Indian Naval Discussion

[Prem Kumar]

John - ASROC gives you the flexibility of separating the sensor from the shooter. You dont need the ship to detect the sub at a 50 mile range. An ASW heli can detect a sub, pass coordinates to the ship, which can attack the sub if its within the ASROC range. Moreover, since a ship has more onboard space, it can store and launch a salvo of ASROCs to increase the kill probability. ASROCs are not a replacement for helis, but a nice complement.

LWTs go into a spiral search pattern with active sonar once they enter the water. So, a sub running on batteries would be difficult to pick up by the ASW helicopter. But once detected, an LWT dropped in its whereabouts would make life very difficult for the sub

[John]

John - ASROC gives you the flexibility of separating the sensor from the shooter. You dont need the ship to detect the sub at a 50 mile range. An ASW heli can detect a sub, pass coordinates to the ship, which can attack the sub if its within the ASROC range. Moreover, since a ship has more onboard space, it can store and launch a salvo of ASROCs to increase the kill probability. ASROCs are not a replacement for helis, but a nice complement.

The 1+ minutes for the ship based to be fired and the 91ER2 to drop the LWT, the submarine would have moved away from that area so it is still much safer choice using helicopter to drop the torpedo or depth charges than use the ship. Also ships don't carry additional salvos of missiles it is next to impossible to reload 91ER2 in middle no where without any cranes but they do carry additional torpedoes...

[bmallick]

John - ASROC gives you the flexibility of separating the sensor from the shooter. You dont need the ship to detect the sub at a 50 mile range. An ASW heli can detect a sub, pass coordinates to the ship, which can attack the sub if its within the ASROC range. Moreover, since a ship has more onboard space, it can store and launch a salvo of ASROCs to increase the kill probability. ASROCs are not a replacement for helis, but a nice complement.

The 1+ minutes for the ship based to be fired and the 91ER2 to drop the LWT, the submarine would have moved away from that area so it is still much safer choice using helicopter to drop the torpedo or depth charges than use the ship. Also ships don't carry additional salvos of missiles it is next to impossible to reload 91ER2 in middle no where without any cranes but they do carry additional torpedoes...

1. A sub sprinting under water at top speed of 20kn , would travel roughly 600 m per min. However please note that under such circumstances, the sub would be making a lot of noise and would give away its exact position and bearing.

2. Yes ships do not carry re-loads, however the point being made is that a Heli generally had only 2 LWT's on board, however a ship has far more than that of ASROC, hence better suited to salvo fire. Thats the very reason we have the RBU's with reload option, easily saturate a area.

[bmallick]

Regarding the P-28 Kamorta class, everybody is saying it does not have AshM, because the model photo's do not show so. However everybody is dead sure that it has 2 triple launchers for LWT. However the model picture clearly show that the it is twin torpedo launchers and not triple ones. Hence isn't it more likely it is carrying 2 twin launchers of HWT, the same as the Talwar class.

picture: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... ect28b.jpg

Also 1 Kamorta & 1 Kora class vessel would create a nice couple, complimenting each other perfectly. Moreover since the Kora classs has a heli deck, that provides extra flexibility for heli operations.

[Singha]

maybe we barking entirely up the wrong tree here. its quite clear the days of FFGs chasing the hangors and daphnes of the world and running them to ground are over.
AIP equipped subs and SSNs are the new benchmark.

soviets with their sea denial stragtegy laid a lot of stress on attack submarines and SSGN.

khan seems to contest that threat not with a mass of FFGs but by a strong fleet of LRMP Orions and SSNs .... they hardly have any ASW oriented vessels in the fleet. their DDGs do not even have helicopter hangers just a operating deck. their marine ships have mainly transport helis.

I would imagine a good submarine will detect other submarines easier than a surface ship will? more P8I, MRMP and Scorpenes boys...?

[Austin]

picture: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... ect28b.jpg

P-28 is a well balanced ASW ship without getting into the itch of loading it with Anti-Ship missile.

It has Hull Mounted Sonar likely also some form of LF TAS , for weapons RBU-6000 and two twin TT launchers , PDMS is Bakak/AK-630 plus the usual 100/75 mm Main Gun.

IN wants a dedicated ASW ship with P-28 and thats what its investing in it.

[bmallick]

picture: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... ect28b.jpg

P-28 is a well balanced ASW ship without getting into the itch of loading it with Anti-Ship missile.

It has Hull Mounted Sonar likely also some form of LF TAS , for weapons RBU-6000 and two twin TT launchers , PDMS is Bakak/AK-630 plus the usual 100/75 mm Main Gun.

IN wants a dedicated ASW ship with P-28 and thats what its investing in it.

Agreed totally Austin. I was just trying to underscore the point that the model might be indicating to a HWT rather than LWT on the vessels.

[Manish_Sharma]

So how does an ASW ship hunts the submarines?

I thought this scenario by Shankarosky made clear the role of missiles in killing agosta, apologies for posting it in full:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=840

TASK FORCE 31 –INS CHENNAI -INDIAN NAVAL BASE MUMBAI -0600 HRS

Like all female officer in the Indian armed forces Captain Urvasi never stopped trying to prove she is as good as the guys even after nearly ten years meritious service and now commanding one of the best state of the art destroyers of the navy .She obtained a degree in electronics and communication engineering fro IIT Kanpur after being commissioned in the navy through the usual route . Her problems were not just her good looks which she managed to hide very effectively behind shapeless uniform and dark glasses and an excessively authoritative behavior towards her sub ordinates.

But what was behind her meteoric rise was not her looks or rough behavior but a razor sharp intellect that allowed her superb situational awareness in a complex environment and her deep grasp of all things technical particularly the electronic guidance package of modern missiles and radars and digital control fo gas turbine engines . She was one of the very few in the navy to boast this dual advantage and naturally always landed with the latest technology equipped systems be a s the officer responsible for induction of BrahMos into Delhi class or the Bark missile systems . She did not like submarine life and as such never offred to volunteer for the scorpenes but helped her friends in an informal way whenever they landed up with an unusual control or guidance problem.

