Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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SaiK
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 21 Jul 2012 18:14

http://reflections-shivanand.blogspot.com/2008/09/interview-rigveda-harappans.html
To call Rig
Vedic Aryans as pastoral herdsmen
is a total misinterpretation. In fact
there are many verses in Rig Veda
describing agriculture and trade including
maritime trade. There are
detailed descriptions of three masted
sailing ships; there are descriptions
of fortified cities with three
different parts which can be called
the citadel, middle town and lower
town, (also found in Dholavira).
There are hints of city life with its
virtues and vices in the text. There
are many linguistic and conceptual
connections between Rig Veda and
Ahura Mazda of Zarathushtra of
Persia, the former however having
chronological priority.

...

As
for the Rig Vedic political system,
the sabha was perhaps a house of
elders, whereas the samiti had artisans,
farmers and the elite, that is
different classes and professions, in
it. Thus stratification had already
come into being. It would be romantic
to call it republican and democratic.
At best it was an oligarchy
assisted by a set of diverse group of
professionals in a samiti.

....


differs on the horse theory, that rig veda does say indra fighting wars without horses.

....

VITAL INFO:

Aridity seems to have led to retrogression
and later migration of
Harappans. There is no evidence
of any invasion. In fact, the Aryan
invasion theory is pretty untenable
today. There are basically two periods
which are significant archeologically:
the Neolithic culture of Mehrgarh
that is 8th millennium BCE,
and the chalcolithic (copper age)
period in the fifth millennium BCE,
when a new socio-economic order
emerged in the North-Western part
of the subcontinent. Continuity in
change may be seen all throughout
the Harappan and post-Harappan
periods. Only a few people trickled
in from Central Asia in the second
millennium BCE. They remained
localised in the Gandhara region or
the Kachi plain and some valleys
in Baluchistan. They then disappeared
without bringing about any
social, economic, religious or cultural
change in India.


sorry, if this was linked here earlier. thought it was fascinating to read the interview

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 21 Jul 2012 18:23

For Library: Books on Dwarka

Image

Publication Date: Jan 10. 2002
Author: Subhadra Sen Gupta
DWARKA:Krishna's Dhaam by the Sea
(Not really on archaeology)


Image

Publication Date: Oct 28, 2003
Author: Graham Hancock
Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization [Amazon] [Books Google]

Dwarka, India - 12,000 Year Old City of Lord Krishna Found
By Graham Hancock



Image

Publication Date: 2005
Author: A.S. Gaur, Sundaresh & K.H. Vora
Archaeology of Bet Dwarka Island


Image

Publication Date: 2008
Author: A.S. Gaur, Sundaresh & K.H. Vora
Underwater Archaeology of Dwarka and Somnath
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 21 Jul 2012 18:40

For Library: Ancient India


Image

Publication Date: 2002
Author: D.P. Agrawal & J.S. Kharakwal
South Asian Prehistory


Image

Publication Date: 2005
Author: Ashvini Agrawal
In Search of Vedic-Harappan Relationship


Image

Publication Date: 2008
Author: Dilip K. Chakrabarti
The Battle for Ancient India: An Essay in the Sociopolitics of Indian Archaeology

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 21 Jul 2012 18:52

Look who is talking on Arya, Sanskrit and Swastik, AIT, AMT

1 Hour video but interesting nevertheless

http://beingdifferentbook.com/vedic-culture-center//

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 21 Jul 2012 19:17

Thinking in Sanskrit re

ज्ञानं सर्वं शब्देन भासते |

- Vakyapadiya of Bhartrihari

(Let) All Cognition is the product of the form of (Sanskrit) Words.

****

More

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spho%E1%B9%ADa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aabda

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 21 Jul 2012 20:04

We need to be making such presentations/simulations

Code: Select all

http://www.eduplace.com/kids/socsci/ca/books/bkf3/imaps/AC_07_228_aryan/AC_07_228_aryan.html


and spreading throughout the Internet!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 21 Jul 2012 20:26

Posting it in full

Published on Mar 21, 2011
By Rajiv Malhotra
European Misappropriation of Sanskrit led to the Aryan Race Theory

It is not widely known that the European quest to appropriate the highly prized library of Sanskrit's ancient spiritual texts motivated the construction of the "Aryan" race identity, one of the ideological roots of Nazism. The Sanskrit word "arya" is an adjective that means noble or pure. For example, the famous Buddhist Four Noble Truths are described as the Four Arya Truths or catvāri āryasatyāni in Sanskrit. Arya does not refer to a race, but a cultural quality venerated in Sanskrit texts.

