Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 24 Jul 2012 22:56

TSP is hoping for AIT. That way they can reconcile Islamic invaders and plunderers by saying that Upper caste Indians themselves are invaders who plundered India and subjugated Dravidians, AIT is a ruse for them, hence there is nothing wrong in islamic invaders meting the same fate to Hindus.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 23:03

venug ji,

that is correct. That is why I am in favor of not just ensuring that Indians believe in Indian Indigenism or OIT, but that the whole civilized world comes to that opinion! If the West agrees to OIT, it would be difficult for Pakistanis who always take their cue from the West on such matters to continue with such propaganda as you speak of.

Genetic tests showing 97% of Pakistanis to be of native origin as well as heightened global general knowledge about the accomplishments of the ancient Indians in terms of astronomy, mathematics, philosophy, architecture, metallurgy, ship-building and ship-faring, etc. are going to also make the Pakistanis rethink about their current identity!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 23:05

Acharya garu,

serious money and organized effort is needed to upturn the apple cart of the AIT-Nazis and their Paki freeloaders.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 24 Jul 2012 23:15

Rajesh garu,

I have seen Vishnu Som from NDTV post in mil forum, if only people like him who have real means of influencing thought process of many actually propose to make a documentary telling the truth behind this AIT. If only such people can help, kahan gaye wah log who can do great service to the nation in this matter?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jul 2012 23:23

Published on Feb 02, 2008
By Subhash Kak
Greek and Indian Cosmology: Review of Early History

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 24 Jul 2012 23:47

^^err.. not many would buy that. he was biased on gripen, and went beyond any logical thinking to support it. what makes such motives? /ot

bottom: if you want to do it, none other than you should do it. all it takes is a nice edit, hire some young kaalij kid who can help, and tube it up.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 24 Jul 2012 23:56

:) Saik garu, I agree, the reason I proposed him is that he still has mass appeal which many lack, an authoritative media outlet like NDTV broadcasting the documentary is different from a narration from a guy who is not known to anyone, who would even believe or care what I say? If not him someone else who has an appeal who has the means of reaching to the public, just an idea...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Multatuli » 25 Jul 2012 04:17

Murugan wrote:

Look who is talking on Arya, Sanskrit and Swastik, AIT, AMT

1 Hour video but interesting nevertheless


http://beingdifferentbook.com/vedic-culture-center//

Muragan ji, thank you for posting that link, I have watched it and I am elated. Rajiv Malhotra is someone with focus, he has a clear understanding of what the threats are to India and her civilization and does not beat about the bush. He also has a clear strategy and vision for how to counter attack those who want to break up India and erase it's civilization. We need thousand of such intellectual warriors. In any case, those of us who consider themself as followers of a Dharmic path need to support his efforts.

I will try do download that video and distribute it to others on CD/DVD/other media. I will also buy 2 copies of his latest books, one for me and one copy for my brother.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 25 Jul 2012 17:01

Going Back to Basics

Lately, I have been trying to deconstruct this infrastructure of the Aryan Invasion Theory.

Copying something I wrote earlier:
RajeshA wrote:The Europeans have tied one end of the rope around their torsos and the other end around ours through the linguistic similarities between European and Indic languages. Moreover both Europeans and Indics stand on small boats, with deep waters portending cultural destruction between us.

Knowing this over 200 years the Europeans having been pulling at the rope, making it tighter around themselves, and so on. With time we Indics have been losing our balance, with the danger of kipping over the edge.

It is time to pull back! The rope cannot be cut anymore. All we can do is pull harder. For that we need a lot of Indian "Out-of-India" scholars. :wink:


I proposed earlier that one strategy for achieving that would be to find Tamil substrate in Sanskrit.
RajeshA wrote:The thing is Indo-European proponents have carefully ensured that on the Indian side, besides a little talk of Sanskrit having a little Dravidian-"substratum", there is no real anchor for Sanskrit. This allows the AIT-guys to pull Sanskrit into Central Asian Urheimat narrative.

What we need is a strong anchor for Sanskrit within the Indian Subcontinent itself. Tamil can give Sanskrit just such an anchor.

If we take the boat example again, if beside the rope tied around Sanskrit's torso which is pulling Sanskrit forward into the Central Asian Urheimat vortex, if we were to tie another rope with one end around Sanskrit and another around Tamil, giving it an additional anchor then in this tug-of-war, the Europeans would lose.

