LCA News and Discussions

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 31 Jul 2012 01:39

^^^

wait till 2019 please. all will be clear

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 31 Jul 2012 03:50

I suggest you do the same. Until then, it will be great to not have to read Deaf-and-dumb forum-esque posts asking "Is LCA better than XYZ/ABC/PQR?"

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 31 Jul 2012 04:25

Has the BVR testing from LCA occured yet? Shouldn't it occur before Dec 2012.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 31 Jul 2012 08:57

Bheeshma wrote:Has the BVR testing from LCA occured yet? Shouldn't it occur before Dec 2012.

Is it December 2012 already ?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 31 Jul 2012 09:31

chetak wrote:
RoyG wrote:How does the LCA compare to Mirage 2000 series?

Horse and buggy compared to the Model T

I think there are three major items left for the LCA testing before IOC2. Wake tests, AoA, and BVR.

I doubt whether CEMILAC would have let them keep the lightning tests for later.

Compared to the Model T , a ferrari is a two horse buggy.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 31 Jul 2012 11:22

The LSP-3 streaks into the sky. Singh's mission is to test a new smoke winder -- an under-wing pod that trails smoke. The device will help NFTC test the Tejas' reaction when it flies into a jet wake, a deadly 250-kmph blast of air emitted by a jet engine flying ahead.

source : rediff

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 31 Jul 2012 12:29

krishnan wrote:
The LSP-3 streaks into the sky. Singh's mission is to test a new smoke winder -- an under-wing pod that trails smoke. The device will help NFTC test the Tejas' reaction when it flies into a jet wake, a deadly 250-kmph blast of air emitted by a jet engine flying ahead.
source : rediff

When did this happen?

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 31 Jul 2012 14:13

rajanb wrote: When did this happen?

Here:
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110215.htm

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 31 Jul 2012 14:26

^^ Thanks Ivanev.

Only AoA and BVR left?

member_20163 · Post by **member_20163** » 31 Jul 2012 15:14

While increase in AoA would be a bit of challange, IMHO BVR would not be that big issue when Tejas has cleared R-73 firing and even done PGMs on the run. Any thoughts gurus... !!

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 31 Jul 2012 17:37

Ivanev wrote:
rajanb wrote: When did this happen?
Here:
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110215.htm

The article speaks only about smoke winder test which would help NFTC study the Tejas' reaction when it flies into a jet wake

The LSP-3 streaks into the sky. Singh's mission is to test a new smoke winder -- an under-wing pod that trails smoke. The device will help NFTC test the Tejas' reaction when it flies into a jet wake, a deadly 250-kmph blast of air emitted by a jet engine flying ahead ................................................................... The smoke winder has been successfully tested

The Wake penetration test could have happened sometime else(being optimistic) but not in the above case.

Some chaiwala/paanwala info could really help here

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 31 Jul 2012 18:00

^^^^ The wake penetration tests should have been over........hopefully.

http://worldofdefense.blogspot.in/2011/ ... d-for.html Apologies if posted earlier.

LCA Tejas Smokewinders to be used for wake penetration trials

Smokewinders on LCA Tejas are designated to be operational during wake penetration trials and demonstration flights. LCA had used Smokewinders for aerial display during the recently concluded Aero India 2011. The smokewinders will be now used during the forthcoming wake penetration trials of Tejas for flow visualization in flight. The integration of these smokewinders to Tejas comprised designing special adapters to carry in place of conventional missile launchers, modification to the stores management system for providing adequate electrical interface, ground integration checks prior to installation on aircraft, obtaining flight clearances notes before flight. Etc.

LCA program also uses airborne separation video system (ASVS) to test stores separation activities. Stores separation activity by nature is extremely flight safety critical and comprises jettisoning external drop tanks. Firing missiles and separation of bombs from all the hard points under different flight conditions. A lot of efforts have been made in terms of modelling through computational fluid dynamice (CFD) to theoretically demonstrate the safety of the parent aircraft. However, these models and theories needed flight validation in Tejas. T
hese LCA Tejas LSP 4 model validations were done through an onboard ASVS system. ASVS was integrated on Tejas in order to generate flight test data for all the stores which were separated from Tejas including 1000 lb MK-11 bombs, external drop tanks, practice bombs and close-combat missiles (R-73).