German nationalism turned this word into a noun, "Aryan," and capitalized it to refer to an imagined race of people that were the original Sanskrit speakers who had composed its great texts. Early romantic claims that Indians were the ancestors of the Europeans were gradually replaced by the new myth that a race called "Indo-Aryans" was the common ancestors to both. Their origin was thought to be in the Caucasus Mountains, hence the term "Caucasian." Later, the "Indo" was dropped and the white Aryan Race Theory emerged. Thus, from the European desire to be seen as the inheritors of the Sanskrit civilization, the notion of a European super-race was born, with Germany as its highest manifestation.

How did this come about? In the late 1700s, European identity was shaken when scholars discovered that Sanskrit was closely related to the European languages, though much older and more sophisticated. At first, this discovery fed European Romantic imagination, in which India was glorified as the perfect past. Herder, a German Romanticist, saw Europe's "discovery" of India as a "re-discovery" of its own foundation. India was viewed as Europe's mother civilization by Frederick Schlegel in Germany and by Voltaire in France. William Jones, a British colonial administrator, considered Sanskrit the most marvelous product of the human mind. Sanskrit and Indology entered most major European universities between 1800 and 1850, challenging if not replacing Latin and Greek texts as a source for "new" ideas. Many new disciplines were shaped by the ensuing intellectual activity, including linguistics, comparative religion, modern philosophy and sociology.

With European nations competing among themselves for civilizational legacy, many rival theories emerged regarding the origins of the original Sanskrit speakers and their civilization. German nationalists found in the affinity between Sanskrit and German the possibility of a newly respectable pedigree vis-à-vis the French, and claimed the heritage of the treasure trove of Sanskrit literature to bolster their cause. The British interpreted India and Sanskrit in a manner that would strengthen their own role as empire-builders, with India as the jewel in the crown. Because Indians were not participants in European forums, there was widespread plagiarism of Indian texts, as well as much distorted interpretation.

By "becoming" the Aryans, Europeans felt that they were the rightful custodians of the massive corpus of Sanskrit texts that were generating new breakthroughs in the humanities and liberal arts. Germans took their newly adopted Aryan identity to extremes, and most of the influential European thinkers of the time colluded. Their racist theories often had an anti-Semitic dimension, seeking to reconstruct the Bible in Aryan terms. Ernest Renan, a philologist and Hebrew scholar, drew sharp distinctions between Semitic and Aryan languages and peoples. He proposed that though Aryans began as polytheists they were later transformed into Christian monotheists, and that Semitic peoples comprised an entirely different (and inferior) civilization. Adolphe Pictet, a Swiss linguist and ethnographer, was fully committed to the notion of European Aryans who were destined to conquer the world being blessed with "innate beauty" and "gifts of intelligence." He separated Jesus from Judaism, and turned him into the Aryan Christ.

The nascent discipline called "race science" was reinforced by such ideas. Joseph Arthur Comte de Gobineau, a French diplomat, philosopher and historian argued in his hugely influential Essay on the Inequality of Human Races that Adam from the Bible was the "originator of our white species." He wrote of the "superiority of the white type and within that type of the Aryan family." His thesis on India claimed that white Aryans had invaded India and subsequently began to intermarry with the local population. Realizing the danger of intermarriage, the Aryan lawgivers invented the caste system as a means of self-preservation. India was held up as an example of how interbreeding with an inferior race could bring about the decline of a superior one. Hitler's idea of "purifying" the Aryans was born out of this, and it culminated in the Holocaust.

Houston Chamberlain was a British historian whose magnum opus, Foundations of the Nineteenth Century (written in German), also projected Aryan-Germans as the most evolved among Aryan races. He introduced Christian, scientific and philosophical arguments to lend credibility and explained the benefits that Christianity would derive by supporting German racism. Anthropologist Kenneth Kennedy concludes of Gobineau and Chamberlain, that they "transformed the Aryan concept, which had its humble origins in philological research conducted by Jones in Calcutta at the end of the eighteenth century, into the politics and racial doctrines of Adolph Hitler's Third Reich."

In 2007, I played a role in a historic milestone when I was invited to address the first Hindu-Jewish Summit. I spoke on the Aryan myth and the suffering that it had inflicted on both religious communities. Contrary to earlier apprehensions of some Hindus that this was a "risky" topic to bring up, the head of the Jewish delegation, Rabbi Rosen, member of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel's Commission for Inter-religious Dialogue, was very impressed. The Jewish delegation decided to appoint a team of scholars to study the issue and the references I had supplied. As a result, at the following year's Summit, a joint declaration was signed, which included the following language from my draft:

"Since there is no conclusive evidence to support the theory of an Aryan invasion/migration into India, and on the contrary, there is compelling evidence to refute it; and since the theory seriously damages the integrity of the Hindu tradition and its connection to India; we call for a serious reconsideration of this theory, and a revision of all educational material on this issue that includes the most recent and reliable scholarship."

