India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Jul 2012 01:23

ramana wrote:So Katherine Mayo lives again@!

Modern day Drain inspector. At she lives upto her drain brain culture.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 26 Jul 2012 05:51

Lilo-san, some of your statements such as PRC giving nooks to TSP because West asked it to do so, are more in the CT territory for which I would love to see some shreds of evidence, even if it is similar statements from other sources. You would also perhaps say that they persuaded NK to give them missiles?

But the overall spirit of your post - that India and PRC can cooperate and prosper is something I would personally be happy to see happen in my lifetime. One of those cases where being proved wrong can be a happy thing indeed. Other than the fact that they are anti-India and run by commies, I have no issues with PRC because of their color, religion or whatever. On the contrary, I have nothing but admiration for that race, based on my experience with Taiwan, SEA and other places..

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 26 Jul 2012 05:53

Jhujar wrote: help prostitutes in India get off the streets and into employment, and in the process hopefully bring them to Christ.

aren't they already in employment? Why turn them into the street unemployed?!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Jul 2012 05:57

help prostitutes in India get off the streets and into employment, and in the process hopefully bring them to Christ.

Yes, hopefully India can become like Christian America, where there are no prostitutes...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jul 2012 06:09

They become Apostles?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 26 Jul 2012 07:12

Suppiah ji,
In such a case there is no *real* evidence of nuke tech transfer by PRC to the pakees even.
All the "evidence" is western sourced in the first place and was unearthed and tied around PRC's neck quite conveniently after their victory in Cold war.And PRC as predetermined doesnt even comment on those allegations . So west had a perfect smokescreen running.

The AQK network run by ISI was so complex that every second intelligence agency (CIA,MI6,Chinese,NoKos,Iranians,Oiropian mafia,Libyans,Mossad and by some reports RAW even) had fingers/observers in the pie. The scale, complexity and geographical extent etc are similar to the current blackmoney/drug networks and there is nodoubt that it was a network built according to specifics by the CIA and run by the pakees. There is no way that a pakee could have conceptualized and operationalized such a network however TFTA he might have been.And the fact was, because of western collusion the operation to get pakees their nuke had a degree of inevitability to it.
Another such example is the BCCI operation (it was again a CIA conceptualized one - even western sources corroborate this).

Currently the pakees are agumenting their plutonium production capacity through illegal reactors being built by Chinese and there is no sanction of substance from the western cabal eventhough China is a member of both NSG,NPT etc. This proves that for the west maintaining of pakee as their nuclear munna was the plan all along.

Now when shit hits the fan and if paki's deliver a JDAM/Nuke strike on India - who will India retaliate on ..??

I only hope our nuclear posture as conveyed to the stakeholders in the paki project, had made the consequences clear to ALL the stakeholders involved - in such a scenario, not just to the Pakees and the PRC.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2012 09:23

Lilo wrote: Now when shit hits the fan and if paki's deliver a JDAM/Nuke strike on India - who will India retaliate on ..??

That is why I keep saying that India, by playing dead while the US fights with jihad, can expect that the anger felt at the USA can only increase among Pakis. The fact that Pakistanis and Indians who want India to help America feel nothing but contempt about an India that lies supine and gets kicked by Paki terrorists should not matter as long as Pakistanis feel more and more angry at the USA. Ultimately the US too has to realize that all this fake behavior of calling Pakistan an ally and funding the army while using wimp like attacks on unarmed villagers by drones in only going to increase the danger to the USA.

Other than swallowing terrorism, India has everything to gain by displaying even more wimp like behavior than the US. Without deconstructing the Pakistani army the US will not win. Long ago the US, along with China, discovered that a policy of supporting the Pakistani army alone against India was not working and turned a blind eye towards jihad. The US and China must have their asses chewed off good and proper by that jihad before things can get better. Jihad and Islamism must be allowed to flourish in Pakistan. Only Americans and people who get their inputs about Islam from the US believe that the Taliban are a degree worse than Pakistan. They don't know Pakistan. They must be given the opportunity to find out.

Having survived for decades with no nation feeling any sympathy for India, certainly not the US, this is not the time for Indians to go all mushy and go all out to support the USA, mistakenly believing that the US and India will both benefit from opposing Pakistan. That is a naive viewpoint. If India hits Pakistan, the US will be able to "balance" Pakistan against India and get the Paki army to behave friendly to the US in exchange for support against India. It is phenomenally stupid to imagine that the US is a friend when Pakistan is a US ally.

