Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[shiv]

The main reason is the pshycological condition of the colonized people. If one Tilaks book and other leaders before Indepedence , we find that they considered themselves to be similar to the white europeans. This is due to unique contact of the British with the Indians in India from 1600s. Once the English figured out that Indians are numerous in number they had to coopt them. English Merchants kept excellant relationship with the Indian merchants throughtout. They made the uppercaste feel as if they were similar to the British. Colonial Maps of political geography showed India as similiar race(Aryans) to the British.

Acharya would you (or anyone else) be able to name some reference texts/urls for the two quotes above that are in bold and underlined text that I can add to my collection of research material for something I want to write on this subject.

[svinayak]

The main reason is the pshycological condition of the colonized people. If one Tilaks book and other leaders before Indepedence , we find that they considered themselves to be similar to the white europeans. This is due to unique contact of the British with the Indians in India from 1600s. Once the English figured out that Indians are numerous in number they had to coopt them. English Merchants kept excellant relationship with the Indian merchants throughtout. They made the uppercaste feel as if they were similar to the British. Colonial Maps of political geography showed India as similiar race(Aryans) to the British.

Acharya would you (or anyone else) be able to name some reference texts/urls for the two quotes above that are in bold and underlined text that I can add to my collection of research material for something I want to write on this subject.

Tilaks book - The ORION is avialble. You can get the quotes directly
Orion or the antiquity of the vedas. (1893)

http://archive.org/details/orionortheantiqu021979mbp


Google for Political geography and you can many books. Look for maps in the books which are written before 1920s. Between 1880 and 1920s the INC elite were together with the British elite.

Some examples
http://www.geography.wisc.edu/histcart/ ... fernan.pdf

[Atri]

Orion has few pretty good archaeo-astronomical pointers from Rigveda, though.. The famous of all -

Who awakened the Rubhu? Dogs, because its beginning of Monsoon.

Here, RBhu is clouds and it refers to period when monsoon began in Mriga nakshatra.. (around 6000 BCE)..

[Vayutuvan]

matrimc
Can you help estimate the error in Voyager (and other archaeostronomy) software due to round -offs and dependence on initial conditions? Is it really accurate to ~3 dgrees for positions 7000 years ago.

As I am computer scientists, my astronomy knowledge is very limited - I would even say v.v. limited. I only know that galaxy and star cluster simulations use n-body algorithms. Never having worked on the problem formulation side I have to say I would be of no help in that direction.

[RajeshA]

One of the more difficult issues related to the Aryan Invasion Theory is the extent to which it is attractive to Indians. It is ironic that the theory was not only without any truth or merit, but it was used to make the conqueror/coloniser (British) win allies among the Indian population.

No firm lines were drawn, but vague lines were drawn saying that forward caste=lighter skin=superior=Aryan=Sanskrit language based North Indian, Indao-Aryan language speaker. Backward caste=dark skinned= Dravdian=non Indo-Aryan speaker=South Indian.

Indians believe this and the Wit-mer prize has for long been cornered by Indians.

It you look at forward caste versus backward caste percentages in India you find that even in north Indian states like Rajasthan, Gujarat and UP, backward castes make up more than half the population. Yet the racist theories are attractive, and because they are attractive, they lead secondarily to discrimination and the apology-penance ("We're so sorry") of reservation.

In the last 200 years the west has placed itself as the pinnacle of power and innovation, and that has been associated with white and European. One class of Indians have been made to feel good about themselves for being fair skinned India European speakers and imagine that they belong a special higher class of Indian. That classification is fake and baseless. Forget Witzel. How about changing perceptions inside India?

shiv saar,

From a personal experience recently, an Indian school friend of mines, buys/bought the AI Theory hook, line and sinker, and skin color was not the only difference. He also spoke of the build of the people!!! I tried to tell him otherwise. Don't know how far it changed his opinion... He is from a Brahmin family, and is also tall and fair and a bodybuilder. Well ...

I too think the Brits were great in co-opting many among the upper castes. Rajiv Malhotra speaks about how some "Indian Gurus" are all in the sameness message, trying to blunt the differences between Hinduism and West, trying to translate Hindu metaphysics into English using English vocabulary, etc. Even this phenomenon, I would consider to a large extent, the effect of AIT at some subliminal level, where they themselves neither see the difference, nor do they see the need for difference and are willing to make concessions on Hindu metaphysics, rather than see the whites as racially a different civilization from them, due to the Aryan connection. In fact, AIT has reached the BIOS level among many "Indian Gurus" and they are willing to let Hinduism be digested if it allows them to feel close to the "pure Aryan beej"! This is akin to 'guardians of our faith' to open the doors of the Hindu fortress at night and allow the Templar Knights to walk in! In principle, I see this opening of Indian philosophy to the West okay, if there are no doctrinal philosophical linguistic concessions on the part of Hinduism, and digestion is resisted. I wonder if those "Indian Gurus" would act the same with equally TFTA Japanese or Chinese! I believe it is only with whites (Anglo-Germans), one would see that!

So as I see it, AIT is working at many levels.

[Nilesh Oak]

matrimc
Can you help estimate the error in Voyager (and other archaeostronomy) software due to round -offs and dependence on initial conditions? Is it really accurate to ~3 dgrees for positions 7000 years ago.
Nilesh ji apologies if you have already covered these error estimates. My copy of your book is on order.

AniB Ji,

I have not specifically spent time on checking accuracy of Voyager 4.5, however to date I have used many different softwares and Voyager has replicated results (correct results.. but not erroneous) obtained by other softwares.

accuracy of~ 3 degreess for positions around 7000 BP (5000 BC)...what specific observation you have in mind?

