Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Dipanker
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dipanker » 22 Jul 2012 18:40

RajeshA wrote:Tamil Language's Influence

A notable example of a word in worldwide use with Dravidian (not specifically Tamil) etymology is orange, via Sanskrit nāraṅga from a Dravidian predecessor of Tamil nartankāy "fragrant fruit".

Also
Bandana : from Sanskrit बन्धन bandhan, "a bond". From Tamil pantham "a bond",pathu "hold together, attachment", atta "hold tightly, a leech", ottu "stick", othu "bind together, make love"
---------

Now how did this word get into the Indo-Europen world?



Orange in Spanish is 'naranja' almost identical to Sanskrit 'naranga' , presumably a word of Indo-Eurpoean origin and thus must have a equivalent PIE root ??

Pelt the Weasel with orange!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 22 Jul 2012 18:45

Dipanker wrote:Orange in Spanish is 'naranja' almost identical to Sanskrit 'naranga' , presumably a word of Indo-Eurpoean origin and thus must have a equivalent PIE root ??

Pelt the Weasel with orange!

:lol:

Always with rotten oranges, until he says that it is a Tamil word which through Sanskrit entered the Indo-European vocabulary, which proves India is the "Aryan" homeland!

History of Nartankāy (Orange)
Wikipedia wrote:The sweet orange does not occur in the wild. It is believed to have been first cultivated in southern China, northeastern India, or perhaps southeastern Asia (formerly Indochina).

The Persian orange, grown widely in southern Europe after its introduction to Italy in the 11th century, was bitter. It was used primarily for medicinal purposes.

Italian traders might have introduced it to the Mediterranean area after 1450. Portuguese navigators have also been credited with bringing orange trees to the Mediterranean region around 1500. After introduction of the sweet orange, it was quickly adopted as an edible fruit; it was so highly regarded that wealthy persons grew oranges in private conservatories, called orangeries. Certainly by 1646 it was well known in Europe.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dhiman » 22 Jul 2012 23:01

RajeshA wrote:And basically we have only ourselves to blame if we have maneuvered ourselves into such a tight corner. If tomorrow they stand up and say, okay, Aryan Invasion happened not in 1500 BCE but rather in 2700 BCE, then what are we going to do? All our evidence which we may have collected with great efforts would be useless!


The problem is that there is no genetic imprint of any significant migration into India for last 10,000 years except for persian invasions. So if there was an Aryan Invasion it certainly didn't happen in last 10,000 years. This whole AIT is a delusion or racist past just waiting to break down.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 00:22

Dhiman ji,

that is the whole surprising thing about AIT. It is running not on evidence but on the reputation and status of its proponents.

We have a very large number of academics and writers in the West who have established linguistic theories, PIE language, Central Eurasian landmass Urheimat, PIE-Religion, Race Supremacy narratives, etc. and all of them are scratching each other's backs. When these guys write a book on the topic, they juggle where can the Urheimat be: Anatolia, Pontic Steppes, BMAC, Kurgan, or is it Armenia? But none of them really consider Indian Subcontinent for one stupid reason or another! AIT may not have any evidence in its favor but it still has a very wide popular acceptance.

So if a few experts there change the date from 1500 BCE to 2700 BCE, many would fall in line without much protest and continue to build their cases with the new dates, but content-wise it will all remain the same!

So despite the 'unassailable' evidence in favor of Aryan Indigenism, it is still an uphill task to purge AIT.

What most readers, and I am not speaking about academicians and writers, want is simply a wholesome narrative, a nice story of how Aryans started from somewhere with their archaic religious practices and their archaic Indo-European language and spread throughout Eurasia. It is up to us, Indians, to provide the world just such a wholesome captivating narrative. Our fighting over horse-bones are not going to decide this fight. It is a propaganda issue.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 23 Jul 2012 04:25

RajeshA, there is none other than you who have taken deep interest here in collecting important data and links in this thread., of course many others have contributed. I would say, come up with a detailed document... that interests academicians and other writers.

Just thinking aloud.. or you could do something like how Dileep does with his spy stories.. create the write up, and post it.. people will read as you derive and drive.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 23 Jul 2012 08:18

Anyone heard of this? :D
Harvard Donkey Trial
Harvard Donkey Trial is another name for the CAPEEM lawsuit argued in a California court in the context questioning reliance on AIT theory in California Textbooks. A Harvard argument was that what was referred to as horse in ancient texts of India was in fact a donkey.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 23 Jul 2012 08:25

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article3670370.ece
Documentation is the first line of defence against the rogue insider.

The police recognise this, but lack of transparency in the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Department and resistance from temple orthodoxy has blocked any potential engagement between the custodians and scholars with documentation expertise.