Added Later: One could consider Tamil as the mast of the Indic boat in which Sanskrit stands but is being pulled out of it by the AIT crowd. Tying Sanskrit to mast would preclude that Sanskrit falls out.


But this is all defensive!

It is time to break the egg of Western Narrative and make an omelette of it!

When we speak of the West, let me lay the focus on Germanic people (Teutons/Goths). Today one calls them English, Germans, Dutch, Flemish, Swedes, Norwegian, Danes, Austrians, and various migrants from them into the New World.

We have seen how Western-sponsored Postmodernists have tried to deconstruct, mischaracterize and thus trivialize and even demonize Hindu scriptures. Basically these culture-rapists have been encouraged by Christianists because their activities prepare the ground for a proselytization offensive, as it creates doubts, confusion, and shame among Hindus.

I say this, not because that is the topic here, but to throw light on a more abstract procedure - cutting the umbilical cord between people and their sense of identity and belonging! If that what the Hindu considers fundamental to his being, his moral compass, his Dharma, based on eons of intellectual and itihaasic deliberations in his scriptures, is attacked and denigrated, then he loses his direction, his identity.

But the question is what holds the West together? Where does West's umbilical cord lead to? If West is the demon, where is the Mainá in which the demon's life force resides? [story]

West's sense of identity comes not really from any land, after all they were migrants in Europe, they were migrants in America, they were migrants in Australia! Also the identity is not really fixed to Christ and Christianity, despite our assumptions that that is what makes the West tick, based on our own religiosity, or their own religious efforts to undermine it! It is not land and it is not religion! One can speak of various cultural movements which contributed to firming up West's sense of being - Renaissance, Reformation, Enlightenment, Industrialization, Marxism, Scientific Revolution, Information Revolution, Globalization, etc. There have also been efforts to define the West over value systems - like Freedom, Democracy, Rule of Law, Free Market, and even Movements of Equality, Preservation of Nature, etc.

My theory is that that is not where West's life-force resides. All the above are undertakings to raise the spirit and profile of the West, first of all in their own eyes - to improve on oneself and thus to feel good about oneself. But that too is superficial. I would contend that at some level the Westerners still define themselves over their skin color and from the above mentioned endeavors are convinced of the superiority of their race based on skin color.

But skin color is not just appearance, for otherwise every albino may apply, nor would anybody want to tan their skins. Skin color also has a story. And for that story they try to reach back into the distant past and recreate a history for it!

And that history of their race revolves around Aryan blood and the Norse tales.

Aryan history is still up in air and would be tugged at, by them and by us, as we are doing here! But considering how they, the AIT-Nazis, have tried to undermine our scriptures by attacking their Divinity and Dharmic message, why should we leave their Norse tales alone?

If we want to take the fight to the enemy, we need to take possession of the Norse tales and claim Odin and Thor as Indians and fix the geography of the Edda, the Norse tales in India.

Then the OIT would be perfect. That would ultimately be the twisting the knife the AIT-Nazis deserve!

So I am starting a new thread in GDF to explore the 'Edda' having an Indian Adda!

I hope many here would participate in this project to show that the Norse Mythology has its origins in India. I still do not have the required knowledge to undertake this, but I will give it a try.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 25 Jul 2012 18:48

Here is what Wikipedia says about Man

The English term "man" is derived from Old English mann, which is ultimately derived from the Indian name Manu. The Old English form had a default meaning of "adult male" (which was the exclusive meaning of "wer"), though it could signify a person of unspecified gender. The closely related "man" was used just as it is in Modern German to designate "one" (e.g., as in the saying Man muss mit den Wölfen heulen). The Old English form is derived from Proto-Germanic *mannaz, "persona", which is also the etonym of German Mann "man, husband" and man "one" (pronoun), Old Norse maðr, and Gothic manna. According to Tacitus, the mythological progenitor of the Germanic tribes was called Mannus. The Germanic form is derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *manu-s "man, person", which in turn is derived from the Indian name Manu, mythological progenitor of the Hindus.

-------

How can Proto-Indo-European *manu-s be derived from Indian name Manu? Shouldn't it be the other way round? Hain ji?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 25 Jul 2012 19:29

The truth got slipped away.