Today, the Western mainstream has made special efforts to remove the notion of an Aryan race from the vocabulary and the public psyche. However, as my recently released book, Breaking India, explains, the damage in India has worsened. The Dravidian Race Theory was formulated by British missionaries in the 1800s in parallel with the Aryan theory, and it divides the peoples of India into racial categories of "Aryans" and "Dravidians." Western scholars and institutions continue to support Dravidian racism, which is dependent upon acceptance of the Aryan race construct. In a future blog I will explain how Christian missionaries are now exploiting these dangerous constructs.
Last edited by RajeshA on 21 Jul 2012 20:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 21 Jul 2012 20:34

ramana wrote:BTW, Husky of IF and Acharya had written this article now no longer in the IF journal



http://www.scribd.com/doc/7447100/The-A ... an-History
Category: Research > History
Rating:
(90 Ratings)
17,930 Reads
Upload Date: 10/22/2008
Copyright: Traditional Copyright: All rights reserved


It is in the scribed and it is spreading everywhere.

We had some EJs look at it start discussing it. They even referred this to source of OSS. :D

This article says the same thing which RM talks about. This article was created in 2006 when we figured out that Europeans are only concerned about their history and origin and are taking whatever is needed from others to construct their history.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 21 Jul 2012 20:36

Is there a way to bring India's true history devoid of AIT/AMT, to the Indian school-going children and college students, skirting official channels?

Perhaps Children Story-Books, Comics, Cartoons, etc.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 21 Jul 2012 20:42

Here is something interesting from Amar Chitra Katha!


Image

The Indus Valley Adventure

Description: Vijay and Durga have no idea what they are in for when they accompany their amateur archaeologist grand-father to the excavation site of the Indus Valley civilisation. Quite annoyed that they have to spend their holidays in a dusty dump they are hardly prepared for the amazing adventure that takes them back 3390 years to a world that they have only read about in their history books. An adventure that involves a clay whistle, a boy called Vala and his pet goat.

Amar Chitra Katha presents a very special story that brings to life one of the most ancient civilisations of the world.


------------------

I haven't read the book, so I am just speculating based on the description. What we see here is that a time-travel journey into the past, means landing not in some Vedic/Pauranic setting, it means landing into the Indus Valley, because ... well Vedic/Pauranic is all mythological stuff and not true, right? :roll:

Also the date 3390 years is just the right date to choose, because later on the Aryans invaded and everything turned topsy turvy for the Harappans! :roll:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 21 Jul 2012 20:45

THose pictures must be more Indian. Indians had distict culture for many millinium

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 21 Jul 2012 21:03

I am thinking, we should thank globalization and IT industry since late 1990s >2000s to create an awareness that this AIT is all BS. I have my own experiences with well educated pee chaddies arguing aryan vs. dravidian and feeling superior because they came from a state that is northern or towards north relative to the other person's zone. serious fights, and stupid arguments, and divisions.

This AIT syndrome though driven by external forces, surely is spread by internal gullible desis. The real education must reach them and not the internet walahs, though it is important to educate kids via internet.

Grass root level should be spread within Northerners to think they are not aliens, who come from a fair and fairly european land, and changed the colors due Indian heat. This is plain BS, and jailable offence in terms of racial segregation.

bollywood should start considering heros and heroines who look beautiful not just by skin color alone.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 21 Jul 2012 21:07

Indus Valley Adventures available on flipkart

http://www.flipkart.com/indus-valley-ad ... 9a2e4f13fc

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 21 Jul 2012 21:10

For places which are still heavily populated in India, it is difficult to undertake archaeological excavations, so one should consider doing remote sensing. Could be useful in places like Ayodhya, Varanasi, etc.


The International Archives of the Photogrammetry, Remote Sensing and Spatial Information Sciences. Vol. XXXVII. Part B7. Beijing 2008

A New Archaeological Remote Sensing Technology

By :
1. Aerophotogrammetry & Remote Sensing of China Coal,Xi’an, 710054
2. National Historical Museum of China,Beijing 100006
3. Archeological Institute of Shaanxi Province, Xi’an, 710054

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dhiman » 21 Jul 2012 21:48

RajeshA wrote:Dhiman ji,

The last one looks like a bullock chariot, as the bullocks have humps. However all other look like Aryan horses, and I can count 36 ribs in each as well.


True sir, but a chariot nevertheless. And there is corroborating evidence as well: skeletal remains of horses in IVC traced to early period of IVC and in other parts of India as well. Not full skeletons, but horse remains nevertheless. So, anyone who gives horses and chariots as an excuse for AIT is deluding himself. The barrier for linking AIT to horses becomes very very very high.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dhiman » 21 Jul 2012 21:50

Number crunching shows that Indus Valley script is closer to the way modern languages are written rather than random characters or strict computer code:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwYxHPXIaao

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 21 Jul 2012 22:29

Folks it is important to kill all the lies and fabrications that even modern scholars are adding to the Aryan Invasion Theory AIT - the modern AIT Nazis.