I am beginning to think that there is a connection between authorities who prevent video and photography in temples and the rogues outsider in this idol smuggling network..

first thing is our temples should allow video and photography.

mandatory and must!

what is the guarantee that existing idols are not already fake!?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Pranav » 23 Jul 2012 08:39

SaiK wrote:RajeshA, there is none other than you who have taken deep interest here in collecting important data and links in this thread., of course many others have contributed. I would say, come up with a detailed document... that interests academicians and other writers.

Just thinking aloud.. or you could do something like how Dileep does with his spy stories.. create the write up, and post it.. people will read as you derive and drive.


Good idea. Perhaps collaboratively create an e-book using the free wiki facility at https://www.zoho.com/wiki/

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 23 Jul 2012 09:41

Sanskrit E-paper

http://sudharma.epapertoday.com/

(Sudharma requires some encouragements)

***

More about sudharma
http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/ ... d=tw-share
(Courtesy Kukreja-ji)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Jul 2012 11:47

words like bandana went into english from india during british rule period
someone posted an article on it recently on BRF

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 23 Jul 2012 11:52


RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 14:35

Lalmohan wrote:words like bandana went into english from india during british rule period
someone posted an article on it recently on BRF

Lalmohan ji,

the word for "bandhan" in German is "Bindung". "Bandhana" is "Binden". So it is not just English, where one finds this word.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Jul 2012 14:44

bindung and binding (in english) may come from the sanskrit root word via an anglo-saxon intermediary
bandhana to bandana is a more recent development

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 15:19

SaiK wrote:RajeshA, there is none other than you who have taken deep interest here in collecting important data and links in this thread., of course many others have contributed. I would say, come up with a detailed document... that interests academicians and other writers.

Just thinking aloud.. or you could do something like how Dileep does with his spy stories.. create the write up, and post it.. people will read as you derive and drive.

Saik ji,

Thanks for your vote of confidence. Sooner or later, I'll be writing something more detailed. At the moment I still think I have a lot to read and imbibe.

At the moment, my thoughts are somewhat on these lines.

The Europeans see Aryans as some sort of race purists, whereas in the lands where they are imagined in such a way - Germany, Britain, Netherlands, Scandinavia, these so-called Aryans happen to have the least purity among Indo-Europeans. Even among other peoples, the migrating Aryans mixed with various tribes on the way or at their destination. One can ascertain this from genetics as well as language.

In Germany, the invading Aryans (Indo-Europeans) mixed with the settled Battle-Axe people, the pre-Europeans, and today a third of all German words still of that origin. So where is the purity!

Racial Purity was NEVER the hallmark of Aryans! The hallmark of Aryans was always considering humanity as a single whole. The Aryans usually did not marry within their own gotra, but marrying outside was never an issue. So they married into other tribes, and the 'tribe' of the Aryans increased.

In the Indian Subcontinent, even though initially just the royal family of the Lunar Dynasty was considered 'Arya', today all of India is 'Arya', partly because of the great genetic churning that has gone on in India, and partly because of the sharing of Sanskriti and Sabhyata that has taken place among the people.

So basically all Aryans are 'impure', and there is no such thing as Aryan purity. Germans or Brits are racially just as impure as Aryans as say Indians, if not more.

Saik ji,

in most of those books on Aryans and their cultural practices written by Western writers, I am quite sure they haven't really included this adherence to the Gotra system.

That I think is another Aryan WMD that India possesses. :wink:

Think of imposing India's Gotra system onto all Europeans in the name of prehistoric Aryan practice. :)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 15:32

Lalmohan ji,

even though I would not discount it, but 'Bindung' is a very old word in German. In Swedish it is 'Bindning'. So I don't think it came to the Germanic people through English and that too after the British had come to India and learnt some Sanskrit/Hindi. The word is most probably from a much earlier use.

And if they say, in Tamil, one says 'pantham' - a bond, and experts are of the opinion that the word is originally Tamil, then this too is a clear case of a

Tamil -> Sanskrit -> Central Asian Indo-European -> Germanic migration.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Jul 2012 16:22

i think we are agreeing - binding comes from norse/old german - which may have come from PIE-ke-baap

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 16:51

In further genetic studies on ancestry, especially the Y-Chromosome-based ancestry, we should include the Gotra system. A great article.

Posted on Apr 26, 2011
By Gurudev
Science of Genetics behind the Hindu Gotra System – The Y Chromosome and the Male Lineage

Perhaps one would be able to find the Indic Gotras of Europeans based on this.

Off-Topic
For the readers of the above article, here is another article that is related.