This time her task forces objective was not clearly defined ,atleast no yet but she has been ordered to proceed with her force of destroyers and frigates al the very best nay had Kolkata class and shivalik class with a pair of scorpenes to northern Arabian sea designated patrol area and watch Pakistani shipping but do nothing for the time being .Time for action will come later ,she was told by her commanding officer .

The orange sun bathed her in a golden glow as she watched the first of the three missile boats cleared the channel and entered the open sea of Indian continental shelf .The scorpenes followed and then submerged. Her ship started moving out slowly following the frigates through the highly mined entry exit channel to Mumbai naval base second only in importance to Karwar in Karnataka .

aimed at adding a new dimension to the country’s naval warfare, India yesterday launched an indigenous warship under the Project 15 Alpha with enhanced stealth features and land-attack capabilities. Called the INS Kolkata, the ship belongs to the destroyer class and is the first of three ships presently under construction at the Mazagon Dock here. The ship is scheduled to join the Navy in 2010.

"Project 15 A, although conceived as a follow-on of the earlier Delhi class will have major advances in its weapons and sensors ad will be technologically far more superior," Mazagon Dock CMD Rear Admiral SKK Krishnan said. Project 15-A ships are follow-on ships of the successful Project 15 destroyers including INS Delhi, INS Mysore and INS Mumbai, which form the frontline combatants of the Indian Navy

Armed with supersonic BrahMos cruise missiles, INS Kolkata is the l argest and most lethal multi-role destroyer of the Indian Navy. It will be the first of Project 15 Alpha. Though of the Delhi class, it has been modified extensively to add stealth.

As Roopa Byce, wife of Vice-Admiral Sangram Singh Byce, Flag Officer Commanding-In-Chief of the Western Naval Command, pressed a button on Thursday, the warship slid down the slipway of the Mazagon Dock into the Arabian Sea to the tune of Sare jehan se achchha.

Ms. Byce named the destroyer, resplendent in colourful buntings, Kolkata.

The destroyer's keel was laid in September 2003. It is likely to be commissioned in the Navy in 2010. Two more Kolkata class vessels will be inducted in the subsequent two years. The Kolkata has 16 BrahMos launchers ? eight on each side.

The destroyer is likely to get long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM). The Mazagon Dock has not named the missile but indicated that it is being "co-developed" by the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

Vertical launch system

A defence source said the destroyer might have a 24-cell vertical launch system for SAMs in its forward and aft areas, making it a total of 48. Four AK-630 rapid-fire guns would back the missiles. The ship will have a gun for surface targets. There are also twin-tube torpedo launchers and anti-submarine rocket launchers.

Besides a multi-function radar system, the destroyer has the Humsa-NG hull mounted sonar and a Nagin active towed array sonar.

Like the Delhi class, Kolkata will be able to operate two multi-role helicopters.

All sensors and weapons are integrated in a state-of-the-art system; the networking of the weapons and censors will enable the warship to combat multi-threats in different dimensions simultaneously.

INS Kolkata's sides are covered and rounded, making detection difficult. All missile launchers and bases of the superstructure are covered for the same reason. A four reversible gas turbine propulsion system will afford the warship to cruise in excess of 30 knots.

Chief of the Army Staff Gen. J.J. Singh, who was the chief guest, stressed the need for an advanced and strong navy in the emerging geo-political scenario.

In the welcome address, Vice-Admiral S.S.K. Krishnan, Chairman and Managing Director of the Mazagon Dock, said the shipyard was building three lines of warships for the Navy

Captain Urvasi remembered the media reports and speculation about this new class of ship about 4 years back when Kolkata was launched but not even the smartest reporter had a clue about its true capability ar the fact that it was indeed euiped with nuclear tipped land attack missiles (yet to be named ) a modified version of brahmos with hypersonic speed . Whiel it will be patrolling the shores of Pakistan on conventional role its real role will be to carry out a devastating second strike should the need arise from a quarter no one expected .

She also happened to be almost completely stealthy to ship and shore radars beyond a specified range (classified ) so in fact invincible from other ships and shore .Her vulnerability was from air particularly from P3 orions and that is why she would always sail within the protective envelope of Vikramaditya even when operating independently .

The deck vibration increased as the turbines increased speed and the massive reduction gear converted that to additional torque . The nearly 7000 ton ship accelerated smoothly out of the channel and into open sea and blended into the waves effortlessly

TASK FORCE 31 –INS CHENNAI -INDIAN NAVAL BASE MUMBAI -0730 HR

Once the ship has entered open seas it was time for captain Urvasi to head for the combat information centre or ops room as called by the navy.The two sea kings have already lifted off the heli deck and now fast approaching their respective patrol zones . The four gas turbines effortlessly propelled the sleek ship to speeds in excess of 30 knots much in excess in fact . Most of her patrol duration she will move near maximum speed (fuel economy be damned thought Urvasi as she intended to make herself a very difficult target for the Pakistani agostas if some how they manage to break the outer underwater screen provided by the scorpenes .

Chennai looked good and sexy thought her captain but she also knew the lethal punch that the ship can generate at a moments notice . Compared to earler generation of destryers like Ranvir and Ranjit ,Chennai It is only a little heavier, longer and wider than . Yet, it has four times the number of anti-ship missiles all of them the latest variation of Brahmos -- its main armament -- as well as equipment that give it a generational jump in electronic warfare (EW) abilities. There is additional space for fuel, food and water to enable it to operate greater distances without touching base.

In simple terms, platforms like Chennais "sustainability multiplied by reach will help effectively establish the country's presence in the Indian Ocean," said Commodore C. Irani , deputy director of the Delhi-based Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses. Executive Officer Commander S.S. Randhawa pointed out that the task of linking sensors from various manufacturers into a coherent display and action sequence is an awe-inspiring achievement. "This enormous steel fortress is also a precision war machine," he says. Thousands of tonnes of special-strength steel, hundreds of thousands of miles of cable, transducers, transistors, valves and pistons, located in 437 compartments of various sizes, are all integrated into a platform which can launch a volley of missiles and, with some luck, send a dozen ships to Davy Jones' locker in a matter of minutes .

