Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

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Lilo
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Lilo »

ramana wrote:If Pakistan implodes or explodes I want all parts absorbed back into India. Its crucial that no rump states are left to fester inimical interests.
2008 financial crisis in west slowed down monies for the EJ project to a trickle. This gave us a respite - although quite temporary.

Quite similarly an irreversible decline of the GCC economies - on account of oil running out, should precipitate the deconstruction of Islamist projects all over the world - and most spectacularly in our neibhourhood, unless this decline is supplanted by rise of another Islamist economic powerhouse (say turkey ?) with disposable monies - though this latter scenario is quite improbable.

The sight of their ascribed four fathers fighting like mad dogs for scraps in post oil gulf economies should be a shock big enough to cause the cognitive dissonance mechanisms to not cope and inner contradictions burst forth in the faithfools enmasse. That should be goodtime to give the coup de'grace to the paki project and absorb its peoples back into our fold.

So, It would be nice if the managed collapse of the paki project can be coincided with this drying up of gulf monies.Then again i think that this time frame is a highly guarded secret and is quite a bigunknown (atleast for me). It can be 20 ,40 or even 60 years before this can happen. Any informed guesses here ?
There is the another unknown regarding West's intent to supplant the failing Islamist project (even using its own monies if required).

Offcourse, the prerequsite is that India should be a prospering economic powerhouse by then and the values and virtues of our civilizaton as projected outside be strong enough to generate an aspirational longing to embrace and adopt them among the "uncivilized" barbarians of the world.

For all this we need to ride out the turmoil and the threats promised for us in the next few decades AND prosper.

Basically, iam arguing for a strong dose of realism with respect to our confrontation with Islamism , especially the GCC funded type.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by harbans »

Can a Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democratic, Republic of India be a great power under such a polity? can SD thrive?
We cannot be a Secular or Democratic Republic once that happens. It's only a matter of time that all we stand for gets unraveled. A 40% Muslim population cannot be prevented from putting Sharia and going greener and extracting juice with every quantum of Jihadi pressure some way or the other, and mostly this entails violence and limiting of civil liberties we consider sacred so far. It's like the cliched Virus analogy, a small amount the body can fight back and keep in check. A larger dose of the Virus is impossible for the immune system to cope with. There is a big difference between Sarva Dharma Asambhav and Dharma Sambhav.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by SSridhar »

Pertinent to the on-going discussion on absorption of pieces of a disintegrating Pakistan - from Nuggets of TFT
No confederation with India, please!

Reported in Nawa-e-Waqt a number of highly respectable citizens led by Dr MA Soofi said that Khyber Pakhtunkhwa politicians and railways minister Ghulam Bilour had gone bonkers recommending that Pakistan join India in a confederation. They said the statement was ghaddaari (treason) against Pakistan. They said that those like Bilour who recommended the confederation were on the payroll of the Americans.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by RajeshA »

SSridhar wrote:Pertinent to the on-going discussion on absorption of pieces of a disintegrating Pakistan - from Nuggets of TFT
No confederation with India, please!

Reported in Nawa-e-Waqt a number of highly respectable citizens led by Dr MA Soofi said that Khyber Pakhtunkhwa politicians and railways minister Ghulam Bilour had gone bonkers recommending that Pakistan join India in a confederation. They said the statement was ghaddaari (treason) against Pakistan. They said that those like Bilour who recommended the confederation were on the payroll of the Americans.
Image
Ghulam Ahmad Bilour
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by RajeshA »

harbans wrote:
Can a Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democratic, Republic of India be a great power under such a polity? can SD thrive?
We cannot be a Secular or Democratic Republic once that happens. It's only a matter of time that all we stand for gets unraveled. A 40% Muslim population cannot be prevented from putting Sharia and going greener and extracting juice with every quantum of Jihadi pressure some way or the other, and mostly this entails violence and limiting of civil liberties we consider sacred so far. It's like the cliched Virus analogy, a small amount the body can fight back and keep in check. A larger dose of the Virus is impossible for the immune system to cope with. There is a big difference between Sarva Dharma Asambhav and Dharma Sambhav.
You become the Virus for the Virus! What is stopping us? Is it values?
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by member_22872 »

I feel that, assimilating disintegrating parts of TSP into India needs more than wishful thinking by India, it wont just happen, there are bigger players like US, China, US lapdogs and even Iran, these might want parts of TSP or want puppet regimes in those parts. Take for Baluchistan, it is mineral rich, who wants to let it go? given that it has a port and can be used as gateway to ME?
We need to be very assertive, and show of force only can get what we want, else it is my opinion that not all of TSP can be in our hands, that means that those parts can be inimical or can be tailored and groomed to be inimical to Indian interests, and also TSP is but outer fringes of India, and hence should be claimed by India.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ShauryaT »

harbans wrote: We cannot be a Secular or Democratic Republic once that happens. It's only a matter of time that all we stand for gets unraveled. A 40% Muslim population cannot be prevented from putting Sharia and going greener and extracting juice with every quantum of Jihadi pressure some way or the other, and mostly this entails violence and limiting of civil liberties we consider sacred so far. It's like the cliched Virus analogy, a small amount the body can fight back and keep in check. A larger dose of the Virus is impossible for the immune system to cope with. There is a big difference between Sarva Dharma Asambhav and Dharma Sambhav.
Harban ji: Let us go with your prognosis. Since assimilating a 40% muslim population is out of the question, does it not make sense that we first learn to manage better the 14-15% we have today? Also, it is important that we do not provide more nutrition to feed this virus next door and hence all attempts at further islamization of TSP polity should be undertaken.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ShauryaT »

venug wrote:also TSP is but outer fringes of India, and hence should be claimed by India.
Never forget this, outer fringes of India are beyond the Hindu Kush and Makran coast. The vision of a greater India based on its civilizational history cannot be compromised, no matter how many generations it may take. Every inch if TSP land is sacred Indian land, not in our control.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Pakjabi landlord elite and the RAPE are like Ozymandias of the poem. They are needed for the moment as they stride the paths of history but they will make way for the new wave that is sure to follow.
Dont be too rigid in thinking about their 'stance'.

Where are the rajas of the 600 princely states now?

it was doctrinaire rigidity of Nehru that prevented a greater India.
He wanted his own French Revolution!
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote: it was doctrinaire rigidity of Nehru that prevented a greater India.
He wanted his own French Revolution!
Agreed again Nehru's deracinations were a cause for many things but how long do we have to live on borrowed but faulty diagnosis. Social amelioration was a declared goal of our constituent assembly. We needed social reform, however not at the cost of a wholesale rejection of the systems of the land. An honest and educated man would first seek to understand what we are and who we were. My first introduction to India as a teenager was with "The Discovery of India". I can safely attest that he was as deracinated as any deracinated souls of the era. This entire premise of looking at European history to decipher Indian issues, goals and objectives has to be rejected.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by chaanakya »

Yawn is reporting that Zardari has formally invited Indian PM Dr ManMohan Singh to Pakistan
Presidential Spokesperson Senator Farhatullah Babar said that the invitation has been extended through a letter sent to the Indian prime minister through Pakistan’s high commission in New Delhi.