Published on Feb 22, 2012
By Neil Bowdler
Male Y chromosome extinction theory challenged: BBC

Further Reading

Image

Translation: J. Brough
Author: Puruṣottama Paṇḍita
The Early Brahmanical System of Gotra and Pravara: a translation of the Gotrapravara-mãnjari

List of Rishis, Their known Gotra lineage @scribd

Rishis and Gothra: Rg Veda, Names of Composing Rishis, Families of Rishis @docstoc

A little pseudo-secular stand, but ...
Posted on May 11, 2011
By Hauma Hammidha
On Gotras
Last edited by RajeshA on 23 Jul 2012 20:21, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 23 Jul 2012 17:04

Murugan garu, thanks for bringing the plight of the newspaper to light, I for one will contact them and will do what I can, and also I will spread the word to my friends.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 17:13

I am putting up this link here, not to suggest we need Western praise in order to feel good about our heritage, but because it helps to clarify in a historical sense, how these important personalities related to India!

Publication Date: 2009 (1st Edition), April, 2011 (Fifth Edition)
By Salil Gewali
Great Minds on India

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 18:49

An old article with good comments

Posted on Jun 28, 2007
By Gurudev
The Myth of Aryan Invasion Theory

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 23 Jul 2012 19:24

Yes RajeshA, Gotra system can actually replace westernized varna misconceptions [including more western than westerners themselves of desh].

another wiki zone is here:
http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/Bharat-rakshak_Wiki

But I doubt you would get the right exposures.. now, this place can be transient stage while you derive, and take it more open public places once you have validated.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 21:00

A bit Off-Topic

This is just to show that before the British came to India and Macaulayized the whole country after which Indians think that they have education courtesy of Brits only, and all that the Brits say or said is of the highest golden quality of scientific thinking, objectivity and fairness, including the nonsense of AIT, there existed another system of Indian education beforehand in the 18th Century.

Dharampal collected much information from the British archives and put together a book on the education in the 18th century in India, called the Beautiful Tree. I am posting a link, but I don't know whether it is complete.

Publication Date: 1983
Author: Dharampal
The Beautiful Tree: Indigenous Indian Education in the Eighteenth Century

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 23 Jul 2012 22:14

Not sure this review was posted before, dated 2011:
"Did Austro-Asiatic speakers originate in China/ Southeast Asia and then migrate to India with Rice Agriculture"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/100833462/493 ... s-of-India

When HUGO Pan-Asian SNP Consortium published results of its very large study of autosomal SNPs involving 73 populations living in ten Asian countries, it became clear that it had sorted out the question of human migration in the east.1 They found that East Asian populations originated from Southeast Asia, and that Myanmar, Borneo, Thailand and Cambodia were important as a source of human population to China. It further clarified that Southeast Asian population had in turn originated from India. Five percent of East Asian population had originated from India directly, implying an exit out of India from Tibet-Burma side directly into China. They also noted overlap of DNA migrations and language. From the conclusions of this study, it became evident without saying that the Austro-Asiatic, Daic and Austronesian speakers of Southeast Asia had originated genetically, if not linguistically, from India and that the claim of their origin from China was false.


The results of HUGO reversed the route of human migration proposed by linguists like Blust, and promoted by archaeologists like Bellwood and Higham, which had suggested that language and farming migration took place from China to Southeast Asia to India and Polynesia/Micronesia. This imagination was contradicted by a large number of other DNA studies other than HUGO’s. Yet Bellwood and Higham pervaded over the authors of the study done by Chaubey et al.


his China hypothesis had stated that farming reached Taiwan from China, and then there was a Taiwanese population expansion leading to Austronesian expansion, which led to founder populations settling in Indonesia, Malagasy and Pacific Islands. This theory too got discredited by DNA studies soon.


Has reference to many papers to the following topics:
1. Human Migration Took Place from Southeast Asia to China and not the Vice Versa during the Period Under Consideration
2. Studies Destroying Bellwood’s Taiwan Austronesian and rice-agriculture Hypothesis
3. Autosomal DNA studies too point out that the Austro-Asiatic speakers are autochthonous to India and the Southeast Asians originated from India
4. Rice Cultivation started independently in India (O. sativa indica) and Southeast Asia (O. sativa japonica)
5. Wild Ancestors of Chinese Rice are mainly found in India and Southeast Asia
6. Japonica Rice (Chinese Rice) did not originate in South China, but originated in the Island Southeast Asia where it was domesticated too: Chinese rice domestication is a myth
7. Wild Indian rice has greatest genetic diversity of all rices
8. Genes Crucial for domestication originated in Indian rice and migrated later to China, then entered Japonica rice (by cross pollination)
9. Evidence of 10,000 years old Radio-Carbon dated Pottery Neolithic rice farming sites from Ganga Valley (India)
a. Tewari, Rakesh et al, Early Farming at Lahuradewa, Pragdhara 2006,18:347-373.
b. Sharma GR. 1985. From Hunting and Food-gathering to Domestication of Plants and Animals in the Belan and Ganga Valleys. In Recent Advances in Indo-Pacific Prehistory : Proceedings of the International Symposium Held at Poona, December 19-21, 1978 (ed. VN Misra and P Bellwood). BRILL (Pub.).
10. Linguistic Evidence Suggesting Origin of Austro-Asiatic in India
a. Diffloth, G., “The Contribution of Linguistic Palaeontology to the Homeland of Austro-Asiatic”, in Sagart, L. et al (Eds.), The Peopling of East Asia, Routledge, London, 2005. [The homeland of Austro-Asiatic suggested by Diffloth spreads from northeast India and Bangladesh to north Myanmar.].
b. Priyadarshi, P., Recent Studies in Indian Archaeo-linguistics and Archaeo-genetics having bearing on Indian Prehistory, Joint Annual Conference of Indian Archaeology Society, Indian Society for Prehistoric and Quaternary Studies, Indian History and Culture Society, Lucknow, 30 December, 2010.7

