Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Aug 2012 14:20

gratifying. this could be our ground base weapon to take out big targets like tankers/AWACS/transports found 100s of KM away over tibet, south china or west pakistan.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 01 Aug 2012 15:48

yes indeed, it can easily take out awacs, tankers, transports and bombers and deny access even to large fighters. looking at the speed and accelaration, i am sure the missile is easily hardened for atleast 30 to 40G. With terminal speeds of over mach 5 and ability to steep dive, i dont think strengthening is needed.

If we can have a dual active radar and color IR seeker on it we can take down stealthy targets as well. We can win half the war by never even setting foot in enemy territory. Accompany this missile with a long range radar of around 1000km. I think with all the modifications we can easily get an effective range of 600-700 km from it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 01 Aug 2012 15:55

Nice idea! It requires a powerful radar to guide it to its target. Only the Mig 31BM is known to have a radar that can target planes above 300 km. We can start the initial guidance with larger radar (AWACS) and use the missile radar for terminal guidance. A bunch of these in the north east will ensure peace & stability in Tibet!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Aug 2012 16:13

the S500 that Rus is working on for IOC around 2018 is likely to have a "big missile" of this nature.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 01 Aug 2012 19:34

yes, i believe we certainly could use Shaurya as a starting point. Forget the S-500, we should work on this by ourselves, we will need to work on the long range radar as well, it offcourse my have a datalink for midcourse updates from awacs and other ground radars. However, it's primary fire control radar has to be the same that will be used for phase 2 of BMD, this new LR-swordfish should have a range of atleast 1000 to 1500 km range. We should easily be able to see all of Pak and half ormore of china with that thing.

If money is set aside and work begins today, we can i think have the missile ready for first test in two to 3 years since the changes needed are not that extensive, a quick redesign, keep the engine, replace the warhead, build a dual mode seeker or even a single mode active radar to begin with, rewrite the software to allow for self guided manuevering, work on a datalink.. etc this can be achieved very quickly.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 01 Aug 2012 19:42

Singha wrote:the S500 that Rus is working on for IOC around 2018 is likely to have a "big missile" of this nature.


S-500 will only end up with a range of 500km and probably match the SM-3 in performance at best. I think our Shaurya based sam can easily have a range of 700 km or more considering the Shaurya itself can fly over 1200 km with a smaller payload. Moreover, we don't even have to work on the ground based canisterized launcher since this is ready for shaurya.

We then only need to put it on a large S-400 style tractor with 3 canisters per launcher, have a group of 5 launchers per battalion and 4 battalions per regiment and we end up 60 missiles per regiment and the enemy defecating profusely even at the thought of war with us :)

10 such regiments will cover the entire neighbourhood well enough.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Aug 2012 21:51

the 40N6E missile (SA-21) in the S-400 complex which is latest missile to join the umbrella is reported by Kopp sir as 450km range.
fit the profile of Shourya nicely.

The second missile added to the S-400 is the new 40N6, a long range weapon with a cited range of 215 nautical miles, equipped with an active and semi-active homing seeker, intended to kill AWACS, JSTARS and other high value assets, such as EA-6B/EA-18G support jammers. Further details of this weapon remain to be disclosed. The range improvement to around twice that of the 48N6E2 suggests a two stage weapon, or a much larger motor casing with a larger propellant load. Russian media reports citing PVO senior officers in 2010 indicated that 40N6 range may be a great as 240 nautical miles, and the missile completed State Trials (Russian OpEval) in 2010, and was to enter production. To date no images of the 40N6 missile, launcher container or TEL have been made public

Extended range missile shots typically involve ballistic flight profiles with apogees in excess of 40 km. The protracted development of the 40N6 suggests that directional control through the upper portions of the flight profile may have presented difficulties. One advantage of such flight profiles is that the missile converts potential energy into kinetic energy during the terminal phase of its flight, accelerating as it dives on its target. This provides higher endgame G capability in comparison with flatter cruise profiles used in legacy designs.

we can mount a triple or quad dose of Shourya VLRSAM in this typical Russi manner,
http://www.ausairpower.net/PVO-S/S-400- ... TE2-1S.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Aug 2012 21:54

unless taken down by a ABM system of Cheen, this Shourya VLRSAM diving down at Mach8 from the edge of space will be unstoppable vs large lumbering targets like AWACS and tankers that present a big RCS and being a big missile its active radar will also be big aperture and long range.

some form of mid course updates will however be necessary as the intercept range is long and targets are moving at 800-900 kmph. last 100km it can go active....or maybe stay silent until last 20km and use semi-active mode to preserve surprise.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 02 Aug 2012 00:13

nachiket wrote:
John wrote:AAD uses active seeker command guidance is impractical at range beyond 50 KM or against fast moving targets.