The president in his letter also suggested to the Indian premier to visit his ancestral hometown on the occasion of birth celebration of Baba Guru Nanak.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by member_22872 »

Shaurya garu, agreed that western system needs to be replaced, but with what? right now we are not even comfortable with our own history. We are not there yet like Chinese, to even propose a system like Confucian system as an alternative. I think we have an identity crisis of our own or that we are not self confident ourselves at this point of time that we look up to western paradigms to emulate.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by harbans »

Since assimilating a 40% muslim population is out of the question, does it not make sense that we first learn to manage better the 14-15% we have today? Also, it is important that we do not provide more nutrition to feed this virus next door and hence all attempts at further islamization of TSP polity should be undertaken.
Yes indeed, we do have to attempt at managing our present Islamic population better. But what managing it well means different things to different people. To the Mulayams, Laloo's, Commies, Psec liberal elites it means something else, to a virulent right it means another and to most people who just get by life each day it means something else. It's the red lines of the last set we must seek to engage. The contract with a religious minority and the Constitution is and should be limited to equality of opportunity, non discrimination in jobs etc and is acceptable to most people including the most virulent right winger at least in India. These basic rights are also completely ignored for non muslim minorities in almost all Islamic countries. These basic rights we must offer our minorities and nothing else.

The Psec, Digvijay, Lalloo, Commie and Mulayam brigade are making vote bank hay while they enlarge privilege to minority groups at the expense of tax payers and upstagement of demographics in many regions. That must stop. The people must reengage lawmakers to hammer out a basic rights program that must not be exceeded in the quest for vote bank politicking. That is a clear and present problem that has emerged and time to tackle that is right. It does not entail any violence against minority groups or even taking away their basic rights like equality of opportunity in education, health, jobs, freedom to orderly worship etc. With that re engagement and simultaneously tightening the noose on volatile minority elements through a better and more efficient law and order mechanism it should be possible to 'manage' better our Islamic minorities.

With an assimilation of Paki populations making Islamic groups 40% or so, the above process will not be possible within our present set up. 500 years ago there would be around 5% Muslims in the entire subcontinent. Today the figure stands at 40% plus. The latter figure will go up in proportion even faster. What took 100 years before takes a decade now. Within 2 decades it is going to be 50% plus. An assimilated 50% population in the subcontinent means nothing but Sharia.

While you are right that an Islamized Pakistan is evidently a existential threat to India, it also means that as Pakistan Islamizes or Talibanizes more aam Indians (the category whose red lines i seek to engage) becomes more aware of the red lines and differences between the peoples of both countries. That awareness itself will propel a leadership quite different than what we see today. It should become common to say that a stable Pakistan is not in India's core interests. And the best way we go about is trying to manage different states within Pakistan itself.

India should not be considered some haven for Muslims. That is wrong thinking. Let Pakistan keep that claim. India should just be happy and satisfied it provides very basic simple rights to it's minority populations and nothing more than that. And frankly that is a lot.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by jamwal »

Collapse of Gulf economies due to whatever reason will not directly lead in to decline of Islamism. If anything, it may lead to even more stupidity on their part. Being rich or poor makes no difference.
Assimilating Islam is not an option either. You can't assimilate cancer
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ShauryaT »

venug wrote:Shaurya garu, agreed that western system needs to be replaced, but with what? right now we are not even comfortable with our own history. We are not there yet like Chinese, to even propose a system like Confucian system as an alternative. I think we have an identity crisis of our own or that we are not self confident ourselves at this point of time that we look up to western paradigms to emulate.
The correct diagnosis would be to call it an education crisis. We have to only work on taking our deracinations out the rest of it, fills in quite naturally. We have the baap of Confucian systems with us in our smritis and the mother of civilization secrets with our shrutis. We have "chosen" to ignore them. We have/had certain social weaknesses that need correction. Our failures were political and with the establishment of a political union, it is high time we understand and protect what binds and sustain us.

A nation-state is a new concept anyways - so let us use new tools but these tools have to be in the color of SD and promote and protect SD, not work against them. A civilization needs a core state to protect itself from others and the only purpose of India as a nation state is to promote this spiritual genius of SD, everything else is secondary. Islam today lacks this core state, something they lost post Ottoman. If we do not prepare properly and mange the inherent risks, then the 40% muslims can claim to be the new core state of Islam, being the largest muslim population on earth in a single unified state.

Start with the replacement of the preamble with our purusharthas as the purpose of the state and then let the constitution and all laws confirm to the principles of these objectives and see how the entire game changes. But this is also an exercise that needs the best of India's minds to work on and evolve a new modern dharma shastra. Atri ji and others have expounded on this a little but we clearly need more work here.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by harbans »

Start with the replacement of the preamble with our purusharthas as the purpose of the state and then let the constitution and all laws confirm to the principles of these objectives and see how the entire game changes. But this is also an exercise that needs the best of India's minds to work on and evolve a new modern dharma shastra. Atri ji and others have expounded on this a little but we clearly need more work here.
I am not sure whether that should be a preamble. Dharma is one thing that India consistently tried to defend from Parsuram to Ram to Krishna. Each was even ruthless in that endeavor. Each used different techniques that changed a bit from each Yuga. Our constitution, the American too one try and define the basics of the preamble. Vedanta, Buddhists texts clearly define what we understand of values by Dharma. The Universal Charter of Rights has started resembling the values that Dharma Shastras tried to inculcate in mass amongst populations in India, Tibet and SE Asia of yore with varying degrees of success. Western Enlightenment philosophers acknowledge that much of their thought can be credited to them reading up on the same ancient treatises.

However we need not take exactly the same treatise, we need to take up what 'values' in them we seek as a modern nation. For example do we take hate and revenge as templates or compassion and mercy in contrast. Which one suits the psyche of our peoples. While the former may be better suited to an Islamist mindset, the Dharmic one will always choose the latter for example. Similarly we should chart our basics or amend our constitution doing the same.