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 22:23

Books by PIE-Charlatans

This is a very interesting book. Please do look inside. It sort of maps most of the European fairy tales we hear about all the way back to their Hindu sources (though the author may not concede the latter to be the main source).

ImageImage

Publication Date: 1878 (1st Edition), 20. Juli 2006
Author: John Thackray Bunce
a patron of Birmingham Museum & Art Gallery and editor of the Birmingham Post
Fairy Tales, Their Origin and Meaning [Project Gutenberg] [Internet Archive] Online Book!

Chapter 1, Page 14
As to when the Aryans lived we know nothing, but that it was thousands of years ago, long before history began. As to the kind of people they were we know nothing in a direct way. They have left no traces of themselves in buildings, or weapons, or enduring records of any kind. There are no ruins of their temples or tombs, no pottery - which often helps to throw light upon ancient peoples - no carvings upon rocks or stones. It is only by the remains of their language that we can trace them; and we do this through the sacred books of the Hindus and Persians - the Vedas and the Zend Avesta - in which remains of their language are found, and by means of which, therefore, we get to know something about their dwelling-place, their manners, their customs, their religion, and their legends - the source and origin of our Fairy Tales.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 22:31

venug ji,

so we have always been SDRiceEating! :D

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 23 Jul 2012 22:44

Rajesh garu, I completely agree, once a SDRE, always a SDRE :).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 22:58

Here the author is trying to recapitulate various discussions in Seminars on the historicity of the alleged Aryan-Dravidian Divide!

By M.D.Raghavan
The Dravidian Problem

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jul 2012 23:14


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 24 Jul 2012 00:17

Wish we had our own Mullers and Witzels who claim Europeans to be Indian slaves ;) driven out of Caucasian mountains by horse riding Indians speaking Sanskrit and drinking soma (RAIT - > reverse AIT, only this time actual aryans would be doing that, to Europeans it is dream come true). I guess TSPians are doing that to Europeans now, soon they will be flying their half moon flag on Londonistan...history is a bitch....it bites you in the arse for no reason.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 24 Jul 2012 06:37

why don't we list out all those core aspects that AIT nazis are driving at.. let us have abstractions or frame abstractions from concrete facts., traceable either way. that way, we can have some objectives laid out as drivers and motivation factors.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 24 Jul 2012 09:49

Please download, read and chew on it. Subhash Kak has no AIT axe to grind and is an SDRE. This is one of the most brief and lucid expositions I have read
http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifa ... milies.pdf
The Indian linguistic evidence requires the postulation of two kinds of
classification. The first is the traditional Indian classification where
the whole of India is a single linguistic area of what used to be tra-
ditionally called the Prakrit family. Linguists agree that based on
certain structural relationships the North and the South Indian lan-
guages are closer than Sanskrit and Greek
(Emeneau, 1980).
Second, we have a division between the North Indian languages
that should really be called North Prakrit (called Indo-Aryan by the
linguists) and the South Indian languages that may be called South
Prakrit (or Dravidian) (Figure 2).
There is also the Indo-European family to which the North Prakrit
languages belong. Likewise, Dravidian has been assumed to belong
to a larger family of agglutinative languages.

This classification will allow us to get rid of the term Aryan in
the classification of languages which is a good thing because of the
racist connotation behind its 19th century use. Its further virtue is
that it recognizes that language families cannot be exclusive systems
and they should be perceived as overlapping circles that expand and
shrink with time.