Please do write 'Brutally honest -critique/review) of my book Amazon, when you have read it.

[SRoy]

RajeshA, One also needs to take account of the yuga or kala of Sri Yukteswarji. Indian civilization was under Macaulayite attack and Western time scale linked to the idea of Biblical beginnings. So he might have reduced the time scale factor to be in conformity with Western ideas of beginnings.

Most commentators have the long scale for the yugas.

I believe the Hindu version of time for the modern version mankind progresses too rapidly.

Its not due to West induced Bibilical timeline. As you may notice Sri Yukteswar mentions a 24000 year of Yuga cycle, among other things. A primary reason for his arguements...if you take a note of a balance of human years for present Kaliyuga, its a very depressing scenario. Atleast that's how it appeared to me, Sri Yukteswar timescale will cheer you up.

[Nilesh Oak]

Orion has few pretty good archaeo-astronomical pointers from Rigveda, though.. The famous of all -

Who awakened the Rubhu? Dogs, because its beginning of Monsoon.

Here, RBhu is clouds and it refers to period when monsoon began in Mriga nakshatra.. (around 6000 BCE)..

Assumption - Interpretation of Ribus refers to beginnning of Monsoon in Mriga.

Tilak's interpretation is correct, however his timing of 6000 BC based on this reference is wrong. Of course Tilak knew how to interpret it property, did interpet it but decided to choose alternate timeline. I will not go into the details other than refeering reader to his 'Orion'.

Monsooon begins (rather pre-Monsoon rains) on Mriga in our times. (To be accurate, Mriga will coincide with point of summer solstice - beginning of Monsoon.. 600 years in the future ~2600 AD).

Assuming that all (including AIT Nazis) would agree that Rigveda was not written in our times (or will be writeen 600 years from now in future), Time for DRRRRRRRRRM ROOOOOOOOOLLLLLL

Last time Mrigashirsha nakshatra and point of summer solstice (beginning of Monsoon) coincided were during 23000 BC. (RajeshA ji, I hope you are taking note of this.). This reference, in addition to that of Fall of Abhijit, alludes to estblished nakshatra system (knowlege of solstices, equinoxes, etc.) going back to (at least) 23000 BC!

As as a reference during 6000 BC, summer solstice (beginning of Monsoon) was near Chitra.

[Nilesh Oak]

As a reference, during 6000 BC, summer solstice (beginning of Monsoon) was near Nakshatra Chitra.

[RajeshA]

Last time Mrigashirsha nakshatra and point of summer solstice (beginning of Monsoon) coincided were during 23000 BC. (RajeshA ji, I hope you are taking note of this.). This reference, in addition to that of Fall of Abhijit, alludes to estblished nakshatra system (knowlege of solstices, equinoxes, etc.) going back to (at least) 23000 BC!

Someday my eyes would pop out of my head, fall down somewhere, and I may not be able to find them!

[Nilesh Oak]

Last time Mrigashirsha nakshatra and point of summer solstice (beginning of Monsoon) coincided were during 23000 BC. (RajeshA ji, I hope you are taking note of this.). This reference, in addition to that of Fall of Abhijit, alludes to estblished nakshatra system (knowlege of solstices, equinoxes, etc.) going back to (at least) 23000 BC!

Someday my eyes would pop out of my head, fall down somewhere, and I may not be able to find them!

The relevant verse of Rigveda 1:161:13 (Ribhus)

सुषुप्वांस रभवस्तदप्र्छतागोह्य क इदं नो अबूबुधत |
शवानं बस्तो बोधयितारमब्रवीत सम्वत्सर इदमद्या वयख्यत ||

13 When ye had slept your fill, ye Ṛbhus, thus ye asked, O thou whom naught may hide, who now hath wakened us?
The goat declared the hound to be your wakener. That day, in a full year, ye first unclosed our eyes.

The translation is by Griffith. It is very poor, but that is the nature of Rigveda (Ancient Indian commentators struggle, so imagine the challenge of those who are not familiar with culure/language/etc.)

And if 'Shwan' of this Sukta of Rigveda is taken to mean Canis Major (Sirius) and/or Canis Minor (Procyon), then we will have to push this time (watch your eyes RajeshA ji) further in antiquity to 26000 BC!

[member_23687]

Gentlemen,

I think it is clear from this thread and recent research that the Aryan migration theory has been debunked. It is essentially dead. However, how does the demise of this theory affect the veracity of actual historical record of more recent migrations from Central Asia and the East such as those of the Kushanas, Huns, Sakas, Pahlavas, Kambojas, Paradas, Rishika, Tusharas, Vokanas, Vahlika, Vahlava, Tangana, Limpaka, Turukshas, Medii, Xanthii, Massagetae, White Huns, Ger, Gurjis, Khazar, Gatae etc.

Unlike the Aryan invasion theory which has hazy timelines and really no direct historical record, these above mentioned migrations have been more recent and have volumonous historical record. How credible is this historical record about these more recent migrations ?

[ramana]

Return of the Aryans who became unArya or uncivilized after their emigration?

[SaiK]

or the revenge of the aryans who became aryas and uncivilized now question about AiTs?

[Nilesh Oak]

BobbyP

You seems to have these records. First you tell us what the records state and then we can explore the credibility of those records.

In addition, what is the releavance of these more recent migrations for OIT?

[shiv]

Gentlemen,

I think it is clear from this thread and recent research that the Aryan migration theory has been debunked. It is essentially dead. However, how does the demise of this theory affect the veracity of actual historical record of more recent migrations from Central Asia and the East such as those of the Kushanas, Huns, Sakas, Pahlavas, Kambojas, Paradas, Rishika, Tusharas, Vokanas, Vahlika, Vahlava, Tangana, Limpaka, Turukshas, Medii, Xanthii, Massagetae, White Huns, Ger, Gurjis, Khazar, Gatae etc.