India needs to do whatever possible to keep terrorism at bay without hitting Pakistan, and bring out the beer and popcorn and let the US Cowboy fight it out. Let American boys die for their freedom and democracy, or else they too can do a wimp like cop out and kill villagers with drones while jihad gets stronger. Is this viewpoint a wimp like cop out? Is this the view of a cowardly yellow bellied, lily livered dhoti shivering SDRE? Yes, of course it is. If India does this what is the US going to do about it? After all we are not attacking their ally. Would the US be happy if we attacked their ally Australia? Would the US be happy if we attacked their ally Pakistan? We should understand our place in this world.

People keep telling me that things are getting better and better between the US and India. Why not help that by not attacking their ally Pakistan? Pakistan is a US ally isn't it? The US goes by the letter of the law, and Pakistan has to be treated as an ally.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Jul 2012 09:38

We are all so desperate to be friends with everyone - from the US to China, we see nothing much wrong in their poeple, in their lives, in their societies, in their economies - nothing negative at all, nada. While they continuously pick on our pagan horrors, our cramped rooms, our prostitutes, our lack of grwooooth, lack of prozperity, our beggars, our crushed and repressed - and we hang our heads in shame or become defensive. But we still want to be friends with everyone without criticizing anything about them.

For once can we stop being so nice, and so "Indian", and start being hateful and critical? Can we just for once say - oh yes we want to be enemies for those who show enmity towards us? Our ancestors gifted us this crampedness, this lack of prozperity by being nice to murderers and looters masquerading under pretentious imperialist religions. Can we go beyond this sickening niceness, please?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jul 2012 09:41

This is the ripe time to send test-stealth ucav's and do a few bunker busting.. and return to base, without detection. in case if it get shot down, let them read "Made In USA".

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 26 Jul 2012 10:14

shiv wrote:That is why I keep saying that India, by playing dead while the US fights with jihad, can expect that the anger felt at the USA can only increase among Pakis.

Shiv-mulla, there is not much satisfaction in looking at Pakis anger at USA, we are not that far behind/ahead in the queue.

Jihad and Islamism must be allowed to flourish in Pakistan.

400% agree.

It is phenomenally stupid to imagine that the US is a friend when Pakistan is a US ally.

Very true..but don't you see that changing...all those openly brf-ish terms being used to describe TSP by the al-lie?

People keep telling me that things are getting better and better between the US and India. Why not help that by not attacking their ally Pakistan? Pakistan is a US ally isn't it? The US goes by the letter of the law, and Pakistan has to be treated as an ally.

Let us be wary of Unkil creating situation where India WILL attack TSP, Unkil will wink and let us do the dirty job of deconstructing TSPA.

habal · Post by **habal** » 26 Jul 2012 10:35

brihaspati wrote:We are all so desperate to be friends with everyone - from the US to China, we see nothing much wrong in their poeple, in their lives, in their societies, in their economies - nothing negative at all, nada. While they continuously pick on our pagan horrors, our cramped rooms, our prostitutes, our lack of grwooooth, lack of prozperity, our beggars, our crushed and repressed - and we hang our heads in shame or become defensive. But we still want to be friends with everyone without criticizing anything about them.

For once can we stop being so nice, and so "Indian", and start being hateful and critical? Can we just for once say - oh yes we want to be enemies for those who show enmity towards us? Our ancestors gifted us this crampedness, this lack of prozperity by being nice to murderers and looters masquerading under pretentious imperialist religions. Can we go beyond this sickening niceness, please?

a people with singular lack of self-confidence will continue to take all insults and assaults against them as truth and pretend to march on as if nothing mattered.

It doesn't matter until all things are normal, but if and when SHTF during conflict they will just switch sides to the latest power and continue to pretend as if nothing happened, they will obviously still get insults in their way but it's just as before no .. all continues as normal.

there is an ingrained defeatism in all Indians and even most of us on BRF.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Jul 2012 12:19

brihaspati wrote: For once can we stop being so nice, and so "Indian", and start being hateful and critical? Can we just for once say - oh yes we want to be enemies for those who show enmity towards us? Our ancestors gifted us this crampedness, this lack of prozperity by being nice to murderers and looters masquerading under pretentious imperialist religions. Can we go beyond this sickening niceness, please?