This kind of system was conceptualized and integrated for the first time in this country to validate the CFD models. The system comprises MIL qualified high-speed digital cameras, central controller to control these cameras, indigenously designed pod to carry the cameras on aircraft, indigenously designed camera, lens mounts and software for extracting and generating 6-DOF parameters for the separated stores. The effort required in integrating the entire system has performed to its full potential over multiple flights. The CFD predictions have been quite close to the data generated by ASVS thereby assisting the programme to achieve the targets set for operational clearances in terms of weapon integration.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Jul 2012 20:02

avinashpeter wrote:
RoyG wrote:How does the LCA compare to Mirage 2000 series?
I remember our ex AF chief grading LCA at IOC-1 as a MiG21++ aircraft. Though this assessment was conservative, it is certain that over the period from IOC-1 to FOC, LCA Mk1 would easily surpass the Mirage2000 in every terms except for the avionics(upgrade to happen)

LCA Mk2 at FOC would be comparable atleast to Saab Grippen or even better and IMHO by the time Mk2 goes through a mid life upgrade, with the technology infusion from AMCA, MMRCA and PAK-FA.
- It can have the best home grown avionics and cockpit system..
- A mature home grown AESA radar
- mature home grown A2A weapons and LGBs
- and possibly Kaveri K10 engine

It would surely scale upto a 4++ gen aircraft and atleast be 80-90% indigenous

I'm sure, in a few years time LCA in whatever form will be a very capable fighter aircraft. To add further to what you have mentioned, any fighter aircraft that IAF expects to be in Sqdn service is required to meed certain requirements. These requirements is otherwise nothing but MMRCA selection criteria which shortlisted Tiffy and Raffy. The standard set for LCA is nothing short of that, I believe. For example, from open source, AoA requirement set for MMRCA candidate and LCA are one and the same. High altitude test in which LCA qualified is again included in the test criteria for the MMRCA selection. It earned the reputation of fastest at Sea level in IAF stable. And, AESA promised for MMRCA is expected for LCA too and it is the same for Su-30 upgrade.

So, once fully developed, LCA in whatever form will be as capable as MMRCA candidate which made the shortlist. In that sense, if Saab Gripen didn't qualify in the MMRCA selection, in my view, with confidence, I can say, LCA on its final form will be much more than Saab Gripen and comparable and probably exceed in certain areas(continuous upgrade of avionics) to those MMRCA aircraft which got shortlisted.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Jul 2012 21:44

Furthermore, LCA as a platform is wide open for us to improve on. Stealth versions of it can be developed. It can be a platform for testing all things for AMCA including a twin-engined one. F-16s were used as test bed for many advanced technologies like divertless inlets, up thrust engines, wing redesign, avionics, fbw, etc. for us, it could be used for the same and more like fly by optics, stealth skins, under the belly irst, conformal tanks, internal weapons bay like in pak-fa and super hornets, side lobed aesa, rearward aesa, retractable pods for EW like in Ef2K (jammers), retractable re-fueling pod, etc..) the sky is not a limit.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 31 Jul 2012 22:02

^^^ I would think that experimentation on the LCA for the AMCA would be on the MK2? I do not see a big order for the MK1, beyond what is ordered?

There is no doubt in my mind that the LCA would be a fine A/C. I, for one, inspite of the negativity surrounding it, acknowledge that in spite of the shortcomings (some of which are valid in certain PSUs involved), must pay tribute to those individuals who have exhibited, grit, determination, dedication and patriotism, to have soldiered on, regardless.

I am eagerly looking forward to seeing the MK2 having a smoother ride into IAF colours as an endorsement of the hard lessons and tribulations faced while developing the MK1.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 01 Aug 2012 00:15

Has the BVR testing from LCA occured yet? Shouldn't it occur before Dec 2012.

BVR/ WVR testing would be before the FOC possibly sometime mid 2013. By Dec 2012 A2G and assorted LGBs would be testing. Read that somewhere.

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Aug 2012 17:41

To put thing in perspective, F-35 has only completed 17% flight tests inspite of around 100 planes flying. The whole envelope 100% will be completed in 2017 when around 400 planes would be flying. Per US GAO report.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2012 17:48

- 17% with 100 in the air must surely rank as unique in aerospace history

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Aug 2012 19:23

Singha wrote: - 17% with 100 in the air must surely rank as unique in aerospace history

No. AM rajkumar told me that hundreds of Gripen AoA tests came after it went into servvice and lots of Eurofighter things were done after it entered service. But I doubt if 100 F-35s are flying. I would cross check that (mis?)information

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Aug 2012 21:16

rajanb wrote:^ I do not see a big order for the MK1, beyond what is ordered?:D

yes.. the initial order is just to emphasize IAF's support for LCA program, to convert it to a 4-legged cheetah with a Mk2 seal on it. In my understanding, when IAF ordered Mk1 with the 3 legged quote, it basically and solely ordered it from a perspective of a user rather developer. One must understand from their perspective as well. IN has different style of procure management and they support much more earlier in the development life cycle. IAF, I think is slowly getting a handle of it.

Time testing, but testing to verify and validate is a long drawn process... unless, we have matured system so configurable to change mission profiles easily. Even maasans would struggle.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Aug 2012 21:41

Good points.