In this connection I want to bring up the subject of a relatively new book - by one David Anthony called "Horse, Wheel and Language" alluded to several times in the early pages of this thread, with many refs posted by ManishH.

Shri Anthony says that the "Sintashta graves" found in Centarl Asia were of a people so similar to the people who composed the Rig veda that they are one and the same and that the culture that was found in those graves in Central Asia represented Rig Vedic culture, and therefore those people migrated to India and composed the Rig Veda - singing about the horses they lived and died with in Central Asia. The horse was important to them Domesticated horse bone evidence has been found there. And the horse was domesticated in that region. Only, the moved to India and then left a memory of their Central Asian culture in the form of the Rig Veda.

If we ignore obvious the absurdity of finding graves in one place and claiming that the grave represent the people who composed poems in some other area 200 km away we are still left with the fact that this absurdity being passed off as scholarship still needs to be countered if it is not to be passed off as the "best available theory"

We have seen plenty of evidence of the horse in India from that era. Also RajeshA has serendipituously pointed out that those central Asian cultured depended on mare's milk and not a single shred of evidence can be found of mare's milk in or out of the Rig Veda despite the comparisons between the Rig Veda and some central Asian graves.

But I want to make one more point relating to the horse in the Rig Veda versus the Central Asian graves and point out how David Anthony has bluffed in a book that is being widely quoted as a scholarly work.

Her is what David Anthony says:
Sintashta and Potapovka-Filatovka grave pits, which had wooden plank
roofs supported by timber posts and plank shoring walls. The horse sacri-
fice at a royal funeral is described in RV 1.162: "Keep the limbs undam-
aged and place them in the proper pattern. Cut them apart, calling out
piece by piece." The horse sacrifices in Sintashta, Potapovka, and Ftlatovka
graves match this description, with the lower legs of horses carefully cut
apart at the joints and placed in and over the grave. The preference for
horses as sacrificial animals in Sintashta funeral rituals, a species choice
setting Sintashta apart from earlier steppe cultures, was again paralleled
in the RV. Another verse in the same hymn read: "Those who see that the
racehorse is cooked, who say, 'It smells good! Take it away!' and who wait
for the doling out of the flesh of the charger-let their approval encourage
us." These lines describe the public feasting that surrounded the funeral of
an important person, exactly like the feasting implied by head-and-hoof
deposits of horses, cattle, goats, and sheep in Sintashta graves that would
have yielded hundreds or even thousands of kilos of meat.


The key here is what Rig Veda 1.162 says

Rig Veda 1.162 refers to Book 1, Poem number 162.

Out of over 1,000 poems in the Rig Veda this one refers to the sacrifice of a horse. First I want to point out how
1. Griffiths Translation to English of an older German translation of the Rig Veda is itself faulty
2. David Anthony has further corrupted the faulty translation and made it fit his needs to make the Rig Veda people appear in Central Asia.

Let me start with Griffiths. Here is the original Sanskrit verse 162.19 and its accurate Hindi translation. Below that is griffiths mistranslation. Any Hindu who has lost a loved one or has attended the memorial ceremony of a deceased person will know that "pinda" is a food offering to the Gods that is not eaten by humans. It is placed outside to be eaten by animals

Here is an image of the original sanskrit and the Hindi translation. The English translation by Griffiths totally misses the point and refers to a mysterious "Tvastar"! There is no Tvastar in the text. There is a "Ritu" which indicates the auspicious time at which a sacrifice is to be made. Griffiths translation is utter nonsense.

Image
19 Of Tvaṣṭar's Charger there is one dissector,—this is the custom-two there are
who guide him.
Such of his limbs as I divide in order, these, amid the balls, in fire I offer.


Now we come to verse 12 of RV 1.162.
David Anthony says:
"Those who see that the
racehorse is cooked, who say, 'It smells good! Take it away!' and who wait
for the doling out of the flesh of the charger-let their approval encourage
us."


Griffiths says:
12 They who observing that the Horse is ready call out and say, the smell is
good; remove it; And, craving meat, await the distribution,—may their approving help promote
labour.


The original says
Those who smell the aroma of the horse and say "Offer it to the Gods", and those beggar/mendicants who expect an offering, may their pledges be ours

Here is the original+Hindi translation
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k56 ... -hindi.jpg

The point that Griffiths and all western commentators miss in all this is that this is a horse sacrifice that is made primarily to the Gods. Verse 14 of the same poem indicates that it is part of the Ashvamedha Yaga ritual - a rare, one off event. Every verse indicates how anything associated with that horse is first and foremost and offering to the Gods and not your common everyday lunch.