Unlike the Aryan invasion theory which has hazy timelines and really no direct historical record, these above mentioned migrations have been more recent and have volumonous historical record. How credible is this historical record about these more recent migrations ?

What voluminous record? I have not heard of most of those names and would like to see voluminous records and dates. They may all be correct, but unless the records are put up for criticism and re-appraisal we will not know.

[Nilesh Oak]

Feynman on Scientific Method

Relevant for looking at any theory (AIT is obvious candidate in this thread) but worth watching and remembering the insights, as forum members evaluate new theories and proposals, as they are thrown at us between the covers of glossy academic journals.

Ignore the laughter from audience. For some reason, most of it is ill-timed and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... -3FRw&NR=1

[member_23687]

Nilesh and Shiv,

There is plenty of record. I have read about these people in several history books since childhood. I cannot offhand find those history books, but I will look.

The mixed Scythian hordes that migrated to Drangiana and surrounding regions, later spread further into north and south-west India via the lower Indus valley. Their migration spread into Sovira, Gujarat, Rajasthan and northern India, including kingdoms in the Indian mainland.

We all know about Kushana dynasty that ruled India, Kanishka being the most prominent historical figure of that dynasty.

I am sure you all must have also read extensively about the Huns and the White Huns (they were racially different from each other).

I am also sure you all must have read extensively about the Saka Empire (Western Satraps) who were also known as Indo-Scythians. There is literature such as Annals and Antiquities by Col Tod and lots of others that attribute Indo-Scythian origins to Rajputs and Gurjar-Pratiharas.

Indo-Parthians also feature heavily in history books and I am sure you will remember them from your history books during childhood.

"There are important references to the warring Mleccha hordes of the Shakas, Yavanas, Kambojas and Pahlavas in the Bala Kanda of the Valmiki Ramayana." - Wiki

There are references in Mahabharata to Pahlavas, Kambojas, Paradas, Rishika, Tusharas, Vokanas, Vahlika, Vahlava, Tangana, Limpaka, Turukshas, as people living in Central Asia and having migrated south.

However, I have done searches on the web and the web is teeming with references to these people and their migrations into India. I am posting some examples below, I will not post all the information I found on the web, as those can be pulled up by you as well if you simply do a google search and secondly, I have no way of knowing which references are more credible. Because I did not know how credible these sources were, I asked the question.

"

steppe. The earliest Scythians who entered the northern regions of South Asia were from this group.
Historians derive "Jat" fom "Gatae", "Ahir" from "Avar", "Saka" from "Scythii", "Gujjar" from "Khazar",
"Thakur" from "Tukharian", "Saurashtra" from "Saura Matii" or "Sarmatians", "Sessodia" (a Rajput clan)
from "Sassanian", "Madra" from "Medes", "Trigartta" from "Tyri Getae" and "Sulika" from "Seleucids".
"Massa" means "grand" or "big" in old Iranian - the language of the Scythians.

The early Sakas or Scythians are remembered by Greek (e.g. Herodotus, Megatheses, Pliny, Ptolemy)
and Persian historians of antiquity as tall, large framed and fierce warriors who were unrivalled on the
horse. Herodotus from the 5th century BC writes in an eye-witness account of the Scythians: "they were
the most manly and law-abiding of the Thracian tribes. If they could combine under one ruler, they would
be the most powerful nation on earth." According to their origin myth recorded by Herodotus, the Sakas
arose when three things fell from the sky: the i) plough, ii) sword and iii) cup. The progenitor of the Sakas
picked them up and hence the Saka race began its long history of conquering lands, releasing its bounties
and enjoying the fruits of their labor (the cup has a ceremonial-spiritual-festive symbolism). The relevance
of these symbols and codes of life and culture to the traditional Punjabi and northwest society are
tantalizingly obvious. A branch of the Sakas kown as the Alani reached regions of Europe, Asia Minor
and the Middle East. They have been connected to the Goths of France/Spain, Saxons and the Juts of
Denmark.

Entry into Southasia

Some of these Saka tribes entered northwest Southasia through the Khyber pass, others through the more
southerly Bolan pass which opens into Dera Ismail Khan in Sindh. From here some invading groups went north, others went south, and others further east. This explains why some Jat, Gujjar and Rajput clans claim descent from Rajasthan (Chauhan, Powar, Rathi, Sial etc.) while others from Afghanistan (e.g. Mann, Her, Bhullar, Gill, Bajwa, Sandhu, etc.). This is supported by the fact that the oldest Rajput geneologies (10th
centuries) do not extend into the northwest's Gandharan Buddhist period (400 B.C. - 900 AD).

Sir Cunningham (former Director General of Indian Archeological survey) writes:

"the different races of the Scythians which succesively appeared as conquerors in the
border provinces of Persian and India are the following in the order of arrival: Sakas or
Sacae (the Su or Sai of the Chinese - B.C. ?), Kushans (the great Yue-Chi (Yuti) of the
Chinese - B.C. 163), Kiddarite or later Kushans (the little Yue-chi of the Chinese - A.D.
450) and Epthalites or White Huns (the Yetha of the Chinese - 470 A.D.).

Cunningham further notes that

". . . the successive Scythian invasions of the Sakas, the Kushans, and the White Huns,
were followed by permanent settlements of large bodies of their countrymen . . ".

Cunningham and Tod regard the Huns to be the last Scythian wave to have entered India.