For the Europeans and the westerners they had created this myth that PIE is the oldest and sanskrit is dying.

And in the west they have been giving a false picture of the IE language and PIE>

Very convenient and they could get away with this since Indians were not aware of this.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 25 Jul 2012 19:37

RajeshA wrote:Acharya garu,

serious money and organized effort is needed to upturn the apple cart of the AIT-Nazis and their Paki freeloaders.


First a sufficient critical mass of *educated* Indians should come to this awareness and truth.
They cannot be bought by flattery or money to support the western narratives. This is basic minimum we need from the Indian elite. Otherwise Indians will be considered slaves.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 25 Jul 2012 20:00

The problem is desh.. and not the western narratives. People in desh are disoriented and dislocated to understand the flattery. The fact desh stands tall in the number of cheating incidents speaks volume about belief systems, and taken for rides cases without even knowing that they are on a ride. IF we can convert them to understand, then it becomes more realistic in terms of approaching the problem from ground up.

Cost and Time does not matter here, as long as it is realistic and effective.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 25 Jul 2012 23:24

From GDF Thread

Samudragupta wrote:RajeshA ji

This thread and the one OIT in the start forum...i think at this rate u will not stop until the germans proclaim themselves as Hindus and Germany become the 31st province of India.....

:lol: :twisted:


Samudragupta ji,

As in Highlander, Connor/Duncan MacLeod proclaim, "there can be only one"! :wink: Either it is AIT or it is OIT.

It is not really targeted at the Germans, in so far as to make them change their mentality or lifestyle. It is more targeted at them in the sense that they accept the OIT version of history, so that this acceptance can flow back to India.

As you can well imagine, I think this is in fact a boulder around the neck of Indians. Once Indians get clarity on what their history is, they will be freer to indulge in it, and to derive inspiration from it! Indians are naturally big lappers of knowledge. But this knowledge of history needs to first get legitimacy. From there the Indians would go to the minutest details and imbibe everything they can lay their hands on.

We have purged all our previous systems of knowledge and tried to build a new foundation on Macaulayist vision of India. Even with that we have done well, but that would keep us always as junior appendages to the Western powers.

In order to break free of that, we will need to bridge the gap between our traditional knowledge systems and modernity with as little Macaulayist cement as possible.

And that is what is needed for the rejuvenation of India as a Civilization in her own right - A Bifrost :wink: bridge between Old India and New India circumventing Macaulayist India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 26 Jul 2012 02:02

I'll be away for some time! Please carry on!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dhiman » 26 Jul 2012 10:14

RajeshA wrote:As in Highlander, Connor/Duncan MacLeod proclaim, "there can be only one"! :wink: Either it is AIT or it is OIT.


Rajesh ji,

The fact that people migrated into India is indisputable just like the fact that people migrated into the rest of the world from Africa. So in absolute terms, the only truly indigenous people are the African Bushmen since they have always lived in the area where humans first evolved, i.e OAT (Out of Africa Theory). In relative terms OIT (Out of India Theory) is also correct, since between 30 to 50 thousands years ago, humans migrated from Africa to India and then to rest of Asia and across the Bering Strait into Americas. In relative terms, OMT (out of middle east Theory) is also correct, since between 30 to 50 thousands years ago, humans who had reached general area of current day Iran-Turkmenistan on their way to India, did a V-shaped turn and started migrated into Europe and also continued onto Russia and then crossed Bearing Straight into North and South America.

After this initial peopling of the planet was complete some 30,000 years ago, one could find humans more or less everywhere, including in polar regions and remote islands of Indian Ocean. These humans settled down and started carrying out agriculture, expanded in population, and their genetic imprint became stronger and stronger. Migration from one place to another still continued, although its impact became lesser and lesser as time went as it became easier and easier to absorb migrants into local population without leaving any genetic trace.

As a result of this early migration, three basic group of populations emerged in India: ANI (Ancestral North Indians), ASI (Ancestral South Indians), and Indo-Tibetian (this was actually an India to south-east Asia and back to India migration). Migration of ANI and ASI populations overlapped to a great degree and merged as these populations settled in India - as a result an overwhelming majority of south Indians look the same as the overwhelming majority of north Indians. All this was complete more than 10,000 years ago, i.e by the end of the last ice age. The point being, Indians in general (except from some specific groups) look the same as what they did before record history and culture 10,000 years ago.