One more misleading concoction by David Anthony is:
The horse sacrifice at a royal funeral is described in RV 1.162: "Keep the limbs undam-aged and place them in the proper pattern. Cut them apart, calling out piece by piece." The horse sacrifices in Sintashta, Potapovka, and Ftlatovka graves match this description, with the lower legs of horses carefully cut apart at the joints and placed in and over the grave.


Rig Veda 1.162 has no mention of any royal funeral it is pure horse sacrifice related to the Ashwamedha Yaga. And there is no mention of a grave,. In every case the parts of the horse are offered to Agni (fire) Verse 20 makes this clear . This verse pleads that the man who carves the horse does it carefully so that the Horse does not lose its parts by careless dissection.

Finally I want to stress that of all the food items mentioned in the Rig Veda, horse meat in the diet appears in only poem 162 as part of a sacrifice. This is is stark contrast to the Sithashta culture where horse meat formed 20-30 % of the diet. No wonder they found so many bones


David Anthony "Horse Wheel and Language"
With up to eight horses sacrificed for a single funeral,
Sintashta feasts would have fed hundreds, even thousands of guests . Feast-
hosting behavior is the most common and consistently used avenue to
prestige and power in tribal societies.


Google Books
Horse meat constituted 20-30% of Andonovo Meat consumption

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 21 Jul 2012 22:30

Dhiman ji,

Please allow me to reformulate that evidence.

Vedic Aryans were quite fond of horses. In fact other people among them Arabs used that fondness and had a roaring business going in supplying horses to the Vedic Aryans as far back as 6500 BCE.

Rig Veda tells us about Arab horse, when it mentions a 34-ribbed horse.

This trade was already taking place before some Vedic tribes from India started on their long migration to Europe. That is why we see the Sanskrit word 'asva' in such words as 'equus' (Latin) and 'hippos' (Greek). The Europeans have however no memory of this as they lack such ancient literature as the Indics have, e.g. the Rigveda.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 22 Jul 2012 00:50

That is a brilliant post shiv ji. Must nail it on this virtual wall. This meat eating is taken to extremes by ait-natzis branding all indics are non-vegetarians by origins. the translators have no idea about the language nor indic culture.. they just do it for their sake of citations, with hidden agendas and wrong motives.

One might say indics largely are non-vegetarians, but 99% of them are vegetarians who also eat meat, and not the stupid western kinds where 99% of their food content is meat. How come only meat eating reference which is a scarce reference in the text is blown out of proportion to aid the ait vendetta and ignoring all indic vedantas.

your post has stuffed cow dung and moo manure into the throats of ait-natzis. I wish one of those nazis visit this thread to accept defeat and vindicate their agenda.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 22 Jul 2012 09:46

Sanskrit - A day of teaching Sanskrit at St James School, London

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q14wAJE ... re=related

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 22 Jul 2012 10:03

Stephen Thompson Introduces Sanskrit Alphabet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wbVctUP ... re=related

Sanskrit: A crash course - Diane Johnson, WWU (Western Washington University)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_JAoojC ... re=related

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 22 Jul 2012 10:16



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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 11:06

Murugan ji,

All this Sanskrit education in the West (UK, USA, Germany, France, Nordic countries) is something I am quite wary about. Who knows how many of these kids would be the next Max Müllers, Robert Caldwells, and other Weasels?!

Once Sanskrit has been reestablished in India as the national language and its use becomes common place in secular fields and administration, then one can be assured that what we see here with Sanskrit teaching in the West is not simply another stage of digestion of Indian Civilization, appropriation from India considering it as some Euro-Aryan property! Till then I personally would not cheer any popularity of Sanskrit in the West.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 22 Jul 2012 11:20

RajeshA - ji

I agree with you.

Before Sanskrit is digested somewhere elses, This is a 'pizza effect' (RM's term) Technic used here. :wink:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 11:35

For Library: Vedic Yagnas


Image


Publication Date: 2002
Author: Subhash Kak
The Aśvamedha: The Rite and its Logic [Books Google] [Amazon]

Description
This book describes the ASVAMEDHA rite and its symbolism to explain distinctive aspects of the Vedic sacrifice system. Several questions related to the Asvamedha are posed and answered in the context of Vedic epistemology. This rite has three important functions: (i) it presents and equivalence of the naksatra year to the heaven, implying that it is rite that celebrates the rebirth of the Sun; (ii) it is symbolic of the conquest of Time by the king, in whose name the rite is performed; and (iii) it is celebration of social harmony achieved by the transcendence of the fundamental conflicts between various sources of power. Numbers from another Vedic rite, the Agnicayana; help in the understanding of several of its details.

shiv saar,

perhaps one needs to look at this ritual in some depth, to see how and why it was conducted. We would be able to judge the claims of David Anthony with regard to the findings in the "Sintashta graves" better then.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 22 Jul 2012 11:36

RajeshA wrote:Murugan ji,

All this Sanskrit education in the West (UK, USA, Germany, France, Nordic countries) is something I am quite wary about. Who knows how many of these kids would be the next Max Müllers, Robert Caldwells, and other Weasels?!