Herodotus reveals that the Scythians as far back as the 5th century B.C. had political control over Central
Asia and the northern subcontinent up to the river Ganges. Later Indo-Scythic clans and dynasties (e.g.
Mauryas, Rajputs) extended their control to other tracts of the northern subcontinent.

According to Ethnographers and historians like Cunningham, Todd, Ibbetson, Elliot, Ephilstone, Dahiya,
Dhillon, Banerjea, etc., the agrarian and artisan communities (e.g. Jats, Gujars, Ahirs, Rajputs, Lohars,
Tarkhans etc.) of the entire west are derived from the war-like Scythians who settled north-western and
western South Asia in successive waves between 500 B.C. to 500 AD. Down to this day, the very name
of the region `Gujarat' is derived from the name `Khazar', whilst `Saurashtra' denotes `Sun-worshipper', a
common term for the Scythians. The northwest Southasian region continues to be the most Scythic region in the world.

The oldest Rajputs clans arose much later from earlier Scythic groups; or are of Hun origin (5-6th century AD); and many are no doubt of mixed Scythic-Hun origin. Virtually all are of Scythic descent.

----------------------------


The Sakas - Indo-Scythians
Jason Neelis

Saka nomads from Central Asia migrated to the northwest of South
Asian subcontinent in the first and second centuries BCE. Herodotus
(4.1-142) describes the extent, customs, and origins of various
groups of Scythians (designation for Sakas in Western classical
sources) who inhabited large areas of the steppes of Central Asia on
the northern peripheries of the Greek world. The Sakas are also
known from Old Persian inscriptions of the Achaemenid Empire. The
Naqs-i-Rustam inscription of Darius I distinguishes three groups of
Sakas:

1) Saka Tigraxauda: "Sakas wearing the pointed cap" who are
portrayed in a sculpture at Behistun and described by Herodotus
(7.64) as "clad in trousers" and having "on their heads tall stiff
caps rising to a point"; these Sakas lived between the Caspian Sea
and the Jaxartes River (Syr Daria);

2) Saka Haumavarga: "hauma-drinking" or "hauma-preparing" Sakas
(hauma is a type of alcoholic beverage) identified with the Amyrgian
Scythians of Greek sources, possibly located in the southeastern
Iranian province of Drangiana, which later became known as Sakastan
or Seistan;

3) Saka Paradraya: Sakas "across the sea" who probably lived north
of the Black Sea and in the Russian steppes, although some groups
reached the Danube Valley in central Europe, Syria, and upper
Mesopotamia.

Chinese historical annals refer to the movements of the Sai (Chinese
designation for Sakas) southwards into northwest of South Asia
following a period of disturbances in Central Asia during the second
century BCE. According to the History of the Former Han (Han shu),
covering the period from 206 BCE to 25 CE: "When, formerly, the
Hsiung-nu [Xiongnu] conquered the Yueh-chih [Yuezhi] the latter
moved west and established themselves as masters of Ta Hsia [Da
xia]; it was in these circumstances that the king of the Sai moved
south and established himself as master of Chi-pin [Jibin]. The Sai
tribes split and separated and repeatedly formed several states."1

The westward migrations of the Yuezhi (see Kushan essay) led to the
emigration of the Sai sometime before 128 BCE, when the Han
ambassador Zhang Qian arrived in Sogdia and Bactria to make an
alliance with the Yuezhi. Saka migrations were not led by a single
king, but were probably gradual movements of acephalous groups to
Jibin, a region apparently corresponding to Gandhara or to northwest
of South Asia in general.

At the beginning of the first century BCE, two or possibly three
groups of Sakas migrated to South Asia from Central Asia:

a) Sakas from the north (perhaps coming from Khotan) took the 'Pamir
routes' through the Karakorum Mountains to Swat and Gandhara;

b) Sakas crossed the Hindu Kush under pressure from the Yuezhi to
mountain valleys of northeastern Afghanistan;

c) Sakas coming from the southwest (Sakastan) took control of modern
Sindh in southern Pakistan.

Maues was one of the earliest Indo-Scythian rulers during the early
first century BCE. His name is preserved in bilingual Greek (Maues)
and Kharosthi (Moa) coins and a Kharosthi inscription from Taxila
(Moga). Maues' origins are obscure: he may have been connected with
the Sakas of Sakastan, or he could have belonged to another branch
of Sakas that migrated from the north through the mountains to
Gandhara and Taxila. In giving himself the title of "King of Kings"
in bilingual Greek and Kharosthi coin legends, Maues imitated
Parthian royal titles. A Kharosthi inscription on a copper plate
from Taxila dated in year 78 of an unspecified era during the reign
of "maharaja Moga the Great" records the establishment of Buddhist
relics by a donor named Patika, the son of an official (ksatrapa)
named Liaka Kusulaka. The inscription demonstrates that Liaka
Kusulaka acknowledged the authority of Maues as his overlord.
Decentralized administration continued after the period of Maues
under loosely affiliated officials who acknowledged a more powerful
leader.

Numismatic sequences and inscriptions show that Azes followed Maues
as the most powerful Indo-Scythian ruler in 58 BCE, a date
corresponding to the beginning of the so-called "Vikrama" era, which
is still used in India. Like his predecessor, Azes adopted the title
of "King of Kings" and iconography of Greek and Indic gods and
goddesses from the coins of contemporary Indo-Greeks. Indo-Greek
power in territories of central Afghanistan and eastern Punjab
rapidly diminished during the second half of the first century BCE
as Indo-Scythians predominated. Azes and his successors Azilises and
Azes II administered Taxila and other areas of Pakistan and
northwestern India through regional rulers with Iranian, Greek, and
Indian titles.