So given that migration, both into and out of india, are common place throughout history and prehistory, what is exactly the issue with AIT? The issue in my view is that it decides whether the current day culture of India is imported or native.

Rigvedic discussion of horse is taken as all encompassing and important aspect or Aryan culture and blown out of proportion at the expense of all else so much so that lack of a large-scale historical horse population in India means Indian culture was not born natively but is imported.

The absence of any mention of bricks in rig Veda is interpreted to mean that Aryans didn't know about bricks (unlike Indus Valley civilization) and hence came from outside, but not that Rigveda is older than Indus Valley - something that most Indians have known for generations.

So the ingrained racism in these AIT idots makes them interpret the presence of horse and absence of bricks in Rigveda as the "truth". However, Rigveda's own description of Aryan homeland as Punjab region is conveniently taken as false and interpreted to mean Caspian Sea region.

Obscure Mittani inscriptions found in middle-east are taken to mean that Aryan culture first developed outside of India while completely disregarding 60,000 year old back-and-forth migration of humans all across the region from Africa to India as this would lead to the most common sense explanation that Mittani were just a group of people who got on a boat in India and ended up in middle east.

Linguistic similarity between Sanskrit and European languages is taken to mean that a large scale migration of people took place from somewhere close to Europe into India while completely ignoring the fact that that language of maths (i.e the number system) spread from India to rest of the world without any hint of migration. The common-sense fact that a single human being armed with knowledge can migrate to a new area and spread that knowledge like wildfire simply alludes these AIT idiots.

My main point being that its not just AIT or OIT, its both and not just now but for last 60,000 years. There is no native population anywhere in the world in absolute sense. However there is a thing called native culture and this AIT crap is a continuing colonial legacy, continuing racist attack combined with left-wing social re-engineering on native Indian culture by people who have racism and disdain ingrained in them but refuse to see it for their own narrow agendas.

This Aryan Invasion Theory has reinvented itself with times to suit different political agendas and will continue to be reinvented in future as well, but rest assured it won't last long.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2012 12:08

Dhiman could you point me to some genetic evdence differentiating the ancestral north indians and the ancestral south Indians you mention? TIA.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Adrija » 26 Jul 2012 14:19

Dhiman could you point me to some genetic evdence differentiating the ancestral north indians and the ancestral south Indians you mention? TIA.


Doc, not Dhiman but doing the needful, here is the link to the original paper on the AJHG website

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929711004885


Lest people get the wrong ideas, am also pasting a review from varnam:

Now a new paper published in the American Journal of Human Genetics states that current Indian population is derived from two ancestral populations—the Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI)—both of which are older than 3500 Years Before Present (YBP). Though this seems to confirm the Aryan-Dravidian divide and the migration which happened after 1900 BCE, the paper actually does the opposite; it refutes the large scale migration version of the Aryan theory.

Researchers led by Mait Metspalu of Evolutionary Biology Group of Estonia studied 600,000 Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) markers among 30 ethnic groups in India. The human genomes consists of chromosomes, represented by the double helix and specific locations on the chromosome can be identified using markers with the common ones being micro-satellite markers and SNP markers. Among the two, SNP markers are popular for gene fine mapping. The study takes data from existing genetic studies and combines it with new data from North Indian and South Indian population to trace the external influences from Europe.

One of the ancestral components—the ANI—is common not just in South Asia, but also in West Asia and Caucasus while the ASI is limited to South Asia. While this may seem to clearly demarcate the natives and the foreign migrants, it does not. Except for some Astroasiatic tribes and two small Dravidian tribes in Tamil Nadu and Kerala, all other South Indians have more than 40% of the ANI component. This means that everyone except these few groups are not purely native.

The important question then is this: When did the ANI mix with the ASI?. If that period is between 1900 BCE and 1500 BCE, then it would confirm the many versions of Aryan theory in existence right now. When these researchers modeled the data, they could not find any evidence of a dramatic Central Asian migration for this period. So they went back and till about 12500 Years Before Present (YBP) they could not find any evidence. Thus the mixing of the ANI and ASI did not happen 140 generations before as was believed, but probably more than 500 generations back (Each generation is 25 years). The paper explicitly mentions Max Muller’s theory and says that it is hard to find evidence for such a migration following the collapse of the Harappan civilization.