Once Sanskrit has been reestablished in India as the national language and its use becomes common place in secular fields and administration, then one can be assured that what we see here with Sanskrit teaching in the West is not simply another stage of digestion of Indian Civilization, appropriation from India considering it as some Euro-Aryan property! Till then I personally would not cheer any popularity of Sanskrit in the West.


There is also equal possibility of kids becoming Koenraad elsts David Frawleys and Robert Svobdas.

The sincerity in teaching sanskrit in the West is remarkable. Google/Youtube throw more results of yog and sanskrit - originating from non-indian sources than desi ones. I have posted mostly indian sources in Subhashitani thread in GD forum.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 11:39

Murugan wrote:This is a 'pizza effect' (RM's term) Technic used here. :wink:


Okay, I get it! :)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 11:58

Murugan wrote:There is also equal possibility of kids becoming Koenraad elsts David Frawleys and Robert Svobdas.

The sincerity in teaching sanskrit in the West is remarkable. Google/Youtube throw more results of yog and sanskrit - originating from non-indian sources than desi ones. I have posted mostly indian sources in Subhashitani thread in GD forum.

Murugan ji,

I have recently thought about where the fork is in the road. When do they tend to go the way of the gentlemen you mention, and when they turn out as Weasels.

I think the crucial difference is
  1. they should not have Christianist Fever
  2. they should not have Racial Superiority
  3. they should appreciate Deeper Spirituality (as that of Sanatan Dharma)
  4. they should appreciate Scientific Spirit of Inquiry
  5. they should appreciate Human Plurality
  6. they should appreciate Social Openness
  7. they should appreciate Present Indic Practices and their Evolution

I think these are the memes we should be looking at in order to differentiate whether the person is following an agenda to enrich his own tribe/nation/religion at the cost of India, or whether he believes in the Indian potential and would wish it to fructify, and sees that as the path of salvation for humankind.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 22 Jul 2012 12:20

RajeshA wrote:Rig Veda tells us about Arab horse, when it mentions a 34-ribbed horse.


In fact this too is in the same RV 1.162:18 - that is Book (Mandala) 1, Poem (Sukta) 162, verse number 18

The Rig Veda has 10,000 shlokas - each with perhaps 10 words. Out of 100,000 (probably more) words, horse is mentioned about 200 times. A huge big deal has been made out of that. Ass holes.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 12:31

Books by PIE-Charlatans


Image

Publication Date: October 19, 2009
Author: Ceisiwr Serith
Deep Ancestors: Practicing the Religion of the Proto-Indo-Europeans

Description
Through a combination of the linguistics of a reconstructed language, archaeology, and comparative mythology, Deep Ancestors breathes life into the ancient Proto-Indo-European culture and religion. Ceisiwr states "This book must be considered a report on a work in progress. As time goes by, new research will be done, new ideas and data presented, and old texts and archaeology reinterpreted. This will require changes in the beliefs and practices of reconstructed Proto-Indo-European religion. Consider this a process of progressive revelation, except that instead of coming from the gods it comes from scholars."

I consider it one of the most insidious projects being undertaken by Western religious thinkers. :evil:

Whereas even as many of us Indians are unaware of this AIT-assault on Indic identity, and some of us are busy refuting the very basis of AIT, AIT-Leeches have gone ahead and based on PIE created a new mythology with God names, etc. which are abominations of the names of the Vedic Gods!

Here is what Ceisiwr Serith writes on his webpage on how Rigvedic Gods are changed to some PIE Gods. Of course he contends it was the other way round.

Dyaus Pitar => Dyé̄us Pté̄r
Aryaman => Xáryomen
Parjanya => Perkwū́nos
Aśvins => Diwós Sunú
Agni => Xákwōm Népōt
Yama & Manu => Yemós and Mannus
Pūṣan => Pāxuson
Mḗnōt

Mādhavī => Héḱwonā
Govinda => Gwouwindā
Uṣas => Xáusōs
Sūryā => Sawélyosyo Dhugətḗr
Danu => Donu
Westyā
Dyavapṛthivī => Dhéǵhōm Mā́tr
Sarva => Kolyos

If one would just look at the page, one would see in the various references how many PIE-Charlatans are busy sucking the blood from Indian mythology and transfusing it into PIE religion. :evil:

They are manufacturing Deep Deep Roots for Belief among the People for AIT.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 12:55

shiv wrote:The Rig Veda has 10,000 shlokas - each with perhaps 10 words. Out of 100,000 (probably more) words, horse is mentioned about 200 times. A huge big deal has been made out of that. Ass holes.

shiv saar,

Horse is mentioned in Rig Veda in connection with Indra, Maruts, Asvins, and to a much lesser extent with Surya and Agni. I made a post on how many times the Maruts themselves are mentioned in the Rig Veda.