Another branch of Indo-Scythians called the "Western Ksatrapas"
ruled parts of western India from the first century BCE to the end
of the fourth century CE. The Western Ksatrapas vied with the
Satavahanas, another regional dynasty in western India, to control
trade routes between the Deccan Plateau and ports on the west coast.
This area flourished due to lucrative long-distance trade across the
Indian Ocean to the Red Sea and Mediterranean (described in the
Periplus Maris Erythraei). The Western Ksatrapas and other ruling
families and groups of merchants supported Buddhist cave monasteries
clustered along routes through the Western Ghats (see essay on
Buddhism and Trade). Ujjayini in central India was the center of the
Western Ksatrapas from the second to early fourth centuries, until
the Gupta ruler Candragupta II defeated the "Sakas" between ca. 395-
400 CE.

Sakas in control of major commercial centers along the "Northern
Route" (Uttarapatha) and "Southern Route" (Dakshinapatha) encouraged
the development of trade networks and supported religious
institutions. Inscriptions that record the establishment of Buddhist
relics and donations to monasteries in Gandhara, Taxila, Mathura,
and western South Asia show that Sakas, Parthians, and other
Iranians were active lay supporters of the Buddhist community. Saka
support of Buddhism did not preclude their patronage of other
religious traditions or imply that their old beliefs were abandoned.
Iranian elements in architecture, iconography, languages, and many
other spheres of South Asian life around the beginning of the Common
Era are easy to recognize. Concurrent with their impact in South
Asia, migrations of the Sakas during the last two centuries BCE and
the Kushans in first century CE from Central Asia to northwest of
South Asia eventually led to the transmission of Buddhism in the
other direction to Central Asia and East Asia.



(1) Translation of Anthony F.P. Hulsewe in China in Central Asia.
The Early Stage: 125 B.C. - A.D. 23 (An Annotated Translation of
Chapters 61 and 96 of the History of the Former Han Dynasty).
Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1979, pp. 104-5. Pinyin equivalents in brackets
correspond to the Wade-Giles transliterations.

"

I just want to know what the informed folks of this forum and particularly active participants in this thread whose knowledge of our history and anthropology seems vast, as to in their opinion, are these later, let me call them "alleged" migrations real ?

[shiv]

The early Sakas or Scythians are remembered by Greek (e.g. Herodotus, Megatheses, Pliny, Ptolemy)
and Persian historians of antiquity as tall, large framed and fierce warriors who were unrivalled on the
horse. Herodotus from the 5th century BC writes in an eye-witness account of the Scythians:

<snip>

the oldest Rajput geneologies (10th
centuries) do not extend into the northwest's Gandharan Buddhist period (400 B.C. - 900 AD).

<snip>

Sakas or
Sacae (the Su or Sai of the Chinese - B.C. ?), Kushans (the great Yue-Chi (Yuti) of the
Chinese - B.C. 163), Kiddarite or later Kushans (the little Yue-chi of the Chinese - A.D.
450) and Epthalites or White Huns (the Yetha of the Chinese - 470 A.D.).


<snip>

Herodotus reveals that the Scythians as far back as the 5th century B.C.

<snip>

war-like Scythians who settled north-western and
western South Asia in successive waves between 500 B.C. to 500 AD.

<snip>

The oldest Rajputs clans arose much later from earlier Scythic groups; or are of Hun origin (5-6th century AD);

------------
<snip>

According to the History of the Former Han (Han shu),
covering the period from 206 BCE to 25 CE: "

<snip>

At the beginning of the first century BCE, two or possibly three
gro

<snip>
Gupta ruler Candragupta II defeated the "Sakas" between ca. 395-
400 CE.
<snip>

(1) Translation of Anthony F.P. Hulsewe in China in Central Asia.
The Early Stage: 125 B.C. - A.D. 23

I just want to know what the informed folks of this forum and particularly active participants in this thread whose knowledge of our history and anthropology seems vast, as to in their opinion, are these later, let me call them "alleged" migrations real ?

BobbyP ji.
Your question was:

How credible is this historical record about these more recent migrations ?

None of your dates is earlier than 500 BC

Even if the Aryan Invasion theory is 100% correct and all the learned people on here are 100% wrong, it has no impact on any of the points you have made. If you have some new theories about what happened prior to 1200 BC, please post. You are talking about "recent history". There is currently no argument or discussion about more recent events. Perhaps you are on the wrong thread.

[Murugan]

The mixed Scythian hordes that migrated to Drangiana and surrounding regions, later spread further into north and south-west India via the lower Indus valley. Their migration spread into Sovira, Gujarat, Rajasthan and northern India, including kingdoms in the Indian mainland.

We all know about Kushana dynasty that ruled India, Kanishka being the most prominent historical figure of that dynasty.

I am sure you all must have also read extensively about the Huns and the White Huns (they were racially different from each other).

I am also sure you all must have read extensively about the Saka Empire (Western Satraps) who were also known as Indo-Scythians. There is literature such as Annals and Antiquities by Col Tod and lots of others that attribute Indo-Scythian origins to Rajputs and Gurjar-Pratiharas.

All the above guys who went in OIT phase tried their home-coming like R2I?

Now was it an invasion or migration?

If it was 'invasion' - 1) Scythians were trounced at least twice, once by satarknis of Andhra the other time by Chandragupta II. The question arise who were satkarnis and gupta kings originally ? Migrants, invaders or 'Aryans'.

2) Seluckids - we know story of selucus very well. But when they migrated to India from where, from India itself? Selucus as an invader was trounced.

3) Kushans were invaders or migrants?

4) Huns were invaders or migrants? Huns were also defeated by Skandgupt.

