the current precedent for civil wars where the result is that the internal political balance of power matches the demographics.

Syria's borders will not change. No one in the region wants to deal with the issues likely to stem from that.

As for an Alawite pocket, its very sustainable. Latakia is a major port, and the Russians and Iranians will continue to supply them, as well as by air. They will continue to have a huge firepower advantage unless there is a foreign air campaign.

What is more likely to happen is significant internal displacement - Alawites around Homs and Hama forced out, exchanging places with Sunnis from the coastal region around Tartus and Latakia. Thats a lot like what happened in Iraq and Lebanon during the war as well.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by RajeshA »

The Alawites were important for Iranian Shias because they provided a bridge to the Hezbollah in Lebanon. When the Assad regime cannot do that, when they lose inner Syria, Latakia becomes strategically unimportant for Iran. Same is the case for Russia.

I would assume, that sooner or later, the Alawites and Christians holed up in Latakia, would become another Western and Israeli outpost.

Only as long as Assad needed to keep the Syrians together, did he need issues like Golan and an anti-Israeli stance. In Latakia, that will all be past and forgotten.

In 15 years, I expect Latakia to be a part of NATO, thus hardening Mediterranean's Western front.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by gunjur »

However ideal the situation maybe i.e. by allowing alawites to have their own country but as GCC/turkey having spent so much money and arranging for mercenaries to fight assad, they would not like to settle for an disintegrated syria?? So i ask again, can west convince GCC/turkey to be ok with a plain sunni syria(actually i am all for bleeding GCC)?

Also gurus, (even if no one wants this, even a common syrian may not want this) are there any chances that post assad (current regime), syria slides into a free for all situation i.e. similar to post soviet and pre taliban afghanistan?? And if at all if (a big IF) this happens , how would this play out in the region???
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

RajeshA wrote:The Alawites were important for Iranian Shias because they provided a bridge to the Hezbollah in Lebanon. When the Assad regime cannot do that, when they lose inner Syria, Latakia becomes strategically unimportant for Iran. Same is the case for Russia.
Russia very much wants a presence in the Eastern Mediterranean, influence in the Middle East, and a relationship with Orthodox populations anywhere.

They already have naval arrangements in Tartous, and they will pay to keep them. There's no question that the Alawis will remember Russian support with gratitude.

Of course that does not mean Western states can't also build a relationship with an Alawi pocket.

Algeria for example has simultaneously maintained a close relationship with both France and Russia/USSR since independence.

Again none of this should obscure how much like the Sunni-Shia struggle in Iraq the Sunni-Alawi fight is going to look. The internal population exchange is going to be brutal. The difference is that the worst violence will be in the little villages, not the big cities.
Also gurus, (even if no one wants this, even a common syrian may not want this) are there any chances that post assad (current regime), syria slides into a free for all situation i.e. similar to post soviet and pre taliban afghanistan?? And if at all if (a big IF) this happens , how would this play out in the region???
I don't see this happening.

Firstly, historically the Afghan state has always been relatively weak, which is why war and revolution has pushed it into a failed state situation. The class with the experience and skills of governance (including education) was a minority - Persian speaking Pashtuns - who have been pushed out and delegitimized leaving a vacuum. Syria has a much, much deeper history of strong government going back thousands of years. There's no shortage of educated people in every community.

Secondly, Sunni Arabs are the majority in and around Damascus and Aleppo, the two largest cities, as well as Homs and Hama, the next two. They are going to be in a good position politically when things settle down, so they wont have much incentive to turn to Taliban style movements to get representation.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by pentaiah »

France ruled Algeria hence the relationship Russia nurtured Algeria
Hence the continuity of relations one vestigial one revolution export much like what is happening in springs roses. Etc uprisings
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by gunjur »