Beyond that the real problem lies in what sort of ruthlessness the State can use to prevent privilege or demands that go beyond the basic rights enshrined. Islamist states have been pretty ruthless to those minority groups or individuals that even demand basic rights. The endeavor to establish a Hindu as opposed to a Dharmic Rashtra will never find enough takers for real in India. Any endeavor that divides Dharmics of whatever hue must be resisted in India. Ultimately we have to assimilate the 14% minority under a basic Dharmic banner which should resemble the basic Universal Charter of Rights for all, but any demands beyond that should be dealt with a degree of ruthlessness. It is only under those circumstances and constitutional charters that any quantum assimilation of BD/ Pakibarians should be attempted. Any attempt short of those basics is a death warrant for Dharma in Bharat.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Supratik »

Actually it is not impossible to integrate parts of Pak. NA and POK are relatively sparsely populated and are legally part of India. So
if you can occupy it, you can flood it with settlers. Sindh minus the Karachi-Hyderabad axis has about 25 million population, 20% of which is Hindu. If you occupy it Sindhis who left can resettle plus immigration. Balochistan minus the part Northern part upwards of
Quetta (which is Pashtun majority) has only 6 million population which can be flooded with immigrants. Only Pakjab is difficult.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Ardeshir »

Aren't we getting way ahead of ourselves? Successive governments have failed to even repopulate Kashmiris in "Indian-Administered Kashmir", let alone populate Indians from other states there. All such discussions are moot, atleast until a generation takes over that has had no indoctrination into Nehruvian "ideals".
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Supratik »

Yes, they are moot but I am saying it is not impossible. Neither is disintegration of Pak impossible. 1300 years ago no one thought a country called Pak will emerge where it is now. Not even bin qasim.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Ardeshir »

Yes, possibilities are nearly endless, however, we are pissing in the wind here.
The powers-that-be in their infinite Nehruvian wisdom have not even settled Kashmiris back. If we haven't been able to alter the demographics of a region we control, what really is the point of discussing the break-up of Pakistan and/or assimilation of its population within our own?
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Prem »

RajeshA wrote:url=http://www.thefridaytimes.com/beta3/tft ... 27&page=14]Pertinent to the on-going discussion on absorption of pieces of a disintegrating Pakistan[/url] - from Nuggets of TFT
No confederation with India, please!


KP Province can pass the resolution in thier lagislative assembly and let GOI accept their request . Baluchi and Sindhi can follow while we sort out the Pakjabi terrorists by quarantining and reserving the land for elders and children only for 20 years under article 072P.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ShauryaT »

Harbas Ji: I will x-post in deracination thread and continue and we may continue on this topic there.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Mujib ur Rehman is quoted in his unfinished memoirs as writing:
“We Bengali Muslims have two sides,” Mujib wrote early on. “One is our belief that we are Muslims and the other that we are Bengalis.” Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto mockingly tried to exploit the imagined conflict between those two aspects in 1971. If “Muslim Bangla” (his term) felt so strongly about being Bengali, Bhutto taunted Mujib, it should join West Bengal. Mujib and his Awami League followers disproved him. Their greatest achievement was to demonstrate that it is possible to be a Muslim and a Bengali, and that though distinct from a Hindu Bengali, the definition does not need to be underwritten by either India or Pakistan. Not for nothing did the special Bengali Muslim constituency of the Bangladesh he created call Sheikh Mujibur Rahman Bangabandhu

Source: Bbok Review in Pioneer


The oddity is TSP is now Pakjab with Sindh, Baloch and Khyber-Pastunwa attached by the Brits to make the TSP state viable, for Pakjab by itself is not viable as a state.

Pakjab is Punjabi and Muslim just as Bangladesh is Bengali and Muslim.

However this has not yet been realized by the Pakjabis who rule TSP.
They need to let the others seek self determination and let them go if they want to survive.
The idea of nation-state is overpowering the idea of an ummah based nation-state.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Nightwatch 23 Aug 2012

http://www.kforcegov.com/Services/IS/Ni ... 00163.aspx


Pakistan: The former Pakistani Ambassador to the United States said Pakistan and the US should "divorce", in an address to a US "think tank." Ambassador Hussain Haqqani justified his recommendation that relations should be downgraded, in part, on the basis of a Pew Research Center survey in June that found that 75% of Pakistanis polled consider the US to be an enemy of Pakistan.

According to the account in The News, Haqqani said it was just as unrealistic for Pakistanis to think that the United States would side with Pakistan by launching war on India as it was for the United States to think Pakistan would give up its nuclear weapons or sever ties with extremists. He said, "Equally unrealistic is that Pakistan ... will give up support for jihadi groups that it deems to be a subconventional (sic) force multiplier for regional influence."

Haqqani described himself as a member of a small minority of Pakistanis who favor strong ties to the US.

Comment: In NightWatch's experience, the Pew Center survey significantly understates the extent and depth of Pakistani hostility towards the United States. The implications of the survey are far reaching. They mean that any Pakistani government that cooperates with the US is acting against the will of an overwhelming majority of Pakistani voters.

The only way that is possible is because the Pakistan Army wields power over national security policy and the civilian government does what it is told. The Army needs US military assistance to maintain the fantasy that it defends Pakistan from India, although everyone with sense knows the last thing India wants is more Muslims and tribal minorities.

In fact, the Pakistan Army generals need US military assistance to maintain the Army's control of Pakistani national security policy. Haqqani's address exposes that Pakistani national security policy serves no strategic US interests and will not change. What he also might have said is that US involvement in South Asia in the past decade has strengthened Pakistani ties to China.
This is exactly the BRF consensus in the role of the Kabila guards and how they enslave the Paki population with Western to be precise Anglo-Saxon support.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

X-post...
shiv wrote:
Jhujar wrote:http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2012_pg3_6

Taking back the Pakistani space Between Mush and The Tush

( Ass ta far Gulla, Paki still stuck on partition!)

Jinnah as it did because the Congress party under Gandhi and Nehru had made up its mind to get rid of the Muslim majority provinces on the basis of the logic of cut the head to get rid of the headache. Instead of agreeing to the elegant three-tier federation that was devised to keep India united, the Congress party bosses, including Nehru and Gandhi, decided that a smaller more manageable Muslim population was in India’s best interest. Hence, they let go of the Muslim majority provinces, which were willing to come in the federation provided that they had a certain degree of provincial autonomy with residuary powers resting with the provinces (as opposed to the centre where Gandhi and Nehru wanted them).
:rotfl: This shitistani is saying, in effect "If only my father had slept with the maid rather than my mother, things would have been so good"
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by anupmisra »

ramana wrote:the Muslim majority provinces...which were willing to come in the federation provided that they had a certain degree of provincial autonomy with residuary powers resting with the provinces.
Paki (and islamic) history is based on an ill-conceived assumption that (and I am borrowing this from someone's quote in the TSP thread recently) the precept of "One man - One vote" is an anathema to their religious well being and existence, and therefore must be resisted violently with undeliverable counter demands that will only grow from the absurd to the preposterous. Indian states within the Indian federal structure have more provincial autonomy than the artificial provinces in pakiland. One unit, anyone?
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

A few dated articles in Pak Tribune

Aakar Patel

Punjab's Partition, Castes and Martial Races
The writer is a director with Hill Road Media and a former editor of the Mumbai-based English newspaper Mid Day and the Gujarati paper Divya Bhaskar [email protected]
We were looking at the importance of caste in explaining the dominance of the army in Pakistan.