Instead of Calling selucus, huns, scythians as invaders we can call them attacker. They were defeated in many case. In many cases like Kushans and Kshatraps of malwas and even huns were assimilated in Bharat.

***

I believe the above discussion is OT to OIT.

'Aryan' 'invasion' and 'Migration' and OIT has nothing to do with the above.

[member_20317]

Bhai log,
If we are ready to assume that the intellect of the man 50000-80000 years back was pretty much the same as it is now, there is no reason to believe they were not capable of some lucid thought. One thing that always struck me was how there is a big big black hole :
1) till the RV in terms of ideation;
2) till the Hindu Epics and Puranas in terms of itihaas; and
3) till say the Abrahmics in terms of history (dates and raja rani wali)

And no worthy historian really worried what could have been present in these early times. They dont have evidence to theorise upon or to rubish, but that can never be taken to mean nothing existed. It is in this light that I would be willing to accept the interpretion of the Rigveda 1:161:13 (Ribhus) provided by Nishesh ji. Seems plausible. At least till the time a better rationale is provided. I mean even if man was a hunter gatherer 26000 ybp they still would need to understand the weather patterns and the appearance of certain heavenly bodies somewhere in the sky.

BobbyP ji, consider this. Indics went out of India way before what you are presenting. Peoples came into India, the ones you are presenting. I came across references to travel by a Rishi in the Puranas to south of Iran. There are a ton of evidence of SIVC artifacts in the whole of Middle East (though very less the other way round). Right uptill 1965, it is said that the Indian currency was used by these middle eastern countries for international transactions. I have also seen claim by either al beruni/ibn batuta who in turn claimed how the Scythians were praised by ancient Indics for their sun worship. Iranians and Indians are exactly two sides of the same coin. Even in the transfer of knowledge from India to Europe the people lyign in between played a crucial part and to this day when Indics are at the bottom of the whole pile our people travel to middle east for their vocational reasons. And inspite of such a background, the Indics dont have much to say about the varied people you mentioned. These peoples themselves dont have much to say for themselves. Scythians distribution has to be seen on the wiki map to understand what I mean. As if both were just self aware but not aware of the other. But somehow something happened and some foreigners have all the views they need to have about these peoples which is now googleable material.

For all I know pre-buddhist era, you could have been been kidnapped from your village and put in Madhyadesa or anywhere on the Dakshinpath or anywhere on the Uttarapath and you would have felt like you are in a neighbouring village or Tehsil. Post Buddhist period too these peoples accepted buddhism. Then a bunch of things happened and what we have now.

BobbyP ji, I am quite certain all the migrations that you mention happened. Now you tell me if you have any reason to believe that India in ancient times was not one of the most populace countries [ok we become a country in 47 ] if not the most populace one. And that these populations that inhabbited these lands did not have an itihaas if not a history. To me what you are mentioning looks like lopsided research and you know what can be said about such lopsided view if it is propagated as research.

[member_23687]

^^^^ All,

I did in know way post this in an attempt to promote Aryan Migration Theory. In what way does my post do that ? As Shiv correctly pointed out, I am talking about migrations which allegedly occured later. I just wanted to know if some of them were made up as well. The reason I posted it on this thread is that the differences in features, looks etc can be attributed to these later migrations. It is not necessary for the Aryan Migration Theory to be correct to justify these differences in looks and features. If these later migrations are real, then it further debunks the Aryan Invasion Theory.

[svinayak]

^^^^ All,

I did in know way post this in an attempt to promote Aryan Migration Theory. In what way does my post do that ? As Shiv correctly pointed out, I am talking about migrations which allegedly occured later. I just wanted to know if some of them were made up as well. The reason I posted it on this thread is that the differences in features, looks etc can be attributed to these later migrations. It is not necessary for the Aryan Migration Theory to be correct to justify these differences in looks and features. If these later migrations are real, then it further debunks the Aryan Invasion Theory.

Few things.
These are all British authors from colonial times. They are suspect and at this stage they are dismissed.
The numbers of these so called migrants into India is insignificant to change significantly the largest populated region in the world in that period.

Even earlier period the population was so large that there could insignifant impact on the demographics

[member_20317]

^^^^ All,

I did in know way post this in an attempt to promote Aryan Migration Theory. In what way does my post do that ? As Shiv correctly pointed out, I am talking about migrations which allegedly occured later. I just wanted to know if some of them were made up as well. The reason I posted it on this thread is that the differences in features, looks etc can be attributed to these later migrations. It is not necessary for the Aryan Migration Theory to be correct to justify these differences in looks and features. If these later migrations are real, then it further debunks the Aryan Invasion Theory.

BobbyP ji, just to clear up the matter. I am not characterising your post as supportive of AIT/AMT.

I was in my humble way trying to reach out to you and proposing a 'smooth uncrystallised version of civilization in these areas'. The areas you are focusing on were for the most part the 'Uttarpath' which if I am not wrong included Takhsashila. Today the whole of 'Uttarpath' is lying in tatters consumed by more then one wave of emperialistic tendencies. The writers/theorists/sources that you have pointed out are regarded as best current knowledge by the establishment. But surely you do recognise how spotty their stand is and while that is not an offence by itself but to treat it as 'complete wisdom' would in my POV be falicious. And as rightly pointed out by Shivji these later migrations would be off topic in OIT vs. AIT debate.

Also regarding the 'differences in features' you point out would best be understood using the arguements that Brihaspatiji et al had with ManishH ji earlier in this very thread regarding genetics and environment.

Hope I clarified my position.