Johann wrote:Secondly, Sunni Arabs are the majority in and around Damascus and Aleppo, the two largest cities, as well as Homs and Hama, the next two. They are going to be in a good position politically when things settle down, so they wont have much incentive to turn to Taliban style movements to get representation.
Unlike lebanon where shia/sunni/christians have nearly equal %s, syria is a sunni surplus state, where sunnis outnumber others by a long margin. Won't hardcore sunni jihadi/wahabbis become stronger and stronger with GCC support (as in pakistan)??? Maybe not soon but over a period of time hardcore sunni wahabbi/jihadi will turn against alawite/chirstians. Also with alawaite coastal pocket of their own, what/where will be revenue of sunni syria?? Whatever that maybe, chances are that they need to depend on GCC even more(again similar to pakistan). So unless syria is disintegrated i.e. alawaites have their own country, pakistanisation will spell doom for syria. So for peace in mid/longer run will syria be sacrified now by the powers that be??? But disintegrated syria (atleast in short term) is chaos, as no one is sure how this may take effect.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Gunjur wrote:Unlike lebanon where shia/sunni/christians have nearly equal %s, syria is a sunni surplus state, where sunnis outnumber others by a long margin. Won't hardcore sunni jihadi/wahabbis become stronger and stronger with GCC support (as in pakistan)???
In conversation the Syrian Sunni's appear to believe themselves to be of European stock. They don't think of themselves as Arabs. They have a history far more ancient than the Arabs and they are proud of it. Not dissimilar to the Persian Shias vs the Arab Shia's.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by pentaiah »

The fountain head of Sunni power is KSA, the west thinks as long as they can control KSA all other sunni dominated states will follow suit.

During Christmas I ran into a family (young one I guess newly married) from Syria in Geneva Switzerland. I with my family and his were on the same tourist bus taking us around the sight seeing spots. The guy said he works in a Law firm in Dubai. He was saying that much of the rift created in Syria was due to Britain and US. The proximity of ties between Iran and Syria was the problem and Syria being a conduit of arms to Hezbollah was marked to doom.
He also brought into discussion the bombing of alleged Nuke reactor in Syria. He looked very European from appearance
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

Gunjur wrote:Unlike lebanon where shia/sunni/christians have nearly equal %s, syria is a sunni surplus state, where sunnis outnumber others by a long margin. Won't hardcore sunni jihadi/wahabbis become stronger and stronger with GCC support (as in pakistan)??? Maybe not soon but over a period of time hardcore sunni wahabbi/jihadi will turn against alawite/chirstians.
Pakistan's problem is that the centralised national identity its relied on is not based on a coherent, pre-existing local cultural identity. Islamism is the only glue that can hold all the different regional cultures (Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi, etc) together and give Pakistani nationalism some meaning.

Syria is different - it has a regional identity that stretches back thousands of years. It doesn't *need* Sunni fundamentalism to survive as a nation-state.
Also with alawaite coastal pocket of their own, what/where will be revenue of sunni syria?? Whatever that maybe, chances are that they need to depend on GCC even more(again similar to pakistan). So unless syria is disintegrated i.e. alawaites have their own country, pakistanisation will spell doom for syria. So for peace in mid/longer run will syria be sacrified now by the powers that be??? But disintegrated syria (atleast in short term) is chaos, as no one is sure how this may take effect.
Well they'd have Syria's ports - that would be revenue, just from trade. There's some industry, including one of Syria's two refineries. There would be remittances from expats and diaspora. And rentier income from the Russians or whomever. They'll probably end up with a good chunk of the Syrian national treasury as well....

Not very different from the various religious and sectarian pockets in Lebanon on the whole.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by gunjur »

Whatever pakis may say, even they are not arabs. But we all are seeing how GCC $$ is creating havoc within pakistan that too especially for non sunnis. I feel similarly whatever syrian sunni profile maybe, GCC $$ will ensure pakistainsation in syria with hardcore sunni jihadi/wahabbi pouncing on everyone (GCC will ensure purges in army. a outright sunni army dependent on GCC $$ will make matters much worse quickly).
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

Gunjur, The Saudis and Qataris will definitely push it.

But Syrian Sunnis aren't going to stop sending their girls to school, even if some of them want them studying covered from head to toe and away from boys.

I think most Sunnis understand they can not eliminate the Druze, the Christians, the Ismailis, etc, and that they trade, tourism and investment from the whole world, not just the Gulfies.

The Turkish model of Islamism is much more likely to be influential than the Saudi type.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

Breaking news: FSA taken control of the eastern border with Iraq.

==========================================================

Here's a map of the worst reported massacres in Syria:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18595884

Note how they're all on the edge of the Druze area. This is very much like what happened during the mutual sectarian cleansing in Iraq.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by shyamd »

Johann ji, Druze are too small in number and IMO they will just pick the winner of the 2 horses and stay quiet.
Sunni's are the main ones to watch. I think Asad last card will be saviour of the alawites and hunker down in the west. But are the mountains enough to shield them from onslaught from the sunni's? Because the sunni's will use cordone sanitare and take over.

Hunker down with Russian protection is best option for Russia as they May still have access to a port.

The move to latakia - his mother wife and kids have gone there for Assef Shawkat mausoleum and funeral NYT says.