Few years back, researchers working on this project suggested that the ANI emerged 40,000 years back and mixed with the ASI at a later date. So as it stands now, the mixing between the two groups happened some time between 40,000 YBP and 12,500 YBP. So if there is a European component in Indian genes, that event happened much earlier than the decline of the Harappan civilisation and not because of the hypothetical Aryan migration around 1500 BCE.

Going back 12,500 years we have to wonder what event was responsible for this shared ancestry between the ANI and Europeans? Did it happen during the Out of Africa migration phase? Humans reached India first before moving to Europe in which case the European gene pool would be derived from the much diverse South Asian pool. Or was there any other incident much later which was responsible for this?

Coming back to the period following the decline of the Harappan civilisation there are more questions for scholarly head scratching. Even though the ANI-ASI mixture may happened quite earlier, there must have been constant migration of people in both directions which was not large enough to leave a genetic footprint. If you accept that premise, how did this minor trickle of people change the region culturally. If these are the people who bought horses to India, why don’t we see a proliferation of horse bones following this period?

The current models don’t have a convincing explanation for many such questions.

Related posts:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2012 14:42

Adrija wrote:http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929711004885


Lest people get the wrong ideas, am also pasting a review from varnam:

Now a new paper published in the American Journal of Human Genetics states that current Indian population is derived from two ancestral populations—the Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI)—both of which are older than 3500 Years Before Present (YBP). Though this seems to confirm the Aryan-Dravidian divide and the migration which happened after 1900 BCE, the paper actually does the opposite; it refutes the large scale migration version of the Aryan theory.
<snip>
Going back 12,500 years we have to wonder what event was responsible for this shared ancestry between the ANI and Europeans? Did it happen during the Out of Africa migration phase? Humans reached India first before moving to Europe in which case the European gene pool would be derived from the much diverse South Asian pool. Or was there any other incident much later which was responsible for this?



Thanks. The reason I asked for a link is because this was the very paper I expected. Either it was posted on this thread earlier of I found it while searching.The usage of terminology like "Ancestral North Indian" and "Ancestral South Indians" for people who lived 12,000 plus years ago is a mistake and we must not make that mistake. It is a political choice to use that terminology (ANI and ASI) and I mention it only to condemn it and request that discerning people do not use it. After all those people may well have taken Sanskrit to Greece and the far east. Why don't we call them ancestral south Europeans and ancestral south east Asian?

We blindly accept fake terminology like ASI and ANI because we have been taught to have an Aryan-Dravidian bias in our education. When someone bluffs on those lines - we tend to swallow it whole.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 26 Jul 2012 14:43

i bet no one has yet done a genetic study of horses... that might put a few more things to rest

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 26 Jul 2012 16:39

FYI, relevant to thinking about the Avesta, etc:

Vishal Agarwal wrote on Rajiv Malhotra's discussion group:

In the Rigveda, Asura is not (A + Sura) but rather (Asu+Ra), and this is clear from the accent as well. For this reason, many Devatas are specifically referred to as Asuras, like Varuna. And a Sukta has a refrain in its verses: mahat devaanaam asuratvan ekam (citing from memory).

The same word which means one thing in Vedic Sanskrit can mean something different in Laukika Sanskrit. You may wish to read - "Asura in Early Vedic Religion" by Wash Edward

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 26 Jul 2012 17:07

Sanskrit in itself doesn't have a script, you can write Sanskrit in any of the Indian langauge and can produce the same sounds, please note that I didn't say similar, but the same sound. That means the Sanskrit pronunciation has to be supported by the language in which you are writing. Since you can write the same sound of Sanskrit in any of the Indian languages, it means there is compatibility of sorts between Indian languages and Sanskrit.

Now take any European language, current or the older version of it and try to replicate Sanskrit sounds, what do you find? Firstly one has to struggle to find the alphabet to use to write Sanskrit, if it is to be believed that Sanskrit is European in origin, then any immediate daughter languages should be able to support all Sanskrit sounds thus be able to write as we do in Indian languages, why is there such a struggle to write even simple Sanskrit sounds in say English or German? I think the reason is obvious one...Sanskrit sounds are alien to European language speakers.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 26 Jul 2012 17:21

LalMohan ji, there is one latest study done as recently as May 2012 if I'm correct, as per the researcher, domestication of horse is done in Steppes first. The only think I remember is that all her samples were only from Europe.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2012 19:37

Lalmohan wrote:i bet no one has yet done a genetic study of horses... that might put a few more things to rest


No. Plenty has been done and it kills the central Asian domestication fairy tale. In fact one progenitor of the modern horse the Equus sivalensis was domesticated in India.