There can be advantages in appearing harmless, as long as we are not fooling ourselves about the circumstances.

There can also be advantages in appearing menacing sometimes ... a judgment call.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 26 Jul 2012 13:01

As one who got Suppiahji started,I want to put things in perspective.

In Tamilnaadu,the fishermans issue with SL get a trillion gazillion times more coverage,it gets the political forces worked up and is 'seen' as a 'derilection' of 'duty by GOI' though the issues are murkier because of history(LTTE) and international boundaries and a paranoid SL govt.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 26 Jul 2012 13:13

PALL OF GLOOM DESCENDS ON VILLAGE

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 26 Jul 2012 13:16

svenkat wrote:As one who got Suppiahji started,

Should thank you..discovered the depth of the anti-US feeling amongst our mujahid birathers...if a survey were to be held we may end up beating TSP.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Jul 2012 13:21

shiv wrote: Having survived for decades with no nation feeling any sympathy for India, certainly not the US, this is not the time for Indians to go all mushy and go all out to support the USA, mistakenly believing that the US and India will both benefit from opposing Pakistan ...

At the same time, if Indian friendliness (or an appearance thereof) can encourage any power to be tougher with the Paks, then that is what the policy should be.

One of the foundational principles of "divide and rule" is to be friendly with all sides.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2012 14:09

Pranav wrote:
shiv wrote: Having survived for decades with no nation feeling any sympathy for India, certainly not the US, this is not the time for Indians to go all mushy and go all out to support the USA, mistakenly believing that the US and India will both benefit from opposing Pakistan ...
At the same time, if Indian friendliness (or an appearance thereof) can encourage any power to be tougher with the Paks, then that is what the policy should be.

Why would the US, for whom Pakistan is an ally, be tough on Pakistan just because non ally India is "friendly" to the US?

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 26 Jul 2012 14:24

@Suppiah
India will not help the US to counter china. As I said before:

Asia without china will create a power vacuum that will suck the US into it.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 26 Jul 2012 15:12

Jhujar wrote:http://churchacronym.blogspot.com/2012/ ... regon.html
Let's raise up missionaries for Oregon and Maine

Recently my husband attended an afternoon meeting with a lovely couple from Campus Crusade who are raising support to help prostitutes in India get off the streets and into employment, and in the process hopefully bring them to Christ. Christianity is experiencing quite a drop off in Maine and Oregon according to some recent figures. Perhaps we could shore up the churches here. It's not as dramatic, but it might be a lot less expensive to turn the trend here at home rather than to have to start over in 50 years.

The programs around india are sustained on funds. If you cut that pipe, everything resets back to its old self. Many of these people are poor and vulnerable. If the evangelists want to put money on them then let them. What is the problem?

My point is, it's all going to reset at some point in time.

I've spent time with christian communities of the south, konkan and mobai(bombay). If you listen to them as they explain their identity, you'll see a shocking parallel between them and indian muslims. Where the indian muslims associate themselves with the arabs, the konkan/mobai area christians do the same with the portugese. Southern christians convert as a form of political statement or a need of belonging in a community.

All of the above is achieved by a narrative with 180 degree reconstruction of history. But here is the most interesting part... They are completely aware that their identity is artificial.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Jul 2012 15:35

shiv wrote: Why would the US, for whom Pakistan is an ally, be tough on Pakistan just because non ally India is "friendly" to the US?

If India is perceived as friendly, it reduces (but admittedly does not eliminate) their motivation to rely on the Paks. US and Pak are allies but not without marital disputes.

This should go together with reducing the motivation of the Paks to attack India. The best way to do that is by making it clear that they have no hope of success. But non-hostile atmospherics can also play a secondary role.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2012 20:04

Pranav wrote: If India is perceived as friendly, it reduces (but admittedly does not eliminate) their motivation to rely on the Paks.

This is precisely the impression that people have that i am trying to correct because I sincerely believe it is wrong. This viewpoint treats international relations like relationships between friends and that goodness on India's part might change the US's calculations.

The US seeks more control over Pakistan than it can exert. Pakistan offers better cooperation with the US in exchange for aid to bash India. The US offers precisely aid to bash India in order to buy Pakistani cooperation. The more threatening that India is the more aid Pakistan will need and demand. If India is threatening Pakistan, the US can then blackmail Pakistan by saying that they won't give aid unless something is delivered. Pakistan delivers something, and gets aid against India.