This T-Rex of the seas has powerful enemies -- missiles and torpedoes. They are most effectively tackled by destroying their launch 'platforms' -- submarines and aircraft. The outer defensive screen of Chennai must prevent intruders from coming within 300 km of the ship. This distance is defined in a sense by Pakistan's Harpoon missiles which can be launched from submerged submarines or P3C Orion aircraft and have a range of 110 km.

The outermost screen is provided by two Sea King 42B helicopters, equipped with a radar, dipping sonar, British-made Sea Eagle missiles and depth bombs. These helicopters can fly up to 400 km around Delhi and have electronic data links to download what they see or hear to the combat information centre in the ops room.

Targets under water are tracked by sonar, a device which sends out sound waves that rebound off the metallic hulls of enemy ships or submarines. This is not as simple as its sounds: temperature, salinity, currents and pressure alter the speed and direction of the returning sound wave. In addition, as in radar, other sounds clutter the readings. Processing the signals to filter these out and give the accurate range and bearing of the hostile intruder requires sophisticated software, while the accuracy of the readings themselves requires hardware of great sensitivity. The Navy and the DRDO have designed and engineered Chennais sonar, based on the success of their earlier apsoh system. The BEL-manufactured unit is called HUMVAAD. It has one sensor mounted on the hull to detect submarines near the surface and another towed, going down deeper to ensure that no vessel is lurking in depths where varying salinity distorts the sonar beam. Once detected, submarines are immediately attacked by anti-submarine rockets within a range of 5 km, and beyond that by torpedoes, mounted on a quintuple launcher in the middle of the ship.

Incoming aircraft or ships are also picked up by a BEL-made early warning radar and then tracked on planar-array radar, which provides information on the location of a target in three-dimensional form. This radar can track multiple targets, be they aircraft or missiles and identify the most threatening ones. As the object comes closer, it is "illuminated" or locked on by another radar on which rides a Barak surface-to-air missile that is fired from an automatic launcher at the front and the back of the ship. Missiles pop out from two launchers, each with a 24-unit carousel, and are fired automatically. The warship's designators can lock on to 18 targets at a time and engage the eight most threatening ones simultaneously.

The operations room looked more like a space launch complex than a combat centre thought Urvashi as she went to each of the console operators and confirmed all systems and sensors are performing as they should before committing the ship to combat /interception mode . Both the radar displays and sonar screens were for the moment clear .The radar showed usual commercial traffic coming in and out of Mumbai airport and the sonar showed only the two escorting scorpenes spreading out in a v formation ahead of the ship before initiating their respective circular search and sanitize pattern . The engine display showed all the turbines are running normal and prop rpm maintained at 95 rpm which is about 85% of max output of the 64 MW turbines two which powered each propeller.

She walked over slowly to the sat terminal where the latest extra high resolution ocean images from ocean sat 2 and 4 were being downloaded .The images were about 3 hours old and for Urvashi that was good enough for the time being . Most were commercial shipping and local fishing boats but as she moves farther north she expected more contact with naval ships of USN and may be some very foolish Pakistani navy ship who will dare challenge the might of INS Chennai.
She had the operational mandate to search any ship outside Pakistani territorial waters which in her opinion may be carrying contraband and take any action to protect the ship and her crews. As far as Captain Urvasi was concerned it gave her just the right amount of lee way to sink any Pakistani warship she would come across whenever she felt it is “threat” to Chennai.

But before all that she has sail into the “envelope “ of Vikramaditya now sailing in north Arabian sea . She would stay within a 400 km radius of Vick and start her operations at random .

A fast moving dot appeared out of north western sky .The air intercept officer called out over the PA
- Unidentified aircraft -325 –speed 1200 km/hr –altitude – 200 ft
The young Lt commander on air defense duty acted quickly as Urvasi moved near his display .
-request permission to activate air defenses captain
- permission granted –do we have IFF confirmation on incoming
- no captain – possible F-16 /Mig 29 – We don’t know yet –the flight profile is surely not friendly .
Up on the deck a pair of Barak missiles turned on their launcher as their dedicated tracking radar activated
- contact the aircraft and warn him off
- Sure captain – unidentified aircraft -this is Indian navy ship Chennai –you are entering restricted airspace – turn back immediately or you will be fired upon –over
- Chennai – relax – this is flight sierra orange from Vick – having IFF problem – was investigating a contact –over
Urvasi was now real mad ,how can they allow an aircraft to fly in so close without operational IFF ,she decided to personally take this up with the rear admiral commanding Vikramaditya at earliest opportunity
- target 40 km –speed 1200 – altitude 100 meters
-siera orange – you are still un identified and be treated as hostile if you enter active air defense zone –change heading to 015 and leave the area immediately .
Commaander get in touch with Vick and report this immediately –thundered the captain of INS Chennai as she strolled out of the ops room and into the engine room below.
Far above her the lone Mig 29 banked sharply into a new course .The young Lt commander ,Never even knowing how close to sure death was .
The day for her has just begun.

PNS SAAD –AGOSTA 90B – 1800 HRS SOMEWHERE IN NORTH ARABIAN SEA

Captain Imran like tea and like it hot. As he finished his 7th cup of the day it was time to get a news update from Karachi , his home base and also home town. When out on patrol he always worried about the safety of his wife and two daughters. The city was now infested with fanatic Taliban who would try to enforce medieval type laws whenever they can which included public flogging and executions at the slightest pretext .All they were doing was in fact terrorizing the general population to unquestioned obedience to their dictates . His family though living in highly protected naval base residential area could not but avoid go into the city and there lay the unspoken danger.

It was time to get daily update from Karachi ,the only time his state of the art underwater fighting machine is truly vulnerable .