More than a dozen (at least 17 IIRC) "original mother mares" have been detected in genetic studies suggestig multiple acts of domestication in widely different geographic areas.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2012 19:38

venug wrote:LalMohan ji, there is one latest study done as recently as May 2012 if I'm correct, as per the researcher, domestication of horse is done in Steppes first. The only think I remember is that all her samples were only from Europe.


No venug-ji. This ain't correct. Will try and fish out the paper for you.

OK here is the 2012 paper
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/ ... 9.full.pdf

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 26 Jul 2012 20:27

shiv garu, I was referring to this paper:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/ ... 2109.short

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2012 20:43

venug wrote:shiv garu, I was referring to this paper:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/ ... 2109.short


:D Here's the catch. The authors are trying to match the genetic evidence to available archaeological evidence, just like our friends the linguists.

the scenario of horse domestication proposed here unites evidence from archaeology, mitochondrial DNA, and Y-chromosomal DNA.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 26 Jul 2012 21:38

i have a worry that genetic studies are also as inaccurate in plotting migration as linguistics
including the out of africa theories - which do rely almost entirely on archeological evidence; which though getting better, is still needles in haystacks

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2012 22:02

like what if the ancestral gene have mutations along the way?

from wiki:
Changes in chromosome number may involve even larger mutations, where segments of the DNA within chromosomes break and then rearrange. For example, in the Homininae, two chromosomes fused to produce human chromosome 2; this fusion did not occur in the lineage of the other apes, and they retain these separate chromosomes.[16] In evolution, the most important role of such chromosomal rearrangements may be to accelerate the divergence of a population into new species by making populations less likely to interbreed, and thereby preserving genetic differences between these populations.[17]


How can say which is older gene and which is newer? in the sense, if african genes are newer than indic genes, vs. if european geans are older than indic ones etc? Now, genes alone can destabilize all theories if established correct.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Vayutuvan » 26 Jul 2012 22:19

Dhiman wrote:Linguistic similarity between Sanskrit and European languages is taken to mean that a large scale migration of people took place from somewhere close to Europe into India while completely ignoring the fact that that language of maths (i.e the number system) spread from India to rest of the world without any hint of migration.

Dhiman ji, that is contested (please note that I am not saying they are correct) by one Pingree. IIRC, one of the very famous mathemtaicians turned mathematical historian - Van der Waerden - also holds similar views. Pingree has written several papers over a period of 40-50 years, so would be easy to find.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 26 Jul 2012 22:26

One need not prove another theory to be correct to disprove a different theory. If theory remains not proven, then the theory should deference from mainstream education, till it proves right.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 26 Jul 2012 22:44

shiv garu, so this is "you scratch my back and I scratch your back and we all scratch OIT" strategy then. Like you pointed out, Witzel quotes Farmer, Farmer quotes WItzel and finally say that they are correct all along, hence upholding each others theory. Now even human genetics will be used very similar to the above, already R1a is being used to prove the origin of that subclad in CA.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshG » 26 Jul 2012 23:08

More than a dozen (at least 17 IIRC) "original mother mares"


dravidian .. all 17 of them (ok maybe 16).. who would tremble at the sight of the white aryan stud thundering down the himalayas... a full 15 feet tall with an 8 feet hard-on.. the feared and reverred "vedic tank".. ba da bing.. ba da boom.. vedic tank will get you.. ba da..

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 27 Jul 2012 08:23

venug wrote:shiv garu, so this is "you scratch my back and I scratch your back and we all scratch OIT" strategy then. Like you pointed out, Witzel quotes Farmer, Farmer quotes WItzel and finally say that they are correct all along, hence upholding each others theory. Now even human genetics will be used very similar to the above, already R1a is being used to prove the origin of that subclad in CA.

Many people even outside of BRF have pointed out the circular, self referencing reasoning used by the protagonists of the AIT.

Sanskrit knowledge is used to translate the Mitanni and Avestan texts and then those languages are declared as sisters of Sanskrit and a mother language is cooked up.