At Partition, Pakistan got two-thirds of Punjab, while India got one-third. More Punjabis live in Pakistan than in India. However, in the Forbes list of the world’s billionaires, there are four Indians from the Indian side of undivided Punjab. They are the Singhs of Ranbaxy, Mittal of Airtel, Jindal of Jindal steel and Thapar of Avantha. There is no Punjabi from Pakistan. Why? Because the conversion of Hindus has been the conversion of castes, not individuals (for a moment, let us discard the myth Muslims feed themselves about their Arab/Persian/Central Asian origins). All four of these individuals are from trading communities, Baniya and Khatri.

Few mercantile Hindu castes took up Islam. The Lohanas of Gujarat, who produce India’s and Karachi’s great Memon/Vora/Khoja communities, are among those who did. Lohanas dominate the economy of Karachi and its stock market. But not many Punjabi trading castes took up Islam. All Baniyas and most Khatris in Punjab remained Hindu while a few became Sikh.

My hypothesis is that the division of the Punjabi nation in 1947 produced a Pakistani Punjab that was heavily weighted in favour of the martial castes. The trading castes, which tend to be more pragmatic and balance society’s extremism mostly left to come to India. This has produced the imbalance which explains Pakistan’s fondness for a state dominated by soldiers. Gen Pervez Kayani runs the state’s foreign policy, security policy and most of its economic policy because the majority of Punjabis are comfortable with the idea of a warrior being in charge.

India is ruled by a Punjabi from the Khatri trading caste, Manmohan Singh of Chakwal. The question is: Can caste be a predictor for such things? Yes it is. I did two studies that demonstrated it to me. The first was on the castes of the 55 Indians in the Forbes list of billionaires. The second was on the castes of those Indians who did honour killing. (They can be found here and here). A reading of them will show to what extent the behaviour of Indians in these aspects is predictable by caste. I see no reason for this to be different in Pakistan, an area that used to be India till 65 years ago and has the same culture.

In India, honour killing is done by particular castes that feel honour. The Baniyas and Brahmins don’t murder their daughters for falling in love. It is the peasant, mainly the Jat, who does this. Even within the peasantry, there are some that don’t do honour killing because there’s no honour to be had in their culture. The peasant from Gujarat does not do honour killing because unlike the Punjabi, his culture is mercantile.

If we were to look at the castes of famous Pakistanis, we would begin to see a pattern. To illustrate this, I’ll name some Pakistanis from trading castes and you will see what I mean. Pervez Hoodbhoy (Lohana/Khoja), Abdus Sattar Edhi (Lohana/Memon) and Najam Sethi (Khatri). These three men represent the best of Pakistan.

It is not my intention to say that the qualities of these three great men emanate entirely from their caste. But the fact is that their castes have a culture of sobriety that produces such men with ease. This is difficult for the peasant castes, who dominate the population of both India and Pakistan. Their caste and cultural traditions are about honour, not pragmatism.

General Kayani, who is a Punjabi from the martial Gakhar caste, has made the statement that “Pakistan’s honour will not be traded for prosperity”. Only a warrior would make that statement and only a nation of warriors would accept it. In India, we have far more people like Hoodbhoy and Sethi and Edhi to counter those Indians who think like Kayani.

Pakistan’s problem isn’t that it doesn’t have any people who can resist the warrior-like tendencies of the state. Its problem is that it doesn’t have enough of them because of the partition of Punjab.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 8th, 2012.

Salman Rashid's two pieces:

Arab Origins
Every single Muslim in the subcontinent believes s/he is of Arab descent. If not direct Arab descent, then the illustrious ancestor had come from either Iran or Bukhara. Interestingly, the ancestor is always a great general or a saint. Never ever have we heard anyone boasting of an intellectual for a forebear. We hear of the progeny of savage robber kings, but there is no one who claims Abu Rehan Al-Beruni or Ibn Rushd as a distant sire.

Arab origin is the favourite fiction of all subcontinental Muslims. Most claim their ancestor arrived in Sindh with the army under Mohammad bin Qasim (MbQ). But, I have heard of lineages reaching back to Old Testament prophets as well. An elderly Janjua (Rajput), from the Salt Range told me of a forefather named Ar, a son of the Prophet Isaac. Ar, he said, was the ancestor of the races that spoke the Aryan tongue!

Touted as a local intellectual, this worthy was unmindful of the fact that Aryan was not a tribal name but a linguistic classification. Neither could he tell me how the name Ar, not being in the Old Testament, had reached him. He insisted this name headed his family tree and was, therefore true. The chart, written on a piece of rather newish paper had been, the Janjua insisted, copied from an old original. The original was of course destroyed after the copy was made.

The Arains flaunt Salim al Raee as their father — the clan being called after his surname. A great and valiant general in the army of MbQ, this man was from an agricultural family of Syria, so the Tarikh-e-Araian tells us. Closer to our times, the Arains are indeed acclaimed for their green thumb for which reason Shah Jehan relocated a large bunch of them to mind the newly laid out Shalimar Garden of Lahore. Today, they are a very rich clan in Baghbanpura.

The Tarikh expounds on this fictional ancestor’s noble background and courage in battle to the extent that he almost outshines MbQ. But it does not give us any source or reference for the rubbish that sullies its pages. There are two authentic histories of the Arab conquest of Sindh. Ahmad Al Biladhuri’s Futuh ul Buladan (written circa 860) and Hamid bin Ali Kufi’s Tarikh-e-Hind wa Sindh, translated first into the Persian as Fatehnama Sindh and then into Sindhi as the Chachnama (written circa 1200).

There are dozens of names sprinkled across the pages of both works, but no mention is made of a blue-blooded warrior called Salim al Raee. There are other histories besides these two works which also disregard this name for the only reason that such a man never existed.

The Awans, similarly, have a fictional ancestor called Qutb Shah from the line of the last caliph of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs. My friend Kaiser Tufail, an Arain, has had himself genetically tested from the US. He has no trace of Arab blood. His line comes from what is now Uzbekistan and has lived from early historic times in the subcontinent. The rest of us of this clan will see similar results should we go through this exercise. Kaiser had his son-in-law, an Awan, also tested. He, too, is singularly clean of Arab genes.

Most of us are the progeny of converts. In their need to escape the discrimination of the so-called higher castes, our ancestors converted to a religion that in theory claimed to profess human equality regardless of colour or caste. I use the words ‘in theory’ because even as the Arabs converted our ancestors to Islam, they discriminated against them for being “Hindis” as we learn this from Ibn Batuta’s own prejudices. And he is not alone.

Consequently, even after conversion, my ancestors, poor agriculturists, were looked down upon by the Arabs and even those who had converted earlier the same way as they were by the Brahmans when they professed their Vedic belief. Within a generation or two, those early converts began the great lie of Arab ancestry to be equal to other converts and the Arabs. This became universal with time.