[RoyG]

[RajeshA]

BobbyP ji,

you are in the wrong thread. You may wish to discuss these recent migrations, invasions, infusions, cultural exchanges, etc. in History thread in GDF. No doubt they are interesting occurrences, but these events would be better discussed elsewhere.

Thank you!

[Virendra]

Nilesh Ji, I have a small OT question if others manning the thread don't mind. You have assessed P V Vartak's Mbh dating conclusionin in your book.
The man had claimed to have done astral travel to Mars (and not much of astral stuff came from him after that). Your thoughts?

Regards,
Virendra

[shiv]

^^^^ All,

I did in know way post this in an attempt to promote Aryan Migration Theory. In what way does my post do that ? As Shiv correctly pointed out, I am talking about migrations which allegedly occured later. I just wanted to know if some of them were made up as well. The reason I posted it on this thread is that the differences in features, looks etc can be attributed to these later migrations. It is not necessary for the Aryan Migration Theory to be correct to justify these differences in looks and features. If these later migrations are real, then it further debunks the Aryan Invasion Theory.

Although I have put in a lot of recent reading about some of the things you posted, I have been focused, as is this thread, on events before 1500 BC. If those dates change, others could change too, but we need to take up each individual case.

My only objection to your post was the reference to "voluminous data". Data yes. Proof? Needs rechecking. Some of those events are based on very flimsy evidence IIRC

[Atri]

Nilesh Ji, I have a small OT question if others manning the thread don't mind. You have assessed P V Vartak's Mbh dating conclusionin in your book.
The man had claimed to have done astral travel to Mars (and not much of astral stuff came from him after that). Your thoughts?

Regards,
Virendra

Its not my place and although you haven't asked me this, I will weigh in.. Having met Vartak on few occasions, I sense that he is different.

There is no way to verify his claims of astral travel. Either one believes OR one does not. The depth of man is determined by quality of thoughts he can churn out. Vartak's commentary on Upanishads, Patanjali Yogsutra and Geeta, is marvelous and extremely "rooted". Furthermore, he can (to some extent, like Savarkar) correlate Dharma, Artha and Kaama with Moksha.. Most of the other commentators focus only on Moksha aspect. Reading his thoughts and commentary and his methodical approach towards every verse and every word in every verse, one is definitely convinced that he has put in tremendous amount of "thought" and "experience".. One knows difference when an "Anubhavi" person speaks and when a "theoretical scholar" speaks.

I do not KNOW whether it (astral travel) is true OR not.. And like Nasadiya Sukta says, there is no way to "Know" until you know.. I have never experienced anything like this in my life yet, so until I do that personally, I won't know... He says that he has experienced it.. Until I experience it, it is my duty to be skeptical towards this observation. But since I haven't experienced it, I wouldn't call it bonkers because I definitely know that I am not accomplished (Siddha Artha).. And I sense that he "might be"..

A typical Indic answer to this would be what Krishna told Arjuna in 18th chapter in the end

इति ते ज्ञानमाख्यातं गुह्याद्गुह्यतरं मया ।
विमृश्यैतदशेषेण यथेच्छसि तथा कुरु ।।

- I have given you all the Guhya (secret, deep may be) knowledge that I possesed, Oh Arjuna.. Now think over it and do what you feel is right...

[member_23687]

Murugan,

I accept your post and have learnt from it.

RaviG,

I thank you for your answer too. I am sorry, but I will end the discussion of this particular period right here in this thread and if necessary explore this issue in other appropriate thread. I learnt from your thread too.

Acharya,

I thank you for pointing out that these migrations did not in any major way effect the balance of population stock. I did not know that.

Shiv,

Thanks for your response. I had started off my question by stating that there is "voluminous" data and I was just wondering how much of it is credible. You responded very directly in your last post that, yes there is data but credibility of some of it is in question.

[Virendra]

Atri Ji thanks a lot for your response. May be not astral travel. May be he can take his soul to the next room and see what color shirt the other man is wearing?
Anyway, I fear I'll derail the thread so will not chase this here.

[Nilesh Oak]

Atri Ji & Virendra Ji,

Atri, Ji. Thank you for pitching in. I will only add to what you already wrote.

(RajeshA ji, I know this is not relevant to OIT...allows us small (hopefully) digression)

Virendra Ji.. we should explore it in the same fashion as method of science. Individually, what I THINK is no significance. Carl Sagan had commented...everyone asks him what he THINKS of UFO (or does he BELIEVE in UFO) and no one asks him ...what evidence we have to think UFO exists (or not exist).

Vartak claims that in Samadhi he went to Mars, Jupiter (and to Saturn...but need to verify if he said that).

He wrote down (after coming out of samadhi) the descriptions of what he saw/experienced and ensured (after lot of ridicule/rejections) to get his work published ...BEFORE NASA reports came from Viking and other missions to Mars and Jupiters. He made some 20-22 specific observations and claims that 20 out of say 22 match with NASA findings.

At this time, we don't have another indepdanat reference (calibration standard, Gold standard) to test Vartak or NASA. So, we should test them against each other...(I have done that, but will need to discuss on anotehr relevant thread). After that though, we have to still make our own conclusions... as brilliantly stated by Atri ji.

[Nilesh Oak]

Virendra Ji,

The subject you have brought up is facinating (at least to me). Do you know of relevant thread on BRF where we can discuss it?

[RajeshA]

Nilesh Oak ji, Virendra ji, Atri ji,

'Astrology,Numerology,Palmistry,and Paranormal Sciences' could be the appropriate thread for discussing astral travel.

[fanne]

And Nilesh ji you will find the usual suspects in that thread as well!!