Do you mean maneuverable targets? If it is ineffective against fast moving targets, it wouldn't be much of a BMD system would it?

Not sure what you mean both ABM missiles have active seeker for terminal guidance not command guidance? Yes command guidance is impractical when you have maneuvering target at high speeds.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 02 Aug 2012 00:22

"India's missile power will be enhanced with defence scientists now working towards increasing the range of various missiles. The range of surface-to-air missiles, which is presently 50 km will be increased to 300 km."

Referring to the pure ballistic range perhaps - Akash's powered range is given as 25-28 km. So, a 300km missile would be firmly in the S-3XX class. Possibly an enhanced LR/MRSAM.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is also aiming to increase the range of air-to-surface missiles up to 400 km and air-to-air missiles up to 300 km, according to Avinash Chander, DRDO chief controller R&D (missiles and strategic systems) and director Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL).


Air to Surface...AL Brahmos range++ or a version of the possible Air Launched Nuke missile quoted in the media or a modified version of the Prahar (again media reported)..

Avinash Chander who spoke at the silver jubilee celebrations of Hardware-in-loop Simulation (HILS) at the Research Centre Imarat (RCI) here also explained the big plans of DRDO for the future including on the tactical missiles front. He said work was on the 1.'seek and destroy' class of missiles, 2.smart bombs, 3.underwater cruise missiles.


1.SFW style munitions
2. LGBs/GPS/Glonass guided bombs
3. UW launched Nirbhay (when it comes)

"We are confident that we can make our weaponry capabilities better than world class," he said.


Excellent. Indicates that they have been working on all this for a while.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 02 Aug 2012 02:19

Good/big thinking Septimus. However, I feel Shourya in its present form, will be unsuitable for this purpose. Its too bulky/heavy, coming in at 7 tons. The 40N6 and 48N6E2 are in the 2 ton range. Moreover, its not designed to attack maneuvering targets and doesn't have the necessary control surfaces, thrust vectoring engines etc that a dedicated anti-air missile has.

However, a Shourya-lite can be used effectively against slow moving tankers, AWACS etc as mentioned by both you and Singha. If it uses a lofted trajectory like 40N6, it doesnt need to carry the enormous amount of fuel for a 40KM atmospheric cruise. So, the weight can be significantly reduced.

Another option for a long range A2A missile dedicated to taking out tankers & AWACS would be air-launched Brahmos itself.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 02 Aug 2012 07:43

'China Worried Over India's Missile Deployment Plans'
India's plans to deploy BrahMos supersonic missiles in Arunachal Pradesh along the border with China is a matter of "concern", a state-run daily here said today.

Referring to the successful testing of 290 km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile by India on Sunday, a report in the state-run Chinese edition of the Global Times said "the concern is because India has declared the deployment of three groups of these missiles to enhance deterrence" at the Sino-Arunachal Pradesh border.

China refers to Arunachal Pradesh as "Southern Tibet".
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Aug 2012 07:54

>>the 40N6 and 48N6E2 are in the 2 ton range.

there is no pic or released specs of the 40N6 yet..given its range of 450km an ceiling of around 120,000ft I doubt it will just be 2t.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby bmallick » 02 Aug 2012 08:03

Well the Shaurya need not be the one doing terminal maneuvering. It already has capability to carry 200-1000 kg payload. Why not put in 3-4 AAM's like Astra as the payload. in that case just modify the payload bay of Shaurya, add mid course guidance. Once Shaurya is 15-20 km of the enemmy AWACS, it releases its Astra's, after providing them with the Target inputs. So the final maneuvering is then left to the mush smaller and agile Astra. Also with multiple Astra's seeking & targeting the AWACS, the kill probability is almost 100 %.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Aug 2012 09:54

putting in 2nd stage missiles like SM6 uses amraam KV will entail years of testing. and no astra is in service yet to tinker with.
as a first soln, the basic idea would be better, then develop it further with aesa radars, passive ARM seeker, astra kv etc. atleast most of the challenges would be worked out by then.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 02 Aug 2012 10:16