The challenge then is for all those, Baloch, Pathan, Punjabi et al, who have invented illegitimate fathers for ourselves to get ourselves tested and know the bitter truth.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 7th, 2012.

Pari Nagar
In 1984, I saw the ruins of Pari Nagar for the first time ever. And what a haunting, mystifying and awesome place it was. Smothered by thickly growing mesquite in the low ground, by the sand dune on which, the Virawah Rangers mess (Tharparker) sat. Here was an area of perhaps, two or three square kilometres choked with ruins constructed either from kiln-fired bricks or neatly dressed gray limestone.

There were stone foundations of houses some clearly palatial, others humbler; several ruined temples; arched doorways and, the most intriguing of all, a rectangular stone platform with a free-standing arch. The remains of the lintels and pillars, only a few then in place, the rest in the dust, were all richly carved with motifs that we still see in the Chaukandi-style tombs of Sindh and Balochistan.

Pari Nagar was established as a port way back in the 6th century BCE (by another estimation, 400 years later), on an arm of the Rann of Cutch coming right up into the desert. On this inland sea did Pari Nagar become a thriving port whose ships sailed to distant marts. Its Jain merchants, assiduous and honourable in matters of commerce and trade, made good money and the city flourished.

In the winter of 1222, glorious Pari Nagar met the beginning of its end. The cowardly Jalaluddin, erstwhile king of Khwarazm, fleeing before a general of Changez Khan’s army, turned up outside the gates of this city. Defeated, humiliated and pursued like a hunted beast, Jalaluddin in his frustration had already vented his spleen on the cities of Multan, Uch and Bhakkar. Looting and sacking, he had left behind smouldering ruins of those once great cities. He did likewise at Pari Nagar.


But after Jalaluddin withdrew towards Bhambore (which, too, he sacked), Pari Nagar rebounded right back. Powered by the riches of its Jain merchant class, the port city soon bustled anew. Another century was to pass before life slowly began to ebb away from the lively streets and market squares of Pari Nagar. The inland sea receded until it had completely forsaken the port. No longer could ships sail up into the desert. The commerce of Pari Nagar died; its merchant class forsook it for other places. The walls of the city fell silent, wild growth overtook the ruins and the abandoned buildings of the once beautiful city crumbled. Only its name, Pari Nagar, and tales of its grandeur refused to leave the collective memory of the people of Thar.

That was how I found it in April 1984: in the bazaar of Virawah men had tales and tales without end to tell of the past glory of Pari Nagar. Later, I checked with the Department of Archaeology in Karachi, but no investigation had taken place on this fabulous site and there was little to learn of its life in those far off times.

In the summer of 2009, I returned to Virawah with the hope of photographing the ruins of Pari Nagar. Other than one ruinous Jain temple and some scattered pieces of masonry, I found nothing amid the thick undergrowth. The place had been picked clean of the ruins. The Rangers man accompanying me said, the locals had over the years taken away the stones and bricks to make their own houses. Later, in the Virawah bazaar I found this to be true.

In anger, I turned on the Ranger: if he and his colleagues had spotted a young woman and man holding hands and strolling among the ruins, they would have belaboured them for obscenity. And here, the greatest obscenity, the pillaging of the cultural heritage of this sorry land took place right under their eyes and nobody moved.

But the Rangers in the desert are not the only ones to blame. The people of Pakistan are spectacularly blind when it comes to heritage and history. We embrace a false, contrived history; we reject our true heritage. That is the way we have been trained for the past six decades.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 14th, 2012.
ShauryaT
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ShauryaT »

The above articled by Aakar Patel, gels with my understanding of which communities converted in Punjab and Sindh, it were the kshatriya communities that eventually did so, leading to a lasting rule of muslims in the area. The BIA recruited heavily from these areas biased from the race based martial races theory. One will find similar patterns in the Ganga valley too. Genetic memory is a powerful thing, its traits and patterns take a long time to change. The biggest mistake of the then communities was to depend upon Kshatriya communities alone for their defense. Once these defenses fell - it was very hard to regain political power in these regions. It took 100's of years for Sikhism to rise against the Moghuls. There are lessons to learn from these episodes. Reading KS Lal on this matter, provides some detail data points.
ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

http://pak-watch.blogspot.com/

JohneeG's op-ed
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Friday, August 31, 2012
The Root of all problems in Pakistan
This has been posted by a friend, JohneeG

I think I have zeroed in on the root of all the problems of the Pakistanis(imagined or real) which has lead to its present state and which will lead it to further ruin(unless and until it is addressed).

I think the problem started right at the time when the idea of Pakistan(as an Islamic state) started. No, I am not opposing the Two-nation theory(and no, I am not supporting it either). I am not going into the merits or demerits of two nation theory. I won't criticize the idea of religion as the basis of a nation either.

Let us, for the sake of analysis, make some assumptions:
a) Two- nation theory is valid(or justified).
b) the idea of religion as a basis for a nation is also flawless.
c) Islam is perfect and muslims don't kill each other(and further, that muslims love each other).

I know that each of the above assumptions is bogus(or at least highly debatable). But, lets assume them regardless, because I wish to make a different point.

Now, people may complain that if we assume all that there is nothing left to criticize. I disagree.

Anyway, the important point is that a regular Pakistani has made all these assumptions. So then, what is the source of his takleef?

The root of all the takleef is that no one has yet clearly defined what is 'Islam', who are 'muslims'. In any other country, this may not be a major issue. But, in a country which claims to be founded for 'muslims' by 'muslims', this becomes a major issue.

The sectarian war that we are witnessing within Pakistan is the direct result of this lack of clarity.

This question should have been raised when the idea of Pakistan was first floated. The Brits or the Congress must have asked the 'Muslim' League to define 'muslim'. They did not. Jinnah claimed that muslims were completely different from Hindus in every way(and hence, need a different nation). But, curiously, he never defined what is 'Islam' according to them.

One may ask, "Why is there a need to define 'Islam' or 'muslim'?"
The simple answer is that because there are diverging definitions of what constitutes 'Islam' or 'muslim'. Each sect has its own definitions of 'Islam' or 'muslim'. Each sect considers other sects as 'munafiqs'. Munafiq means a religious hypocrite who pretends to be a 'muslim' when he is not. And in Islam, the only people who are hated worse than kafirs are munafiqs.

Some of the major sects that claim to be 'muslims' are: Sunni, Shia, Kharijis, Druze, Alawi, Ismali, Ahmadiyyah, Sufi ...etc. I have come across one site that claims there are 73 sects in Islam.

What is more, each sect has many different schools. Each school again differs with others on the definition of 'Islam' or 'muslim'. To give an example: Deobandi, Barlevi, Wahabi, Salafi...etc are all sunni schools.

Among all these variant claimants, who is correct? Whose version of Islam is correct? The importance of this question cannot be over-estimated, especially when a nation itself claims that it is primarily based on this idea.