People keep repeating that "This is changing". But as long as Pakistan is a declared US ally nothing will change. It is a silly paradox to claim that the US is a country that takes its laws very seriously and then say in the same breath that it does not take its alliance with Pakistan seriously. Pakistan is India's enemy. Pakistan is a US ally. Pakistan only wishes to harm India It is absurd to claim that the US can go against its allies wishes. Too many roundabout convoluted excuses are made to cover up and deny this fundamental reality.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Jul 2012 20:31

shiv wrote: This is precisely the impression that people have that i am trying to correct because I sincerely believe it is wrong. This viewpoint treats international relations like relationships between friends and that goodness on India's part might change the US's calculations.

It is not that Indian goodness will be reciprocated by goodness, but Indian policies may affect US calculations about their self-interest, to an extent. There certainly are structural difficulties, because one of the goals of the elites controlling the US is to prevent the emergence of another world power, particularly, Russia, China and India.

The US seeks more control over Pakistan than it can exert. Pakistan offers better cooperation with the US in exchange for aid to bash India. The US offers precisely aid to bash India in order to buy Pakistani cooperation. The more threatening that india is the miore aid Pakistan will need. If India is threatening Pakistan, the US can then blackmail Pakistan by saying that they won;t give aid unless something is delivered. Pakistan delivers something, and gets aid against India.

People keep repeating that "This changing". But as long as Pakistan is a declared US ally nothing will change. It is a silly paradox to claim that the US is a country that takes its laws very seriously and then say in the same breath that it does not take its alliance with Pakistan seriously. Pakistan is India's enemy. Pakistan is a US ally. Pakistan only wishes to harm India It is absurd to claim that the US can go against its allies wishes. Too many roundabout convoluted excuses are made to cover up and deny this fundamental reality.

I agree with most of that, ultimately Paks will need to be brought out of their Islamist delusions.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jul 2012 20:49

NPA/Arms control high priests are now pushing for arms sales to India!!! The lurking issue is that demand for arms in US is going down due to dearth of funding and the firms need to be kept viable for future. So there are calls to make India the chash cow to keep these giants alive.
So NPAs are now pressing for armament drive by India!

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 26 Jul 2012 22:14

The US seeks more control over Pakistan than it can exert. Pakistan offers better cooperation with the US in exchange for aid to bash India. The US offers precisely aid to bash India in order to buy Pakistani cooperation. The more threatening that India is the more aid Pakistan will need and demand. If India is threatening Pakistan, the US can then blackmail Pakistan by saying that they won't give aid unless something is delivered. Pakistan delivers something, and gets aid against India.

Shiv ji,
Isnt US aid to pakistan a leverage that US has on both countries (India and pakistan)? If India is threatening Pakistan then US can threaten both India and pakistan with aid to pakistan. Irrespective of whether US provides aid to pakistan or denies it, there is some country in the region that is getting the stick.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 26 Jul 2012 22:34

Suppiah wrote:
svenkat wrote:As one who got Suppiahji started,
Should thank you..discovered the depth of the anti-US feeling amongst our mujahid birathers...if a survey were to be held we may end up beating TSP.

Is being non-anti-usa the new yardstick for righteousness? Silly me, I thought that on BRF at least, it is being pro-India, and anti- those who harm India.

Ok then.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 26 Jul 2012 22:44

ManjaM wrote:
The US seeks more control over Pakistan than it can exert. Pakistan offers better cooperation with the US in exchange for aid to bash India. The US offers precisely aid to bash India in order to buy Pakistani cooperation. The more threatening that India is the more aid Pakistan will need and demand. If India is threatening Pakistan, the US can then blackmail Pakistan by saying that they won't give aid unless something is delivered. Pakistan delivers something, and gets aid against India.

Shiv ji,
Isnt US aid to pakistan a leverage that US has on both countries (India and pakistan)? If India is threatening Pakistan then US can threaten both India and pakistan with aid to pakistan. Irrespective of whether US provides aid to pakistan or denies it, there is some country in the region that is getting the stick.