China will drop their vote soon because they are only losing business interests and are in negotiation with Syrian opposition
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

Sorry that a slip of the keystroke - I meant to say Alawi, not Druze. Its been a very long day.
Fidel Guevara
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Fidel Guevara »

Interesting that al-Assad is not regularly issuing "kill the American devil" type of comment, a la Gaddafi and Saddam. He knows there are not too many countries which will take him in after the collapse...no more Libya and Iraq to flee to. NoKo maybe, perhaps Venezuela (though this would be a hazardous logistical exercise).

Interesting also, that Russia+China have limited their involvement to morale-boosting, purely political time-extenders, with no heavy shipments of security gear, barring a couple of helicopter gunships. They probably see the end-game, and want to save face by taking the high road.

Post-Assad Syria will remain unfragmented, as the Turks will make sure there is no Kurdistan. They have way more weight over the next steps in Syria than the rest of the world combined. An Alawite rump-state is also not practical, given the geographically-diffuse demographics of Syria.

They will become another Sunni-majority Western pawn, just like Iraq.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by shyamd »

To help discussions:

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Austin
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Austin »

We can expect Alawites to be mass murdered once Sunni takes over a period of time ......I am sure the Shiah , Christians and Alawites might see the writing on the wall , its essentially a fight for their survival.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by gunjur »

Once sunni takeover is complete in south, east, north and start their coastal campaign, where will shia/christians escape/move to?? Lebanon?? Within lebanon, hezbollah and christains may want to welcome them as it adds to their ranks. But can lebanon handle such a huge number of refugees(already burdened with palestinians)?? Only other option (as per geography) is turkey, turkey can take them but would they want these non turks(maybe with anti-turk feelings) within their border??
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Theo_Fidel »

It is odd how people can be in the presence of evil and not recognize it. Banality of evil and all that.....

People asked for reform and Assad unleashed the hounds of hell. And his wife who stuck by him and went shopping is....

http://www.presidentassad.net/ASMA_AL_A ... y_2011.htm

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Money quote.
The presidential family lives surrounded by neighbors in a modern apartment in Malki. On Friday, the Muslim day of rest, Asma al-Assad opens the door herself in jeans and old suede stiletto boots, hair in a ponytail, the word happiness spelled out across the back of her T-shirt. At the bottom of the stairs stands the off-duty president in jeans—tall, long-necked, blue-eyed. A precise man who takes photographs and talks lovingly about his first computer, he says he was attracted to studying eye surgery “because it’s very precise, it’s almost never an emergency, and there is very little blood.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Fidel Guevara »

Theo_Fidel wrote:It is odd how people can be in the presence of evil and not recognize it. Banality of evil and all that...

Money quote.
The presidential family lives surrounded by neighbors in a modern apartment in Malki. On Friday, the Muslim day of rest, Asma al-Assad opens the door herself in jeans and old suede stiletto boots, hair in a ponytail, the word happiness spelled out across the back of her T-shirt. At the bottom of the stairs stands the off-duty president in jeans—tall, long-necked, blue-eyed. A precise man who takes photographs and talks lovingly about his first computer, he says he was attracted to studying eye surgery “because it’s very precise, it’s almost never an emergency, and there is very little blood.
Bashar does sound like the most "normal" dictator, so different from the Kims, Saddams and Gaddafis of the world. No megalomania, no nuke ambitions, no global terror hub, prosperous and educated nation, responsible family man...just an average dude.

Probably the nicest fellow who ever went on a child-killing spree. Definitely the sanest dictator to get a lynch-mob noose at a lamp-post.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

Fidel Guevara wrote: Bashar does sound like the most "normal" dictator, so different from the Kims, Saddams and Gaddafis of the world. No megalomania, no nuke ambitions, no global terror hub, prosperous and educated nation, responsible family man...just an average dude.

Probably the nicest fellow who ever went on a child-killing spree. Definitely the sanest dictator to get a lynch-mob noose at a lamp-post.
Bashar really isn't that bad as an individual - but he is part of an extended clan. His brother Maher, the Republican Guard commander is very much in the Qusay Hussein mold.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by gunjur »

Though rebellion has been going on for an year now, the rebels are gaining an upperhand over regime forces only during recent weeks. From a plain military fighting pov what tipped the scales for rebels? Yes there are defections happening, rebels have supply of money/weapons from outside but regime forces are feeling the pinch etc. iirc in libya, stalemate was broken by huge number of nato sorties which broke the regime forces(virtually handing victory to rebels then). But here in syria nothing of that sort, so what is behind the military success of rebels off-late?? Is it because army commoners(who do the actual fighting on ground) are seeing that regime will lose and hence not fighting wholeheartedly??
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by shyamd »

Weapons, sanctions, legitimacy in the eyes of the sunni majority, intelligence, strategy. As defections grow, particularly high level (colonels, generals), they know the tactics used by the regime/govt troops and they will get paralysed obviously.