It should have been properly defined at the time when the idea of Pakistan was first floated. That was not done. Maybe muslim league wanted as many people to support the idea as was possible. So, they may have cunningly and/or cautiously avoided defining 'Islam'. But, once they achieved their goal of carving out a new country from India, they should have legally(and constitutionally) defined terms like 'Islam' and 'muslim'.

They did not do that. Instead, there was power struggle between various regional factions. Mohajirs had the initial grip on power. Very early, pakjabis(using their control of on army) sidelined the mohajirs and seized the power. Large demographics of Bangladeshis(or East Pakistanis) was becoming a threat to the pakjabi domination. So, there was a power struggle which culminated in the genocide of East Pakistanis by the pakjabi army. Ultimately, East Pakistan seceded.

The country was broken. As a direct reaction, the islamization of Pakistan was further fueled. Pakistanis believed that they failed because they were not 'islamic' enough(not because of pakjabi genocide of banglas). So, there was further radicalization of the Pakistani society and state(including army).

But, the basic question was not raised by anybody: what is 'Islam'? or who is 'muslim'?

Without answering this question, Pakistanis assumed that they had to resort to 'more Islam'. So, each sect (and each school within a sect) radicalized itself. Over time, the clash was inevitable.

Even in a liberal polytheistic environment(like the Hindu society), such differences can lead to irritation. In a monotheistic environment, the effects are amplified. In a radicalized situation, they most certainly lead to violent clashes.

Since there is no clear definition(especially by the establishment), the only other way to prove that one sect/school is right and others are wrong is by defeating it(or eliminating it) in a war. This is the idea prevalent in that society.

This has resulted in its present chaos. Each week witnesses at least one major sectarian incident killing people. There are bombs blasting each other's 'mosques'.

Right now, sunnis have control of the establishment, so they are ahead in the race. Others are suffering heavy causalities. They face either subjugation or elimination unless they are able to reverse the trend.

The full extent of effects of differences among the various schools has not yet come forth. It is another time bomb ticking.

In conclusion, even if we assume that:
a) the Two-nation theory is valid(or justified).
b) the idea of religion as a basis for a nation is also flawless.
c) Islam is perfect and muslims don't kill each other(and further, that muslims love each other).

Pakistanis first have an important task of defining 'Islam' and 'muslim'. Once they define them, then the assumptions can be put to test.

Unless there is an equal equal of every Pakistani problem with corresponding Indian problems, the WKKs (Wagah Kandle Kissers) are not happy. So, let me give an equal equal of the above Pakistani problem:

India's social and political problems are partly due to lack of official definition of 'secularism'.

Let us assume that 'secularism' is perfect and it is the correct method for India. But, there must be official definition of 'secularism'.

What is 'secularism'? How will it be implemented?

These two questions must be answered in detail. Without an official definition, each one(person/party/community) comes up with their own definition of secularism which leads to confusion.

Of course, some sections prefer this confusion(just like in Pakistan some people prefer confusion over what exactly is 'Islam'). At the same time, they will claim that 'secularism' is absolutely above reproach (just as they claim the same about 'Islam'). The essential goal is to keep the idea of 'secularism' flexible enough to twist it to suit their needs (the same purpose is served by 'Islam' for establishment in Pakistan)
Welcome to the Pak Watch group.
johneeG
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by johneeG »

^^Ramana Garu,
thanks for the support and appreciation. :)
ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

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X-Post....
jamwal wrote:THE PAKISTAN ARMY IN EAST PAKISTAN-1971 WAR
UNDERSTANDING THE 1971 CRISIS

COMMENTS ON BOOK REVIEW OF AHMAD FARUQUI ON GENERAL NIAZIS BOOK
PUBLISHED DEFENCE JOURNAL KARACHI JUNE 2000
BY

MAJOR AGHA H AMIN (RETIRED)

http://indopakmilitaryhistory.blogspot. ... istan.html


Bengal did not become independent because of Bengali Hindu fears about being in a Muslim majority independent Bengal. Thus the connection with “Two Nation Theory” was not the reason why Bengal was divided in 1947. Mr Jinnah saw in 1946 i.e the inadvisability of having Bengal in Pakistan without Calcutta. Something that the Pakistani policy makers failed to grasp till 1971! It is to Jinnah’s credit that he brought Bengalis in the army by raising the first two battalions of the East Bengal regiment. A process, which was stopped by Ayub from 1950 to 1966, as a result of which Pakistan Army instead of becoming a broad based national army like the post 1947 Indian Army, remained, a Punjabi dominated army. A factor which contributed a great deal to the separation of East Pakistan. The Two Nation Theory was created due to certain reasons which at that time were valid albeit relatively. It did not exist in 711 AD or in 1857 but was enunciated in the period 1860-1940. In 1971 it was no longer valid at least for the Bengali Muslims and they rejected it.
My second contention pertains to the author’s quoting a Pakistani General stating that “Never before had a Muslim army surrendered before a Hindu army or the assertion that the Pakistan Army was a bearer of traditions of the early Muslim conquerors of India! This assertion is absolutely false ! The problem is that we have to get out of this “Martial Races Syndrome”. The vast bulk of Pakistan army consists of men with Hindu or Buddhist ancestry! As a matter of fact the Hindu Rajputs of the north of Chenab area from where the vast bulk of Pakistan army is recruited were far more difficult to govern before they were converted to Islam!

The only positive connection that these races had with the Muslim Turks was the fact that one of their members killed Sultan Ghauri! Even the Pathans, the second largest group of Pakistani soldiers, had little connection with Turkish invasions of India! Babar did not like the Pathans and the Pathans generally remained in conflict with the Muslim governments in Delhi! Many Muslim forts surrendered to the Hindu Marathas during the Maratha war in the south. The Marathas captured Delhi long before 1971 in mid -18th century and held it with uneven gaps till 1803 once the British captured it. As a matter of fact the problem is that most of our worthy generals have not read military history of the sub-continent. The Pakistan Army is not the descendant of the Turk armies that invaded India! Of course with the exceptions of some genuinely Mughal villages like Lehr Sultanpur etc! The Pakistan Army is a chip from the block of the old mercenary British army with its origins in the “Mutiny Loyalty of Punjabi Muslim Pathan and Sikh soldiers” who attacked Delhi for the first time in September 1857 and in phenomenal staunchness of Punjabi soldiers while facing the Muslim Turks in WW One! The Punjabis once totalled as Muslim Hindu and Sikh, as an ethnic group became the largest single group and the vast bulk of the British Indian Army in the period 1883-1911.