I have tried to speculate why the horse came to be connected to the Maruts, Indra and Surya.

I also see the role of the horse as limited to certain contexts in Rig Veda. We need to zero in on these contexts and explain them as well as provide theories on how they came about.

This should be done so that nobody can claim that the only reason horses are there in Rig Veda is because of a past memory from Central Asia, when the "Aryans were still roaming around there."

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dhiman » 22 Jul 2012 12:58

Not sure if this has already been posted. Three part lecture on "the collapse of Aryan Invasion Theory" on youtube given by Prof Nicholas Kazanas. I couldnt capture all of it, but two points that I found most interesting were that: Geneticists don't support AIT since all the genetic data is opposed to AIT (i.e no significant gene flow into India between 10,000 BC and 600 AD when the persian invasions started) and archeologists + geologists also don't support AIT, only Linguists (for reason I did not capture) and Left Wing politicians support AIT. Left Wingers support AIT because left-wingers throughout the world believe in the notion of recreating the society by wiping out the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyN0zs_tBRY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVwi_-Yzuo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcZ8yf2gXmo

Regarding horse, he says that number of horse skeletal remains did not go up after the supposed AIT event took place, so if Aryans came from outside and brought horses into India there is no archeological proof of that.
Last edited by Dhiman on 22 Jul 2012 13:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dhiman » 22 Jul 2012 13:13

RajeshA wrote:Dhiman ji,

Please allow me to reformulate that evidence.

Vedic Aryans were quite fond of horses. In fact other people among them Arabs used that fondness and had a roaring business going in supplying horses to the Vedic Aryans as far back as 6500 BCE.


A very likely and common-sense scenario, much more believable and verifiable given the IVC trade with middle-east than the fairy tale regarding horses being peddled by AIT supporters. Even an average fifth grader should be able to see through this horse shit. As I said earlier, these are delusions of pre-internet days which are unable to pass the scrutiny and easy accessibility that internet subjects facts to.

But as far as I can tell, the main AIT killer is that genetic evidence does not show any significant human gene migration into India between 10,000 BC and 600AD (when the Islamic invasions started). If Aryans did come into India from outside, there is no genetic, no archeological, and no geological record of it. Its an event that happened only in the minds of Linguists (the last remaining supporters of AIT) and left wing crowd who wish to reinvent society by ridding it of its past.

National Geographic has a nice animated map showing human migration in terms of genes. If there was an Aryan Invasion of India, it certainly doesn't register on this map. See: https://genographic.nationalgeographic. ... atlas.html

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 15:29

Dhiman ji,

Regarding the Horse, the AIT-Nazis propose a narrative

1) The pre-Rigvedic Aryans entered the Indian Subcontinent between 1500 BCE and 1200 BCE. They brought their horses and chariots along with them. These horse-driven chariots struck a terrible fear in the hearts of the Harappans at that time, something akin to a fear of terrifying Vedic Tanks. In the Rigveda, the Vedic Aryans have inserted their memories from earlier times when they were still in Central Asia. From Central Asia, they have their beliefs in the divinity of the Horse, and the Asvamedha Yagna.

For this all the AIT-Nazis provide as evidence is that in India the horse was not native, so it had to be from somewhere else, that is, it came from Central Asia with the Aryans.

We counter this with our own narrative. We say

2) Neither the Aryans came to India from Central Asia nor the Horse was brought along with them from there. Horses were known in India from before the times when the alleged Aryan Invasion is supposed to have taken place. Here are the horse bones from before that time. They may not be many but they are there. So there was no Aryan Invasion. All Indians are indigenous.

There is a strong weakness built into this position, we take!

  1. Considering our humid and hot climate, not many bones really survive to tell any tales. So we will have difficulty in finding that many bones.
  2. Many of our findings would be contested - the stratigraphy of the excavations was spoiled, the bones are of onagers and not of real horse, one can't determine whether the bones were of some domesticated horse due to lack of bit, the antique clay figures are not horses, the antique clay horses have no bridles, harnesses, the cave paintings cannot be dated correctly, etc.., and we will keep on fighting to assert our claims of a certain evidence.
  3. These assertions by us take place in the background of a general perception among paleozoologists that the Horse was not native to India. The only thing close to it was the Indian wild ass (khur).

So this is a very defensive strategy where the burden is always upon us to prove evidence to show something, whereas all the AIT-Nazis need to do is say they don't believe it, it is insufficient, it was tampered with, it is not conclusive, etc.