India has lived with US aid to pakistan--directed entirely against India, and including nukes--for 65 years, as a reality, not a threat. If you want to understand how that affects India, just look at India's conduct for the last 65 years.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 26 Jul 2012 22:56

Where the indian muslims associate themselves with the arabs, the konkan/mobai area christians do the same with the portugese.

This is because monotheism has the concept of a Master Race which drives that religion and is considered superior to the rest of humanity. The converts try to latch on to this race somehow through imagined history -- but they don't know that monotheism is a racial construct in which the Master Race commandeers the prophet. The master race will never admit equality with other converts regardless of how much the converts try to latch on to it. Whites will laugh off brown or black Christians' attempts to latch on to the whites to get some kind of equal status, while Arabs will ridicule Indian Muslims as "Hindu Muslims" regardless of how much the converts claim Arab or Persian ancestory. The converts don't realise that the superior status guaranteed to the Master Race is the only incentive it has to drive its brand of monotheism. As long as converts adopt the names, clothes and language of the Mater Race, everything would be fine. But the day converts claim equality or ancestory, they will be cut down to size. Master Race encourages converts to become its mirror image (immitation is the best form of flattery) but is careful never to allow equality and to never marry their women to converts. How many Arab women have been married to Pakistanis?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jul 2012 00:55

Pranav wrote:
brihaspati wrote: For once can we stop being so nice, and so "Indian", and start being hateful and critical? Can we just for once say - oh yes we want to be enemies for those who show enmity towards us? Our ancestors gifted us this crampedness, this lack of prozperity by being nice to murderers and looters masquerading under pretentious imperialist religions. Can we go beyond this sickening niceness, please?
There can be advantages in appearing harmless, as long as we are not fooling ourselves about the circumstances.

There can also be advantages in appearing menacing sometimes ... a judgment call.

Are we ready to recognize the difference between "appearing to be friendly" and "wanting to be friends - preferably within our lifetimes"?

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 27 Jul 2012 04:11

Obama, Mitt Romney agree on one thing - India | PTI

That's a good place to be!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2012 06:54

ManjaM wrote: Shiv ji,
Isnt US aid to pakistan a leverage that US has on both countries (India and pakistan)? If India is threatening Pakistan then US can threaten both India and pakistan with aid to pakistan. Irrespective of whether US provides aid to pakistan or denies it, there is some country in the region that is getting the stick.

Well that statement is like observing that adding weight to one side of a set of scales means tipping the balance. To that extent your statement is perfectly accurate. The US's role is one of balancing India's power against Pakistan's power.

I cannot say this often enough, but too many people fail to understand the history of how powerful countries have helped or opposed both sides of a conflict to ensue that
1. Both warring parties can be pressurized to kowtow to the demands of the third party power
2. Resolution of the conflict causes loss of influence and is not desirable.
3. Industrial economies of a military industrial complex have everything to gain from balancing powers and keeping conflicts going

The Brits, French, Italians, Russians - everyone has done this. China is learning and wants to sell India aircraft.

An ideological conflict is God's gift to powers who seek to balance out nations in a region, keep them occupied, while they dominate and dictate the direction in which any individual war might go. This is the type of behavior that makes a world power, not the ability to carpet bomb - an ability that has never won a war despite popular rahrah appeal on NatGeo, Discovery and BRF

By being rabidly anti-India Pakistan is God's gift to any industrial military power that wants to meddle in the region. No power has kept away, but the US is the single most significant one. China is a distant second. Pakistan accepts aid from anyone the hit India, and for that reason India gets sucked into the game and is them open to being pressurized from various sides.

Now apply your mind to this question. India is stuck in a cycle where Pakistan seeks to destroy India, and gets aid from the US to hurt India, but Pakistan does not get enough aid to destroy India. The conflict will not end because there are powers whose industrial economies and geopolitical power depend on non resolution of the conflict. This is the part that dharmic Indian minds do not seem to be able to understand. No matter how much India arms itself, Pakistan has always received just enough arms and economic aid to keep its head above the water and ensure that an absolute Indian victory will be painful for India, putting India in a position where it will need aid from the very countries who have aided Pakistan in the aftermath of such a war. The industrial economies who benefited from this "balancing" stand to benefit even more as India seeks help. How can India break free from this cycle with the least damage to itself?