The only positive connection that these races had with the Muslim Turks was the fact that one of their members killed Sultan Ghauri! Even the Pathans, the second largest group of Pakistani soldiers, had little connection with Turkish invasions of India! Babar did not like the Pathans and the Pathans generally remained in conflict with the Muslim governments in Delhi! Many Muslim forts surrendered to the Hindu Marathas during the Maratha war in the south. The Marathas captured Delhi long before 1971 in mid -18th century and held it with uneven gaps till 1803 once the British captured it. As a matter of fact the problem is that most of our worthy generals have not read military history of the sub-continent. The Pakistan Army is not the descendant of the Turk armies that invaded India! Of course with the exceptions of some genuinely Mughal villages like Lehr Sultanpur etc! The Pakistan Army is a chip from the block of the old mercenary British army with its origins in the “Mutiny Loyalty of Punjabi Muslim Pathan and Sikh soldiers” who attacked Delhi for the first time in September 1857 and in phenomenal staunchness of Punjabi soldiers while facing the Muslim Turks in WW One! The Punjabis once totalled as Muslim Hindu and Sikh, as an ethnic group became the largest single group and the vast bulk of the British Indian Army in the period 1883-1911.


In 1883 there were about 34.09 % or 120 Punjabi companies (25 Punjabi Muslims, 18 Punjabi Dogra Hindus and 77 Punjabi Sikhs) and 15 Pathan companies out of the total 352 infantry companies of the Regular Bengal Army. By 1911 the Indian Army was a more than 50 % Punjabi army although never a Muslim majority army. In 1929 thanks to Pathan and Ranghar defiance of the British in WW One the Punjabi percentage (divided into roughly one third Muslim Sikh and Hindu) of the Indian Army rose to 54.36% if the Gurkhas were included and to 61.8 % if Gurkhas were excluded. The Pathan share at this time stood at 4.02 % out of which all were not ethnic or linguistic Pathans. (Refers- Map on page-96 - Report of Indian Statutory Commission-Volume One- Calcutta - Government of India - Publication Branch - 1930). The low caste Hindu Marathas militarily defeated the Mughals long before 1971 and their hold on India was finally successfully challenged not by any Punjabi or Pathan Muslim army but by the Bengal and Madras armies of the English East India Companies at Laswari and Assaye respectively in 1803!

The problem is that we have forgotten that all territory west of Aligarh district (including Aligarh), including Delhi Agra Punjab and Frontier was under Hindu Maratha or non-Muslim Sikh rule till 1803 or as late as 1849!

There were no martial races in Muslim majority Punjab, at least to rule Punjab till 1849! So much for the martial traditions of Muslims of Indo-Pak! It was all situational, there being no martial races! But somehow in Pakistan by 1950s myth became mixed with reality and myth finally gained the upper hand ! The winter of our discontent finally came in the killing fields of Bengal in December 1971!
Punjab later dubbed as a martial province with a Muslim majority was firmly under Sikh domination despite the fact that the Sikhs were a 8 or 9 % minority! During Sikh rule mosques were often used as military magazines, including the famous Badshahi mosque and some times plastered with cow dung (Pages -347 to 360— “Lahore -Past and Present” - M.Baqir, Punjabi Adabi Academy, Lahore—1984)as happened with the Golden Mosque of Kashmiri Bazaar Lahore ! So much for the martial traditions, just 122 years ago, of the largely Punjabi Muslim army that surrendered in East Pakistan! The problem ironically was the fact that the same West Pakistanis, who despised Bengalis as non-Martial race in March 1971, at least were not as martial in 1849, as they became in 1914, because of British recruitment policies and situational reasons!



This blog, even it's written by a Paki ex-serviceman is worth every minute spent
:rotfl:

Read it all
ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Mohd Ayoob and the theory of Subaltern Realism


Case for Subaltern Realism

Lets see how it applies to TSP.
The subaltern realism theory advocates that third world states are generally weak, and are often economically and militarily dependent on external benefactors, mostly industrialized states. Therefore, third world states are more concerned with relative gains and short-term benefits than long-term benefits and absolute gains.

Additionally, third world states interactions are limited to their immediate neighborhood, especially in the security sphere, and as such they will choose to interact with other states who possess similar characteristics. They are therefore much less concerned with security matters of an international level.[1]
Only thing is TSP finds NoKo and PRC as its hang out partners and US as the biggest daddy.

KSA, UK and PRC are little daddies.
So S-R applies partially to TSP even thought its core behavior matches the theory.
ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

My assessment of TSP Circa 2008

Pakistan 2008
ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

brihaspati wrote:http://www.criticalthreats.org/pakistan ... er-25-2012
An interesting map of the protests in Pakiland. The hotspots are an indication of the Islamist strength and organized strength to boot. They are along the Afghan border and along the Indian border - and more concentrated in the north proximal to the Pindi heartland. That will be the base for the next Paki jihad.
RamaY
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by RamaY »

Pakistan is nothing but an asuric Hindu in the likes of Mahishasura.

Only an awakaned Bharatiya Nation can kill the kaliyuga Mahishasura.
johneeG
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by johneeG »

RamaY wrote:Pakistan is nothing but an asuric Hindu in the likes of Mahishasura.

Only an awakaned Bharatiya Nation can kill the kaliyuga Mahishasura.
Saar,
I think an asuric Hindu would be much more dangerous, potent and threatening. No, the pakis are not of that caliber. They are silly morons who have been used as pawn in the imperial games of others. The elites are in it for the money. The structure is able to survive primarily because the current Indian system wants it to survive. In fact, it is on record that our PM says pakis' survival is vital. And I don't think they are empty words. The support of fourfathers for the pakis is secondary.

Of course, there are still several Hindu elements that survive in the pakiland despite all the claims. That just shows the inherent strength of Hindu cultural aspects which are deeply entrenched. Also, one needs to remember that of all the 'prophets' in the world, no one has ever really founded an entirely new culture from bottom to top. Instead, they have simply highjacked a culture and then subverted it to suit their agenda and claims. So, this paki behaviour is par for the course.

Finding a whole new culture is not an easy task by any means. This is one more pointer towards a single ancient source for all cultures/religions/philosophies of the world, which were over a time highjacked and subverted by various powers and prophets to suit their agenda. So, if we trace the steps back, then the oldest least changed culture must be the mother culture of all the cultures/religions/philosophies of the world. That means, any culture/religion/philosophy that traces its origin from a specific event/time-period/founder/prophet can be ruled out.

So, the question is: Is there any ancient culture(that has preserved itself from change) and that does not trace its origins from a specific event/time-period/founder/prophet?
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote:
brihaspati wrote:http://www.criticalthreats.org/pakistan ... er-25-2012
An interesting map of the protests in Pakiland. The hotspots are an indication of the Islamist strength and organized strength to boot. They are along the Afghan border and along the Indian border - and more concentrated in the north proximal to the Pindi heartland. That will be the base for the next Paki jihad.
In my judgement Pakistan really is in the middle of a civil war. Can't say if it will get worse or not.

The protest maps linked above are interesting because they are widespread cases of Pakistanis being violent and destructive in Pakistan about issues that are outside Pakistan.