Saraswat refers to a program me called Pravira in his lectures, what is it? Our BMD?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pravula » 02 Aug 2012 10:19

Granit style swarm of Astras launched from Shaurya targeting an AWACS 1000+ KM away ..... One can dream.....:twisted:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vishvak » 02 Aug 2012 11:20

pravula wrote:Granit style swarm of Astras launched from Shaurya targeting an AWACS 1000+ KM away ..... One can dream.....:twisted:

However there are a few advantages of this tech too. One is burning off fuel to avoid hits, reducing ways in which it can operate till missiles hit, etc. Not sure though how it can affect AWACS since it is not too short on fuel or reach. Just dreaming!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Mihir.D » 02 Aug 2012 13:38

Why can't we put a Barak8 on the shaurya ? I remember reading it weighs around 300 kg. That would be 3 B 8's per shaurya.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 02 Aug 2012 14:21

Offcourse the shaurya can't be used in its current form, we can certainly use the engine, the basic design, cut the massive 1 ton warhead to 100 kg, except for the engine the entire missile should be smaller in scale, the current shuarya can fly 1200km+ with a light payload, that is just over kill, an ideal effective kill range should be 750 to 800km, more than enough.
Last edited by member_20453 on 02 Aug 2012 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Aug 2012 14:54

India Presses Ahead With Missile Projects

NEW DELHI — India’s defense research agency has developed its first submarine-launched ballistic missile and plans to develop a new range of missiles to boost the country’s military.

The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is working toward surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles with a range of 300 km (186 mi.) and air-to-surface missiles with a range of 400 km, according to Avinash Chander, DRDO’s chief controller of Research & Development (missiles and strategic systems) says. India currently has surface-to-air missiles with a 50 km range.

“The [future goal] is to realize micro- and nano-missiles using MEMS [micro-electromechanical systems] and NEMS [nano-electromechanical systems] technologies,” Chander says. “A nano-missile with low cost and low weight is what we are aiming for.”

DRDO also has plans to develop seek-and-destroy tactical missiles, smart bombs and submarine-launched cruise missiles, he adds.

According to a DRDO official, India has recently developed its first submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) for the indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant. “Now, the SLBM system is ready for induction,” the official says.

India’s first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine, the 6,000-ton INS Arihant, is still undergoing harbor acceptance trials and soon will undertake extensive sea acceptance trials. This will be followed by a test firing of the 10-ton SLBM, which can carry a 1-ton nuclear payload, from the missile silos on the ship.

The SLBM project has been under wraps for quite some time, unlike India’s other missile programs such as the Agni series. Specifications of the new SLBM are not immediately known, but its strike range is believed to be around 700 km.

The development of the underwater-launched ballistic missile will help India in completing its nuclear triad, giving it the ability to strike from air, land and under the sea. Apart from India, this capability has been acquired only by four nations: The U.S., Russia, France and China.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 03 Aug 2012 06:38

Saik, an air launch can have varying starting velocities for Brahmos, the booster would have to normalize that to a minimum speed that the ramjet 2nd stage needs to ignite and accelerate

reduce that minimum speed, the booster size is reduced enabling more to be carried on the MKI, currently the air launched missile's weight is capped at 2.5 tons

from the recent video, the 2nd stage started in the subsonic regime and reaches 2.8 mach cruise speed, so it might be possible that they have throttle control on the ramjet which improves maneuverablity

again from the video, the 2nd stage had no plume and seemed stealthy, earlier videos didn't show the stage separation

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby MN Kumar » 08 Aug 2012 16:19

Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister of India, Dr. V.K. Saraswat checks out the Cannon Launched Guided Missile [Projectile] currently under development at the DRDO
Image
Never heard about this...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 08 Aug 2012 16:56

Preparations on for Agni-II launch tomorrow

Preparations are moving into top gear for the launch of Agni-II ballistic missile from the Wheeler Island on August 9, 2012. It will be a practice launch for the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) of the Army, which (SFC) is tasked with launching missiles that will carry nuclear warheads. The launch will take place from a rail-mobile system on the Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast. Agni-II is a surface-to-surface missile that can carry a nuclear warhead weighing one tonne. But in the mission on Thursday, it will carry only a dummy payload. The missile’s range is 2,500 km.