<snip>

the only logical resolution of all the archaeological and
textual evidence is to assume that the Indic area became a single
cultural area at least around 5000 BC.
The Indian civilization was
created by the speakers of many languages but the language of the
earliest surviving literary expression was Vedic Sanskrit, that is itself
connected to both the North and the South Prakrit languages.
This idea is supported not only by the internal evidence that
shows that the Indic tradition from 7000 BC onwards is an indige-
nous affair, but also from the new analysis of ancient art (Kak, in
press). For example, David Napier (in press) shows how the forehead
markings of the Gorgon and the single-eye of the cyclops in Greek
art are Indian elements. Although he suggests that this may have
been a byproduct of the interaction with the Indian foot soldiers who
fought for the Persian armies, he doesn’t fail to mention the more
likely possibility that the influence was through the 2nd millennium
BC South Indian traders in Greece. This is supported by the fact
that the name of the Mycenaean Greek city Tiryns — the place where
the most ancient monuments of Greece are to be found— is the same
as that of the most powerful Tamilian sea-faring people called the
Tirayans.





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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 24 Jul 2012 11:09

The problem is that there is no genetic imprint of any significant migration into India for last 10,000 years except for persian invasions. So if there was an Aryan Invasion it certainly didn't happen in last 10,000 years. This whole AIT is a delusion or racist past just waiting to break down.


Were there genetic changes in last few thousand years in Europe?

If there was no genetic imprint of migration into India for last 10K years then there might be vice versa?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 12:04

SaiK wrote:why don't we list out all those core aspects that AIT nazis are driving at.. let us have abstractions or frame abstractions from concrete facts., traceable either way. that way, we can have some objectives laid out as drivers and motivation factors.


Saik ji,

from my deliberations with ManishH ji, I was made to understand that the only three issues that stops India being considered as PIE-Urheimat with the academicians is:
  1. one-way palatalization of front vowels, and
  2. Rig-Vedic Mandala chronology
  3. paucity of horse in India even though the Vedas has numerous praises of the horse pointing at an earlier memory.

I mentioned these AIT claims in an earlier post as well.

1) The first argument is based on nothing other that linguistic models created by them only. Anyway it seems brihaspati ji with his contacts would be working on that issue.

While staying with their linguistic model, I had proposed a different scenario which allows for OIT. It is based on this what Koenraad Elst mentioned.
Koenraad Elst wrote:Moreover, Indian scholars have pointed out that the discovery of a small and extinct kentum language inside India (Proto-Bangani, with koto as its word for "hundred"), surviving as a sizable substratum in the Himalayan language Bangani, tends to support the hypothesis that the older kentum form was originally present in India as well. This discovery had been made by the German linguist Claus Peter Zoller, who does not explain it through an Indian Urheimat Theory but as a left-over of a pre-Vedic Indo-European immigration into India. He claims that the local people have a tradition of their immigration from Afghanistan.

However, in a recent survey among Bangani speakers, George van Driem (Netherlands) and Suhnu R. Sharma have found the hypothesis of a kentum Proto-Bangani to be erroneous: the supposed kentum words turned out to be misreadings of quite ordinary modern Bangani words or phrases. Then again, an even more recent survey on the spot by Anvita Abbi (Jawaharlal Nehru University) and her students has almost entirely confirmed Zoller's list of kentum substratum words in Bangani.12 As the trite phrase goes: this calls for more research.


I said:

I wrote:Let's say the Druhyu language was Centum and not Satem. When Yayati distributed his kingdoms among the five sons: Yadu, Turvasu, Druhyu, Anu and Puru; Druhyu set up their kingdom in the West - in Sapta-Sindhu, Punjab. Later on they were pushed towards Afghanistan, and Anus moved in into Sapta-Sindhu.

When the Druhyus moved into Afghanistan, their language developed as Centum proto-Sanskrit. Most of the Druhyu tribes moved on northwards into Central Asia and the Uttara-Kurus (Tocharians) moved west into present Xinjiang. But for a long time these tribes were in Afghanistan.

It could well be that the proto-Banganis stayed back in Afghanistan and eventually moved back into India proper.

The point is after some time in Afghanistan, the Druhyus were not speaking Sanskrit with Satem phonetics but rather a quite similar language with Centum phonetics.

So the Proto-Indo-European language happened to be in India, but it would have been definitely very different than what they have come up with.


2) Sometimes the AIT-Nazis refer to the Mandala structure of the Rig Veda and say it shows a people's migration from the West to the East. However Shrikant Talageri has more than conclusively debunked this. AIT-Nazis point to an earlier analysis by Hermann Oldenberg, which suggested a different chronology of the Mandalas of Rig Veda, according to which there is a West to East movement. Again brihaspati ji wanted to look into this, but Shrikant Talageri has produced a much stronger analysis than this earlier 19th century haphazard German analysis.

3) About debunking the whole horse requirement, I have written a bit earlier [1] [2] [3] how we can go about it.