FSA have a command centre receiving intel/coordinating and planning their operations. The FSA have expert help on strategy. It appears that there is a psyop unit in Beirut according to the iranians, but i think its really in Turkey.

Asad still has a very powerful army (120k), but 2 intel agencies. One will get splintered soon as it still has sunni's in there. So eventually he will just have one - Air Force Intelligence - very capable but not good in a strategic pov to rely on one source for info.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by RajeshA »

Gaddhafi has lots of Oil money with which he recruited around 10,000 African mercenaries from Sudan, Chad, Mali and Niger and elsewhere.

Assad can hope for some help from Hezbollah, Iranian Republican Guards and some Iraqi Shia volunteers, but he doesn't have that kind of money. Mainly he will have to depend on his own people. But many of his own people are defecting! The more he kills his people, the more they will turn against him leaving his ranks. Besides Syria is more densely populated.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Johann »

Gunjur wrote:Though rebellion has been going on for an year now, the rebels are gaining an upperhand over regime forces only during recent weeks. From a plain military fighting pov what tipped the scales for rebels? Yes there are defections happening, rebels have supply of money/weapons from outside but regime forces are feeling the pinch etc. iirc in libya, stalemate was broken by huge number of nato sorties which broke the regime forces(virtually handing victory to rebels then). But here in syria nothing of that sort, so what is behind the military success of rebels off-late?? Is it because army commoners(who do the actual fighting on ground) are seeing that regime will lose and hence not fighting wholeheartedly??
Gunjur,

The govt attack on Rastan in particular was a disaster. That town is a major recruiting centre for the Syrian army and its officer corps. The campaign there should have been planned and handled entirely by people like the Tlasses who had the hometown connections instead of Alawi officers.

That was when the high level defections began in earnest. The tipping point was when senior to mid level Sunnis in the regime became convinced that regime were not listening to their advice and thus could not do what it took to win. That was probably around March to May.

Bashar and his brother are *nowhere* as brilliant or patient as their father Hafez al-Asad. Hafez was able to put down the 1975-82 Sunni uprising under very tough conditions that were similar to these, if not tougher.

The old man was just as brutal as these guys, but he also understood how to play politics.

He cultivated different sections of the Sunnis (rural guys, unions, leftist students, etc), promoted them, gave them real responsibilities and listened to their advice despite Alawi pressure to shunt them all aside. They then became his willing partners in putting down the rebellion.

What I've heard over and over again is that Bashar has not listened to any of the Sunnis in the regime. He has shunted aside everyone who gave advice that said look, we cant just shoot and torture people, we need to use politics and outreach as a weapon as well to keep or win back a critical mass of the Sunni population back on our side.

Hafez al-Asad's brother Rifaat was something of a lose cannon and an attack dog, like Basher's brother Maher, and a problem for Hafez. He did his best to keep him leashed, and when he became too much of a problem he was exiled to Paris.
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Pranav »

Libya style stories have already started emerging from Syria. A good case study about an ordinary Sunni family that is horrified by the rebel barbarism -
Not Everyone Hates Syrian President Bashar al-Assad - http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/wor ... html?print
Some people even like the Syrian president. But they're afraid to admit it.


BY TRACEY SHELTON OF GLOBALPOST

ARIHA, Syria - They aren't much talked about. And they are rarely talked to. But supporters of the Syrian government exist.

While President Bashar al-Assad's hold on power appears to be tenuous after rebels landed a fatal blow on his inner circle Wednesday, there are many families across the country that continue to support him and his administration.

In one family, which GlobalPost spent several days with here in northern Syria, four of the five members still back Assad. On one recent night they all sat, anxiously, watching a state television report about "insurgents" closing in on Damascus.

As they watched, the sound of chanting began to fill their living room. A small parade of anti-government protesters passed by.


"Those for the regime will meet your graves soon!" the crowd of mostly teenagers and children yelled, waving revolutionary flags, during their nightly parade through the dark streets of Ariha, a town now held by rebel forces.

The youngest daughter, who attends university in nearby Aleppo, spoke first. "Now that the army is gone, there is no one to stop them from killing us for speaking out," she said.