Agni-II, developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has already been inducted into the Army. It has two stages and both use solid fuel. The missile is more than 20 metres long and weighs 17 tonnes.

The SFC is looking forward to launching Agni-II on August 9 after it launched Agni-I missile on July 13, 2012. The flight of Agni-I on that day was flawless. Agni-I has a range of 700 km and it can carry nuclear warheads.

After the spectacular success of Agni-V, with a range of more than 5,000 km, during its maiden launch in April 2012, Agni variants “with different ranges, various capabilities, different platforms and the ability to deploy are getting tested,” DRDO missile technologists said. Agni-IV will also be flight-tested.

BrahMos, India’s supersonic cruise missile, failed in its flight on July 29, 2012. Informed sources said BrahMos developed “some problems” during its flight and “it deviated from its path.” It could not travel its full range of 290 km and fell into the Bay of Bengal. A committee has been set up to analyse the telemetry. “It is not a serious problem in the system. The failure perhaps had something to do with production, with the indigenisation process,” the sources said.

A press release on that day, however, did not mention that BrahMos had failed in its flight. It merely said the 32 flight test of BrahMos took place at 10.30 a.m. from a test range at Chandipur, off the Odisha coast, as part of the development trials. The objective of the mission was to evaluate some of the newer sub-systems which were produced by the Indian industry as part of the product stabilisation
, it said. More than 25 such systems were incorporated in the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 08 Aug 2012 17:50

Any news from chaiwala on Nirbhay? Isn't it's test is due this month?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 08 Aug 2012 19:00

MN Kumar wrote:Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister of India, Dr. V.K. Saraswat checks out the Cannon Launched Guided Missile [Projectile] currently under development at the DRDO
Image deleted
Never heard about this...


It is version of LAHAT being developed by DRDO with Israel.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 08 Aug 2012 19:09

Rebuttal to Manoj Joshi's hatchet job on BMD.

'The Indian missile shield: nothing to be baffled about'

by Mihir Shah

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... -shah.html

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 08 Aug 2012 21:22

Nice Rebuttal.. Thanks for writing/sharing.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SKrishna » 08 Aug 2012 22:10

Rahul M wrote:Rebuttal to Manoj Joshi's hatchet job on BMD.

'The Indian missile shield: nothing to be baffled about'

by Mihir Shah

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... -shah.html



Gladdens my heart to read this rebuttal. Bravo team BR :D :D :D :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Aug 2012 02:34

Rahul M wrote:Rebuttal to Manoj Joshi's hatchet job on BMD.

'The Indian missile shield: nothing to be baffled about'

by Mihir Shah

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... -shah.html



Another point is that since its an exo/endosphere intercept, the modified Prithvi can mimic the target payload.

Prithivi is an aero-ballastic vehicle. It does not re-enter.

RahuM, Look up the German Wasserfall. Looks like its the progenitor of most post WWII liquid fuel vehicles since then.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pranav » 09 Aug 2012 09:54

MN Kumar wrote:Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister of India, Dr. V.K. Saraswat checks out the Cannon Launched Guided Missile [Projectile] currently under development at the DRDO

Never heard about this...


Source? Can this compare with Excalibur guided artillery?
Last edited by Pranav on 09 Aug 2012 09:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Ramesh » 09 Aug 2012 09:57

Rediff reporting Agni 2 successfully fired as part of user trial.
09:49 Agni-II successfully test fired: Sharpening its missile teeth, India today successfully test-fired its medium range nuclear capable Agni-II missile with a strike range of 2000 km as part of a user trial by the army from the Wheeler Island off Odisha coast.

"The trial of the surface-to-surface missile was conducted from a mobile launcher from the Launch Complex-4 of Integrated Test Range at 8:48 am," defence sources said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_19969 » 09 Aug 2012 19:35


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 09 Aug 2012 21:07

Good Work, Mihir, Saurav, Rahul et al. One suggestion - using Red State / Blue State in the hypothetical example would have made easier reading, and more inline with simulated military exercises.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Aug 2012 08:39

Pranav wrote:
Source? Can this compare with Excalibur guided artillery?


IIRC, Excalibur is 155 MM gps round

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Amitabh » 10 Aug 2012 20:32

Rahul M wrote:Rebuttal to Manoj Joshi's hatchet job on BMD.