I proposed a hypothesis how to explain these two aspects:
  1. Procurement of Horses by Vedic Aryans and
  2. Divinity of Horse among Vedic Aryans.

Other than these the AIT-Nazis have no arguments, and even these are really weak. What they instead use is
  1. the India-blindness strategy,
  2. the demonization strategy (Hindu fundamentalists, Hindutva, etc), as well as
  3. the pooh-pooh rhetoric - "Oh my God, how unthinkable, how hilarious these suggestions".

RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 13:49

Furthermore, the strategies the AIT-Nazis use to establish their theories are
  1. Progressive degeneration of the uncertainty in claims
    1. tentative suggestions in books,
    2. references to works with these suggestions,
    3. outright claims based on these references
  2. Multiple propaganda arms
    1. comparative-historical linguists, Indologists, Sanskritists, all settled in prestigious education institutes in a network spanning continents [AIT-Nazis],
    2. book writers and broadcasting media, all producing supportive material in cohort, all showing AIT with full force of conviction [AIT-Propagandists],
    3. PIE-Religion Charlatans who preach a totally manufactured theories on Aryan Religion based on Hindu material but European prejudices in narrative and thematic focus [PIE-Charlatans],
    4. White Supremacist groups in Europe, America, and elsewhere [White-Supremacists]
  3. Across-the-board Domination in World Media and Education,
    1. English Language
    2. Aid Programs, Scholarships, Tons of West-sponsored Scientific Journals
    3. International Newspapers and Magazines, Tons of Published Books and Works
    4. Discovery Channel, History Channel, National Geographic, and tons of other "Science" Documentary Programs, made in multiple countries in West and elsewhere
  4. Control over India
    1. Marxist and Macaulayized academicians, historians in India, all bribed through scholarships, PhDs, international conferences, prestigious journals, etc. [AIT-Sepoy Ideologues]
    2. Newspapers and TV Channels owned partly or in whole by foreign investors, using compromised journalists [AIT-Sepoy Propagandists],
    3. Pseudo-Secular polity in India, kept in rein through Christianist, Dravidianist, Dalitist and Islamist pressure groups [AIT-Sepoy Mercenaries]

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 15:47

Hindutvadis Do/Did Not Support Nazis: Answering The Historical Accusation

There have been efforts by some to claim Hindu influence on Nazis as well as support among Indians for Nazis in WWII. This is rubbish. The following article underlines this.

Continuing from our dissection of the role of Savitri Devi as mentioned earlier by me. [1] [2] [3] [4]

Published on Oct 19, 2005
By Dr Koenraad Elst
The eternal return of Nazi nonsense: Savitri Devi's last writings

Conclusions:
1) German Nationalist movement was not a Pan-Aryan Movement
2) Nazi embrace of Paganism and Heathendom is exaggerated.
3) Nazi occultism was marginal.
4) Hinduism did not have any influence over the Nazi Movement.
4) Savitri Devi exaggerated the influence of the above factors in the Nazi Movement, when she makes her appeal to Neo-Nazi groups.
5) Gangadhar Tilak, was overly influenced by Aryan theories of the Germans, when he wrote whose "The Arctic Home in the Vedas", which has been used by Savitri Devi as supporting AIT - So circular argumentation!
6) much more... read for yourself in case interested.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 16:13

shiv saar,

There are others, but I find Subhash Kak and Shrikant Talageri really path-breaking writers, because they are not just refuting AIT, no, they are in fact creating a whole new way of approaching Indian history.

1) Shrikant Talageri has in fact proven that Vedism moved East to West in Rig Veda. In fact with this work, I consider him to having broken the intellectual back of AIT and provided a path of reconciling Indian Indigenism and Indo-European language proliferation. I am however not in agreement with him as far as absolute chronology is concerned.

Code: Select all

Early period  – Books 6,3,7 early 1:       3400 – 2600 BCE;
Middle period – Books 4,2, middle 1:       2600 – 2200 BCE;
Late period   – Books 5,8,9,10, rest of 1: 2200 – 1400 BCE.


This I have from a review of his book - The Rig Veda and The Avesta: The Final Evidence (2008).

By S. Kalyanaraman
Hindu civilizational continuum-- linguistic, textual and limited archaeological evidences

2) Subhash Kak on the other hand is simply marvelous in the way he provides the astronomical and natural basis of Vedic philosophy. One can understand the symbology of the various yagnas and how they map the cosmological to the ritual.

3) Sri Aurobindo is another great thinker who makes it possible to understand the Vedas in the metaphysical and spiritual sense.

These thinkers together provide a much better way of appreciating the Vedas in the historical sense, and thus unraveling the issue of Aryas.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 19:14

shiv saar,

You had taken interest in the Asvamedha Yagna and written a post on it.