F-35 Variant

Milestones First flown In testing Original IOC goal Current IOC estimate
F-35A December 15, 2006 2 @ Edwards AFB March 2013 2016
F-35B June 11, 2008 First hover: March 17, 2010 March 2012 TBD
F-35C June 6, 2010 1 @ NAS Patuxent River March 2015 2016

This first slide in this forum post lists canadian f-35 FOC to be 2025??.. IOC around 2013, which is now delayed to 2016 for everyone.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-16694.html

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Aug 2012 22:15

Wonderign what happened to teju he hasnt been flying for a month now

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 04 Aug 2012 10:05

suryag wrote:Wonderign what happened to teju he hasnt been flying for a month now

Could be they have frozen versions of all components & assemblies? I would have expected the various PVs and LSP's to each have something different. And bring them all up to the same EC? (Engineering Change)

Or the guys updating the website have disappeared for greener pastures?

On the other hand......nvm....too depressing to mention it.

I will go with the former. (being an incurable optimist, as always) The moment I hear the distinctive throaty, bass roar of an LCA, will post.

Cheers

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 04 Aug 2012 12:24

The main problem with LCA is that even in 2012 it is not as capable as a Mirage 2000. Please don't ask me how, you can take it or leave it.

Having said that, I am all for continuing with further development.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 04 Aug 2012 13:06

The main problem with F-35 is that even in 2012 it is not as capable as a F-16. Please don't ask me how, you can take it or leave it.

Having said that, I am all for continuing with further development.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 04 Aug 2012 17:21

for those who are interested in the book - "The TEJAS story" by air marshal A M Rajkumar, Book Here.

i got mine at Rs.525/- in 3 days.

now let me dive into it.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Aug 2012 18:36

Rajiv Lather wrote:The main problem with LCA is that even in 2012 it is not as capable as a Mirage 2000. Please don't ask me how, you can take it or leave it.

Having said that, I am all for continuing with further development.

M-2000 th, M-2000-5, M-2000-9 in what parameters, Bomb load yes, but Tejas is lighter fighter, we know nothing of comparable radar qualities, take off distance etc.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 04 Aug 2012 19:53

Marten wrote:Suryag, that cannot be right. I saw one fly lower than usual yesterday. Around 10am.
PS: Wasn't paying attention so perhaps it was a Hawk? Saw only the side profile for a fraction of second. Looked like a trainer version, but I'm not sure.

Twas a hawk. Engines slightly soprano-ish.

vic · Post by **vic** » 04 Aug 2012 20:15

LCA just needs to be better than retiring Mig-21s

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Aug 2012 20:39

^so, are you saying it is not? these are the problems with abstract thinking. one needs dig to details in telling where it differs, and how it should be better.

I see impatience and lowered tolerance towards LCA development schedule. Do we have any other choice given objectives?

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 08 Aug 2012 21:30

Its been close to a month since we have had updates on LCA Flight tests. Wonder what is happening

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Aug 2012 22:48

Okie my haseen sapna

It so happened that during the trials all the parameters were met and the AF wanted LSP7 and LSP5 for their evaluation. So LSP5/7 have been burned with the new FW and would be released to the force anytime now

*sigh* only if wishes were horses

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 13 Aug 2012 10:02

Did anyone, in BLR see an LCA taking off at 10:05 hrs today? It definitely wasn't a Jag, Hawk or Sitara roaring past with such haste (because of the sound). Unfortunately the cloud cover made it impossible to see which a/c it was. An SU/MiG could be the other possibilities.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Aug 2012 10:15

^^ Looked like a Hawk to me ( from far off distance through office window and clouds)

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 13 Aug 2012 10:40

I have seen Hawks take off in the recent past. The sound of the Hawk is a bit alto, in comparison. This one, was a deeper roar and in a great hurry to vanish. Can but just guess, unless Shiv is dawdling on the golf course.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 13 Aug 2012 11:18

list of imported hardware used to build the LCA, that ADA now wants to buy from within the country

http://www.aame.in/2012/08/imported-com ... light.html

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 Aug 2012 11:44

in the link above

http://www.ada.gov.in/ADA-IND.pdf

Tejas has completed over 2000 flights so far and continuing systemperformance and evaluation towards reaching Final Operational Clearance (FOC).

- so that is flight test update for you folks, the last known number was 1941

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 13 Aug 2012 11:59

^^^^^

SuryaG
So life is going on at a faster pace. Probably pushing the aircraft through its paces now.

Also, the fact that they want to india genius so many components means a lot of changes have been frozen after throrough testing through a specified minimum# of hours and conditions.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Aug 2012 21:11

Hiten wrote:list of imported hardware used to build the LCA, that ADA now wants to buy from within the country

http://www.aame.in/2012/08/imported-com ... light.html

Quite interesting list of for our private industries to grow with LCA. I wish them all the best, and request them to keep the quality above the imported specs.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 14 Aug 2012 10:23

rajanb wrote:Also, the fact that they want to india genius so many components means a lot of changes have been frozen after throrough testing through a specified minimum# of hours and conditions.

That's interesting, because I would imagine the opposite to be true. If they're going to replace one supplier with another, I would think that they would retest to make sure that the new supplier meets the specs of the old supplier as well. Anyone care to explain?