'The Indian missile shield: nothing to be baffled about'

by Mihir Shah

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... -shah.html

Good rebuttal, but not all the points are convincing:

(1) I understand the Game of Thrones analogy (which btw would be lost on someone who is not familiar with the book/show and should be simplified to illustrate the point IMO) on virtual attrition but you have to be damned sure that the marginal cost of building offensive capability exceeds the marginal cost of building defensive capability. Remember you are building defenses against Pakistan and China, and bankruptcy could beckon if this implicit cost assumption is proved wrong;

(2) An expansion in Pakistan strategic weapons is a given and may even be underway from various press reports (some of which suggest that Pak nukes exceed Indian nukes in number). While the rebuttal tries to convince this is a positive (given economic realities), it neglects the increased complexity and C2 risks that flow from higher numbers of Pak nukes and the increased risk of inadvertent use and/or theft by non-state actors. Given the current situation in Pakistan the latter is arguably as serious a danger as any and an Indian policymaker should weigh the risks of increased numbers of Pak weapons very seriously. Also should we look at the Pak economy in isolation? Will China not be tempted to buttress the Pak arsenal?

However one point that would strengthen one of Mihir Shah's points is that the US has an interest in inflating the China threat while underplaying Indian capabilities, so it can hardly be considered a neutral umpire as Manoj Joshi does.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2012 23:20

Well said Amitabh.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 11 Aug 2012 00:06

ramana wrote:kanson, Recall the video of the A-I terminal phase? Can you estimate the height of burst from the approximate RV speed and the time of splashdown?

Thanks, raman


Yes sir, it is more than 100 meters at the minimum. To be bit more accurate, it could be 120+ meters if there are no errors purposefully induced in the video but I think that may not be the case.

For comparison, Hiroshima burst happened at ~ 600 meters and Nagasaki at ~500 meters.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Aug 2012 00:17

So at that height it can take out buried structures too. I was thinking of RATs (Rogue Army of Terrorists) hiding in ratholes (ala Saddam Hussein) thinking they are command bunkers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Mihir » 11 Aug 2012 00:18

Amitabh, tsarkar, appreciate the comments. My responses follow.

1. The Game of Thrones analogy: I understand that it adds a little 'masala' to what should be a more serious discussion, but without the analogy, the section explaining why the system was worth it looked like a boring wall of text that most casual readers would rather skim over. I was wondering about how I would make it more interesting, when the idea of explaining the concept via the example of a cold war in Westeros came to me

2. The economic angle: The easiest way to increase the effectiveness of an existing ABM system is to add more launchers and missiles to a network. Earlier, this would have been difficult to do given older computers' lack of processing power and would quickly become unweildy for a legacy C4I system to handle. But today, these constraints no longer exist. And in the future as computers become even more powerful and algorithms more sophisticated, the system should become better and better at detecting, filtering, classifying, and prioritising inbound threats. The same advances, however, will do little to increase the offensive capability of ballistic missiles. All this pushes the game further in favour of the defence. Coming to the cost itself, the major cost and complexity of BMD lies in the C4I system; the rockets themselves are relatively simple and cheap. On the other hand, increasing the count of ballistic missiles means investing more money into the development and production of missiles that are many times as complex, into production of enough fissile material to arm these missiles (the overriding constraint, IMO), setting up a C4I system for every new unit that is raised, and then arranging security for all these systems. This is why I said that expanding and upgrading a BMD system would be far more cost-effective as compared to building more nukes.

3. What if the Pakistanis build so many nukes that they are unable to secure them and they fall into the hands of "non-state actors"? If The Pakistanis indeed choose to go down this path, it will be fraught with grave risks for them. Any nuclear attack on India originating from Pakistan will automatically draw an Indian response. Whether it is due to non-state actors (made-up or genuine) or a deliberate attack by the Pakistani government will not matter. Are they willing to risk annihilation at India's hands by allowing for the possibility of these nukes falling into the wrong hands? More importantly, are they willing to accept the risk of terrorist entities acting against the Pakistani state itself and lobbing a nuke on Pindi? I think not.

4. The China angle: Bringing the Chinese into the picture admittedly complicates the matter further. But my counter to that is: do the Chinese have the capability to produce enough warheads to overwhelm a hypothetical Indian BMD system *and* restore the balance with India to what it was in the past, all the while maintaining a balance against the US/Japan/Korea/Taiwan as well? Or will they be forced to accept and live with a relative disadvantage with respect to India?[/list]


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