In this connection I had put up a useful link to Subhash Kak's book 'The Aśvamedha: The Rite and its Logic'.

Here is a direct link to a pdf of it online!

Publication Date: April, 2001
By Subhash Kak
The Aśvamedha: The Rite and its Logic

One interesting quote from the book, which may be of interest to you is

Page 16
The dangers of misreading a highly symbolic language were recognized. The Purāṇas warn that the asuras copy whatever the devas do, and do it to a grander scale.


So basically if somebody in Sintashta sacrificed a horse, then it was the Asuras, who did not really use to understand the Aśvamedha Yajña! :P
---------------

Earlier I had made a post on how to understand Aśva

RajeshA wrote:The Horse Hypothesis


Why is the Horse called Aśvaḥ?

Earlier I proposed that the horse got his name from the Sun!

In Punjabi we have a word - svah! Svah means ash, raakh! It is used for ash because ash is something that has been put out, its whole energy has been used up.

So A-svah would be the opposite of svah, something whose energy cannot be used up, something that is always energized, full of energy, lit up, something that can run and run and run.

As I said earlier, the Indians were very much impressed with Arabian horses. They saw how they could run on and on and on for long distances. They saw how full of energy these horses were. That is why they were "A-svah". They were Aśvaḥ, just like the Sun!

So much so that we still measure power in the form of "horse-power"!

And so the Horse became the Sun! And as Sun was a deity, so the Horse too became an object of reverence!

And because the Horse is revered in Indian tradition, AIT-Nazis start suggesting that Vedic Aryans should have originated in a place where the horse was native - in the Steppes.

Neither the Aryans came from the Steppes, nor the Horse came from the Steppes, nor the Svah (language) came from the Steppes, nor the Aśvaḥ came from the Steppes!


In this connection, I feel even further confirmed.

If one were to consider Punjabi word "svah" as ashes, then it can also means something that has stopped, that is devoid of energy to continue.

So the opposite of that Asvah or Aśva would mean something that is always full of energy, like the Sun, but also something that is always running - Time.

So Time is also Aśva!

In his paper/book, Subhash Kak says

Page 2
The Vedic view acknowledges that all creation is interdependent. It is asserted that ayam atma brahma, the Atman contains the entire universe. Likewise, the body has within it all creatures. Of the principal animals conceived within the body, the horse represents time. The horse-sacri ce is then the most mystical and powerful, because it touches upon the mystery of time, which carries within it the secret of immortality.

The sacri ce of the animals is the enactment of the killing of the mortal lower self for a transformation into the immortal higher self. Since the higher self cannot manifest itself without the lower one, one must settle for something less, a ritual rebirth of the individual. In other words, sacri ce deals with mastery of time.

From here, the next step is the cause of time, or the Sun. The Ṛgveda (1.163.2) says that the horse is symbolic of the Sun. In VS 11.12 it is said of the horse, In heaven is your highest birth, in air your navel, on earth your home." Here the horse is being symbolized by the sacri cial re. SB 13.3.3.3 says that Asvamedha is the Sun, while SB 11.2.5.4 says that it is to be done year after year. Asva also means the horse, so it is the horse sacrifice for the courser in the skies.

Page 3
It may be that asva was a primary name for the Sun that was later applied to the horse.

Page 7
The Asvamedha rite has several functions:
(i) It presents an equivalence of the nakṣatra year to the heaven, implying that it is a rite that celebrates the rebirth of the Sun;
(ii) it is symbolic of the conquest of Time by the king, in whose name the rite is performed;
(iii) it is a celebration of social harmony achieved by the transcendence of the fundamental conflicts between various sources of power. Numbers from another Vedic rite, the Agnicayana, help in the understanding of several of its details.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 20:07

Published on Feb 21, 2009
By Subhash Kak
Time, Space and Structure in Ancient India

Subhash Kak analyses the proportions of the structures found in Dholavira. He writes
Conclusions
The aim of this essay is to show continuity from the Sindhu-Sarasvati phase of the third millennium BC to the historic period in the ideas of tripartite division and of recursion. Dholavira presents a general plan of the city in terms of its three divisions where the proportions are defined recursively and in ratios that are also to be found in the Vedic temple. It is likely that the notion of the equivalence of the microcosm and the macrocosm, which is at the heart of the tripartite division and recursion in the Vedic period, had currency in the Sindhu-Sarasvati phase.

More specifically, we find the use of the same unit of length (dhanus) with its 108 parts both in the Sindhu-Sarasvati and the historic periods. The use of a scale with 108 divisions is significant because it reflects fundamental ideas related to the nature of the cosmos. This parallel, by itself, could be a coincidence, but when viewed together with the continuity in religion, art, and architecture, it demonstrates a common vision of the universe.