- xo I have the con
- captain has the con
- make periscope depth – make climb angle 5 degree
- coming up to periscope depth – angle on plane 5 degree
The deck canted upwards gently as the diving planes moved on hydraulic actuators changed position smoothly pushed the nose of the ship up .
The digital depth guage showed 32 ft and the submarine leveled out . At the depth the effect of rough sea top side could be clearly felt inside
- up periscope –quick sweep xo
The periscope moved out of its cylinder smoothly and silently with the first officer going for a quick 7 second scan
- all clear captain . A high definition digital camera recorded the scan on a dedicated memory stick to be viewed again later
- up com antenna
- com antenna up – receiving
- down periscope
- message received – com antenna down
make depth 150 ft – dive angle 15 degree – change to heading 085 –XO take the con

The message for Pakistani naval head quarters was brief and to the point

FM CNS TO COM SAAD
INDIA IMPOSED NO FLY ZONE ALL PAKISTAN EFFECTIVE TODAY
NAVAL BLOCKADE EXPECTED TO SHAPE UP SOON STOP CONSIDER ALL ENEMY SHIPPING AS LEGITIMATE TARGET STOP TASK FORCE 31 INDIAN NAVY EXPECTED TO BE IN AREA 24 HOURS STOP INS CHENNAI LEADING STOP TAKE HER OUT AND ANY OTHER TARGET OF OPERTUNITY MSG OVER

Captain Imran wiped his brows ,it was hot and damp in side the air conditioned control room . He knew the basic capability of Chennai and also aware even if makes successful strike the chances of him making back to base in one piece is small mainly because of the enemy aircraft the 142 and 38 s which patrol the Arabian sea 24x7.

But like a true professional he ordered a search grid to be set up around the expected location of the Indian task force and torpedoes loaded. As he chalked out an attack plan ,he forgot one element in the entire equation –the Phalcons .

He did not even know the traditional rules of under sea engagement and decade old naval tactics are no longer valid .The arrival of IAF Phalcons have changed them forever .Surprise will never be his

IAF PHALCON –SEA GULL ONE – 1810 HRS – OVER NORTHERN ARABIAN SEA

- Sir – better have a look at this
- What is it squadron leader asked group captain Pandey as he came out of the toilet .
- Sir looks like we have surface to sat communication in burst mode from some where in north Arabian sea grid sector bravo delta
- Can you get an exact fix
- Yes sir –take a few minutes
- Is the transmission encrypted
- Yes sir –looks like navy type message –forwarding the recorded message to delhi for de encryptation
- Why your comp no good
- Not that sir but I no navy guy
- Ok go ahead –and confirm the surface contact position pronto too.
- We have a no fly violation – two mirage taking off from Karachi
- Inform air force sector commander and also alert the patrolling aircraft for a snap intercept
- Ocean star flight – sea gull one – make course 280-speed 1400 – intercept mission –possible military aircraft north west of Karachi – you are not weapons free yet –over
- Sea gull one –ocean star one –on our way


TASK FORCE 31 –INS CHENNAI – SOME WHERE IN NORTH ARABIAN SEA

- Captain –we have a sub alert –burst transmission recorded by Phalcon in the area and passed on – as of 3 hours back a possible agosta surfaced in grid sector bravo delta for few minutes
- Xo where the hell is bravo delta
-captain that is exactly 290 km north west of our present position
- Ok divert one of the sea kings to the last reported position and tell him to start a dunking ops asap
- call up command and ask for a Tupolev
- Any news from sonar
-nothing as yet captain
- Ok standby to deploy towed array
- make full speed ahead for 5 minutes then all stop
- Engine room full speed for 5 minutes then all stop
- tow sonar get ready to deploy the moment we stop
- Xo –get in touch with the Phalcon – tell them we need to know immediately whenever the pak sub breaks water
-copy that captain
- Captain – command has just confirmed a Bear on patrol near Mumbai is being diverted to us
- Ok –patch me onto the bear as fast as you can
- Captain – the bear sorry flight blue sky is on line
- Morning commander –this is Chennai- authentication code zulu sierra alpha 37 –confirm –over
- Authentication code valid – go ahead captain sir
- we have a possible enemy sub –type possible agosta 90b – in the area – no sonar contact as yet –suspect circling for a night strike – last know position grid sector bravo delta
- Standby to do a MAD run and possible weapon drop – once we get some damned contact –over
- Yes sir captain – changing course to bravo delta
- oh one last thing please also keep the air force net frequency open – the phalcon should come in line anytime soon
- copy that captain
-Captain –we have the Phalcon on line
- sir this is captain Urvahi on Chennai – authentication code – zulu sierra alpha 3 7 – do you copy over
- go ahead captain
- sir we need you to keep a close watch on grid sector bravo delta /bravo Charlie and bravo alpha –suspect agosta circling in for a sneak night attack – no positive sonar contact as yet –over
- Captain shall do best only if she comes surfaces or send s a signal
- Thanks sir – appreciate your assistance – over
- All stop
- Deploy towed array –passive
-towed array deployed
The long line of hydrophones reeled out scanning the ocean for any sign of hostile sub . The sonar officer in his dark cubicle watched the waterfall display .Apart form task force ships there was no unidentified mad made acoustic signals .
- captain this are is clean
- engine room make full speed
- xo change course to 090

The deadly game of cat and mouse began, where the winner will take all.


SEA GULL ONE –IAF PHALCON – 0007 HRS – NORTH ARABIAN SEA

Air commodore Manjit singh finished his some what late working dinner . The screechy monotonous drone of four engines at minimum power setting and good air conditioning inside could make any one go to sleep quickly thought as he took a small walk along the row of consoles all ghostly in blue green display and red overhead light . Outside he could occasionally see the flashing navigation lights of the escorting flankers armed to teeth and more making endless pattern of eight on the ink black night sky .He decided to talk to his navy liaison officer on board an young lt commander called Bhupinder specializing in undersea warfare and sub to surface communication .He started the conversation in his usual formal way .It always started like that before the heat of discussion may turn it into something less than civil and language too followed the general trend

- ok navy – so what we are looking for
- sir we are trying to locate a Pakistani submarine ,somewhere in the ocean under us
- so how do you propose to do that
- sir we have several options like using high power active sonar or a MAD run but for all that to happen we need a rough fix of the area where the enemy sub is
- and how do you propose to do it
- sir by tracking its emission and if he surfaces for any reason ,by spotting his radar shadow it is a big ship even when half submerged
- are you sure it will surface
- not 1005 sir but pak navy usually keeps their sub commanders on a tight leash particularly after they installed the nuke tipped missiles on their agostas .So the ocmmander will surface even if for a few seconds to take the final clearance before committing his ship to high risk offensive action
- ok what kind of transmission we are talking about
- sir a typical high speed burst transmission and response from a satellite in a ,matter of minutes .In that window the submarine will be on surface or at least on periscope depth open to location confirmation
- and how do you propose to take that out
- Sir that depends on the ship commander , he surely did not want to elaborate to an airforcce guy even if a commodore

- sir came the excited voice of the communication control officer monitoring the standard surface to sat communication spectrum – we may have something here – high speed burst communication on Ku band -6 seconds –

- get a fix on the transmission source

Manjit was off his seat in a flash ,a difficult feat considering his size and age as he rushed out his chair and straight into the flight deck
- wing commander –I want you to fly to this location
- do we have a fix yet
- not exactly but in grid sector bravo alpha – 75 km off –heading 218 –surface contact
- sir we have a radar return weak type possibly submerged but near surface –possible submarine
- Wing max speed to this new contact
- Com alert Chennai
- Radar donot loose touch –closing in at max speed

The phalcon did the unthinkable ,it initiated a shallow dive to the suspect location and all engines on full power .