It makes sense for India to take the route of absorbing hits from Pakistan without entering into a disastrous war that will make our economy kneel in front of powers like the USA. While this has been India's policy for many decades, 9-11 was Allah's gift to India, and it is up to India to make the most of it. 9-11 put the US in direct conflict with radical Islam. The US tried to fudge ts way out by ignoring Pakistan, where the US had been supporting radical Islam for decades and tried to pretend that the problem lay in Afghanistan and Iraq. The US underestimated Pakistan and radical Islam.

It is essential that the US gets to face radical Islam head on, without the usual cop out that the US does by getting someone else to fight or declaring periodic victories in a war that it is unable to win. By not following up the parliament attack and 26/11 with war, India absorbed Pakistani terrorism without giving the US a chance to "mediate" and "balance out" India and Pakistan as it has done on earlier conflicts. This has made the Pakistani demand that it needs arms against India weak. Even the US President has to sell absurdity to the US voter. A belligerent Hindu India that attacks Pakistan makes it easy for the US congress to move resolutions to "condemn and restrict both sides" and after a period of sanctions, aid to Pakistan will be resumed because of Pakistan's suffering at the hands of a belligerent India.

By not attacking Pakistan, India is making Pakistan's accusation of belligerence weak and making the US ability to help Pakistan against India weaker. Luckily for India Allah knows that both India and the US are kafirs so the Muslim hordes are beginning to see though the US's double game and are trying to go for the US jugular.

It is a really happy thing to watch the US fight Islamists. Since Pakistan is the Caliphate of Islamism, I think India should do everything to encourage the US and Pakistan to fight. There is zero sentimentality and zero secrecy in this. I recall that many people on BRF got upset when I had earlier said that I support my Pakistani brothers in their fight against the kafir white racist Christians of the US. The idea is not to tell the truth or be honest. The idea is to provoke conflict between the USA and Pakistan by any means. But few people understood the motivation behind my calling Pakistanis as "my brothers" and as Muslim slaves to the Christian master.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 27 Jul 2012 07:25

shiv wrote:But few people understood the motivation behind my calling Pakistanis as "my brothers" and as Muslim slaves to the Christian master.

OK, but the white masters need to be as much your brothers as the Paks.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 27 Jul 2012 07:28

shiv wrote:Pakistan has always received just enough arms and economic aid to keep its head above the water and ensure that an absolute Indian victory will be painful for India, putting India in a position where it will need aid from the very countries who have aided Pakistan in the aftermath of such a war. The industrial economies who benefited from this "balancing" stand to benefit even more as India seeks help. How can India break free from this cycle with the least damage to itself?

Doc-mulllah, the bold part, you are making a lot of sense, I have to say it seems very logical.

But your own answer to your question about what India should do seems to be "take hits and wait it out and pray that Unkil and TSP go to war" , if I may summarise..

Assuming the 'aar paar ki ladai' option is off the table, what's wrong with co-opting one of the parties, the less belligerent, in this case Unkil, so it raises their opportunity costs of continuing with the strategy? I think this is precisely what is happening now. Given our size, potential and influence, Unkil is seeing the cost of supporting TSP/TSPA/LET piglets rising by the hour and same goes for PRC commies.

When I say cost, I don't mean doing things that hurt Unkil, it is opportunity cost - the prospect of seeing us cooperate more, buy more and so on..

As to when the scale will tip, no idea. But it is good for the 'carrot' to stay ahead of the donkey..if no carrot, it is even worse, as costs for Unkil is even lower, so he will carry on for another 100 years. That is what happened during the farcical non-aligned era when Unkil pretty much wrote off any chance of us coming to their side of the fence even on trivial matters. Now it is not so.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 27 Jul 2012 07:39

Suppiah wrote: As to when the scale will tip, no idea. But it is good for the 'carrot' to stay ahead of the donkey..if no carrot, it is even worse, as costs for Unkil is even lower, so he will carry on for another 100 years. That is what happened during the farcical non-aligned era when Unkil pretty much wrote off any chance of us coming to their side of the fence even on trivial matters. Now it is not so.

Its more like dangling a carrot infront of a donkey that does not like carrots and really has no need for carrots. In such a case we need a stick, we dont have that either.

Going to Unkil to co-operate/defend against Islamist and Stalinist Rapist Goons is like asking a convicted/proven murderer (who likes to murder to stay relevant) to help you defend against your rapist.