Witzel proposes a theory in one paper and in his next paper he quotes his own earlier paper as a scholarly reference to support what he is saying

The R1a argument has been trashed. I have myself made posts with related refs on the topic in earlier pages of this thread

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dhiman » 27 Jul 2012 10:53

shiv wrote:We blindly accept fake terminology like ASI and ANI because we have been taught to have an Aryan-Dravidian bias in our education. When someone bluffs on those lines - we tend to swallow it whole.


Completely agree with you here Sir. The differences are minor. So this Aryan-Dravidian bias is really focusing on things that makes us different while ignoring the massive commonality.

The fact that an African man can mate with a Thai women to produce an offspring who would then mate with a Swedish women and still be able to have children means that Swedish, African, and Thai are all members of the same species (I am sure you can tell that my biological knowledge is limited) because humans certainly can't mate with elephants - a different species.

So beyond this fundamental "species" factor, a group of humans no matter how homogenous they are will blow narrow obscure differences out of proportion and use that to divide themselves into "us" camp and "them" camp and then the "us" and "them" camps of humans will fight over whatever difference that they think they have. At the same time, a "third" and a "fourth" camp of humans who consider themselves even more different than the "us" and the "then" camp will encourage such differentiation and fighting between "us" and "them" camp, so that the "third" and "fourth" camp can feel happy about themselves. If this was not the case, life would be boring :mrgreen:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dhiman » 27 Jul 2012 11:09

SaiK wrote:How can say which is older gene and which is newer? in the sense, if african genes are newer than indic genes, vs. if european geans are older than indic ones etc? Now, genes alone can destabilize all theories if established correct.


Ideally, we shouldn't really care. But beyond that I would take the word of a scientist any day rather than an historian. A scientist can be biased, but at least he/she has been trained to meticulously do research while filtering out any bias and come up with results that other scientists can easily reproduce and verify.

History and historians on the other hand is closely associated with Bullshit, self-glorification, propaganda, and god knows what else.

As far as I know, study of human genome to discover human migrations and ancestry is a relatively new field and still very much in flux, but the general direction of where things are going seem to be clear. It's going to put a lot of historians out of business.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 27 Jul 2012 15:36

shiv garu, in fact it is your argument in previous pages which has put things in perspective and made things clearer for me wrt R1a.

Dhiman garu, looking at the way even scientists (geneticists) are colluding with historians and archeologists to infer data to fit their ideology, I think only analysis and contextual understanding are better things that one can depend on, sometimes counter argument or explanation from other experts only can give us a better perspective in matters relating to AIT.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Klaus » 27 Jul 2012 16:46

Not sure if this has been covered here. India to develop Torpedo Testing Centre in Kyrgyztan.

The relevant point is however,
India is also planning to use the facility to test the Autonomous Underwater Vehicle Developed by Naval Scientific and Technological Laboratory ( NSTL).


The significance of Issyk Kul lake in Kyrgyztan is that it is the site of an ancient sunken civilization- Link

The ASI will need marine archaeologists and divers if they are to be able to recover artifacts from this site. The operation would be similar to the underwater structures off the Dwaraka coast.

Kyrgyztan is known as the Uttara Kuru kingdom in the epics. The ASI should be able to test some of their hypothesis here, provided everything else comes through.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby AbhiJ » 27 Jul 2012 17:44

venug wrote:TSP is hoping for AIT. That way they can reconcile Islamic invaders and plunderers by saying that Upper caste Indians themselves are invaders who plundered India and subjugated Dravidians, AIT is a ruse for them, hence there is nothing wrong in islamic invaders meting the same fate to Hindus.


Has that reached the Academia Level of Abduls?

I am starting to hear on Ground Level.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby AbhiJ » 27 Jul 2012 18:03

After reading the last couple of pages and some recent experiences with the Eurosnobs, I came to believe that there are more fault lines in Eurabians than the Asians. Just that there is no one to Exploit it. The Skin of the West looks Monster thick from Outside but as near you go you realize the More Fragile it is!

They have realized it and are upping the ants. First they used to suppress the kind of OIT Believers by Banning RSS, Then Today's Time Hindutva - Then Saffron Terrorism - The Latest being Internet Hindus. This is just at the Home Turf. Wonder will we be treated like the Evil Communists and the Islamists?


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