And basically we have only ourselves to blame if we have maneuvered ourselves into such a tight corner. If tomorrow they stand up and say, okay, Aryan Invasion happened not in 1500 BCE but rather in 2700 BCE, then what are we going to do? All our evidence which we may have collected with great efforts would be useless!

We should be building our narrative on completely different basis where the burden of proof does NOT lie on us. Any evidence that we find should bolster our case, but if we do not find it, it should make NO DIFFERENCE.

As such all the evidence from different fields that is out there - archaeology, literature, genetics, archaeoastronomy, geology, etc. would all help in making our case solid. Whereas all the evidence that is scanty like horse bones would give marginal impetus to our argument but its absence or scarcity would not break our scenario.

The requirements of the new narrative with respect to the horse should be:
a) Not based on Indian origin of the Horse.
b) Not based on abundance of horses in India.
c) Based on sufficient antiquity of knowledge of horse in India to explain the antiquity we assign our scriptures.
d) Should propose a theory of evolution of Rigvedic mythology which explains why the Horse was revered and came to be associated with Indra, Maruts, Asvins, Surya, Agni, as well as explains the Asvamedha Yagna.
e) Should deploy collected literary evidence in the Vedas and other fields in support of our claims for such a narrative.


3) Based on this criteria, I think the Horse Trade between pre-Harappan Vedic India and Arabia is a good solid theory. Of course everyone is invited to amend or extend the above list of criteria.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 17:06

Books by PIE-Charlatans

All these authors have been trying to convince their readers that there is such a thing as a religion of proto-Indo-European language speakers. There is nothing wrong with that. However where they go totally wrong is that they presuppose that Indo-Europeans were not from Indian Subcontinent, and thus were not Vedic Aryans or associated tribes. The names of the deities and the mythology is all based on Central Asian Aryan origin, which even as they take a lot from the Rig Vedic records, they still opt to change the names of the deities according to their PIE language preconceptions. So basically all the literature they are producing is being used to convince the readers that Aryans were not native to India but came from outside, and that Sanskrit is a foreign import. They are stealing the gold and garlands of Indian Gods and putting them on manufactured European Gods.


Image

Publication Date: 1995
Author: Thomas V. Gamkrelidze, Vjaceslav V. Ivanov
Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans: A Reconstruction and Historical Analysis of a Proto-Language and a Proto-Culture [@scribd]

Online Book!!! Too bad the important page 767 is missing! They postulate that Armenia was the original homeland. So these seem to be Georgians with their own agenda. Their contributions in the understanding of common flora and fauna of "Indo-Europeans" is well recognized.

Publication Date: 2002
Author: Peter Jackson
LIGHT FROM DISTANT ASTERISKS TOWARDS A DESCRIPTION OF THE INDO-EUROPEAN RELIGIOUS HERITAGE @Numen

(Difficult to obtain)


Image

Publication Date: February 9, 2009
Author: Martin Litchfield West
Indo-European Poetry and Myth

More on the Greek side


Image

Publication Date: 1897
Author: Arthur Anthony Macdonell
Vedic Mythology

Online Book!!!


Image

Publication Date: July 1985
Author: Jarich G. Oosten
The War of the Gods: The Social Code in Indo-European Mythology


Image

Publication Date: August 25, 2009
Author: Benjamin W. Fortson, IV
Indo-European Language and Culture: An Introduction [Amazon]

Again a lot of Central Asian Aryan Stuff but seems to have received good reviews.


Image

Publication Date: 1974
Author: Gerald James Larson, C. Scott Littleton, Jaan Puhvel
Myth in Indo-European Antiquity
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 17:14

Another journal where Robert Pearson had his fingers in play was Mankind Quarterly.

Code: Select all

http://www.mankindquarterly.org/

http://www.mankindquarterly.org/online.html


The journal is tainted by accusations of racism. But there are still PIE-Charlatans who cite articles from there, e.g. Ceisiwr Serith.

If you look at the Table of Contents of the various issues (2nd link), one will see articles like "Skin Color and IQ" :eek: Also many Indians seem to write for this journal!!!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 18:09

Tamil Language's Influence

A notable example of a word in worldwide use with Dravidian (not specifically Tamil) etymology is orange, via Sanskrit nāraṅga from a Dravidian predecessor of Tamil nartankāy "fragrant fruit".

Also
Bandana : from Sanskrit बन्धन bandhan, "a bond". From Tamil pantham "a bond",pathu "hold together, attachment", atta "hold tightly, a leech", ottu "stick", othu "bind together, make love"
---------

Now how did this word get into the Indo-European world?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 18:26

By E. F. K. Koerner
University of Ottawa
Linguistics and Ideology in the Study of Language


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