INS CHENNAI – 015 HRS – NORTH ARABIAN SEA

-Captain we have a possible sub alert from Phalcon – grid bravo alpha –they are trying to get a better radar fix – on surface or periscope depth
- ok guys sound battle station – full speed ahead
- missile –ready for a snap launch if we get a fix
- xo divert the bear to bravo delta immediately
- blue sky –rush to bravo delta – possible sun contact made by phalcon
- copy that Chennai – going max speed
- blue sky –sea gull one – possible sub on or near surface contact bravo delta –co ordinates ------
Still firming up
- noted sea gull – starting search MAD at target location in 6 minutes max

- xo – get the missile crew ready for a snap shot moment we get a confirmed mad fix –maintain full speed

The deck vibration increased as the four gas turbines spooled up to maximum rev ,quickly narrowing the gap between the suspect submarine and the destroyer Chennai which was now on a scent trail –excited fast and very dangerous .


INS CHENNAI – 0100 HRS – NORTH ARABIAN SEA – APPROACHING GRID SECTOR BRAVO DELTA

The ocean was rough and the ship was making full speed in excess of 34 knots (close to 38 knots actually) and captain uravashi held on to the guard rail on operation centre as Chennai rushed on regardless from one series of violent pitching to another with the hot scent of a kill in her nose . The high pitched whine of the gas turbines could be heard even through the not so good soundproofing

- blue sky –Chennai – you in position
- yes captain – in bravo delta
- xo are we ready to launch missiles
- yes captain whenever you say on the last reported co ordinate of the sub
- where are the sea kings xo
- captain sea eagle one is along north south axis of bravo delta and sea eagle two is on east west axis
- ok let us start bracketing the bast----
- sea eagle one you are cleared to drop a line of buoys 200 meter separation – start now –maintain present speed and course
- sea eagle two start dropping your load after two minutes along your present course and maintain speed
- blue sky stand by for mad run
The tension in the ops centre was electric .Urvashi could physically smell the tension and the sweaty stink of many bodies packed together even with the air conditioning going full blast.

- Chennai – sea eagle one we have a weak signal from B3 ,medium on B4 weak on B5- one sec strength on B5 is now medium – B3 is very weak and getting very weak on B6
- Sea eagle 2 – start dropping your load now
- Copy that Chennai –
- Chennai – sea eagle one signal on b5 is fading – medium on B6 looks like it is making straight for you on slow speed
- Chennai sea eagle 2 we have a weak signal on N3 and N4
Urvashi leaned forward over the sonar console, still no clear signal ,obviously the Agosta captain was good very good; he is approaching the destroyer at an angle which makes positive sonar identification difficult at a very slow speed and now most likely slowly going deeper to make any bracketing attempt more complicated and difficult. She had to do something now before the agosta is lost and surfaces somewhere inside the protective screen . Where she can fire her exocet and torpedoes at will may be at Chennai or the carrier Vick

She will have to act now ,she will have to make the agosta disclose its position and she will have to do that before it comes in sure kill envelope of her own anti ship missiles .
- xo – prepare for multiple Brahmos launch –target last known position of enemy sub and as confirmed by the helo sonar data
A few seconds delay as the data from phalcon and sea kings were processed and the Brahmos fire control computer came up three possible location of the target designated sierra one ,two and three

- clear deck for missile launch
- captain –missile – permission to launch 3 missile salvo
- permission granted – authentication code orange river 456 –over
- authentication code entered – request enter launch key in your console and turn on my prompt
- launch key inserted –ready to turn
- 3 2 1 now
Both the missile officer and captain turned the key and the 3 supersonic anti ship missiles went on autonomous launch mode .The countdown clock started its reverse count and exact 9 seconds after the three missiles came out of its canister and leaped into the dark sky on pillars of fire almost 36 ft high .As it reached a height of 80 ft the noses started tipping over and the ramjet ignited the three missiles changed course accelerating fast towards the last know position of the Pakistani submarine .

Each carrying a 250 kg high explosive warhead enough to sink a carrier, the missiles flew on a flat trajectory acting as worlds first supersonic oversized depth charge . In a few minutes they were over the target are and dived hitting the water at three times the speed of sound and the warheads exploded in sequence just under the surface of water sending in massive shock waves all around .


PNS SAAD –AGOSTA 90B – 0100 HRS SOMEWHERE IN NORTH ARABIAN SEA

Captain Imran’s plan was working. He has got his authorization to missile launch and he was almost within launch range of his anti ship missiles . At 3 knots peed he ken was practically undetectable at 115 ft depth which sonar predicted the first thermo cline . He was aware of Indian anti sub helos searching the area for him and he also knew the destroyer Chennai was closing in at maximum speed but still much outside any torpedo launch zone. At this depth he was almost impervious to any magnetic anomaly detection also from the Indian topples that might have reached the area. Even if some weak signal the tupolevs may get on their MAD gear it will not be good enough for an accurate weapon drop.

It was time to get into missile launch position ,by the time he levels out the Indian destroyer should nicely come into kill zone and then it will be upto him and his dependable excocets to make the prize kill which he was sure will break the moral of Indian navy .
he SM-39 Exocet is a short-range, solid propellant, single warhead, submarine-launched cruise missile developed and manufactured by France. Several hundred were fired in combat during the Falklands conflict and the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s.