If you think abut how a mob collects and becomes destructive - you are pisko-wise looking at how individuals in that mob are roused into a frenzy of anger and destroy symbols of the enemy. The burning of effigies or a flag is one such symbol. Attacking a US embassy would also be a "genuine symbol" of the enemy in this case. But looting banks, burning cinemas and other violence indicates that individuals in every mob are venting anger and frustration at a lot more than just the named enemy. And the inability of the police or armed forces to stop that indicates a further breakdown in Pakistani society.

If the entire country can mobilize mobs over a cause it definitely indicates anger at something. But the destruction of Pakistani property and the associated inability of the government to clamp down shows a curious kind of symbiosis between government/army and Pakistanis. A man who burns a cinema or loots and ATM may not necessarily be angry about the movie but is angry enough and has enough leisure to riot and loot. The security forces and qovernment who cannot stop this shows that the government hides behind the "popular sentiment" excuse for its inability to stop violence in Pakistan.

To me, what this indicates is that all violence in Pakistan will always be in the name of popular Islamic sentiment because no Pakistani can object to any amount of destruction in the name of Islam. But the actual destruction is always Pakistani property and results in dead Pakistanis.

Now why should any Indian want the violence in extremism in Pakistan to stop? If Pakistanis are damaging themselves in the name of Islam, they have every right to do that and we have no right to object. It is a mistae to arue that "normal people" would not become violent and would show moderation. Pakistanis are not normal people. This has nothing to do with Islam. They have no education, no electricity, no trains, no law, no jobs, no future. But they have Islam which no one can argue with. So they show their anger in the name of Islam and damage Pakistani property.

Tell me - did you do this? Clearly you did not. It is a series of army governments who have taken Pakistan to where it is. I would encourage the Islamic people of Pakistan to take out their anger against their cowardly army that is not doing its job fighting Indian kafirs and American infidels.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by vishvak »

The areas around which Pakistan has shown serious violence, as it is with any data sets and indicators, could be an pointer for cause of violence itself. This should be treated as a matter of urgency to upgrade security measures available at locations across near & far and as such for overall situation for stable border for Indians.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

X-Post....
shiv wrote:
harbans wrote:Shiv Ji, what do you make out of the recent spate of mainstream articles that are attacking the core of the ideology as the reason responsible for the barbaric acts perpetrated across in Islams interaction with the lesser green and Kufr. 3 years ago or even 2 let alone 10 these types of articles would be considered 'Islamophobic'..but over the last few months there has been a spate of them. The Kufr is hitting back..rightly. But do you think anything is going to come out of it? It's actually quite an open question, so anyone who has an idea what may come out of it, please do share. This is quite a unique moment, that a lot of terminology including Macualyte ki aulad/ BENIS/ RoP is catching on mainstream. Maybe many years of hard work by those that try and analyze the truth in such matters is paying off?
Harbans no. In my view nothing is going to come of it. And my reply wil be OT here and I may have to cross post it elsewhere

Let me state some thoughts. Pakistanis started off like Indian Muslims and like any group identity they bargained for an advantage and in making that bargain they used their Muslim identity and Muslims rights as opposed to non Muslims.

I believe that right from the time of partition there was a tacit assumption among Pakistanis - primarily driven by the RAPE/rich feudals that Pakistanis are fundamentally moderate Muslims who see no harm in women's education, TV, music etc. This was true only for the elite.


Pakistan hid away its masses - perhaps 80 million in 1947. Under that feudal set up the lower class kept their women covered and did not allow women's education while the upper classes appeared secular. The covenant between the upper and lower classes was that their duty was to fight India and rescue Indians Muslims, especially Kashmiris because the Pakistani narrative was that they were successful and moderate while the oppression was in India.

In 60 years this has changed. This is partly India's fault. India too was ruled by an elite (Nehruvian) but India pushed its upper castes down and brought in reservation that allowed the middle and lower castes to come up. For Pakistan this was a disaster. The biggest complaint about India was the story that the dominant upper castes were cruel to the lower castes and Muslims. Both these lies were nailed in India in 60 years and Pakistanis started looking inwards and found everything that was supposed to be wrong in India alive and well in Pakistan

To cut a long story short there can be no reconciliation between the Islamists and the so called Jinnah-model Pakis who light candles for Malala. The latter group are shit scared of being killed. Their women are covered up. I suspect that the Pakistan army is Islamized enough to ensure that Army officers wives too are covered up and that army parties have separate men and women and no alcohol. But they still have TV and women's education and polio immunization.

Among the Islamists there are two groups - the bad Taliban who are fighting now and who have shot Malala and the good Islamists like the JuD/LeT. The JuD/LeT ensure that the army wives are covered up and army parties are alcohol free. But they do not stop polio immunization or women's education. These are the moderate Islamists whom the RAPE support and admire,

But the JuD/LeT will not fight the bad Taliban. The LeT will not fight the army like the Taliban do. The LeT/JuD have army people in their ranks and army as LeT/JuD in their ranks. They are the moderates, the Jinnah-ists. The bad Taliban are probably mostly Pasthun and so the "war on terror" is US forcing Paki army to fight Pashtuns.

I think Pakistan will split again. Already a de facto formation of Pakhtunistan has occurred. Already the Pakis do not control Waziristan and the US/Afghanistan government do not control vast areas near the Afghan Pakistan border. This is Pakhtunistan. Pakhtunistan will be Taliban ruled but will be kept away from Kabul by US support. They will be kept away from Pakjab by the Paki army. The Paki army will not control the Taliban no matter what. I do not believe there will be a return to the 90s. Rabid Islamism is the Taliban's trump card. Pakis cannot fight that without abrogating the very Islam they claim to stand for. Pakistan can escape general civil war by hiving off Pakhtunistan. There may be an "autonomy" fig leaf though


Juet my thoughts
harbans
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by harbans »

Ramana in the previous post i mentioned a spate of articles in mainstream media that are questioning the ideology. The single piece that appeared here was discussed for a few pages till almost a day or 2 ago TSP thread is here below. The article is significant and should have been noticed by anyone reading up on TSP. It's the FIRST time that Islamic ideology itself has been directly put forward as Raison de Etre for TSPs present state today in a Paki mainstream paper. If not i must have missed something. Hence the question to Shiv about if he notices some change in the offing. .

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/10 ... e-taliban/

The fact that Pakistan is collapsing is well known, also well known is the fact that Taliban and purer forms of Islam are gaining ground all over the country. What is not known is if there will be an ideological counter attack to Taliban/ Islamic ideology within the nation. An important benchmark for the same is mainstream media articles such as above. Even if the chances of such a clash are remote, it will be significant if there is a clash between Islam and those who oppose it's ideology emerging of all places in Pakistan. That is why i personally felt surprised reading that in Paki mainstream media. Also hundreds of comments in favor of the author from presumable Pakistan itself possibly show a constituency which might like to break away from the shackles of that ideology.
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