[ManishH]

Last time Mrigashirsha nakshatra and point of summer solstice (beginning of Monsoon) coincided were during 23000 BC. (RajeshA ji, I hope you are taking note of this.). This reference, in addition to that of Fall of Abhijit, alludes to estblished nakshatra system (knowlege of solstices, equinoxes, etc.) going back to (at least) 23000 BC!
...
The relevant verse of Rigveda 1:161:13 (Ribhus)

सुषुप्वांस रभवस्तदप्र्छतागोह्य क इदं नो अबूबुधत |
शवानं बस्तो बोधयितारमब्रवीत सम्वत्सर इदमद्या वयख्यत ||

13 When ye had slept your fill, ye Ṛbhus, thus ye asked, O thou whom naught may hide, who now hath wakened us?
The goat declared the hound to be your wakener. That day, in a full year, ye first unclosed our eyes.
...

And if 'Shwan' of this Sukta of Rigveda is taken to mean Canis Major (Sirius) and/or Canis Minor (Procyon), then we will have to push this time (watch your eyes RajeshA ji) further in antiquity to 26000 BC!

1. Canis majoris has never been on the ecliptic in the past 100k years, so it is torrid imagination to say RV 1.161.13 talks of observing "summer solstice" in Canis Majoris.

This figure shows that inclination of the ecliptic has only varied within 4degs in the past 100k years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eclip ... ziobek.PNG

Whereas today, the ecliptic latitude of α-Canis Majoris (Sirius) = -39.6degs and Procyon = -15.97degs !

Not only is your interpretation astronomically unsound. Even philologically, it's pure fantasy to see random instance of 'śvān' in ṛgveda to mean Canis Majoris (which BTW, is called lubdhaka in indian astronomy).

2. There is zero basis of associating ṛbhu-s with monsoon. Vedic tradition names are three ṛbhu-s who are sometimes collectively used to refer to the three seasons (agni,sūrya,candramā). Why are you conveniently picking one season when the plural ṛbhavaḥ is used here ? I'd like to know how your fantasy dating changes if any other season is picked ?

3. Where is the reference to "summer solstice" in RV 1.161.13 ? It's the height of fiction to associate ṛbhu-s with monsoon and/or summer solstice. If anything, the 12 days when ṛbhu-s took rest (RV 4.33.7) points to intercalary days. Amongst the varied systems of intercalation in Indian calendars, they are conventionally inserted before winter solstice so that the new year could begin on winter solstice. See Abhyankar, "A search for the earliest vedic calendar", IJHS 28(1) 1993 and 40.1 2005.

If one is willing to do creative interpretation of vedic texts, one can see almost any astronomical datapoint to fit ones' favourite dates. Already dates from ~3000BC to ~23000 BC are floating around.

Good luck convincing scientific community about bronze age society, chariots and horse domestication in the Pleistocene!

You have assessed P V Vartak's Mbh dating conclusionin in your book.
The man had claimed to have done astral travel to Mars (and not much of astral stuff came from him after that). Your thoughts?

Flights of fancy - it's a pattern.

[chaanakya]

ManishH ji has raised some important points. I have two questions, rather simple ones.

1. How this fits into Geological timescale?
2. How it fits into evolutionary theory of natural selection and origin of species?

Perhaps one needs drastic changes in assumptions and axioms on which current view of cosmos or Universe is based.

[Nilesh Oak]

ManishH,

(1) If you would have noticed the beginning of my first email on this subject (Ribhus) where my assumption was clearly underlined (assuming this is true), you would not have gone on your own flight of fancy!

(2) I never said Canis Major is on eclipitic. I also mentioned Canis Minor (Procyon) which you forgot to analyze.

(3) What is your point in copying me interpreation of Tilak (from Orion) in order to somehow Prove (!) your interpreation of Ribhus?

(4) Go check various meanigns of Ribhus in Rigveda (and also in the context they appear) in multiple places. I do not bother responding to loaded questions.

You ask...Why are you conveniently picking one season when the plural ṛbhavaḥ is used here ? I'd like to know how your fantasy dating changes if any other season is picked ?

I was going to answer your first question (good question, BTW). The word 'fantasy' of second question tells me you are not ready for serious obejective debate and too high on emotions, whatever your reasons for them.

(5) For your point in (3) of your message, go back to my assumption (it is underlined).

If you are looking for creative intepretations, you hit the wrong person. They is no dearth of them. Leave me alone with my ignorance.

I agree with you. I do see a pattern.

[RajeshA]

ManishH ji,

welcome back! Some posters had started wondering and you were missed.

Good luck convincing scientific community about bronze age society, chariots and horse domestication in the Pleistocene!

I think the general view is that Rig Veda was not written in a day. Its hearing/composition spanned many centuries and as most here believe, several millennia. So not all references from Rig Veda need to be adjudged as having originated after the domestication of the horse or the development of the chariot.

As you would be aware the Arabian horse (the one with 34 ribs, as in Rig Veda) is considered to have been domesticated at the latest around 9000 YBP. Not all of Rig Veda need to have been heard/composed after that!

At the moment, Indologists, especially those practicing in the West, are not really considered scientists. They still have much to do before they can be absolved of simply being somewhat more sophisticated ideological flag-bearers of European racial theorists from the 19th century!

[RajeshA]

Nilesh Oak ji,

the word "fantasy" is from the old Wit-mer school. There are several other phrases like "weekend reading", etc. Most of us have stopped being unnecessarily perturbed by such ungracious remarks!

ManishH ji has in the past been very helpful to the BRF community on this thread in understanding the rhetoric, argumentation and bottlenecks in thinking among Western Indologists. In fact, I would go as far as to say, that he has made the single-biggest contribution is raising interest in this otherwise dull topic!