France initially designed the Exocet (“Flying Fish” in French) family of cruise missiles to attack and destroy large warships. The SM-39, on which development began in 1979, is the submarine-launched version of the AM-39. It is currently deployed on the “Le Triumphant,” “L’Inflexible,” “Rubris,” and “Agosta” class submarines.

The Exocet family of missiles are all the same basic shape, the only differences being the length and wing shape. The SM-39 has four delta-shaped wings at mid-body, and four delta-shaped control fins at the rear. The missile is 4.69 m long, 0.35 m in body diameter, and has a launch weight of 655 kg. It carries a high explosive fragmentation warhead weighing 165 kg. The SM-39 is stored in a launch container along with propulsion and guidance units. The entire module, designated VSM “Vehicule Sous-Marin,” is fired from standard torpedo 533 millimeter launch tubes. The missile and VSM together weigh 1,345 kg. After breaking the surface, the SM-39 separates from the VSM at a low altitude of about 30 m.

The SM-39 then stabilizes in the direction of its target at its first cruising altitude, low enough to avoid detection by its target yet high enough to allow its active radar seeker head to acquire the target. Midcourse guidance is by an inertial navigation system (INS) and a radio altimeter, allowing the missile to fly a sea-skimming trajectory to its target. The SM-39 descends to its second cruise altitude for the terminal phase, with a final approach at an altitude determined by prevailing sea conditions, sometimes as low as 3 m. Terminal guidance is provided by an active radar. The SM-39 is reported to have a maximum range of 50 km



It was then the brahmos stuck water and exploded with horrendous force followed by the second and then the third.

The first casuality was the sonar operator, his eardrums ruptured and he collapsed in a heap on the console table. The lights went off and in a few seconds the emergency lights came on .Imran could not believe what has happened .There was no warsip in the vicinity and he was far too deep for an aerial strike. There was no torpedo launch warning either. He took control immediately
- captain has the con
- xo damage assessment
- sir we have sonar in operative
- diving plane damaged – unable to maintain depth
- pressure hull shows no sign of leakage –depth 103 ft –speed 3 knots
- AIP OK –on standby
- Minor leakage on prop seal
- Weapon can we launch missiles
- Affirmative sir but we need to come up to launch depth first
- Ok xo – main ballast – let us come up to 50 ft – prepare to launch missiles at target Charlie as soon as possible

The crippled Agosta started climbing slowly as the main ballast tanks started pushing out water .On the missile launch console the lights started turning green as one after another the various launch and arming sequences were being completed by the fire control computer.


INS CHENNAI – 0105 HRS – NORTH ARABIAN SEA – APPROACHING GRID SECTOR BRAVO DELTA

- captain – sea eagle 1 the damn agosta is hit –she is blowing main ballast – coming up to periscope depth
- sea eagle –please note that can also be the missile launch depth
- blue sky –you heard me – commence MAD run now
- sea eagle one and two –standby to drop weapon the moment a positive MAD fix
is obtained
- copy Chennai – blue sky – starting MAD run – altitude 50 meters – east west line grid bravo delta

The four engine bear turned in sharply and dived for the ocean tops . As it quickly quartered area in classic grid search pattern the magnetometer on her tail listened for slightest magnetic anomaly on earth’s magnetic field as may be expected by a large mass of iron like a submarine.

It took more than 3 minutes before the first spike appeared on the screen

- mad man mad man smoke away ,shouted the Bear pilot as he quickly turned outwards and gained altitude for a weapon drop ,dropping an orange smoke buoy
to mark the position

- sea eagle one – Chennai -weapons free – go ahead
- sea eagle two –stand by
- blue sky stand by


PNS SAAD –AGOSTA 90B – 0107 HRS SOMEWHERE IN NORTH ARABIAN SEA

Captain Imran took out his missile launch key and pushed it in simultaneously with the missile systems officer. The launch authorization code was already in when all hell broke loose as the missile system officer was about to push the launch button that will initiate the irreversible launch initiation sequence

The nervous voice of his first officer came over the PA system

-captain –xo – aerial activity overhead – a fast moving fixed wing and two choppers closing in
There was no time to loose ,either he continue with the launch and surely loose the ship or dive an try to escape however low the chance may be

- rig ship for emergency dive – blow main ballast

It was then the first torpedo hit water followed by another

- captain –we have two torp in water
- deploy noise maker – make depth 300 ft – blow ballast –make diving angle 15 degree

The agosta responded but sluggishly as the damaged diving planes tried to come to their new setting as dictated by the computer one of the hydraulic hoses burst spraying the area with a high pressure jet of dark brown oil.

-sir we are loosing hydraulic pressure
- change over to emergency circuit –maintain dive angle –full speed –change course 120

- sir we have one more torpedo in water –the first one has missed but the second one ahs gone on continuous pinging
- change course 060 – level out – keep up maximum speed

Captain Imran knew his game was lost .But he had no regrets . He always knew attacking a Indian navy task force in open ocean was another name for suicide but still he had tried .

It was then the first torpedo stuck home , opening up the pressure hull like a can of sardine followed quckly by the second follow on one dropped from the TU 142 .As billions of tons of sea water tried to enter the tiny submarine the pressure hull imploded inwards as no longer it was able to resist the forces of oceans depth. It was over in a matter of minutes .Only few patched of oil and scraps of metal remained where once the pride of Pakistan navy once sailed .

It was a sad but in inevitable end to a proud captain and her ship.

-

Apologies for posting it in full, but thought this is important about how both the missiles and helicopter torpedoes are used together to destroy agosta.

[bmallick]

With Brahmos & Klubs entering in good numbers in IN inventory, the issue of Over the horizon targeting would come to the fore front. Prior to this the styx ( 60 km ) & Uran ( 130 km ) could have been provided target information by the ships own radar or the helicopter patrolling 50 km from the ship. However, the new missiles with 300 km ranges would mean that scanning for enemy ships would have to be done much further away. With the majority of the ASW choppers busy dunking sonars and operating much closer to the sea, finding enemy vessels & identifying them 300 km away can not be done by them.