God Bless Amrika.... we are like this onleee

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 27 Jul 2012 07:45

^^^ that assumes that Unkil is completely mad and does not see benefit to himself and is just having some deep seated hatred against yeevil yindoos. Just like TSP has against us. Or Muslims against Joos. That is not true of a country 'that would gladly sell the rope by which it is about to be hanged, for a profit'

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 27 Jul 2012 07:58

Unkil cares about Unkil's people and the people of the [relevant] book, because from the recent stats unkil's citizens contributed around 210B $ (with a B ) of which a large percentage went for servicing the ops for the people of the book in forin nations.

Make no mistake about it, Unkil's elites use the people of the book like a condom, they will do whatever they can, kill whoever they can to make sure their position is not threatened. If you are not of the [relevant] book and [relevant] color, you are irrelevant collateral damage.

If Unkil was not completely mad, would he have gone after Sadam after 9/11 with imaginary WMDs? Sadam was a US ally not too long ago. What about bombing the phack out of Vietnam? Invasion of Phillipines? Diego Garcia?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2012 08:00

Suppiah wrote:
Assuming the 'aar paar ki ladai' option is off the table, what's wrong with co-opting one of the parties, the less belligerent, in this case Unkil, so it raises their opportunity costs of continuing with the strategy? I think this is precisely what is happening now. Given our size, potential and influence, Unkil is seeing the cost of supporting TSP/TSPA/LET piglets rising by the hour and same goes for PRC commies.

Without disagreeing with anything you have said above I will accuse you of being ignorant of history and reaching conclusions with complete innocence of how the current status has come about and what could change it.

You do not know or you have forgotten that it was Pakistan's size potential and influence that made the US take Pakistan's side in the late 1950s. From then on India has faced an uphill struggle, that doubled after the 1962 war and Chinese aid to Pakistan. India has seen off all these threats and reached a stage where you sit here today and proclaim that the US is now seeing "our size, potential and influence".

The US is the opportunist dog here who smells an India bone as he smelt the Pakistan bone in 1955. The US must be played, not sucked up to. The US has to fukkin well stop military aid to Pakistan and declare that Pakistan is not an ally. Nothing less. Until then there is no point taking the role of one more US chela which is what I see a lot of people, including yourself proposing. What we need with the US is not friendship. US does not consider friends its equals and builds up sympathy among "friendly nations" by giving sops. After having faced proxy butt kicks from the US the last thing we want is a slobbering love relationship with the US. We grab what we can and recognize that the US will only grab. The US's zehniyat is one of a grabbing bully. Paying off a minority in any nation (with money, visas, jobs) is cheaper for the US. The US buys off that minority and makes it look like it is a friend.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 27 Jul 2012 08:03

@ lakshmikanth.. ^^^ u have a point there. I personally have a hard time figuring which is bigger threat - evangelist or Islamist. Islamist is not evangelical in that sense, but at the same time threatens anyone that does not convert. Evangelical relies more on 'direct marketing' and less direct coercive tactics..both are complete anti-thesis to essential Indian/hindu concept of universal brotherhood..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2012 08:03

Pranav wrote:
OK, but the white masters need to be as much your brothers as the Paks.

There are an excess of Indians who are willing to be brothers of the US even when the US has a finger up our backsides. For me it makes eminent sense to be Pakistan's brother when Pakis have a finger up US backside

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 27 Jul 2012 08:08

shiv wrote:The US must be played, not sucked up to. The US has to fukkin well stop military aid to Pakistan and declare that Pakistan is not an ally. Nothing less.

Got to agree with u there...although I think you are mistaken in assuming that I propose turning us into Unkil's chela...but there is no point arguing that as it concerns two individuals and their perceptions of each other..

Having said that, in the past we never set such clear terms to Unkil....and offered some pot of gold at the end of rainbow if Unkil were to walk that mile..we were simply opposed to him as a matter of socialist, North-South, anti imperialist principle. That does not leave much room for Unkil to manoeuvre.

As for now, what can we do to turn Unkil around to our POV?

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 27 Jul 2012 08:14

shiv wrote:
There are an excess of Indians who are willing to be brothers of the US even when the US has a finger up our backsides. For me it makes eminent sense to be Pakistan's brother when Pakis have a finger up US backside

I dont think even Kamasutra has a position whereby you can have finger up the backside of someone that has his d.ck up your backside.