"At the beginning I loved the idea of a revolution. We have a lot under Bashar - free medical care and quality education. But yes, I think we deserved more. But we've now gone backwards. This isn't freedom. We're being told how to think, how to dress, and threatened for having our own thoughts."

Fearing retribution from rebel forces, the entire family asked to remain anonymous. Their ages have also been withheld to protect their identity.

They are not alone. Others in the city - who were all too scared to say much on the record - also said they supported Assad. The rebels that now control Ariha admitted that about a quarter of the people living here remained loyal to the regime.

By all accounts this is a typical Syrian family. No one works for the government. They have no connections to the army and they do not belong to the Allawite minority that dominates the ruling elite. Like the majority of the rebels, they are Sunni.

More from GlobalPost: Damascus bombings: Who was in the room? (INFOGRAPHIC)

But their opinions vary. The mother and daughters felt strongly that the rebels are to blame for the worst atrocities so far committed in Syria. The father blames both sides. And as for the son, he joined the revolution from the beginning and still participates regularly in protests.

He said his outspoken sisters are persuasive.

"From the first day, this revolution was violent," said the oldest sister. She went on to describe the stone-throwing, destruction of public property and the physical violence against police that were prevalent during the very first protests last year.

She said her brother asked one boy early on why he destroyed the town's only ATM machine, through which the majority of the city's workers accessed their wages. The boy replied, "It belongs to the government, doesn't it?"

"These are revolutionaries!" she said cynically.

The family said they had felt safe in Ariha when the army controlled the streets. While the opposition says army checkpoints were used to arrest the innocent, the family said the soldiers were friendly and their presence proved that the government was doing its best to maintain security.

The checkpoints are now manned by "5th graders with guns," said the oldest sister, referring to the rebels.

"Even if one person in this town is killed by an army bullet, it is the fault of the Free Syria Army," the younger sister said. "Every clash I have seen in this city, they always attack first. Of course the army must return fire if they are fired upon."

She said the Free Syrian Army uses "shabiha" as a perpetual scapegoat. The shabiha are a feared group of paid government thugs, civilians who activists say are responsible for large scale slaughters, particularly of women and children.

"If they kill anyone, they just label them shabiha," she said dismissively. "They kidnap people for money and say they are shabiha."

The younger sister said the father of a school friend, who supported the revolution, was once kidnapped. The man had worked as a clerk in a government prison. After the family paid money to his captors, and he agreed to leave his job, he was released unharmed. Frustrated, she said her friend still supports the rebels.

"As a teacher, all kinds of authority has been taken from me," said the older sister, who teaches English at a local primary school. She said students come and go as they please, claiming they want to join demonstrations. Boys chant offensive anti-Assad slogans in class.

"I am forced to condone this behavior or be labeled ‘anti-revolutionary,'" she said.

The family members went on to recount the numerous false reports and exaggerations that they said emerge daily.

The previous day GlobalPost witnessed an examle. Pro-revolution television stations reported that the bodies of 20 men from Ariha, who had been imprisoned by the government, were found on the outskirts of town with their hands tied, throats cut and bodies mutilated.

Distraught families and rebel groups gathered at the town morgue, waiting for the arrival of the bodies. But they never came and soon news filtered down that the reporter had confused Ariha with a neighboring town. Eventually it was revealed that the whole report had been false, a fact that was never corrected by the local media.

The girls recalled attending the funeral of a friend who had died from cancer in the provincial capital of Idlib. They said that as journalists approached the scene, the crowd began to chant "as if she had been killed by government forces."

Their mother added the account of a shopkeeper who had been caught in the crossfire of government and rebel clashes and was accidentally shot by the rebels themselves. He was buried the following day as a celebrated martyr.

"He was with them and they shot him by accident. How can they call him a martyr?" she asked. "They seem to think they can hand out passes for righteousness."

As the regime continues to crumble, it is hard to believe there is any way Assad could remain in power. But families like these exist all over the country, and they are not fooled by propaganda from either side.

"I am not going to try to tell you about what is happening in another place like Homs or Damascus, although I have many friends that have told me what is really happening," said the oldest girl, when asked about the reports of government massacres. "I am talking to you only about my town and what I have seen with my own eyes."
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Re: Syrian Resistance : Strategy and long term implications.

Post by Pranav »

All in all, it is clear that Assad retains a good deal of support even amongst Sunnis.

Rebels are a foreign sponsored movement that uses lumpen elements are foot soldiers.

No wonder they are so dead against the elections that have already been offered.
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