Can a AEW chopper provide the necessary work. Ka-31 radar can detect surface ship at around 200 km away ( source BR pages ). So a Ka-31 flying 100 km away from the surface vessel can do the job. However it is severely limited by its endurance.

LRMP's are taxed with the primary duty of sub hunting, but can easily scan for enemy ships and provide targetting information. But a UAV only for surface surveillance & dedicated to the job is a true game changer. A HALE UAV has persistence to work with ships armed with Brahmos & Klubs. Thus enabling the true capabilities of the mother ship. Hence, I guess, the navy's huge interest in BAMS Hale UAV. Of course the current UAV in the fleet too can do the job albeit to a limited distance. But a long range HALE UAV can truly work over the blue ocean.

Just my two cents.

[krish.pf]

MiG-29KUB finally lands!!

MIG fighter makes first landing on INS Vikramaditya
A Russian-built fighter jet has made the first landing on the INS Vikramaditya as part of comprehensive sea trials the aircraft carrier is undergoing ahead of its induction in the Indian Navy later this year.

A MiG-29KUB two-seat naval fighter jet landed on the Vikramaditya’s deck for the first time on Saturday after performing several touch-and-go approaches in the Barents Sea in the Russian Arctic, the Interfax news agency reported quoting a Russian defence industry source. The jet, built for India, was piloted by Russian Navy test-pilots Colonel Nikolai Diorditsa and Mikhail Belyaev.

The former Soviet Admiral Gorshkov heavy aviation cruiser, rechristened Vikramaditya, has been extensive refurbished and upgraded to a light aircraft carrier at the Sevmash shipyard in the Russian city of Severodvinsk under a $2.3 billion contract with India. It had its flight deck extended and turned into a full runway with a ski jump and arrestor wires.

A MiG-35 jet will also be used for landings and take-offs from the flight deck of the aircraft carrier to test its new short-takeoff-but-assisted recovery (STOBAR) system.

The Vikramaditya is to be handed over to India in December. It will carry 16 MiG-29K fighter jets, which Russia delivered to India last year, and about a dozen Russian-built Kamov helicopters.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 697040.ece

So it was not the MiG Corp jet which landed but our production variant.

[Austin]

Agreed totally Austin. I was just trying to underscore the point that the model might be indicating to a HWT rather than LWT on the vessels.

The Torpedoes will likely be LWT ( 324 mm ) DRDO developed LWT.

Most frigates/corvette class ship carry LWT and Destroyers carry HWT 533 mm

[bmallick]

Agreed totally Austin. I was just trying to underscore the point that the model might be indicating to a HWT rather than LWT on the vessels.

The Torpedoes will likely be LWT ( 324 mm ) DRDO developed LWT.

Most frigates/corvette class ship carry LWT and Destroyers carry HWT 533 mm

Well IN's Petya & Pauk class Corvette's carried 533 mm Torpedos. In fact HWT has been the norm on IN vessels & LWT the exceptions.

[Austin]

Thats probably because these were Soviet vessel and they had 533 and 650 mm Torpedo has their standard torpedoes.

Most likely all new Indian ships will get 324 mm torpedoes and destroyers bigger one ....we will see.

[Nick_S]

First landing of MiG-29KUB on Vikramaditya - 28 July 2012.

Pics n videos plz SNaik-ji.

[VinodTK]

Should India Be Building Another Carrier?

NEW DELHI — Observers are questioning the wisdom of India’s decision to begin design work on its second homemade aircraft carrier, even as its first indigenous carrier faces more than two years of delays due to technical snags and its quest to refit a Russian-built carrier has been beset by years of delays and billions in cost overruns.

Sources said the second indigenous carrier, to be named the Vishal, will have a displacement of 65,000 tons, 25,000 tons heavier than the first indigenous carrier, called Vikrant.

Vishal will feature steam catapults, operate larger fighter aircraft, and carry an airborne early-warning (AEW) system and aerial refuelers.

An Indian Navy official said Vishal will also fly naval versions of the Light Combat Aircraft, which is in development.

The decision to go ahead with such a complex and costly project has evoked mixed reactions among analysts here.

While an Indian Navy official said India needs at least three aircraft carriers, Zachariah Mathews, a retired Navy commodore and defense analyst here, questioned the need to spend money on a second carrier at this stage.
:
:

[SNaik]

First landing of MiG-29KUB on Vikramaditya - 28 July 2012.

Pics n videos plz SNaik-ji.

http://youtu.be/5NqenMZsbzk

[venkat_r]

India should have 3 carriers, which are going to be mostly used for diplomacy and power projection. IN should get 10-12 conventional and 10-12 SSBNs - so that 6-9 of each can prowl at any given time.

[Nick_S]

Thank you sir.

Looked like a perfect landing. I think he grabbed the second cable.

[kit]

Moe than anything IN is becoming more and more 'top heavy' like the IAF.It needs more subs like yesterday ! Wonder why MOD did not give the go ahead for L&T for a private sub line despite its experience with the Arihant hull ? Is it because they will be busy building the rest of the Arihant line ? 2 0r 3 hulls are being built i think for the follow on A class.

[sum]

From Livefist. Pics of the P-8I:


Is this a IN ensign or a Boeing one?

Another TFTA Amriki style pic:

[rohitvats]

^^^That ensign is the Squadron emblem of INS 312 Squadron which flies the TU-142...they are nicknamed as 'Albatross'.

[Singha]

how many P8I have we ordered and are any follow-on order being processed ?

this will be our biggest ASW force multiplier.

[sum]

^^^That ensign is the Squadron emblem of INS 312 Squadron which flies the TU-142...they are nicknamed as 'Albatross'.

So, P-8I is replacing the Tu-142? I thought both were going to complement each other.

[Hiten]

The kuleshovoleg blog usually gets the latest visual dope on the Vikramaditya

http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/tag ... kramaditya

OT: M.S uses some funky translation algorithm that produces 100% wrong results

some Bollywood guy named Vikramaditya Motwane. M.S replaces all the Vikramditya with Motawane
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.a ... kramaditya

Google does it right
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... kramaditya

[Kapil]

Whoa,
The Albatross flew a former passengerliner ie the Super Connie , in its MR variant.
And then they moved to the TUs.
And now they are back to operating a civil origin American aircraft

[Singha]

seems Australia will select between U216 and Soryu class for their next buildout of 12 boats to replace 6 collins class.
http://wsws.org/articles/2012/may2012/subs-m05.shtml

we will suck on our thumbs for a while and then promptly ban both builders for irregularities in bidding process

[SNaik]

Thank you sir.