Dholavira dates from 2650 BCE. Perhaps one needs to look at Arkaim and other "Aryan" places found in Russia and use these measurements to analyze their structures.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 22:36

Publication Date: August 2004
By Subhash Kak
The Vedic Gods of Japan

Just check the language changes in some names. Not all would be cognates.

Homa (Vedic Fire Rite) => Goma

Vināyaka (Ganesha) => Kangitan

Samaya vow (Vow of Secrecy) => Sammaya-kai

Guardians of All Directions

Brahman (Heaven) => Bon, Bonten

Indra (East) => Taishaku, Taishakuten

Agni (SE) => Ka

Yama (South) => Emma

Nairṛti, Rākṣasa (SW) => Rasatsu

Varuṇa (West) => Sui; Sui-ten is literally water-deva

Marut, Vāyu (NW) => Fu

Kubera, Vaiśravaṇa (North) => Bishamon; He is said to live halfway down the north side of Mount Sumeru; he and is accompanied by the Yasha (Yakṣa) and Rasetsu (Rākṣasa).

Īśāna (NE) => Ishana; Another name of Śiva

Sūrya, Āditya (Sun) => Nit

Candra (Moon) => Gat

Pṛthivī (Earth) => Ji; guards downward direction

Spiritual States
Deva => Tenbu

Nāga => Ryu

Yakṣa => Yasha

Gandharva => Kendatsuba

Asura => Ashura

Garuḍa => Karura

Kinnara => Kinnara

Mahoraga => Magoraka

Mahākāla => Daikokuten

Lakṣmī => Kichijoten or Kisshouten

Sarasvatī => Benzaiten

The Twelve Yakṣas => Juni-shinsho

Vikarāla => Bikyara Taisho
Catura => Shotora Taisho
Sindūra => Shindara Taisho
Mahoraga => Makora Taisho or Makura
Pajra => Haira Taisho
Indra => Indara Taisho
Śāṇdilya => Sanchira Taisho
Anila => Anira Taisho
Andira => Anchira
Mihira => Mekira
Vajra => Basara Taisho or Bajira
Kumbhira => Kubira Taisho

----------------

Now this is really a good sample for name changes, and it is something I talked about earlier with coincidentally using Japanese as the example. [1] [2] [3]

Some of the above names are cognates have obviously changed in pronunciation due to the Japanese articulation which forms the linguistic substrate for these names.

My initial argument was that words change when borrowed into a language based on the articulation and articulation capacity of the people doing the borrowing. Similarly when words from Sanskrit or North Prakrit began being used by all the tribes in Central Asia when they borrowed from 'Aryans' migrating out of India, these words changed, and these words changed dependent on the tribes whom those Aryans met on the way! The AIT Linguists are too narrow minded when they postulate these sound changing axioms.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 24 Jul 2012 22:46

RajeshA wrote:Furthermore, the strategies the AIT-Nazis use to establish their theories are
  1. Progressive degeneration of the uncertainty in claims
    1. tentative suggestions in books,
    2. references to works with these suggestions,
    3. outright claims based on these references
  2. Multiple propaganda arms
    1. comparative-historical linguists, Indologists, Sanskritists, all settled in prestigious education institutes in a network spanning continents [AIT-Nazis],
    2. book writers and broadcasting media, all producing supportive material in cohort, all showing AIT with full force of conviction [AIT-Propagandists],
    3. PIE-Religion Charlatans who preach a totally manufactured theories on Aryan Religion based on Hindu material but European prejudices in narrative and thematic focus [PIE-Charlatans],
    4. White Supremacist groups in Europe, America, and elsewhere [White-Supremacists]
  3. Across-the-board Domination in World Media and Education,
    1. English Language
    2. Aid Programs, Scholarships, Tons of West-sponsored Scientific Journals
    3. International Newspapers and Magazines, Tons of Published Books and Works
    4. Discovery Channel, History Channel, National Geographic, and tons of other "Science" Documentary Programs, made in multiple countries in West and elsewhere
  4. Control over India
    1. Marxist and Macaulayized academicians, historians in India, all bribed through scholarships, PhDs, international conferences, prestigious journals, etc. [AIT-Sepoy Ideologues]
    2. Newspapers and TV Channels owned partly or in whole by foreign investors, using compromised journalists [AIT-Sepoy Propagandists],
    3. Pseudo-Secular polity in India, kept in rein through Christianist, Dravidianist, Dalitist and Islamist pressure groups [AIT-Sepoy Mercenaries]


THis is good. Also add Pakistan and the Oil money is making sure that Indian history does not come out to the mainstream.

Pak lobby is pushing the Mughal history and negating India inside US and using the US global media


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