Looked like a perfect landing. I think he grabbed the second cable.

That's right. You can't get more perfect with just 3 cables.

[merlin]

seems Australia will select between U216 and Soryu class for their next buildout of 12 boats to replace 6 collins class.
http://wsws.org/articles/2012/may2012/subs-m05.shtml

we will suck on our thumbs for a while and then promptly ban both builders for irregularities in bidding process

If the Japs can sell them Soryus I wonder if they will agree to joint development or sell us some.

Increasing Scorpene buy by +3 (for a total of 9) can tide us over the numbers somewhat but we need longer range ocean going ones and the smaller ones won't cut it for the second line.

[SNaik]

Vik at Russian Naval Review in Severomorsk:

[tushar_m]

two migs on deck one mig 29 in indian navy colors but other one have dark color never seen in mig 29 maybe mig 35 they are using for the landing & takeoff exercises

[Hiten]

shot from multiple angle showing the MiG-29 landing on the Vikramaditya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owhUT4MN2Hg

[Singha]

from livefist:
The two major components that the Indian Navy has asked for on the P-8I, that are absent on the P-8A for the US Navy, are an aft radar (Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye) and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD).

The base of the P-8I's vertical stabilizer houses a DRS Technologies emergency locator transponder designed to detach from the fuselage and float on the surface in the event of an accident over water.
.................
The Indian Navy did ask for the P-8I to be mid-air refuellable from the IAF's standard drogue-hose system. However, Boeing has built in Universal Aerial Refueling Receptacle Slipway Installations (UARRSI) in the fleet for India at no additional cost. This slipway makes the P-8I capable of receiving fuel from a boom tanker. This, Boeing was candid enough to admit, would make its new generation 767 tanker a future prospect for the Indian military.

While India is expected to exercise options for four more P-8Is once deliveries begin next year, Boeing internal projections see India signing on for up to 30 or more aircraft, keeping in mind the Indian Navy's "tremendous maritime domain awareness needs".

[Cybaru]

from livefist:

However, Boeing has built in Universal Aerial Refueling Receptacle Slipway Installations (UARRSI) in the fleet for India at no additional cost. .

How does this help our refueling needs ?

[Singha]

it doesnt, but gives Boeings own KC-767 tanker a remote chance if IN buys tankers exclusively for the P8I fleet. all other IN + IAF refueling is hose and drogue incl large birds like the Phalcons and Bears/Mays.

I am sure IN would put in the probes, perhaps from some other vendor locally after delivery with OEM support.

[Cybaru]

Would that be easy to do ? Wouldn't it make sense to have the manufacturer do this now? This is somewhat crippling I think.

[PratikDas]

Flight demonstration of A330-200 MRTT aerial refuelling system

Airbus presents a flight demonstration of its A310 air refuelling test bed at the 2008 Farnborough Airshow in England.

I don't think UARSSI is a problem for Airbus either.

[Singha]

well IN would have only themselves to blame if they allow boeing to weasel out of putting in a fixed probe.

[Cybaru]

Sigh.. Two steps forward and one step backward...

[vishvak]

If not already mentioned
Naval base Baaz to open at Southern Andaman and Nicobar Islands
In full

the Indian Navy will inaugurate a new air base at the southern-most tip of Andaman and Nicobar Islands.
..
In April this year, the navy had upgraded its detachment in the Lakshadweep Islands in the Arabian Sea to the level of a full-fledged base called the INS Dweeprakshak.

The strait connects the Indian and Pacific Oceans and the economies of China, Japan, South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore are largely dependent on it.

The IAF had also landed its C-130J Super Hercules aircraft there last month after a non-stop 10-hour flight from Hindon air base near here.

With the commissioning of Baaz, Indian military aircraft would be able to spend more time in surveillance of not only the Straits of Malacca but also the Straits of Sunda and Lombok.

The commissioning of NAS Baaz on the southern tip of Great Nicobar island will be followed by an upgrade of NAS Shibpur at Diglipur on the northern tip of the Andamans.

Another report, quoting Indian Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma India opens new naval base overlooking Malacca Strait

ability to keep an eye on the maritime traffic and security scenario in the Strait of Malacca and the Six Degree Channel.

Indian Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma declared the naval base, INS Baaz (Hawk), operational in the presence of tri-service Andaman and Nicobar Command chief Lt. Gen. Naresh C. Marwah and Chief of Integrated Defense Staff Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha.

"One of the primary functions of INS Baaz will be to provide information, based on airborne maritime surveillance," Verma said after the opening ceremony.
..
"In this context, therefore, Baaz is a very appropriate name as this base will provide an eagle's eye view over these waters, the Andaman and Nicobar islands and the strategic sea lines of communication that abound these areas," Verma said.

Noting that INS Baaz is blessed with a brilliant strategic location, Verma said: "Situated on this southernmost island of the Nicobar group, Campbell Bay overlooks the Strait of Malacca, while also dominating the Six Degree Channel. These crucial waterways continue to engage the interest of most global and regional powers."
..
The navy chief also pointed out that the archipelago was a key military lauchpad for India, noting that Port Blair would be home to amphibious platforms, naval offshore patrol vessels, and fast attack craft, as the navy's robust acquisition plans progress over the next two decades.

INS Baaz is currently equipped to operate light to heavy aircraft capable of short field operations from the runway of about 3,500 feet. The runway will be progressively lengthened to enable unrestricted operation of all category of aircraft including heavy aircraft. The base will also be bolstered with modern airfield instruments and navigation aids.

Considering Indian presence only enhances security of the region, a good news for all.

[Singha]

Cy , the harsh reality is IAF has a net total of 6 Midas...and is struggling to fund a second purchase (A330). they definitely cannot spare a single one for IN. these 6 will likely be used to keep the 3 Phalcons and EMB145-AEW up for extended periods and support C130J.
as for IN there is not even any talk of refuelers.

so its not a immediate concern.